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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 4:58 AM 

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Hello there all ye' hin folke.

It's me, one of the developers. Anyways I want to try and open up some dialog with you because there have been several concerns raised up due to the latest plot / pc initative update done to Bendir Dale. Most of these revolve around two things.

    1. People who are not normally welcome in Bendir Dale (inside the city walls) are now forces to have to walk through city walls to get from Amia Frontier to Amia Forest. Now, it has been told to me that Bendir law still has presidence only with in the inner wall (around the town), but a number of our players who enjoy playing the shadier types are deeply concerned that due to the walls they have to atually walk through and the NPC guards (golems) they are going to be blamed for meta gaming them and/or be attacked for entering a banned area.

    2. Those same players are now, for similar reasons, effectively cut off from using the cart system because it dumps them inside Bendir Dale walls.

I think that perhaps there are ways to remedy this, but I also want to work with you because while we want to make it fair for all the players we also don't want to take away from what you have worked for.

Thoughts?


 
      
Commie
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 5:43 AM 

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Edit : redacted

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Last edited by Commie on Thu, Mar 17 2016, 20:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.

 
      
CrazyCatLady
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 6:13 AM 

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Rania is still an official citizen of the Dale, so I thought I'd drop in a thought. What if we moved the carts down by the other side of the bridge; down by the gate near the forest? That would resolve that. As far as the new gated area...eh. That's a tough one. It would almost have to be removed and placed elsewhere to allow the more nefarious types safe passage.

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Ts_
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 8:22 AM 

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Hey,

Thanks for considering the shadier types' concerns. I tried to walk around that place and it's not an easy hike, though hins need protection, too ...

Moving the carts to the north seems like an improvement, though you can't really walk anywhere from there but Amia Forest. (The fort is guarding the intersection.) Also, wouldn't the carts still travel through the walls? (Except the one to Kampo's.)

Still, in terms of shady-accessibilty, I think it would be an improvement.

The other way would be to make it ICly known that the cart drivers place is international waters as long as you're just changing carts ...

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Kudark
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 10:25 AM 

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Crow suggested this some years ago, gate off the carts area. If you're banned, you open the gate at your own risk.

"But how do the carts get behind the gate?"
"Magic!"

I dunno, maybe that's where they unload.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 10:58 AM 

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Tunnel? I mean the orc cave exits in the area anyway and there has much been rp'd about caves in the area. Would fit with being 'sneaky to find a way round few know about.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 13:30 PM 



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Hi Msheeler, thanks for bringing this issue up. If it's unfair for the sneaky evil types then I suppose it should be made... more fair. This is a tough one. Players would need to access the carts area, aswell as walk by to get to the troll hill, mylocks, frontier and forest.

We could have something similar to what Cordor has, the guarded building with the portal lamp- except just not with the portal lamps and maybe a shack instead of a classy building. The building in Cordor, I thought, was designed cleverly to allow anyone to use the lamps without needing to be at exterior Cordor, perhaps a similar system?

Inside this 'station', we could have one guard, the existing cart drivers and an escort which will take them outside to the four entrances (trolls, mylocks, frontier and forest). We'll also need an escort outside these four entrances to take them into this 'station'. Although the problem with this is that we never know when the carts are coming until someone pops out of the cart area (which has always been the case), and that the player isn't visually seen walking by Bendir when using the escort. But it's one way I can see this solved.

Otherwise I think Walnutboy's idea of a tunnel might be a good idea.

I'll think about it more... It's a really tricky one.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 14:05 PM 

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The Dale is the literal crossroads, you can get to all the areas just beyond its borders by going the long way. There is the age old argument that action brings reaction and you suffer the consequences'! The carts could be moved to a less 'visible' area if using the carts is the issue. If it is simply ease of use, allowing people to move freely with freedom of choice over whether they enter an rea they are ICly banned from, well can't you move the walls back a little and literally create a walk round in some way so you can skirt the curtain wall so to speak?

