AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - [OOC] Non-Drow in the Edonil Vanguard: your input

I've been fine tuning this for quite a while now and felt that you guys should have some say in this because if pulled off it'll be a benefit for all of us. I'm seeking input from both Drow and Non-Drow players and DMs alike. This is your time to have your say.

My aim is to suggest the implement the following to the Vanguard:

* Any Race except those listed below may apply to join the Edonil Vanguard.

* Non-Drow characters will be treated fairly on a case by case basis during their assessment by either the Lord Commander or Herald for their merits to ensure they are compatible for the Vanguard. The screening will include the following:

- Their skillsets
- Their deity of worship if they have one (Underdark Deities are prefered, however any deity can be worshipped provided its compatible with Lolth. We can't be accepting flag waving Tomites, Eilistraeeans or Corellon worshippers afterall!)
- Their character's attitude and their capability to work as part of a larger team
- Their reasons for wanting to join the Vanguard

For Drow characters, the screening will not be so lengthy but they will still be screened. Being Drow is not an instant acceptance into the Vanguard.

* Only the Lord Commander has the right to reject a member's application to the Vanguard, both Drow or Non-Drow, based on their screening and compatibility. Heralds and the Queen's Whip may not reject an application: they must pass on their assessment to the Lord Commander ((or in his absence, to the Herald of Vigilance for DM input)) if they feel an applicant is deemed not fit to join the Vanguard. This should only happen in exceptional circumstances: we wish to be as inviting as possible, not an exclusive club.

* None of the following races will be accepted into the Vanguard. Ever:

- Surface Elves of any variety
- Surface Dwarves of any variety
- Half Elves of any surface variety (Half Drow are the only exception. They can apply)
-Aasimars of any variety.

Tieflings or Genasi of these races will not be immediately rejected, however they will be more thoroughly screened for compatibility. This also applies for Gnomes and Halflings. In these cases, the Lord Commander is encouraged to do the screening where possible, and seek DM input if they are unsure on making a fair decision.

For non-Drow applicants, they will receive the following benefits for joining the Vanguard:

* After 30 days (1 month) of activity, they will be given citizen status equal to that of a commoner Drow Male. This will give them the following benefits over non citizens:

- They can travel more freely around Edonil, not being restricted to just the trade area (they still cannot enter the Temple, or Noble Houses without permission however, just like with male Drow)
- They must still bow to female Drow, however do not need to bow to male Drow unless their rank requires them to,
- As citizens, they may be accepted as Heralds in the Vanguard, but not as the Lord Commander (without exceptional circumstance) and finally,
- They may apply to join a Noble House (Matrons have the freedom to either accept or deny their application as usual)

I wish to implement the above for the following reasons:

* I believe that there should not be the "us and them" attitude that splits this Underdark playerbase down the middle. I've been on both sides, having Drow and Non-Drow characters and I believe everyone should be given a fair chance and welcomed equally as players regardless of what race their character is. My aim is to set up a system to help facilitate this, whilst still retaining that inter-racial rivalry by promoting tolerance, not acceptance.

* Amia's playerbase is not getting any larger: I know people like their Drow cities in Menzoberanzen's image, but we just don't have the numbers anymore to facilitate this or support its infrastructure for prolonged periods of time. For example, 4 weeks ago we were struggling to maintain 2 academies and a temple, as well as having more then 3 - 5 active members per Noble house that weren't alternate characters of some description (Vilrath excluded. They're doing rather well for themselves at the moment) with just Drow alone. Even though we are changing Edonil by consolidating into smaller, condensed organisations, an increase in players will no doubt assist us in maintaining a more active presence.

* Non Drow toons can fill the gaps Drow toons are struggling to maintain: we've not had any active Drow warriors for months and at the moment, the Magthere has 0 members. Non-Underdarkers can fill these roles easily; some races are better suited to it due to mechanics then Drow are.

* More players means more perspectives: Two perspectives is better then one afterall. The more perspectives there are, the more input there is as well. And finally,

* More players means more plots: With a more active playerbase, stuff will get done. Players will be more motivated and as a result the DMs will be more motivated. The cobwebs can finally be blown off all those shelved or discarded plots that have stagnated due to inactivity or lack of attention. Shit will start to get done.

