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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:38 PM 

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I can not agree to allowing any are in the game where one player (a) and PvP another player (b), but that player (b) can not PvP (a). It doesn't work like that for any other area.

I've seen numerous DMs working in Bendir Dale, as many as three at a time before, so I don't believe that Bendir Dale "never has any any DM oversite.

If someone is an ass and is breaking the rules, screen shot it and report it to the DMs so they can handle it. That's what you're supposed to do.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:44 PM 

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This is how I see it. Banned folks are free to use the carts we won't stop them but lingering on Dale lands is a no no and you should expect a reaction, as it states on our Bendir Dale Law sign our jurisdiction is that entire area. NOw as for the PVP aspect yes it will happen but doing so and then lets say trying to run off with our corpses or what not you can expect the guards to react. Basically what we are trying to get at is don't meta game the guards just standing there after you beat one of us down, expect them to try and stop you afterr the pvp fight is done, so basically if there is a fight there is no way you can just stick around and not expect something to happen from the guards. Aside from all that there is nothing wrong with pvp outside the walls just keep in mind that if you do want to pvp with one of us just be smart and realize the guards would try to run you out of town at the very least.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:55 PM 

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While I can agree in theory that working like that would be a good thing, I know the first time an SD / Sorc HiPS's in between the walls and drops a Hell Ball wiping out a few hin with out DM oversite, I know there will be complaints from Hin PCs.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 21:57 PM 

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Well pvp rules still apply you but hey if he does it then takes off and manages to escape without one of us running him down then I can't see anything to complain about unless he does it on a daily basis and is doing it just to be an asshat. If he has reason for doing it then by all mean bring it Dicey loves a good fight :D

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:01 PM 



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This is no different from how Kohlingen and Cordor have it arranged within their cities. right? What exactly is the problem here?

Correct me if I'm wrong. But the original concern here is that 'ambigious shady characters' can no longer act out wanton aggression on the roads that are under Bendir's protection. This protection has had many in-game reasons for comming about, and many months of RP invested in seeing it realized. So, we have effectively extended the pacifying reach of our township to the roads on said township's doorstep. Is it really a legitimate concern for shady characters to say that civilized lands don't let them be uncivilized?

I can see, however, that we have laws that ban entire groups of people from getting into town. Even without visiting Bendir once they are traveling with a cart system into an area in which they're not actually welcome. That is indeed somewhat half-assed. So I would argue that we simply nuance the laws, that these banned people aren't actually banned from the roads, just from the inner town. However, we maintain the rule of our laws on our own roads along with the NPC guards. So even banned individuals can find themselves within the outer wall, but under the scrutiny of the guardforce's surveilance.

Doesn't that solve the entire problem? Bendir's folks got really sick of daily PvP happening right outside their own, so they posted guards there. These prevent the PvP from happening because evidentally DMs aren't available to oversee the NPCs that would respond to it. However by letting the banned groups loiter in this zone, their concerns about not having the mobility they would have had before these walls were a thing is resolved.

Or am I wrong?

As far as the 'SD / Sorc Hellball' scenario's go. . .Isn't that just terrible RP? I wasn't aware we were playing 'catch the random terrorist' on Amia. I mean. If it takes ages to get these fortifications built, it should not be wiped out because a wizard has a childish mood and flicks its hand.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:02 PM 

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As long as there is a good reason for the pvp and evilness and it is kept IC I don't see anything wrong with it, but at least be smart about it and assume that the guards would chase you out of town, that said you do it in a spot where no one can see you and there are a few spots outside the dale for that then by all means you earned the right to do your evil deeds. We just don't want to see the months we spent and time put in to this rp to be thrown out. If this was a serious issue why wasn't it brought up before the changes were made? That is the upsetting part for me and some others.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:08 PM 

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This was what I had envisioned:

Inside the walls - Bendir Law presides, any and all regulations decided upon by the Bendir Folk (NPCs and PCs combined) applies.

Outside the walls - Keep the peace, that's it.

