10 Rogue/10 Fighter/10 SD is better than 16/4/10. Screw sneak attack, you got EWS, better saves and more feats.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

What about a 13 Rogue/ 7 Fighter? For that tasty spare Rogue feat, if he wanted to get some trapping capabilities as well as Crippling Strike.

Yeah, you can trap in combat with the right gear WITHOUT that feat.. but now that Hips has been nerfed, you can't lay a trap then disappear immediately after to change your gear again. Might be a worthy investment?

10 Fighter gives one more epic feat.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

And couldn't you... take an Epic Skill Focus Set Trap in that extra bonus feat? Purely hypothetical. It could be a wasted feat, and I'm not arguing that. It just interested me a bit, that's all!

Well, I'd personally take Skill Mastery if I was making a PC for setting traps mid-combat.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Good point, indeed.

Any thoughts on the ranger versions?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

In the days of old, I used to play a 7 Rogue/10 Ranger/13 SD. The fighter version is superior.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Yeah after laying it out it seems so. You save some feats and gain Favored Enemies, which is nice and all, but it screws up the skills and such. Just something to mull over anyways haha.

With the 10 rogue/10 fighter/10 SD, is that only 8 Fighter in pre-epic? Or less?

----------

Oh! And! I'm thinking over the Rogue/SD/Fighter build and I cannot decide how to progress. I'm working 13/4/13 so far, and all was good, had a free pre-epic. Then swapped to 13/4/16 and have just a free pre-epic feat (essentially the same just swapping levels haha). Current feats (both builds):

Ambidex, Dodge, Finesse, Mobility, TWF, WF, ITWF, Blind Fight, Imp Crit, Weap Spec
EWF, Armor Skin, Epic Shadowlord, Epic Dodge, ESF: Hide, Epic Prowess, ESF: MS

Any ideas?

I'm still tossing around the idea of either 11/6/13 or 9/8/13 for Epic Shadowlord, as that's part of the point of the build.


edit: I'm considering Luck of Heroes for the unused pre-epic feat, as I cannot think of anything else. Essentially this:

Pre-epic feats: Luck of Heroes, Ambidex, Dodge, Finesse, Mobility, TWF, WF, ITWF, Blind Fight, Imp Crit, Weap Spec
Epic feats: EWF, Armor Skin, Epic Shadowlord, Epic Dodge, ESF: Hide, Epic Prowess, ESF: MS

Differences:
13 Rogue/4 Fighter/13 SD
Hitpoints: 222
Skillpoints: 280
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 14/11/27
Saving Throw bonuses: Traps: +4
BAB: 21

Disable Trap 33(37), Heal 33(33), Hide 33(51), Move Silently 33(51), Open Lock 33(41), Set Trap 20(30), Tumble 30(38), UMD 30(30), remaining skillpoints 35

10 Rogue/4 Fighter/16 SD
Hitpoints: 228
Skillpoints: 274
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 14/11/27
Saving Throw bonuses: Traps: +3
BAB: 21

Disable Trap 33(37), Heal 33(33), Hide 33(51), Move Silently 33(51), Open Lock 33(41), Set Trap 20(30), Tumble 30(38), UMD 30(30), remaining skillpoints 29

Essentially they are the same. The difference is the first gets +6 skillpoints and +1 vs traps, the second +6 hitpoints, lol
I'm leaning towards the second, to be honest. Any thoughts? Mostly on the Luck of Heroes feat, really.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

My 10/10/10 build had 6rogue/8SD/6fighter pre-epic. Has just enough feats and just enough AB. That leaves 2 fighter feats for epic. But my builds suck so not sure if that's a good way to go about it.