Most seem able to use an r using the rope to climb up one level without a hill, perhaps add areas were that is possible? Make the journey round the wall interesting and not a straight, cluck, run, transition?

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Anatida
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 14:48 PM 

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I can move the walls in closer to the road and make a walk around but its going to drastically reduce the size of the group hangout area and it's going to cut down on foot traffic from the carts meaning roleplay. Also if you want to keep the road in tact that goes to Amia forest it will require cutting out the orchard area and the house on that side although I may just not be picturing it very well.

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walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 15:22 PM 

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Anatida wrote:
I can move the walls in closer to the road and make a walk around but its going to drastically reduce the size of the group hangout area and it's going to cut down on foot traffic from the carts meaning roleplay. Also if you want to keep the road in tact that goes to Amia forest it will require cutting out the orchard area and the house on that side although I may just not be picturing it very well.


Sorry I'm just throwing out ideas! I think any route which technically bypasses the Dale will promote a slight fall in foot traffic as people use it to avoid confrontation. There are routes round (long routes) and people have portal wands. A character would only chance an area were they are banned to see if they can get away with it and mock the rule of law so to speak. I understand the need for fair play though.

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Anatida
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 15:28 PM 

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I'm not arguing. I'm also only throwing out ides, and trying to point out things that may not have been thought of. :)

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Nalkanar
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 15:35 PM 

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Also maybe clearer "wall" specifications in Bendir law might be needed (if they are not already there, I haven't been in Bendir for a while... but it was mentioned here).

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 17:01 PM 

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Moving the cart drivers out of the drivers away from where they are to another location and making the path way / walk around will likely result in reducing Bendir's role as an ad-hoc RP location. To use a past example I would say take a look at what happened to Fort Wilton and what happened there when the bind point t location was moved from outside the inn to the beach front.

Just something to keep in mind.


 
      
maglorine
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 17:33 PM 

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Amia Forest is the biggest issue. What if you moved the transition to Amia Forest from the Skull Crags Trummels down to the first Skull Crags zone where the Trolls are., representing a hidden path. You can quickly duck from the carts to Trolls without much trouble, then if there were a more convenient transition to Amia Forest from there you'd have a short path for banned folks while the unbanned could continue to use the public road. Might solve the problem in a minimalist way.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 17:53 PM 

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For the most part all the areas fit together to form one contiguous map and moving a transition or area like that affects more than just that.


 
      
walnutboy
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 17:55 PM 

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Back to a tunnel then! lol

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MazeOfThorns
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 18:06 PM 

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I thought the walls were for the trolls, the orc and the mylocks not "adventurers". Bendir is pretty tolerant of folks and as long as you don't cause trouble you can walk through there no problem. At least thats what I've seen.

As far as not being able to access the carts as a nefarious character, that's the price you pay for being nefarious. I can tell you from personal experience with one of my characters who isn't allowed in a lot of places that getting around can be done. And that not being able to go places can be fine and/or worked around. (DM oversight *cof*).

I'd hate to see the carts moved since it provides the opportunity for RP.

And that's my couple o' coppers.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 20:42 PM 

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I'd advocate that nothing really needs to be changed. Just make it clear that the laws all still apply, and they apply in the same places they've always applied: in the *town*. Wherever the laws reference "inside the walls," change those references to "inside the town," and then hey, all is good!

You might even consider that this is always the way the Dale has operated, since there's always been a "wall" across the bridge over the river, outside of the main town walls. And nobody ever argued that the entire road was "inside the walls," that I know of. I don't really see that the situation needs a change in the map or a change in the laws, just a change in perspective. The town is the town, and outside the town the laws are a bit looser, even if there's walls around part of the area outside the town.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 22:23 PM 

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While I can see your points, Maze and Liz, I think we also have to listen to what other players are saying. I am also making an extended effort to do this because the DM team has been repeatedly told that the players of shady characters feel ignored and like they are given the short end of the stick far to often. What they are saying (notice the use of "they" because it is multiple players not just one or two) is that the update unfairly cuts them off from the most major cross road on module A and forces them (unfairly) to make extended efforts to walk through areas with monstrous spawns while the players of good characters have the short, safe route wide open.