So, if Bendir Dale up and decided one day that it was illegal to wear the color green for some cockamamie reason than they can only enforce that with in the inner walls. In between the walls anyone can wear the color green if they want to.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:10 PM 

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To use something more specific that I see around various cities...

Bendir Dale can not enforce a no helmet/hood law in between the walls.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:13 PM 

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We don't we never have, only real laws outside the inner wall we enforced was branishing your weapons, if you are banned don't linger and yes keep the peace

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:13 PM 

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So... if someone came in and caused some violent act... we can react? But, banned people can hang out all they like?


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:17 PM 

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You cant ban people from outside the inner walls, same as you can not ban them from the cart system.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:18 PM 

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Then why does it say Bendir's jurisdiction is that entire area? We never siad they can't pass through just not allowed to hangout

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:19 PM 

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If someone wants to start PvP they should have DM oversite if they are doing it with in site of an NPC.

That being said if Mr. Evil walked in front of a guard NPC and started PvP with out DM oversite, I would certainly react, but I would also screen shot it and report it for meta-gaming the NPCs


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:20 PM 

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No_Dice_13 wrote:
Then why does it say Bendir's jurisdiction is that entire area? We never siad they can't pass through just not allowed to hangout


Good point, we should change that.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:21 PM 



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msheeler wrote:
To use something more specific that I see around various cities...

Bendir Dale can not enforce a no helmet/hood law in between the walls.


I love you, but this really doesn't make a lot of sense on an IC level. Isn't it up to the Bendir characters what laws they want to enforce and where they want to enforce them? The Bendir guards, being enforcers of Bendir law, should enforce that law where ever the characters leading them decide they should.

Trying to put OOC restrictions on things like this is pretty immersion breaking for everyone involved. Would the Bendir guardsmen revolt if they were ordered by PC leadership to enforce laws on the roads?


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:22 PM 

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On the other hand, we can allow you to have complete juristiction over anything inside either wall now that player can choose to walk around them, But if that happens the carts will move to another area outside of the walls.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:25 PM 

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Krin wrote:
Isn't it up to the Bendir characters what laws they want to enforce and where they want to enforce them? The Bendir guards, being enforcers of Bendir law, should enforce that law where ever the characters leading them decide they should.


They players are not the only figures of authority in Bendir Dale, there are NPC authority figures there that have a say in things too.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:26 PM 

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If that changes then that makes all our RP to fortify our outer area null and void. Also what about the orchard and house there? and our Graveyard that all rest outside the inner walls? What now they are not protected by our laws? I don't see what the issue is with the Dale folk protecting that area we have been doing so for awhile now and it seems to have worked out just fine, but because a few complain about the changes now everything we have done is being thrown out the wall is pointless out there if we have no jurisdiction, same for the ballistas and golems.

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Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:36 PM 

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msheeler wrote:
I can not agree to allowing any are in the game where one player (a) and PvP another player (b), but that player (b) can not PvP (a). It doesn't work like that for any other area.

I've seen numerous DMs working in Bendir Dale, as many as three at a time before, so I don't believe that Bendir Dale "never has any any DM oversite.

If someone is an ass and is breaking the rules, screen shot it and report it to the DMs so they can handle it. That's what you're supposed to do.

That Guy wrote:
Msheeler,

What you're essentially saying is that only the NPC guards can do anything on Bendir Land not directly inside the gates. To me, that makes the Mayor Appointed Citizens who are the Police and Protection force of Bendir Dale... useless in that case. I can't see how appointed officials can't oversee the removal of someone being an asshat. The guards... yeah, let's be honest, they have never done anything. We've tried getting DM oversight for things in the past, and I've never actually witnessed it occurring.

As for others initiating PVP vs us? It is going to happen. I promise you. What if there are no DM's available? We just stand there and say... "Stop, or I'll say stop again!". Since... we can't do a thing to stop them or we'd be metagaming too. To me... this is silly.

We don't have enough DM's and time with those DM's as it stands now... I can't see how asking them to babysit Bendir Dale for the asshats is a good use of what resources we do have.


