Welcome to the thread where you (the players) can share your thoughts and feelings on any potential changes that should be included with the change to moving Amia to the Enhanced Edition client. Whether you agree or disagree with others opinions/suggestions please try to ensure that any posts remain relevant to the topic at hand.
If you have any questions regarding this feel free to poke me on the discord and I or someone else knowledgeable will get back to you quickly
Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: The Hall of the Mountain King
I don’t know how feasible it would be, but a refined version of the warlock would be neat. Technically a new base class I guess, but it’s already on the server in a butchered version.
Bull strength for rangers would be neat, and if viable to do then maybe we (the community) should consider adding the NWN2 version where you pick a path and so on.
_________________ I am not weird, I am limited edition
Yep. That is a real possibility. In fact is it would be really simple considering we already have everything mapped out and built for Warlock. I am going to say that change will happen later though than sooner. While the current version is a bit wanky in how it is set up it is also still locked behind a DM request. If I made it into a base class I would have to come up with a way of enforcing it being DM request only.
BAB Progression: +1 Fort Save: Low progression (same as rogue / weapon master) Ref. Save: High progression (same as rogue / weapon master) Will Save: Low progression (same as rogue / weapon master) Skill Points: 4 + 1 mod
How it could be implemented with as little fiddling as possible:
* Canny Defense could be made via request, by having special non-tradable requestable duelist-only weapons that would have deflection bonuses above the normal limit for it. For example, a duelist character reaching its max level could request a rapier / dagger with +10 deflection AC (if they have an int modifier of +5). We could even have pre-balanced variations of pre-made weapons at the ready.
* Improved reaction could very well just be gaining Blinding Speed as a free feat (or on an item).
* Free Mobility feat..
* Grace gives +2 reflex. This can be given on that same rapier / dagger weapon when fully maxed as a bonus that does not count towards max weapon power level. AKA, this would be on the pre-balanced requestable non-tradable duelist-only weapons.
* Precise strike.. same. Put that on a weapon as an extra damage bonus on request-only weapons when they reach max level. Having all of the duelist bonuses on the same weapon/weapons will make this easier to keep track of in case of rebuild.
* Flourish.. This will require scripting I think.
* Elaborate parry - who cares...
* Deflect arrow - simple enough. Either script to give it, or put that on the requestable weapons.
Something regarding Crossbows and Rogues, or Rogues and MS even. Really just something to make a Crossbow worthwhile and create another good ranged class aside from AA.
Make Palemasters give proper CL and Spellslots. Maybe every odd level, anything is better than what it is right now.
A bit of a revamp of Animal Companions. (Aka: Let me use something else as a Badger.. Please...)
TAKE THE AUTO DISARM OF TRAPS OFF OF DEATH SLAAD FORM REEEEEEEEE
An idea for unarmed monks: Give level 20 (Or even higher, idk) Monks an always active enhancement +5 On Unarmed attacks. I think that might make them just a *BIT* more viable, but please do discuss about that or tell me why I'm wrong.
As a heads up it is much, much easier on my end to implement classes that use a lot of the base games feats, etc already in place. Suggestions with minimal custom feats are definitely optimal.
The only way something like that would be possible is if we built all of the feats and spells from scratch. Which is something that I don't have time to do. Unfortunately NWN has a lot of variables that are hard-coded into the engine that we cannot touch or alter no matter what tools we have.
For reference, the Warlock code for all of the widgets runs 10k lines of code. That was the level of coding that was required to make most of its unique abilities.
I think adjusting the Ranger class to be more in line with 3.5 would be a great fix. Basically implementing this. (I know it's not as easy as just adding the Hak, but I linked it for reference)
Depending on how deep we wanted to go with it, I know Arelith lets you choose the TWF path OR the Archery path, which would also be cool. Instead of Ambidex/ITWF, giving Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.
I also think adding a few options for Monk weapons would be good for the server and make use of some weapons that are never used. Clubs to be emulated as Tonfa or Nunchaku are thematic. We have Quarterstaff already, so Spear wouldn't be too crazy either. Things like that.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Grey guards are both rare and rather lacking in unique mechanics compared to a normal Paladin. Most of the grey guard abilities tend to be rp flair. As such they'd probably better serve as a requestable PRC using the Paladin class then a added/scripted PRC. IMO
Not sure how viable they are, and likely not implemented right away, but there are two systems I have liked on other servers I have been on that I think are interesting.