While I understand that the area should operate with a "business as usual" rule setting the sudden addition of golems directly in front of the cart drop of is sort of heavy handed. In the past guard presence there was always light and off in the distance. Now its up front, big and in your face.

It is because of these reasons that I, and others of the staff, feel like something should be done.


 
      
Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 23:20 PM 

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I think I'm not explaining myself clearly. :)

I don't mean to be dismissive in the least to the people who are concerned. What I'm saying is that the easiest solution is just to make it clear to the concerned people that nothing has changed. Declare that the new walls do not expand the area governed by the old laws. Then nobody's getting the short end, because no new rules apply to the cart / crossroads area. Shady people can still ride the carts as always, and can still linger around on the hills as always, without DM oversight. If they want to do something to advertise their nefariousness like attack the town or whatever, that's when they still need a DM oversight, just like they always did.

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Anatida
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 23:31 PM 

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My opinion on this is the same as liz'S but I have considered A new idea that splits the carts up outside of each gate in the direction they Travel, while moving the walls in slightly. I'll upload a picture when my internet comes back

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 23:34 PM 



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I agree with Liz, it's always been the same. I also think it's a matter of trusting the playerbase, because I know for sure that we're very calm about letting bad guys move on without a hassle. And if someone does happen to ambush you without OOC warning or DM oversight, then screenshot and report it. Nevertheless... if changes must be made I'd really prefer that the carts stay where they are for it's RP opportunities.

Can carts have two options? Keep it's existing one, and another to drop them off to places along the route. Say:
- From Kampo's to Bendir, the forest entrance to Bendir
- From Cordor to Bendir, outside the south gate
- From Guldorand to Bendir, outside the troll gate

From there we can have a walk around, marked in red. There's different height levels, will it be okay to have like a climb check, ladder or something to get from one hill to the next? And maybe a walkable log to get to the other side of the river.

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This might make it easier to get to places without passing too many NPCs if that's still a worry.
As for the carts, is getting from one place to another an issue? Say from Cordor to Bendir to Kampos? Because those are just a click away. Even so, if you're trying to get to the carts from a certain distance of NPCs passed, we've always let others get to the cart area without confrontation despite the golems.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 23:36 PM 

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Elyon wrote:
I'd really prefer that the carts stay where they are for it's RP opportunities.

+1 this! RP hub is awesome. Don't dismantle it! I'd advocate against moving the dropoff points, too. The Dale tried that once already, having the dropoff points be at the far edges of the map, and it worked so well at scattering people around the map that the Dale became pretty much a dead zone for a while, until the carts and dropoff points were all consolidated again near the town gates.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Jan 21 2016, 23:58 PM 



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Actually... Maybe not ladders and walkable logs because that defeats the whole purpose of the wall. Instead, climb checks like in the ash caverns and swimming to get across?

Will having two drop points for those carts really scatter players out you think? The main drop point is still there.

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LetumLux
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 22 2016, 0:04 AM 

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Something else to consider about the guards - from what I saw, all the additions were golems. This means they follow a set of instructions and don't act on their own outside of those. They could have simply been ordered to guard against monsters invading from without, which means they would not even acknowledge PCs because they aren't a gang of trolls or whatnot. This would therefore mean that bad guys showing up along the road aren't actually metagaming the golem guards. For the golems to actually do anything about PCs, they would need to be directed by a person of authority (which means not just any shortfolk could go up and command them) making them basically DM-oversight. Thus, Bendir Dale has its protections against invading hordes, but the antagonistic PCs aren't breaking any OOC rules.