Yeah. Last night someone was disjointing me randomly. Should I have not retaliated? Was that not allowed because no DM was on?

The DM enforcement policy is so artificial, and forcing people to wait for a DM to be on to handle a problem person is insane. It takes over a week to get the DM team to weigh in on an event (im still waiting on official word from the 'ant alarm' from a few weeks ago), so your ruling essentially means deal with whatever some 'evil' or whoever PC wants to do and hopefully some DM will come by in the mean time and tell them they shouldn't have done that.

While an easier solution would just be to let the PC's handle it themselves.

msheeler wrote:
If someone wants to start PvP they should have DM oversite if they are doing it with in site of an NPC.

That being said if Mr. Evil walked in front of a guard NPC and started PvP with out DM oversite, I would certainly react, but I would also screen shot it and report it for meta-gaming the NPCs



This doesn't happen though. They just do whatever. I've seen banned people in cities they are banned from with no DM's on plenty of times, and have seen plenty of pvp right in front of guards.

To say we just have to sit back and deal with whatever asshole PC decides to do because we arn't allowed to retaliate or have to wait actual irl weeks for an official DM ruling after everyone has already moved on is literally absurd.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:46 PM 

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No_Dice_13 wrote:
Also what about the orchard and house there? and our Graveyard that all rest outside the inner walls? What now they are not protected by our laws?


No, they are outside the walls, so Bendir Law does not preside there, just the rule of keeping the peace.

No_Dice_13 wrote:
If that changes then that makes all our RP to fortify our outer area null and void.


So what you are saying is that as Bendir Players you should have complete rights to determine who can or who can not use the carts and what they can or can not do. That is not something that any player has a right to do. At some point game functionallity has to take presidence over sand boxing, and this is where we are butting up against that line.

Looking over the laws I would say that these ones can not be enforced outside of the inner walls:
Quote:

Law II: Derogatory statements aimed at residents by visitors will not be tolerated. Derogatory statements aimed at visitors by residents will not be tolerated.

Law III: Those who steal must pay a fine equal in value to the stolen article as well as a donation equal to 50% of the value to Brandobaris.

Law V: Drow must be accompanied by a select few people in order to legally enter. Exceptions to this rule are kept on a list, available to all members of the Bendir Militia.

Law VI: Guests must disarm upon entering. Weapons may only be bared by militia, except in special cases. These cases include overwhelming odds of offenders versus outnumbered militia. Non-residents who refuse to disarm will be forcefully disarmed.

Law VII: All face covering items are to be removed upon entering the dale, including hoods. This law applies to citizens and visitors alike. The only exception to this law is a member of the Bendir Militia.

Law IX: Shifting is allowed within reason and must be done in front of militia for mutual safety. Turning into a creature not allowed normally will be punished. <--- for this one you cant really punish them, tell them to be something else.

Law X: Hin, Dwarves, Gnomes and Fey may live peacefully in Bendir Dale. Bendir Dale's jurisdiction extends to the border of the Amia Forest, to the foothills of the Skull Crags, to the Mylock Hills and to the top of the hill along the south road. <---- this should be changed.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:48 PM 



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msheeler wrote:
This was what I had envisioned:

Inside the walls - Bendir Law presides, any and all regulations decided upon by the Bendir Folk (NPCs and PCs combined) applies.

Outside the walls - Keep the peace, that's it.

So, if Bendir Dale up and decided one day that it was illegal to wear the color green for some cockamamie reason than they can only enforce that with in the inner walls. In between the walls anyone can wear the color green if they want to.


I don't see a problem with this. This is literally something I was planning to propose ICly in the next town meeting under the guise of it promoting more traffic. Going as far as to keep the outer doors on an auto-open script unless locked. So essentially unless an army approaches from wherever.

But as Krin points out, what's the IC motive? There's more reasons not to do it than to do it.

As you can see, all my fellow Bendir people vehemently oppose it for a very clear reason: Certain banned invididuals are banned because they have 'proven' to be dangerous knobheads.

As for banned 'groups' that aren't immediately a menace; If a necromancer comes and he's allowed in the same area as where our people are getting burried, people begin wondering if we're being sane or not.