If correctly implemented, this will be a benefit for every Underdarker player out there. Although still a predominantly Drow settlement, Edonil can start to become more of a major Underdark hub with a more active playerbase. For the Drow, its great because we can start getting our plots rolling with greater numbers. For the non-Drow its also beneficial, because you won't have to spend your logged in time alone.

But, I need your input as the playerbase, either by PM or posted below, in the following format:

* I agree / Disagree with this implementation.

* Why: (insert paragraphs here)

I'm encouraging comments of both positive and contructive criticism in nature, but be warned that this thread is not a debate. I wish to keep a very tight grip on this thread to prevent it going off the rails. The DMs have my permission to delete or alter any comments of a non-constructive nature, any comments of finger pointing or any posts relating to "it's your fault because" rants to keep this thread on track.

So... your opinions?

No. Absolutely not. Unless Lolth is indeed dead.

Thank you Fierene for your stern stance on the matter. I have recorded such in my notes and will use such data for future information. If you change your mind or have any suggestions or alterations to my idea, please feel free to PM them to me.

As for everyone else, are there any other opinions or input? Suggestions? Alterations? This is your time to speak up.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

No. Absolutely not. Unless Lolth is indeed dead.

Going to have to second this one, but I'll give a reason

*Still luv you Fi muaaa!!*

The Vanguard is supposed to represent the elite guard for the City. Its my opinion that Drow would not entrust this sort of thing to a 'lesser' race. And my 'lesser' race, I think we all know that this includes any race that isn't purely drow

The formation of the Vanguard is a great idea for Edonil as it consolidates the city services and provides a natural vehicle in which players can 'bump' into and interact where separate services might otherwise.

That being said, the general dumbing down of what has become traditional Lolthite Drow interaction is at the center of a major divide. It is likely that the trend to make evil drow just as huggly as any other boring race will make the one or two holdouts leave as well. ... Never-mind, they already chimed in.

The pity is really that Lolthite drow have been killed off, not by the self righteous elves or bands of crusading paladins, but by other players that could give a shit about RP and exploring a different world. That any player should have to change their RP because of a few words that only take a few minutes to learn, or be inclusive when there is absolutely no RP reason to do so? For shame.

To point, there is a reason for the actions that any intelligent creature takes. That very few people can be bothered to understand them is not sufficient reason to radically alter the very fabric that Lolthite drow society operates upon, sorry.

Analog Kid wrote:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

No. Absolutely not. Unless Lolth is indeed dead.

Going to have to second this one, but I'll give a reason

*Still luv you Fi muaaa!!*

The Vanguard is supposed to represent the elite guard for the City. Its my opinion that Drow would not entrust this sort of thing to a 'lesser' race. And my 'lesser' race, I think we all know that this includes any race that isn't purely drow

+1

Nice, concise and spot on.

I'll say that I understand why Malios wants to try, and even applaud the reason. But I just don't think this is the answer. Not if you want any sort of "real" drow RP.

I sort of agree.

I know I haven't been playing long and my opinion might not be worth much but having come from a dead server myself, I applaud your effort to bring people together IG. And guilds/group interest that shoves people together in the same areas IS the best way. Becoming a loner on a server full of loners just snowballs on itself and that makes strict adherence to the "drow art better than thou" roleplay almost worthless if... you have no one left to RP it with. Even if the Edonil Vanguard reformation is unanimously shot down, I don't see why you can't find some other way to create a separate guild, with all the facets of your above-listed idea, that is UD and evil-based, that accepts drow, yet somehow unites a common underdark interest.... hoping the DMs help with that too. You'll have to get really creative! Underdark Defenders? Um.. Underdark Explorers? I'm not so good at this

I would suggest implementation of Non Drow within the city under House rule. Let the Matrons control their pets, and pay the price when they don't.

Surprised this came up again. It was tried before to a very limited extent, those who werent drow who chose to join in and were willing to behave were treated so badly it turned ugly. Drow are Drow and dont mix well with others, they dominate others, and each other. I saw the previous postings about non drow serving in the city guard and wondered how it got by the temple.

Nah its not gonna happen, at least I don't see non-drow ever becoming full members of the Vanguard.

I do see some flexibility however for an "Associate" status, that non-drow can offer their services in exchange for limited acceptance by the drow. Perhaps some other perks given on a case-by-case basis. While Associates can 'profit' and get some degree of acceptance, they'll never be fully integrated into drowdom. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing at all, it is what makes it fun that non-drow can use the Vanguard as an avenue to negotiate their way to survive/prosper in drow society.