If people decide that is the route they want to go with it, a shorthand version of that can be added directly into the golems' bios also, stating that they ignore things that aren't obvious monstrous and hostile unless directed by an authority figure.


 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 22 2016, 0:18 AM 



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LetumLux wrote:
Stuff


That's how I've always seen it as too and I agree. (Also the golem attacks you if you hit it, I think that should be added in the bio). I also thought it would reduce the PvP that happens, so now DM-oversight is absolutely necessary? Ideally it would be great to have IG laws and clear IC indication of it, rather than rerouting/altering the layout, along with trust from the playerbase that we're not going to scream 'metagame!' and start mindlessly attacking PCs for being banned. We're very calm about bad guys just moving on without a hassle.

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Liz
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 22 2016, 0:25 AM 

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Elyon wrote:
Will having two drop points for those carts really scatter players out you think? The main drop point is still there.

I think so, yeah. An RP hub tends to occur where people are forced into direct visible proximity.

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Anatida
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 22 2016, 1:04 AM 

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Elon posted my exact idea! Except I was going to try to use a plc bridge with a transition to cross, like in cordon east by the ship.

The golem HAD to be given instructions when they were made... it's part of making them O.o

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 22 2016, 1:08 AM 

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Multiple cart stops is off the table, they are a pain to make.


 
      
Couch_Ninja
 
PostPosted: Sat, Jan 23 2016, 6:13 AM 



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Given I am applying for Mayor. I kind of put in my campaign that I'd see these new outer gates permanently open unless a great threat approaches the Dale. I mean, the walls themselves and the Balistae already keep the odd wandering trolleman at bay. So there's no need to actively monitor civil individuals that cross through these gates with a very critical eye. As far as I know, nothing in the past has happened to warrant a rigorous border control to that extend. Furthermore, there's good reasons why the road through Bendir has always been so oftenly wandered. And by now, taking away the convenience of traveling on it would hurt Bendir's diplomatic and trade relations.

So, my opinion: Open door policy, but the wall stays.


 
      
Candle
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 23:14 PM 

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Wouldn't it just be easier (and this might have been mentioned) to just move the main cart drop off/pickup elsewhere? like just outside one of the gates?

Yes ICly the cart "goes through" the town, but that's pretty easy to ignore.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Fri, Jan 29 2016, 23:53 PM 

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OK so I play Dicey and he was Captain of the Militia for awhile and from what I remember Banned individuals can pass through freely the outer area but are not allowed to linger or go inside the town area. Now sneaky types and shadier types are more then welcome to start trouble but they do have to take in mind that the reason the new guards and golems were there was to beef up our security outside the town so if you are gonna attack do keep in mind that like any other place you can't meta the guards they would attack if you are causing trouble that was the rp reason we made them and had them placed where they were. So passing through and using the cart is fine if you are the shadier type or banned but if you linger around and cause trouble well you can expect a reaction from the guards and golems.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 31 2016, 14:26 PM 

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That there is the sorta the main issue I think.

Bendir Dale is a huge cross roads on the Amian Map and if you can not, or are made to feel like you can not use it then it becomes rather laborious to do anything. What this past update has done is make players feel like they can not use the carts or walk past.

The reasons there never was a wall put up around the entire area, and only around a part of the area, is that issues like this crop up.



There are some things I have read here that may work, and some I know will not work.
What will not work
Moving the carts outside of Bendir Dale
Leaving things as they are right now
re-stating laws and where they do and do not apply
What May Work
Leaving the gate open and moving the golems
Relocating the walls


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 31 2016, 15:13 PM 

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The thing is that we placed the golems an ballistas there because of what the shadier or banned folk were doing, coming to the Dale and causing trouble. We agreed and even rp if they show up and want to pass through they are free to do so but sticking around to linger and cause problems, then they'd have to expect a reaction. I don't like the idea of moving the golems and stuff after we spent so much rp to have them placed there to begin with. If they are worried about passing through they don't have to be they can do so without incident. If they stick around and cause problems well like anywhere with guards you have to assume they will take action.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 31 2016, 15:18 PM 