Not to mention that our relations with Kohlingen, the Dwarves and Winya might all be taking blows if we let people from Tarkuul just loiter around. Are you catching my drift? They will be asking. 'Why are you allowing them in your outer wall?' And what then are we to say? That we're in the pocket of the Cart Service?

The simplest solutions are:
- Move the Cart Service
- Remove our new wall and put our golems inside our town. Because really, if we're not getting our stone wall, what's the point? People aren't going to get any more mad than they already are at this point.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:52 PM 

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msheeler wrote:
No_Dice_13 wrote:
Also what about the orchard and house there? and our Graveyard that all rest outside the inner walls? What now they are not protected by our laws?


No, they are outside the walls, so Bendir Law does not preside there, just the rule of keeping the peace.

No_Dice_13 wrote:
If that changes then that makes all our RP to fortify our outer area null and void.


So what you are saying is that as Bendir Players you should have complete rights to determine who can or who can not use the carts and what they can or can not do. That is not something that any player has a right to do. At some point game functionallity has to take presidence over sand boxing, and this is where we are butting up against that line.

Looking over the laws I would say that these ones can not be enforced outside of the inner walls:
Quote:

Law II: Derogatory statements aimed at residents by visitors will not be tolerated. Derogatory statements aimed at visitors by residents will not be tolerated.

Law III: Those who steal must pay a fine equal in value to the stolen article as well as a donation equal to 50% of the value to Brandobaris.

Law V: Drow must be accompanied by a select few people in order to legally enter. Exceptions to this rule are kept on a list, available to all members of the Bendir Militia.

Law VI: Guests must disarm upon entering. Weapons may only be bared by militia, except in special cases. These cases include overwhelming odds of offenders versus outnumbered militia. Non-residents who refuse to disarm will be forcefully disarmed.

Law VII: All face covering items are to be removed upon entering the dale, including hoods. This law applies to citizens and visitors alike. The only exception to this law is a member of the Bendir Militia.

Law IX: Shifting is allowed within reason and must be done in front of militia for mutual safety. Turning into a creature not allowed normally will be punished. <--- for this one you cant really punish them, tell them to be something else.

Law X: Hin, Dwarves, Gnomes and Fey may live peacefully in Bendir Dale. Bendir Dale's jurisdiction extends to the border of the Amia Forest, to the foothills of the Skull Crags, to the Mylock Hills and to the top of the hill along the south road. <---- this should be changed.


if those laws are so bad you have to red-text them why are they on the books and in the game at all. why did they get approved in the first place

edit; you know how much friction it causes when you take something away after you tell a community of people 'yes' right? Why is it getting to this point here? where was the breakdown?

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 22:57 PM 



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The idea of changing things in game (the laws) because of an OOC issue feels immersion breaking. This is going to affect us in-character, in-game, and everything Bendir deals with. Even if we find a good IC excuse for deciding to change the laws, knowing that it's for a purely OOC reason feels wrong as well as the leading justifications we'll have to make IC. Honestly at this point, I think I'm for moving the carts just outside the gates east if we're truly allowed to keep full jurisdiction. If we move the carts east, it won't be too far from the main 'hub' area with the bench.

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Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:00 PM 



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I retract my statement about moving the cart service. I don't see how we can do that without moving the entire roads to pass by Bendir rather than through it.

Alternatively. These ambigious shady characters could show some initiative of their own and establish a means of transportation across the island that doesn't depend on these carts. It would be as much a player initative as our wall was.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:02 PM 

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Elyon wrote:
The idea of changing things in game (the laws) because of an OOC issue feels immersion breaking. This is going to affect us in-character, in-game, and everything Bendir deals with. Even if we find a good IC excuse for deciding to change the laws, knowing that it's for a purely OOC reason feels wrong as well as the leading justifications we'll have to make IC. Honestly at this point, I think I'm for moving the carts just outside the gates east if we're truly allowed to keep full jurisdiction. If we move the carts east, it won't be too far from the main 'hub' area with the bench.