Speaking of sucky builds, along a similar line but unrelated to the SD-heavy builds above: how's 16rogue/6SD/8Fighter? That's 10rogue/4SD/6fighter pre-epic, exact same number of feats and AB (saves near enough) as 10/10/10 but trades the higher-level SD abilities for some 3d6 more sneak. Worth it? I really can't decide between 10 and 6 SD on an RP level so I'm hoping I missed something mechanical. Hope that was enough information there, but I can post the build plans if necessary.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

One thing you want to do is to (if possible) take your classes that have a 3/4 BAB progression in sets of 4 in pre-epic. So, you'd want to do either 12 rogue/4 SD/4 fighter or 8 rogue/4 SD/8 fighter in pre-epic for that build (I'd suggest the first option I listed, probably). You don't have to take the classes in a particular order, you just end up with a higher BAB is you do multiple of 4. In epic levels it doesn't matter cause BAB is a 1/2 progression regardless of classes.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

10 rogue / 4 SD / 6 fighter is the same BAB as 12/4/4.

_________________
Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Heh like Derk said, 12rog/4SD/4fighter gives 16AB, and that's the same as both pre-epic spreads I posted. 8/4/8 gives just one more and leaves less fighter bonus feats for epic in 10/10/10 (though since I might be taking prowess with that feat it could go either way). 3/4 progression is stupidly quirky like that, I was amazed how many combinations turned out to 16.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

It's really sad when we know what kind of combinations using 3/4 quirkness that gives us what BAB at epic but xD WE ARE ALL NERDS! BWAHAHA!

That said, I think 13 Rogue / 7 Fighter / 10 SD is something you might consider if you want 2 rogue feats you can't get with SD (Crippling Strike and Skill Mastery for example!)

WELL THEN! I stand corrected XD

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Penciling out a dwarf to replace my soon-to-be discontinued druid in the rotation. Yonkin "Two-Ton" Bonegristle

Question #1
Survivability on a heavy DR Dwarven Defender Tank if he doesn't use a shield? Build is noted below. Looking at an AC of around 45 in Heavy Plate with a mixture of +4/+5 gear. This includes Tumble/Armorskin but does not include Defensive Stance or Haste. I know Stance can be buggy at times if you aren't careful or lucky, but in my experience it works most of the time and he'll have 9 uses/day. I figure I should be able to keep AC around 50 consistently if I'm mindful with a combination of the two. Physical DR should be -/26 to -/31 depending on the damage type in the endgame and I should be able to squeeze some elemental resistances into gear. He would certainly be in the tank position in any party. If you've done a heavy DR DwD two handering or dual wielding, speak up!

I've tried going shieldless before, mainly on two handers and failed utterly but they didn't have any base DR or Defensive Awareness which should help a good bit when you are surrounded by sneakers.

I wanted to go with a concept of a barrel bellied dwarf who wouldn't use no pansy arsed shield no-how, no-way. Hiding behind a wall of iron, seriously? You ARE the wall of iron! No shield means either two handering or dual wield and I opted for dual wield. I originally thought of dual light hammers since hammers are "dwarven flavored" but they just seemed too "light" to be appropriate for someone named "Two-Ton" and it would be offensive if some puny little goblin or stringy armed gnome could wield the same weapon he does. He needs something only a burly manly man's man among men could wield . So, I'm now in the mood to try a dual weapon. I know they mostly suck, or in the case of the Diremace totally suck, but compared to dual light hammers the relative suckishness is benign. Assuming the answer to Question #1 is - you'll survive even without a shield that takes us to Question #2.

Question #2
Weapon choice. There are three of them and my considerations are RP feasibility, coolness, utility, and availability.
General Benefits are the higher base damage of D8 vs D4, plus a single Flame Weapon scroll or GMW works for the whole weapon. Plus, since they remain generally unpopular, if Epic versions of the weapons exist on Amia they will come at a bargain price. Negatives generally amount to going without a shield at all times hence question #1 above. So, looking at the options I have in no particular order:

Utility
Diremace - 20 crits and 2x. Bludge
Doubleaxe - 20 crits and 3x. Slash.
Doublesword - 19-20 crits and 2x. Slash.
Diremace is the bottom feeder in this group even as a bludge type. I rank the other two a tie.