1. One-time Exploration Xp Bonus. When a character enters a new area for the first time, they get a small bonus to their xp for exploring; the next time they enter nothing happens, new areas only. Encourages people to see the server and not just get comfortable / static in one area.
2. Roleplay Xp Bonus. This is something Arelith does do that I like and not sure how others feel about it. When actively roleplaying character gets a small xp bonus / time spent roleplaying. Encourages roleplay as well as hunting / exploring new areas.
Edite: I am also interested in seeing expanded available subraces. Human types and others.
_________________ I play...
Ilharess Tal'afay Tinnerai of Eilistraee Nithlyvia Shadowflame, Absent-Minded Spellblade
Last edited by Kiasyd on Thu, Apr 04 2019, 19:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
lilmarcat wrote:
Grey guards are both rare and rather lacking in unique mechanics compared to a normal Paladin. Most of the grey guard abilities tend to be rp flair. As such they'd probably better serve as a requestable PRC using the Paladin class then a added/scripted PRC. IMO
Completely agreed.
Nontheless, it's going to be my first request on EE if I ever make a new character there. That PrC is just way too cool to pass.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
I'm not entirely sure we can use a PRC to increase your effective Monk level for some of these features (such as Unarmed damage die). The PRC is definitely a good classic. We could probably make our own variant of it though that comes close. Some of the features need some minor improvements to bring them in line with the rest of the server aswell.
Personally a tad biased but I would like to nominate Blighter as an eventual PrC. It was something that also took interest in a few DMs when I made my PrC request but at the time it wasn't able to be considered. Now though it is.
Class Name: Blighter Description: A Blighter is a former druid that has been renounced from their patron diety. Either by choice or against their will and have taken back their divine connection in a maleformed and twisted variation by taking that divine power from the life and energy within nature itself. Prereq: levels in druid (Although given this was taken so poorely by the DM team even though druid levels are directly used in the class's calculations for DCs in spells I could also suggest levels in wizard/sorc/bard given the close relative look to arcanist spells) +4 BAB Restrictions: Any non good alignment
BAB progression: 2/3 (in the link it is +1 but I am suggesting it be lowered for balance reasons) Fort save: .5/level Reflex save: .33/level Will save: .5/level Special abilities, feats:
Plague (Su): At 10th level and higher, a blighter can spread disease over a large area. This ability functions like the contagious touch ability, except that no attack roll is required and it affects all targets the blighter designates within a 20-foot radius. Plague is usable once per day.
Undead Wild Shape (Sp): At 3rd level, the blighter gains a version of the wild shape ability. Undead wild shape functions like the druid’s wild shape ability, except that the blighter adds the skeleton template to the animal form he chooses to transform into. (forms for debate and balancing)
Animate Dead Animal (Sp): This ability, gained at 6th level, functions like an animate dead spell, except that it affects only corpses of animal creatures and requires no material component. It is usable once per day.
Contagious Touch (Su): At 5th level and higher, a blighter can produce an effect like that of a contagious touch spell once per day. She gains one extra use per day of this ability for every two additional blighter levels she acquires.
Blightfire (Su): Starting at 2nd level, as a standard action, a blighter can unleash a scorching blast of fire. This effect deals 5d6 points of fire damage to all creatures within 10 feet (Reflex half; save DC is 10 + blighter’s class level + blighter’s Wis modifier) and ignites flammable objects it touches. Blighters delight in starting wildfires and often use this ability to do so.
Unbond (Sp): Beginning at 8th level, a blighter can temporarily separate a bonded animal or magical beast (such as an animal companion, familiar, or mount) from its master once per day. The target creature must be within 40 feet of both its master and the blighter. If the master fails a Will save (DC 10 + blighter level + blighter’s Wis modifier), the bond terminates as if the servitor had died, though this does not cause experience loss in the case of a familiar. Normally hostile creatures attack their masters but are otherwise unaffected. The bond returns after 1 minute per blighter level, restoring all benefits. Alternatively, the master can regain the servitor through the normal methods of acquisition.