I actually thought we had reached a perfectly suitable agreement pages ago, then suddenly all this stuff about dm supervision and what "people are allowed to do"/"people are not allowed to do"/"get a screenshot and narc on them through pm's instead of handling it in game" comes roaring back in.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:06 PM 

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I'll be flat out honest here this is the way I see it:

Bendir Dale people had a perfectly safe spot where they could enforce what ever law they wrote (of coarse it would be written with PC and NPC input). However, they wanted to include more people in RP so they often moved their RP outside of their safe zone where they could enforce what ever law they wrote to a place where pretty much anyone traveling from one end of the island to the other end would have to stop and cross through. Unfortunately this applied to everyone traveling, and there are some people that Bendir Dale people just didn't like how they RP'ed for various reasons (legit and non-legit I am sure). So, to fix this they decided to build their wall bigger so it would include the biggest cross road point on the server and now they can say that everyone has to play by their way if they want to move from one end of the island to the other, or they will have to be significantly hindered in being able to make that trip.


So far many of you have advocated that I design an entirely new travel route (and to be fair it would have to offer the same ease of travel the current carts offer) to accommodate those "other players". That, is in my opinion, an unreasonable request and in fact counter productive to your reason for moving the main RP point to a place near the carts as opposed to inside the walls.

Others suggested offering a walk around route, which I was able to do by moving the walls around just a bit, and I was perfectly happy to put in the 8 hours of work it took to do that and make sure they all worked like they were supposed to, but that still hasn't solved the problem of providing all types of players equal access to the mass travel system.

Now, I have offered two solutions: Either we limit Bendir Dale full law to inside the inner walls and say that in between the walls is a combat free zone where guards are there to ensure no one fights physically, or, we move the cart system to a place outside the walls where all players can use it equally and Bendir Folk can apply all their laws inside all the walls.

Some of you are saying that this now invalidates your work. Perhaps it does do that to some of the work, but I am trying to work with you in a manner that allows us to give you the maximum amount of what you worked for with out crippling the design of the server.

Bendir Dale is a very important cross road in the design of the server. I can move that cross road to another spot, or you can accept that you can have it right inside your walls in order to ensure that no one fights, but you can not have complete say in what others are going to do in that area. I have really not heard much of anyone say how they were willing to work with me on this to preserve the function-ability of the server as a whole. Who is willing to work with me and willing to find some sort of compromise that works (mostly) for everyone? Anyone?


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:09 PM 

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Commie wrote:
if those laws are so bad you have to red-text them why are they on the books and in the game at all. why did they get approved in the first place

edit; you know how much friction it causes when you take something away after you tell a community of people 'yes' right? Why is it getting to this point here? where was the breakdown?


I was referring to changing how they operate in between the walls, not everywhere. The last one I will blame on slack oversight by the DM who approved them (no idea who it was) because you should not have been able to claim the entire area due to the design of the server and its function-ability.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:10 PM 

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Couch_Ninja wrote:
I retract my statement about moving the cart service. I don't see how we can do that without moving the entire roads to pass by Bendir rather than through it.


Not really. I could move the cart NPCs to the area just south of Amia Forest and outside all of Bendir's Walls.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:13 PM 

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Commie wrote:
I actually thought we had reached a perfectly suitable agreement pages ago, then suddenly all this stuff about dm supervision and what "people are allowed to do"/"people are not allowed to do"/"get a screenshot and narc on them through pm's instead of handling it in game" comes roaring back in.


People began to post that they thought that it was okay to PvP in front of NPC guards, and while I agree with it in theory (I'd love to set their factions up so they would just auto react appropriately) the last 5 years of observing how people play and react to each other tells me that this just wont work.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:25 PM 

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msheeler wrote:
I'll be flat out honest here this is the way I see it:

Bendir Dale people had a perfectly safe spot where they could enforce what ever law they wrote (of coarse it would be written with PC and NPC input). However, they wanted to include more people in RP so they often moved their RP outside of their safe zone where they could enforce what ever law they wrote to a place where pretty much anyone traveling from one end of the island to the other end would have to stop and cross through. Unfortunately this applied to everyone traveling, and there are some people that Bendir Dale people just didn't like how they RP'ed for various reasons (legit and non-legit I am sure). So, to fix this they decided to build their wall bigger so it would include the biggest cross road point on the server and now they can say that everyone has to play by their way if they want to move from one end of the island to the other, or they will have to be significantly hindered in being able to make that trip.