RP Feasibility
Diremace - Sure thing. Club me once, club me twice.
Doubleaxe - Axe + Dwarf = Yes, though the description of the weapon indicates an orcish heritage. *spits*
Doublesword - A couple of dwarven dieties use swords though they don't seem to have garnered a reputation as a dwarven favorite.

Coolness
Diremace is probably the coolest looking.
Doubleaxe looks badass.
Doublesword brings up the rear.
Admittedly I haven't tried the crafting appearances so there may be some cool stuff in the Hak.

Availability
Diremace – Warforged exists. I've never seen a good one in ordinary loot. Ever.
Doubleaxe - A couple of decent ones around but nothing to write Mom about. There is a Warforged I think
Doublesword - Epic versions? Dunno. “Life and Death” is in the lootbins which is nice for PvM which is about all I care about.

Could be that I've mucked up the above, especially on availability and rp feasibility so your comments are welcomed.


The Build:
F9/DD10/R1 > F10/DD18/R2

STR - 16 > 20
DEX - 15
CON - 18 > 21
INT/WIS/CHA - 8 to 10

Feats:
Luck of Heroes
WFocus
Dodge
Toughness
Imp Crit
Ambidexterity
2 Weapon fighting
Imp. 2 Weapon Fighting
W. Spec
Great Fort
Blindfight
Exotic Proficiency
Epic WFocus
Epic W Spec
EDR I/II/III
Armorskin
ESF Discipline

Skills - Discipline/Tumble/UMD

AB: 45 with Bless/Aid.
HP: Around 690 buffed.
Fat Phenotype - naturally, and I'm keeping the blocky "Fists of Doom" because that's what his hands actually look like! He's got fists the size of a pot roast. I'm thinking of the imagery of a powerlifter. Massive legs, hands that could palm your entire head, complete with the powerbelly that's round but hard as rock, and a thick leather belt 6 inches wide holding it up.

Let's hear it.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

It's very nice if you don't care to take more than 6 SD, yep.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Suuuuune, dost thou think Luck of Heroes is worth the spare feat I have free?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

No, take Great Fortitude. It's better.

And drop Heal so you can raise Spot instead, then change Epic Skill Focus: MS to Spot.

imo, you should still drop Rogue to 11 and take 6 Fighter for EWS. +4 damage is better than 1d6 sneak.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

13 Rogue 11 SD 6 Fighter it is. Just because I want to take Skill Mastery and Crappling strike and have no intention of dual wielding.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I was wondering about Great Fort since it's a sneaker/epic dodger, wasn't sure if +2 Fort was worth it on that sort of build, since it's only 16 total then lol

As for the 11 vs 13 Rogue, it was for the feat rather than the sneaks. If I go 11 Rogue/6 Fighter/13 SD it looses either Armor Skin or Epic Prowess (since EWF and ESF and Epic Shadowlord are not going anywhere lol). I still think I like 10/4/16 better. More SD, and it's fitting the concept more.

I was considering Spot, too, just Heal is really nice haha. Though of course it can be dropped some. I'm only concerned with the usefulness of 40-ish spot?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Er... you wear items to boost your Spot? 33 skill ranks + 10 ESF + 50 from items... come on man, this is obvious stuff.

You'd drop Epic Prowess for EWS. I've never had Epic Prowess on my SD, and while the lack of that 1 AB gives me much sadness, I rarely have trouble hitting anyway. What you need is damage, because you're a dexterity build with a low amount of sneak attack. And this is coming from a guy who's played a PC with 5d6 sneak attack for a long time now... you need all the damage you can get! It can be painful sometimes when those dirty 16 Rogue/8 Fighter/6 SDs or finesse WMs are always out-damaging you.