_________________ Arieme - Condemned Blighter and anti-druid Khristina - Bounty Hunter, Blessed of Hoar
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
lilmarcat wrote:
Skill availability
The crux of many powerbuilding issues often resolves around the availability of 3 key skills, Tumble, UMD and Discipline and too a lesser extent Spellcraft (mainly as Spellcraft is already on most relevant Classes). Much of this whole issue stems from people being able to hold on to Skill points and dump them at any level. This in many ways is ingrained into our servers culture and its not my intent to really change that or create a ruling on it.
Discipline, Tumble and UMD - Added to ALL classes.
This. It'd solve my nemesis problem I have with skill dumps.
No more level 1 rogues, monks and bards. Ciao!
YES PLEASE!
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
I don't think UMD should be on there. Tumble anddusc? Maybe. But UMD is, in my mind, almost a rogue specific bonus. (rogues and bards, at least) And with Evasion and tumble coming from a lot more, it means the main reason to dump rogue (or the only, next to sneak attacks) is UMD. There should be, in my opinion, certain class specific bonuses. If you want UMD, dump for it, just like you might dump for spellcraft, taunt, or any number of other skills that are useful to certain classes.
Or should be give every first level class epic spell focus as a bonus feat, because ranger does it? Or meddle with the DC bonus feats, to make them less useful. Personally, yes, it's cool if pureclass options are there, I'm just afraid that it would turn into "pureclass only". Getting a bonus feat at 30, fist of all, makes all ECL classes a lot worse, but also stifles diversity. After all, a skill dump was requured to be RP'd. But as you're showing it, a skill dump would now make a build worse, not improve it with flavor and extra abilities. Why would I take anything other than 30 Cleric, when I can melee just as well as a "battlecleric", but with more spells (including offensive ones)? Yeah, they're a bit feat-tight, but it's simple enough to pull off. You basically lose KD and ImpCrit. Gain spell slots for it, and have zero point in going anything but 30 Cleric. This basically extends to all casters. There's little point in going anything besides the full 30, because whatever you'd usually use the 6 or 7 other levels on isn't going to be worth the bonuses for extra spells. Why should a bard with no fighter be just as good at fighting at the 25/5 version?
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
Yeah, I'm kinda ... confused by your post, but let's leave it.
The main argument should be why a character with level 1 rogue should be as good at tumbling as level 30 rogue. Makes no sense, right? Why a mage with 1 level of ranger should be as disciplined as level 30 ranger.
Skill dumping is BS. Period. It's not about diversity, it's not about flavour, it's purely about mechanical advantage. PURELY.
So there is either a solution lil'cat proposed, which I personally like, or there is another solution I like even more - block skill points saving. You gotta spend them when you get them.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Well, I probably didn't word my post very well... First part is about UMD, and how I don't think UMD should be availible to all. Tumble and disc? Yeah. But especially with pureclass giving you good benefits, it's something that is restricted to certain classes, and you actually lose something by going for it. And it really isn't neccessary for survival. Is it handy? Hell yeah. But I've had very few builds that couldn't manage without it. None, if you assume that haste (10) potions are possible to buy in bulk from mages.
The other thing is splashing a class for its benefits. (Most often, fighter for some extra BAB and feats) That's flavor. You want to have a character that's good at fighting -and- buffing a party? Go Bard/Fighter. You want a straight-up buffer who can somewhat hold his own? Go 30 Bard. With the proposed changes, there's little point going for a fighter dump. You get the same BAB with pure Bard as you do with Bard/Fighter. The three feats are a nice luxury to have, but not neccessary. Same goes for clerics. I don't know Druids enoguht o judge there, and pureclass monks would actually be cool, and they are a martial class, so I feel like they could actually use it. But clerics and Bards aren't really front-line fighters. And the only thing stopping them from becoming ones is the one attack. (Yes, the can without the one attack, but it's less strong) Hell, even Divine Strength was nerfed, exactly to make Clerics not absolutely badass at both melee -and- magic. They have to choose one. And the AB is a large part of that choice. I really don't think Bards and Clerics should get the free attack.
Heres some examples of powerbuilds for comparison under my new changes. Assuming 1 Epic caster level = 1 spell for day.