So far many of you have advocated that I design an entirely new travel route (and to be fair it would have to offer the same ease of travel the current carts offer) to accommodate those "other players". That, is in my opinion, an unreasonable request and in fact counter productive to your reason for moving the main RP point to a place near the carts as opposed to inside the walls.

Others suggested offering a walk around route, which I was able to do by moving the walls around just a bit, and I was perfectly happy to put in the 8 hours of work it took to do that and make sure they all worked like they were supposed to, but that still hasn't solved the problem of providing all types of players equal access to the mass travel system.

Now, I have offered two solutions: Either we limit Bendir Dale full law to inside the inner walls and say that in between the walls is a combat free zone where guards are there to ensure no one fights physically, or, we move the cart system to a place outside the walls where all players can use it equally and Bendir Folk can apply all their laws inside all the walls.

Some of you are saying that this now invalidates your work. Perhaps it does do that to some of the work, but I am trying to work with you in a manner that allows us to give you the maximum amount of what you worked for with out crippling the design of the server.

Bendir Dale is a very important cross road in the design of the server. I can move that cross road to another spot, or you can accept that you can have it right inside your walls in order to ensure that no one fights, but you can not have complete say in what others are going to do in that area. I have really not heard much of anyone say how they were willing to work with me on this to preserve the function-ability of the server as a whole. Who is willing to work with me and willing to find some sort of compromise that works (mostly) for everyone? Anyone?


Actual server 'you will be punished if you break w/o dm oversight' rules; Hin rules inside the inner wall. Anarchy outside. Imo.

Practical rules; whatever they say as it isn't 'binding' if it's outside the inner wall, and ppl can do whatever they feel they should when it comes to 'rule breakers' w/o dm oversight.

msheeler wrote:
Commie wrote:
I actually thought we had reached a perfectly suitable agreement pages ago, then suddenly all this stuff about dm supervision and what "people are allowed to do"/"people are not allowed to do"/"get a screenshot and narc on them through pm's instead of handling it in game" comes roaring back in.


People began to post that they thought that it was okay to PvP in front of NPC guards, and while I agree with it in theory (I'd love to set their factions up so they would just auto react appropriately) the last 5 years of observing how people play and react to each other tells me that this just wont work.


Yeah because it happened last night. I got accused of metagaming by responding to force with force when someone was disjointing me in front of the guards.

So clearly it has to be addressed.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:34 PM 

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I mean no disrespect with this, but asking who is willing to help rather than complain after already telling them what will happen regardless and doing it without the input of the players and groups it mostly affects, is something of a slap in the face. I'm not saying you meant it like that but that's how it comes across as someone sat here reading this and watching more and more of a community get pissed off with it. Changes were made without the player input after the players had spent time jumping through hoops to have their input included.

Sorry to a casual observer that just doesn't seem fair or inclusive. :?

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:40 PM 

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I agree, and it sucks that changes had to be made. The fact of the matter is though that this went in with poor oversite on the part of the DMs and Developers and we can leave it broken, so something had to be done.

I already said it earlier, but it may have been missed...

msheeler wrote:
So, a quick comment. This was not done in a well thought out manner, that is a fault of the staff. Had this been carefully thought out the decision would have been - no, no wall period, no golems.


 
      
That Guy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:48 PM 

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I have no issue with the carts moving closer to Amia Forest, but, I'm just one player.


 
      
Krin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:50 PM 



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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Location: California

Commie wrote:
Yeah because it happened last night. I got accused of metagaming by responding to force with force when someone was disjointing me in front of the guards.

So clearly it has to be addressed.


So.. You keep bringing this up and, because my character was the other party involved, I feel like I need to fill in the details around why this was brought up last night.