You guys (the players) are ultimately responsible for what and what doesn't happen in Edonil in regards to it's structure. We (the DMs) have given you guys carte blanche to do as you wish for the most part. I will, however, say this in response:

If non-drow are given an even footing socially within a Lolthite city, Lolth will most likely not be happy with it.

That said, proceed as you will.

Zrae will fight tooth and nail to not allow this to happen, just saying.

That said, as a player I cannot agree. I can, however, agree to finding a balance! I've said it before and I'll say it now that I love seeing drow and other races 'work' together. It's honestly not as hard as it sounds (Zrae actually took a commission of an altar from a duergar and was pleased with the result, actually giving him a bonus for the excellent craftsmanship). I have done it in the past and I know it can be done: drow/non-drow UD RP can flourish!

Now, there's no way putting non-drow on equal footing will happen (like ainjyll kinda poked at) however it's entirely possible to form a secondary group of non-drow under the direction of the Vanguard. That would promote RP as well (and, really, drow/non-drow RP doesn't have to be abusive and extreme so long as toes are not stepped on IC and drow are not insulted. Then it's all hell lol). I know there is a solution that will work, and I also liked Gremin's suggestion, we just have to work together OOC and IC to discover it!

I dislike these feeler topics. Why not have your PCs work it out ICLY? It'll be a lot more fun to see some males striving to throw off the shackles of matriarchy and the females doing their best to stomp down on rebellion, don't you think? You're drow be at one anothers throats ICLY, don't predetermine your character's ambition OOCLY

Silent2001 wrote:

I dislike these feeler topics. Why not have your PCs work it out ICLY? It'll be a lot more fun to see some males striving to throw off the shackles of matriarchy and the females doing their best to stomp down on rebellion, don't you think? You're drow be at one anothers throats ICLY, don't predetermine your character's ambition OOCLY

This.

PS. My characters have taken part in Vhaerunites having thier fun at the expense of noble house members. They have employed humans, tieflings, gnomes, hin, duergar, svir and orog to the mutual satisfaction of all involved. And not once did my Lolthite drow characters have to water down their Lolthiteness. It can be done ICly and it's fun.

Silent2001 wrote:

It'll be a lot more fun to see some males striving to throw off the shackles of matriarchy and the females doing their best to stomp down on rebellion, don't you think? You're drow be at one anothers throats ICLY, don't predetermine your character's ambition OOCLY

It's common knowledge that if the males decided to overthrow the females, they wouldn't be able to prevent it from happening without DM NPC intervention. The problem with doing so is that there'd be no more "Lolthite" RP, so we bite our tongues!

Jokes aside, I assure you that this decision was entirely my ambition as a player to gauge the response of attempting to bring the playerbase as a whole loosely together. The playerbase as a whole is what I think of first and foremost, not the fluff of Menzoberanzen and I saw this as a way of attempting to fix one of the larger OOC issues most players complain about when it comes to the Underdark: loneliness. Both Drow toons in Edonil and non-Drow toons in Underport/L'Obsul suffer from it after all.

It's an extreme way of conducting business yes... and if it doesn't fly for the Drow community who are most directly affected by this, it doesn't fly. But, noone can blame me for not trying to do something. I'll review my long term ideas and think of something else.

Oh I definitely appreciate the effort, Malios, and I support something being done to encourage more UD RP. I just don't think this would work lorewise. Now, if the non-Drow were lower ranked than all the Drow, that would certainly work (I think). It's just about fine-tuning and finding a good balance. There's plenty of drow players (if not all of us) that was willing to make it work IC and OOC while still being lore compliant

"Lore Compliance" is highly subjective mate: Menzoberanzen and Ched Nasad are the most well published versions of Drow culture but they are only two cities of many, representing a sheer minority and extremity of the Drow as a race. The lore is only as black and white as one makes it to be, which is why I cringe whenever I hear the words "true Drow RP" referred to in that specific context.

But, I understand implicitly that R.A Salvatore's novels and Ed Greenwood's "Drow of the Underdark" is what Edonil, Ultrinnan and Udos were based off and as a player it's my job to adapt to that, regardless of my viewpoints.

