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Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 28 2018, 17:21 PM 

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Joined: 08 Oct 2012

I am simply opening a discussion about the class, and about certain features. I do not think this will lead to any changes to the class, and I'm okay with that. I am however very curious to know what people are thinking.

Saya's recently been changed to warlock. It's fun so far! Which is what I was after, so it's great. The powergamer in me however started to do number crunching, and I came to conclusions and realizations that there are some pretty deep flaws with the warlock class - of which some solutions might already be available and not needing of any scripting.
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Assuming Rambo, a character with 40 charisma for the calculations (which is very high and dedicated)

Spell DC:
Quote:
- Spell DC for status effects works as follows for warlock : 10 + charisma modifier + spell level (highest is 8 )
- Spell DC for reflex saves to avoid damage on Doom and Sphere shape is : 10 + cha mod + shape level (highest is also 8 )

* This means, Rambo will have status effects ranging from 31 to 38 DC.
* This means Rambo's targets need to beat reflex save of 31 to 38 DC if they want to take half damage (when using certain shapes).
* The warlock blast does not seem to trigger spellcraft (advantage)
* The warlock blast DC cannot be increased through spell focus feats (disadvantage)
* The warlock touch AB rolls do not work off charisma and use dexterity instead
* Unlike in Nwn2, you cannot take improved crit / weapon focuses feats in ranged touch attack

Assuming Jim, a character with 30 in all three saves for the calculations (which is not -that- high)

Jim will thus need to roll 8 to ignore all the potential status effects, IF he doesn't use immunities (mind blank, freedom, negative energy renders -all- the blasts' side effects void I believe).


The DC for the effect is decent, but requires a 40 charisma character against a character that doesn't have more than 30 in saves AND that doesn't run immunity effects such as freedom or negative energy protection or mind blank. Bards do not have acccess to epic spells, nor do they have that impressive spells to rely on. Warlocks cannot use curse song or bard song to close the gap; they rely on their blasts.
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Warlock Blast:
Quote:
Warlocks deal up to 15D6 dmg with their blasts. The enemy target however can roll spell resistance to void said damage, and can either roll a successive touch attack defensive roll to avoid the damage or roll reflex to void half of the damage (depends on the actual shape used).

A warlock can only ever use ONE blast per round. The acid one should ignore the spell resistance check.


Warlocks can deal consistent aoe damage, granted that they remain alive to cast the blasts. As such, Rambo will not have that high of an AC, but his damage dealing potential is fine. It is however not outstanding either, as it can miss.

--------------

Warlock Class Features:
Quote:
Warlocks normally would get some class features upon leveling, including energy damage resist of 2 sources, as well as up to 7 physical damage resistance, an activated ability that gives high but temporary regen, and a craft item feat. However, on Amia, you can only get those by sacrificing item slots, OR by using a feat and request a replacement (I think).



My Observation:
Quote:
It seems to me like warlocks have a lot going against them, and very little advantage or boon to speak of. The DCs are only ever effective IF you go all out on the charisma side, and you do so at the cost of having a lower touch AB and AC (since that works off dexterity, not charisma), which can often be partly voided for half damage or just resisted through spell resistance.


Conclusion / Discussion:
Quote:
I am questioning the idea of limiting their class features. Normal warlocks would not have the bard spell book, but they would have invokations, some of which are actually quite powerful. However, as it stands, I do not see why the class features listed on the warlock information page are not given to warlocks -or at least partly given.

Here are some questions to potentially get the discussion started

1- Do you think it would be gamebreaking for a warlock to be allowed to request ONE of these class features for free? (given on an item, without counting as mythal potential)

e.g: Rambo gains Epic Damage Reduction II Or +6 / soak 5 maybe to represent that DR on his cloak of forti+5, cloak he never takes off. OR, he gains 10 fire / 10 cold resist on his cloak.

2- Do you think it would be gamebreaking for a warlock to receive all of those feats for free?

e.g: he gets equivalent feats / effects on one of his items (made untradable / unsellable), OR they are given a ioun stone with the defensive passives?

3- Do you think something else should be done to improve warlocks?

_________________
Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526


Last edited by Mushidoz on Thu, Jan 24 2019, 16:18 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 28 2018, 18:21 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

Warlock never was suppised to be balanced like, or as, a full class. That's the reason the emulation is so lackluster, to be honest. It's simply a request by one (?) player, that took a while to finish, and finally was opened up to the public. The alternative would have been that nobody is allowed to use it.
The problem with adding those abilities is that they either require a custom item that would need to be very well documented and removed on a rebuild, or a hak, which isn't possible currently.

Aside from that, those DC numbers are similar to what any other caster would achieve. Yes, he might get a slight bonus, but a wizard or sorc can run out of spells, whereas a warlock can blast all day every day. The times I've seen warlocks, in events or leveling, they've been really amazing at killing all the trash. To the point that they sort of broke the event with all the AoE. Hell, even a reflex save at 38 DC is tough to get through, now that evasion items aren't really that good. Many people don't do reflex, because it's not really worth the investment anymore. Especially if reflex isn't counted, I'd even say that need to be fixed, because that makes warlocks even more powerful.

The fact that touch AB goes off of dex and not cha hardly matters, because touch attacks are -really- easy to land.


In general, I don't think warlock really needs to be touched. I've seen them do really well, and the numbers even explain why they do. If you want to play a more powerful class, maybe 'warlock', aka the slight bard reskin, isn't the class for you. Especially if multiclassed, there's some powerful combinations, and I don't think any sort of buff is neccessary, unless you would want to put down their AoE damage a bit, which seems pretty powerful to me. A sorc can achieve similar per round (maybe a bit higher) bit will run out of spells far before the 15 minute rest cycle is up. Warlock don't have that.


 
      
Mushidoz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 28 2018, 18:40 PM 

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I think their offensive is okay, yeah. It has ups, it has downs.. it's fine.

However, I don't think their offensive capability justifies the class not having some of the features listed on the page not to be given to them, especially since they are usually quite minor. Giving them one of many of those wouldn't make the class more offensive, nor would it push their defensive power to unspoken heights of broken-ness.

- Damage resistance of 10 in two elements of your choice.
- Damage resistance of up to 7 Versus physical attacks (I would have suggested emulating this via +6 / 5 soak)
- Magic item craft (aka, craft wand or craft potion)
- Temporary regen boost

None of those seem particularly gamebreaking. Personally? I would allow a warlock the possibility of requesting a custum untradable ioun stone to get either damage resistance of 10 in two energy sources OR +6/5 soak, along with the ioun stone effect of their choice (granted that they would need to own said stone first). For example, Saya has a +1 AC stone. She could request +1 AC + one of the two defensive feats and that'd be it.

_________________
Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526


 
      
robbi320
 
PostPosted: Fri, Dec 28 2018, 18:59 PM 



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Joined: 04 Jan 2015

I don't think scripting new Ioun stones is as simple as you make it sound. And it would still leave the problem of needing to remove it after a rebuild.

Aside from that, Warlocks actually have some really good defense. Unless that was fixed (and I'd heard it was semi-intentional, and thus not fixed) you can basically get a free +10 AC from ImpExpertise. Your AC is absolutely amazing with that. 55 is just about the standard tumbletank armor. You can have haste on there, and mage armor. That's 60 AC with just normal bard equip. On top of that, 10 AC from ImpExpertise, leaves you at 70, plus whatever small things you have, like Iouns or something, your AC is huge. Most builds can't even achieve that. And you want some free resistances on there as well?!


 
      
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