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With the golems standing where they are, one by the cart area and another just opposite the main gate into the town... I can say for sure it's really cut down the mindless PvP. Helped on a drastic scale. It was unfair towards the Bendir playerbase before the changes, having been stuck in a 'baseless-RP conflict' warzone for a long time. An unhealthy and toxic matter that has left players drained enough to quit our fraction/ leave Amia. We've had the short end of the stick too. Even the roadwardens are ignored (infact I'm not sure what they're for). If the golems are moved from their current spots, I wouldn't like to see those problems solved being reversed.

As for 'Leaving the gate open' for the perimeter wall, I wouldn't mind that. Considering that anyone has been able to enter without a hassle and it's always been that way. During plots like another attack, a DM could lock them.

If it's okay by the team, I politely ask that the 'opposition' side of players provide their input on what they think of this whole issue. Again, we've always been very lax about any PC walking by/ using the carts despite the recent module changes. We completely understand it's a crossroad where everyone travels. What is it specifically about the golems and the wall that makes you 'feel' you can't use these roads? (Please don't read too much into this).

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Ts_
 
PostPosted: Sun, Jan 31 2016, 16:36 PM 

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Hey,

I do like the idea of having the gates open by default to differentiate them from take-off-your-helmet scripted gates.

But here are my character's feelings why walls make all the difference:

Being caged in always leaves her at the mercy of the guards. Always! Even if the gates are initially open and the guards initially neutral towards her. Guards should be trained to close gates quickly. Then it's just fight, not fight or flight.

The alternative routes I could think of: Expand the underground system again. The hub Underport is sadly gone, but many tunnels are still there and actually can get you to places. (And there might even already be a convenient path underneath Bendir's. Embarassingly, I don't know.)

The main problem might actually not be logistics, though, but the need of some evil characters to stay in that "friend zone" of the goodies. To brush by the RP hubs once in a while, be recognized as a living being on Amia, and then disappear again ...

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DustSpray101
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 01 2016, 14:50 PM 

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I agree with the sentiment of my fellow short-folk players. Keeping the outer walls open all the time, and having ways to close them/secure them if the Dale is under threat seems just fine to me.

Otherwise, perhaps keeping a Golem by each gate into the inner town would still act as a good deterrent to combat on the roads (as should the new ballista and the guard tower across from the carts), but not impede on shady folks passing through from the carts, unless they try to enter the inner town. This goes for shadowy folks as well.

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Strom
 
PostPosted: Mon, Feb 01 2016, 15:25 PM 

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Just my two copper.

Idea 1)Just outside Bendir Dale in the Frontier is a ruined building, could run an event where the Amia Cart NPC's ask for this to be fortified. People get a few weeks of RP patroling the orcs and keeping them away from the building - whilst it's turned into a way station; guarded by the Road Wardens - as those guys need some love!
This could be the primary drop off - it's outside the walls and people get to choose if they 'risk it' themselves without getting tossed out when it's too late. :)

Idea 2) This "oversight", incidentally, is player made - the hin put up the walls. ICly. So it's not an oversight, so much as them actually making walls which work... So having shady people dig a tunnel or explore in a DM event for an alternative route around - so transitions can be placed to allow this - should be how it's handled... In my opinion anyway. It generates roleplay... Rather than patching in something.

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chefwudan
 
PostPosted: Thu, Feb 11 2016, 23:45 PM 

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Admittedly I haven't read all the posts, but I'm pretty sure most can navigate through without incident so long as they aren't doing it just for THAT reason.

Me personally, I would prefer to leave it as be, as losing the RP from the carts I think would be greater than the alternative. Besides, I'm pretty sure the whole point of the larger grid was to prevent people from METAing guards with regards to enforcing the laws and PvP. So if your shady, DON'T BE when traveling through Bendir (or most areas for that matter) if you don't want to be dealt with.