Weren't you doing it for Epic Shadowlord? You need 13 SD for that.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Shield-less is fine, but... you won't be doing any damage with that build. Like, nothing. Why not try the Fighter/DD/WM instead and use something like a heavy flail for badassness? I can imagine it being boring to tears to level otherwise, since you'll just be there chipping away forever.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Yeah for some reason I remember building someone an AA/Bard/Dancer in the vein of Reh'cra and thought I'd only given it 11 SD. Silly me I had it down at 13 SD 8 Bard 9 AA.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Well obviously gear ;p Just was not sure on the usefulness of a sneaker having to swap gear to be a spotter instead. Just seemed counter productive to me lol

On the Prowess and such, that's kind of what I was thinking. Just wanted to confirm Thanks!

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Shooting for 16 SD so what about 8 Rogue/6 Fighter/16 SD?

Weapon Finesse, Ambidex, Dodge, TWF, Mobility, WF, Great Fort, ITWF, Imp Crit, Blind Fight, Weapon Spec
EWF, EWS, Armor Skin, Epic Shadowlord, Epic Dodge, ESF: Hide, ESF: Spot

Disable Trap 33(37), Heal 23(23), Hide 33(51), Move Silently 33(41), Open Lock 33(41), Set Trap 19(29), Spot 33(43), Tumble 30(38), UMD 25(25)

Hitpoints: 236
Skillpoints: 262
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 15/10/25
Saving Throw bonuses: Traps: +3
BAB: 21

That nets Epic Shadowlord, 16 SD, and EWS. Looks a little funky, since I had to take 5 Fighter in pre-epic, but gets the skills and everything all neat and tidy. The only thing that sucks is that the additional Fighter levels drop Reflex by 1, though it's not a big deal.

The 16 SD is what makes it hard, but I'm not willing to drop that haha

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Drop Open Lock and Heal a bit, crossclass 15 Spellcraft.

Enjoy permanent +3 saves to magic.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

lol that's terrible, Sune XD

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

It's only terrible if you don't/can't justify it.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Haha, I know. After a quick thought, I can't, though we'll see. I do like the 20+ Heal skill, though. Healing wounds in a jiffy is so nice.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

You should give it more than a passing thought, especially considering you want to make an epic shadowdancer here. How would you ever work on delving into the spell-like abilities of shadowdancing to develop your own stuff if your PC doesn't know a bloody thing about spellcraft in the first place?

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Oh I know! That was one of the things I was considering. It has some time, since that will be more of a late-build sort of thing, so it can slowly get accumulated as the character progresses. My 'we'll see' was more concrete than it sounded lol

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Sune,
I did some math on average base damage per hit (no crits figured) and it works out as follows with easily obtainable gear and no buffs except a standard flameweapon scroll:

Primary Hand - 4 attacks - Average damage = 39 per hit
Off Hand - 2 attacks - Average damage = 33 per hit

Thats all-weather damage not dependent on flanking or crits. Obviously better with any party buffs whatsoever. I grant you that's pitiful for a damage cannon but I didn't think it awful for a tankish sort of chap.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

If you'd be able to stand dealing that kind of damage, then go for it. I just think it'd be kinda depressing when a barbarian can resist a whole lot of damage like that build but deal out a heck of a lot more, especially when you consider Mighty Rage HP and utility with Terrifying Rage. The quicker things die, the less damage they do after all.

Not that I'm saying you should change around your character concept or anything. It's why I suggested WM... you can still go with what you wanted and all, but deal out a fair bit of damage too.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Just a thought, dual wielding handaxes with a build based on that idea could be axe-tremely fun..

_________________
The mark of a moderate man
is freedom from his own ideas.
Tolerant like the sky,
all-pervading like sunlight,
firm like a mountain,
supple like a tree in the wind,
he has no destination in view
and makes use of anything
life happens to bring his way.

The benefit of two handering is it obviates the need for 15 Dex, nets you 1.5x Str mod and saves 3 feats. Then again you lose the 2 offhand attacks. WM means I lose DD18 I presume since you need a minimum if F6 to qualify on top of WM7. Then there is the issue of lost Tumble/UMD. I will need to pencil it out.