This was the series of events, as it happened:

Your character attempted to cast a True Seeing spell on himself. My character countered that spell to prevent the casting, entirely at random, because he wanted to irk your character. The spell was countered one time, while my character was invisible on the hill within Bendir's outer wall.

Your character told my character not to do that, to which my character responded, in his usual asshat way, 'Or what?' as he was sitting on top of the hill.

Your character buffed a little and then ran up the hill to my character and repeated the demand. My character said something like, 'Why not?'

Your character turned into a dragon beside my character. My character, being the irritating prat that he is, said that the transformation was interesting but it didn't answer the question. He asked 'Why not?' and 'Or what?' again, still seated on the ground and making no hostile moves or buffing attempts.

Your character attacked with melee. When the Knockdown wore off, my character cast Greater Sanctuary and said something like.. 'You shouldn't be so violent.'

Your character responded by casting Earthquake repeatedly until my character died. Afterwards, your character set my character's corpse on fire.

The entire attack, corpse burning included, happened within about 5 feet of one NPC guard with another NPC guard and a stone golem within another 15 feet or so.

You sent me a tell that read something like, '24 hours or true rezz. don't counter me again if you don't want to catch more shit'.

I don't do the negative thing OOC, so I didn't respond to you. My character lay there dead until another character showed up and, after a long debate with your character about the legality of killing someone in front of the guards, raised my character. At that point, because some of the other players that witnessed the event had sent me shocked tells about what they considered to be metagaming, I sent you a tell that said something like...

'Hey. I don't get grumpy about my character being murdered, so I don't really care very much, but you should be careful about PvP in front of NPC guards because some people do :/'

You told me that a DM told you that Bendir laws don't apply at all outside of the inner wall, including the laws about violence, so it was okay. I said something like.. ' o.0 Really? That's a new one'

And that was the whole 'situation' that brought up the new questions about Bendir law and PvP around guards. I'm used to my character being attacked, deserved and undeserved, so I don't really care about that. The sudden rule change was just surprising.

So if it's true that none of Bendir's laws can be enforced outside of the inner walls, this entire interaction was fine. If not, then we just need to be more careful about murdering people in full view of NPC guards.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:54 PM 

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Naw dude it's all fine I just don't know what the hell is a rule or not a rule. The rules forum itself is labyrinthine enough as it is, plus new shit that seems to be getting piled on top of it now and not written down. I just have no idea wtf is 'allowed!'

Our interaction was just the first of many that are 'testing' these guards and walls. That's the only reason I'm bringing it up so much.

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Krin
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:56 PM 



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Commie wrote:
Naw dude it's all fine I just don't know what the hell is a rule or not a rule. The rules forum itself is labyrinthine enough as it is, plus new shit that seems to be getting piled on top of it now and not written down. I just have no idea wtf is 'allowed!'

Our interaction was just the first of many that are 'testing' these guards and walls. That's the only reason I'm bringing it up so much.


I understand. :) Like I said, I don't have any bad feelings about any of it. The rule change just came out of nowhere.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 23:59 PM 

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Krin wrote:
Commie wrote:
Naw dude it's all fine I just don't know what the hell is a rule or not a rule. The rules forum itself is labyrinthine enough as it is, plus new shit that seems to be getting piled on top of it now and not written down. I just have no idea wtf is 'allowed!'

Our interaction was just the first of many that are 'testing' these guards and walls. That's the only reason I'm bringing it up so much.


I understand. :) Like I said, I don't have any bad feelings about any of it. The rule change just came out of nowhere.


That's why we're all here.

Lets look at some other fun rules.

http://www.amiaworld.net/about/rules.html

Quote:
Do not give fellow players items they should not have or do not deserve, or drop unearned gold on someone (commonly referred to as twinking someone). Also note that gifts given ICly should not generally be worth more than 20k GP. You should not gift another player with items they could have not acquired fairly. DM will determine what is fair, if required. Read more about twinking here. ((it then links to a topic that doesn't exist))

Do not babysit players outside your party level range. You either hunt with a party, or solo, but you are not to walk behind lower level players helping/healing/buffing them.


yeah those get enforced

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:09 AM 

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That page is really out of date. The twinking rule at least was changed a while back and is basically non-existent now. It was simplified to having it be an IC transaction, with IC reasons.