As a player that has a character that is ACTUALLY a Bendir Guard. I won't harass anyone for just passing through unless they appear buffed for war and/or with an evil summon in tow.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 16 2016, 18:05 PM 

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Alright I posted what I feel is the best possible compromise to the area and the new walls. The carts are almost exactly where they were, but closer to the inner wall now to free up some walking room. Basically all I did was to move to PLC walls that are closer in now.


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 16 2016, 21:03 PM 

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Is there any other wall PLC that would work? I like the new outline for the walls but the walls them self don't really look like they belong to the Dale, they are the same ones the orcs use in the frontier. Also is there a more stone like wall as we spent a lot of time collecting stone for the wall as that was what we were told to get and a stone wall was kind of what we were looking to get. Other then that I think it is great!

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dvdb35
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 16 2016, 22:27 PM 

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I apologize I did not keep up with the entire thread, but thought I'd throw out a suggestion.

Bendir Dale Inner-town (rules restricting access, left as is).
Bendir Dale Outter-town (slight changes)
Bendir Dale Outter-unwalled portion (additional ground, slight changes)

The Outter-town, in my opinion, would be better if the wall on the southern front (ontop the ridge) was pulled back to run along the upper ridge above the ramp... right above the ramp. This would demand you opened these doors to walk down the ramp, and also would block off the cave exit nearby to the town.

Next the walkway infront of this (adjusted) wall that leads to this cave exit nearby, would need to be bridged and lead from that southern path right all the way to the northern door where an additional downward ramp would hopefully be added. This would allow any unwelcomed threats to stay outside of the inner-town wall, and potentially be able to access the outter-town, while still staying in the outter-unwalled portion and have an added invisibilty to the walls keeping outsiders out blocking the upper view`s vantage. This would potentially block the Troll exit on the right, which could be moved to the upper added portion that allows for a outside walkway. A walkway that would be walled, in this request, giving Bendir Dale an extremely tall southern facing and eastern facing wall. Well food for thought.

I hope that reads clearly for you all and adds to the topic.


 
      
msheeler
 
PostPosted: Wed, Mar 16 2016, 23:36 PM 

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No_Dice_13 wrote:
Is there any other wall PLC that would work? I like the new outline for the walls but the walls them self don't really look like they belong to the Dale, they are the same ones the orcs use in the frontier. Also is there a more stone like wall as we spent a lot of time collecting stone for the wall as that was what we were told to get and a stone wall was kind of what we were looking to get. Other then that I think it is great!


I asked all the other DM's and the consensus was that we would not be putting in stone city walls. Unfortunately that Fort wall is the only wooden wall that would work.


 
      
TormakSaber
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 5:06 AM 

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Bendir's laws do not apply outside the "inner walls". It is not metagaming any guards to PvP outside of the inner walls where the racial gates restrict entrance. Do not expect DMs to enforce this, because it is not a rule, IC or OOC.

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Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 10:39 AM 



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TormakSaber wrote:
Bendir's laws do not apply outside the "inner walls". It is not metagaming any guards to PvP outside of the inner walls where the racial gates restrict entrance. Do not expect DMs to enforce this, because it is not a rule, IC or OOC.


This is extremely regressive to everything that the DMs in the past and the Bendir playerbase have been trying to co-operate together to fix a very toxic, bitter-held issue. Is this the consensus of the whole team? Why has this suddenly changed?

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=76091&p=1204193&hilit=#p1204193

The link shows the details on how it's currently been held. Hackums was a DM at the time. Note that this was before anything was solved, and still hasn't been as the topic was locked. Regardless that the situation has cooled down, I strongly feel that a sudden change moving backwards will only end up in a mess...