For now, I'll continue to do what I do best: adapt and go back to the drawing boards.

Oh I just mean the lore of Drow thinking all races are lesser than them. For that alone they wouldn't trust a lot of things to non-drow races, plus Lolth would likely kill them all for doing it XD

As a side note, there has been considerable participation in drow affairs by several dwarves, goblins, kobolds, and an Orog. Other races are permitted, and in the case of the orog, even given protection and authority by the Temple due to outstanding RP and the ability to duel drow warriors while reciting poetry. Something particularly valued by both Velthura and the former Ul'yathtallar apparently. So, it's not that others are not allowed, they are just not capable of the RP needed for those positions. But those that are provide stellar RP, I can only hope that one or two come back and show the rest how to play intelligently and honestly, without trying to superimpose some sort of fairness on an inherently unfair society.

For Malios, being one of the few capable of out of the box RP, I have faith you will find an amiable solution in time.

From my perspective: It should really be handled IC.

Our faction is weak, 50% are secretly heretics, maybe the city for terms of survival should open to non-drow pc as a possibility to be handled IC'ly, without ooc bounds- drow are survivalist and it might revive the faction a bit.

I find this to be a great idea, even if my character would rather die (or just leave, really) instead of working together with lessers.

Adhering strictly to lore has worked greatly for us for the last couple years, hasn't it? Two destroyed cities, dwindling playerbase, lots of pseudo-heretics (I say pseudo because they realize they love Lolth once things pick back in the UD again) around, etc.
But once someone suggests something out of the box that could solve a few of the problems, while giving lore a swift kick in the balls... people are against it on an OOC level?

Yes, I'm sure Lolth would be much happier with seeing one of her cities become utterly insignificant in the grand scheme of things instead of deviating a little from the norm but gaining power from it. *Shrug!*
In the end, it's up to the players... but seeing how many of us have alts (or are they mains by now?) in the surface because of how dull the UD can be most of the time... yeah, carry on with the status quo.

That's why I suggested finding a good middle ground. Dwindling player-base or not, there's no excuse to have washed out and watered down RP. That just cheapens the fact that you are playing a drow. Middle ground is what to strive for, something that will get everyone involved in a proper fashion. Or, just put the onus on the players to get their asses in gear and actually do something useful.

Hell, most of the reason for things being slow is because people are getting busy with other stuff. Personally I'm always available to play Zrae unless I have planned something for the day already.

To clarify:
Someone mentioned it before and I will agree completely; people play drow because of the lore. To alter that would be to ruin that reason. I'm not, and I doubt anyone else is, advocating for a Mezz-clone. We don't have the population for that, for one, and that would be a bit too extreme for some people. I like the quasi-atmosphere of Edonil, it works well for the fact that we are playing a game, not writing a book. That's what I want to keep while still attracting more people. It's possible, for sure.

Nakasha wrote:

Our faction is weak, 50% are secretly heretics, maybe the city for terms of survival should open to non-drow pc as a possibility to be handled IC'ly, without ooc bounds- drow are survivalist and it might revive the faction a bit.

ROFL...

The number is actually closer to 90%, and 100% in Tinnerai. Part of the problem is that it's not really all that secret.

Wait, are we talking about 'drow' the faction or 'Tinnerai' as a faction? Tinnerai is dead, the heretics ran to the surface ;p

Most of Edonil is, actually, d'Vilrath and also My'afin :p A few in others and in non-houses as well. Do'Virr was kicked out, so they don't count in that.

*Cof* Ran is such an ugly & inappropriate word :twisted:

Anatida wrote:

*Cof* Ran is such an ugly & appropriate word :cry:

FTFY

lol

Naivatkal wrote:

Wait, are we talking about 'drow' the faction or 'Tinnerai' as a faction? Tinnerai is dead, the heretics ran to the surface ;p

Most of Edonil is, actually, d'Vilrath and also My'afin :p A few in others and in non-houses as well. Do'Virr was kicked out, so they don't count in that.

BryI don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. If you are looking for ransom, I can tell you I don't have money. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let my house go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you.

It took me until the second sentence to get it. Very nice
(besides, it's not our fault your house was all heretics! Blame Anatida

)

I never see other drow anymore!

You'd see more drow on if this was an IC topic of discussion I'm sure. Locking away.

[OOC] Non-Drow in the Edonil Vanguard: your input

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