But yes, you are right that the forum is labyrinthine with the rules.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:09 AM 



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Joined: 02 Mar 2013

I think moving the carts to the Amia Forest transition, and holding official juristiction within our outer walls, may be in every party's better interest. It is at least the fastest solution to realize, makes the most IC sense and doesn't bother any evil folks with the cart transition, placing it outside of the gate like every other settlement.

Thanks for taking your patient time, msheeler. This must not have been a pleasant day for you. And I do not see people's 'hard work' lost over this matter.

Except for one thing. . .
For what purpose aren't we getting a stone wall? I'm not sure if I just missed the explaination or. . .?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:13 AM 

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LetumLux wrote:
That page is really out of date. The twinking rule at least was changed a while back and is basically non-existent now. It was simplified to having it be an IC transaction, with IC reasons.

But yes, you are right that the forum is labyrinthine with the rules.


the first rules thread on the rules forum

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=55956

links to that page in the first paragraph!

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That Guy
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:13 AM 

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Couch_Ninja wrote:
I think moving the carts to the Amia Forest transition, and holding official juristiction within our outer walls, may be in every party's better interest. It is at least the fastest solution to realize, makes the most IC sense and doesn't bother any evil folks with the cart transition, placing it outside of the gate like every other settlement.

Thanks for taking your patient time, msheeler. This must not have been a pleasant day for you. And I do not see people's 'hard work' lost over this matter.

Except for one thing. . .
For what purpose aren't we getting a stone wall? I'm not sure if I just missed the explaination or. . .?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:14 AM 

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Couch_Ninja wrote:
I think moving the carts to the Amia Forest transition, and holding official juristiction within our outer walls, may be in every party's better interest. It is at least the fastest solution to realize, makes the most IC sense and doesn't bother any evil folks with the cart transition, placing it outside of the gate like every other settlement.

Thanks for taking your patient time, msheeler. This must not have been a pleasant day for you. And I do not see people's 'hard work' lost over this matter.

Except for one thing. . .
For what purpose aren't we getting a stone wall? I'm not sure if I just missed the explaination or. . .?


if you're gonna move em, move em to that busted castle thing right next to the dale (in the frontier, like on the way to sanctuary) instead of the forest.

cause the forest has all sorts of crazy laws.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:16 AM 

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I asked the DM team and they said wooden walls, so that's what I put in. There are only two options for wooden walls and one you can walk right through.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:18 AM 

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The spot I am thinking of is still in the Bendir Dale area, North of the walls and South of the forest. Near where the road warden is now.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:27 AM 



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Joined: 02 Mar 2013

It's a nice spot! Although it implies the carts go through Amia forest, if that's not a problem, logistically speaking, then it's definately the best spot.

As far as two options. . .You can easily place a placable inside of a thick wall that is hidden but stops people from walking through it. It's a simple design trick.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:30 AM 

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That trick also doubles the amount size of the increase in the file,and Bendir Dale was already pushing it.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:34 AM 

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msheeler wrote:
The spot I am thinking of is still in the Bendir Dale area, North of the walls and South of the forest. Near where the road warden is now.


won't that just make that the new chat spot?

if you do this put some benches and shit out there. perhaps a table.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:39 AM 

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No benches and no tables, I'm not going to encourage that to become the same devil.


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:46 AM 

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can i put down my own tables and chairs and encourage other players to stay a while and listen?

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Count Kaldrjarn Pitt | Archmage Kilmar | Sarguk Morderer

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MisterLich wrote:
First of all, my brain is one of the best here.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Fri, Mar 18 2016, 0:50 AM 



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Joined: 02 Mar 2013

People shall bring their own chairs, you know this to be true. However, as far as file size goes. Is it some kind of stability-per-area issue?


 
      
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