1) The laws have always applied inside and outside the first wall. The DMs have actively encouraged the Bendir Playerbase to enforce their own laws inside and outside the gates. In this case, inside and outside the 'inner-walls.' How can this suddenly not be a IC rule when it's what we've worked with for the past couple of years now?

2) We understand that DMs don't have the time for everything, and that they can't be in two places at once, but we've been told time and time again to poke a DM to help us enforce those laws. Screenshot when we see metagaming. This also leads to point 3.

3) The DMs have helped enforce the rules in the past because it's inevitable. What about NPC guards? Blatantly ignoring the guards is metagaming, and that includes bans too, so we were told. What makes them any different to NPC guards in Cordor, Kohlingen, Wiltun etc...?

The issue in the link above has been expressed time and time again. Unless I'm mistaken, to say that we can't apply the laws outside the racial gate is completely regressive. I hope you don't take offense to this, but I am skeptical of your post.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 10:54 AM 

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The fact is Bendir Dale is at a very important junction in the road system and cart system in the game which means we have to make sure the area is accessible to all PCs and can not give any one group control over the entire area. Have complete control over what I goes on inside the inner walls has been and will remain up to the him folk (pc and NPC). Tormak is trying to make sure there is an absolutely clear understanding that the new outer walls do not extend the influence of the the him folk. In other words you will not have the right to ban anyone from using the roads because of these new outer walls. You will not have any say in who can go inside the outer walls and who can use the cart system. However, yes there are NPCs there and for anyone to do PvP there they will need to wait for DM oversight so the NPCs can react accordingly.


 
      
Elyon
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 11:55 AM 



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So it is metagaming guards to PvP outside the 'inner walls', of course without DM supervision as the standard rule. Although I do have leading questions which apply between the space of inner and newly built outer wall.

1) What about laws other than bans? Can the PC militia still deal with threats and force those out who do cause trouble other than PvP? E.G. stealing, summoning demons & undead, shifting into something bad etc. As I know, the IG reasons would be pretty much common sense like keeping the cart drivers and guests safe. In otherwords, are the militia still allowed to deal with trouble on the roads?

2) It's always been that anyone could walk into Bendir, and use the roads and carts despite the new wall. Before banned individuals and groups would be given a chance to move on, using force as a last resort if they choose to linger. Is it still the same? Or now anyone can linger, even if they're a known mass murderer who terrorizes Bendir, and the PC militia can't do anything about it?

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No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 13:27 PM 

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Ok I agree with Elyon on this. I meran we did spend months RPing building a new defense system to protect the outer area from people starting trouble, and it was an effort from the entire hin player base. There are golems and guards outside the inner walls so I am sorry but it is metagamming if you plan to attack or pvp with the thinking they would just stand there and do nothing. It is like saying I can walk in to Cordor North and start to pvp without the guards doing anything about it. Furthermore if it is going to cause problems because if the guards won't enforce anything and we don't get any DM support on the matter. As we have said banned groups or individuals are free to pass through all they want and we even moved the wall so some can move around without having to go through. People can use the carts all they want but if they aren't allowed in the Dale then pass on through don't stick around because I am not the only hin player that is going to attack you if you do. I am just a little upset that all our RP is being tossed out the window because some shady characters are complaining. If you are gonna cause trouble IC expect IC consequences.

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msheeler
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 13:32 PM 

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PvP rules apply both ways. Hin folk can not PvP evil (or asswipe) PCs w/o dm coverage just the same as the evil PCs can not PvP Hin folk.

Make sense?


 
      
No_Dice_13
 
PostPosted: Thu, Mar 17 2016, 13:38 PM 

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I agree pvp rules still apply but it sounded like people were saying that our laws don't apply outside the inner walls, when they do we rped changing the laws, we still rp working on the laws, we built the wall and posted the golems and guards to help enforce that it is the whole reasone for the rp and building of the walls. I just want to have that clarified as it sounds like the guards and golems are just there as decorations.

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Ricket Ashgather - The Hin with Attitude


 
      
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