I've kinda got a hankering for dwarf with a mean looking diremace but I dunno now if that will be possible. Problems are needing either ranger levels or 15 Dex and 3 feats to make it viable. Then you are faced with no shield survivability which is why I originally went high Con EDR3 and heavy DD. But then you realize that your AB is coming from STR so you cannot go DEX based and need high STR too. It's a conundrum.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

I've played a Fighter7/WM5/DwD18 two-handering a heavy flail for a few years now. I decided to drop AC altogether because it would have gotten costly, and I wanted to have a functional Spot with my primary gearset. Now with the Shield of Triad around I've come to think that it would have been better just to go sword n' board instead. The slashing DR is specially juicy. But really, he does just fine without the AC, although he can't solo any hard hitting critters.

But if you're not going WM, don't two-hand.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Fighter/DwD/Knight commander maybe? The stuff mosh suggested a few pages back looked good. Some kind of Úber tank soaking the damage up, with zero ac and using the spiky aura that does damage on enemy hit.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

11 Fighter 14 DwD 5 Master Scout also looks fun.

Con or Str based would work.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Is the Epic Shadowlord feat worth taking? The other feat I'd be taking instead is Epic Focus Spot.

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Just lurking about!

I'd take spot even if the Epic Shadowlord feat was worth anything.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I would always go for spot, unless your RP dictates getting an epic shadowlord. It's one of the best skills in the game, the one that you'll never regret having three digits of.

I guess taking 20 SD is shadowy enough as it is. I'll go for the spot then. Thanks!

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Just lurking about!

If you're going 20 SD levels, then make room in your build elsewhere for Epic Shadowlord.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

13 SD 8 Bard 9 AA

or

13 SD 16 Rogue 1 Ranger

or

13 SD 6 Fighter 11 Rogue

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Meh, I'm gonna have a look at an EDR3 Barb with Diremace and Mighty Rage as I have a bit of an RP hook for using a Diremace brewing in my brain. Less DR but still perhaps enough given the extra DPR he'll be throwing off compared to the original DD version.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Okay, so after a lot of contemplation and such, I have in mind a new build concept I'd like to try out. Alot of my time is put into College nowadays but there is some time I have free time but only a bit so I'd like a little casual PC to go along with my two that are actually involved in something.

My thoughts and wants are on the concept of a.. hunter.. warden type thing? Lol I know that may sound wierd but let me elaborate. I'm wanting a sort of melee/range build but favors more on the bow. But that doesn't mean he's wimpy with the sword. As for the melee I'd either settle for a small shield and a short sword/longsword or even dual shortswords. I can't really decide which I like best between those two/three. I'm wanting something that can hurt from afar, and then when his prey comes to him, he can hold his own by whipping out his blade(s). I'm wanting spot, and stealth, but not necessarily HiPs. It doesn't play into my concept. Corner sneaking is fine though!

I had in mind something with AA or something? And if that is in the build, then I'd prefer Half-Elf instead of Elf actually. Be something other then a pointy ear for once lol. He can even be roguish (sp). In a simple description, I want a nice melee/range build that isn't completely one sided, but that doesn't try to balance out each so much that both melee and range are below par. I even had a picture and reference, but I seem to have lost both. I'll find it soon.

So, could anyone help me out?

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~Everything has beauty, some just don't look for it~

Looking to make a new siggy! PM me if you want the challenge.

Sounds like you wanta ranger, imo.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Yea, but the only thing that's making me not say Ranger is because the dependance on the Animal companion and that I'd only be good against 5-6 types of enemies =/

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~Everything has beauty, some just don't look for it~

Looking to make a new siggy! PM me if you want the challenge.

You pretty much defined the archetypal ranger. Maybe mix in a little rogue for extra sneak attack damage. (you can sneak with a bow!)

Or if you're ambitious and evil, assassin. Ranger/assassin is a people hunter!

More of a bow user, but not sucky with a sword? Go half-elven fighter/bard/AA, STR-based. ;)