30 Cleric vs 23 Cleric / 6 COT / 1 Fighter (16/3/1 pre epic) 7 Caster levels, 7 Spells per day, 1 Bonus epic feat vs 2 Bonus preepic feats, Divine Wrath, access to Weapon Spec., 6 Fort, 5 Reflex, 2 Will save Additionally most spells after level 21 tend to stop gaining power
30 Bard vs 25 Bard/5KC 5 Caster levels, 5 Spells per day, +7 Bard song, 1 reflex, 1 non wasted preepic feat, 3 bonus Epic feats vs +6 Bard song, full suite of KC abilities, 3 Fort, 2 will, full armor and martial proficiencies
30 Fighter vs 1Rogue/29 Fighter 1 BAB, 1AB, 1DMG, 1AC, 1 Bonus Epic feat, 1 Fort vs 2 Reflex, 24 skill points, 1d6 sneak attack, Disable traps DC>34. The Fighter probably wins here I'm just using this example to help point out the Rogue has a whopping 8 base skill points, sneak attack as a base class and hidden little feature regarding being the only one capable of disabling traps of DC35+. Additionally with the changes to Improved Evasion/Defensive roll you can now pick up both as early as 2Rogue/2Fighter (in that order) if so desired.
Looking at Druids. Pure Druids currently suck, atleast compared to dipping Monk (which has perfect saves if your dipping preepic for some reason) due to UBAB. Even post change my Druids 28Druid/1Monk/1Fighter would come out ahead, but only slightly now.
I'd agree with the first two, I forgot that DC and KC exist. It still means fighter is a somewhat meh class to dip into, in those circumstances, but it opens up more avenues than locking the old ones, now that I read through the ideas a dozen more times.
I'll disagree with rogue. The benefit of disarming traps of DC 36 and higher is useless. You're out of combat anyway, when you're disarming traps, which means you usually take 20 and can gear for the disarm attempt. And at that point, you can recover any trap of any DC. The only exceptions are either traps that couldn't be recovered, but can be disarmed (which I've never heard of, and I doubt a DM is going to beat players over the head if the ranger/MS trapper with trapper job and triple-digit trap skills is trying to destroy a trap that physically couldn't be recovered, like, say, a hole in the ground with spikes at the bottom, and some form of tarp over it...) The other exception would be traps of such high DCs that the +10 DC difference really does something. In which case... You need to be a dedicated rogue trapper, and ESF would make the difference, etc, etc, etc. It's effectively a "rogues who don't want to use traps themselves get to not step on traps for 10 DC easier". and few people ever care about that. I do think giving UMD to rogues (and bards, and assassins, if you want to keep it somewhat closer to base NWN) helps making rogues a bit more unique. And very few classes/builds can't survive without UMD. It's just enough of a luxury that people want to have it. So I'd suggest either keeping UMD as it is, and let people decide whether it's worth losing the bonuses of going higher into their class, to 30, and getting feats, BAB, and a few other bonuses, or whether they want the easier route and going for UMD, losing out on level 30 goodness. The second option I'd propose, that might be a bit less harsh, would be to give UMD to all classes, but as cross-class-skills. The 10-15 points you need to use buffing items are trivial to get for a rogue, but are a bit tougher to take on any other class. It still rewards rogues, but doesn't lock pure-classed characters out of buffs.
After all, UMD is mostly a "jack-of-all-trades" thing. It's what makes rogues rogues, in my mind. Item restrictions exist, and rogues are so well-versed in using them, they can use all kinds of stuff. But why would a wizard know how to use a divine wand? If we're saying that, I'd even prefer to axe item restrictions entirely, and give everyone free access to all items. After all, if everyone's special, that's just another way of saying no-one is. so why should I pay to not be special?
While we appreciate the fervor behind your balance change suggestions, Lilmarcat, this is meant to be a thread for suggesting new PRCs. We're not going to be doing big balance changes at this time, and it really probably should have been in its own topic.
So please stick with the Prestige Classes, guys! I can split the posts into a new one if you guys want to keep discussing potential future balance change ideas.
_________________
Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
I would love to see the Favoured Soul and Arch Mage.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
(This is entirely based from Races of Faerûn variant, p. 188
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Is it possible with EE to make shields less mandatory? A bonus to AC for every 5 or 10 points spent in Parry, or +4 to dmg, +2 to AB for using a weapon without a shield? Anything along the lines of making using a single weapon or a two handed weapon actually cool again.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Is it possible with EE to make shields less mandatory? A bonus to AC for every 5 or 10 points spent in Parry, or +4 to dmg, +2 to AB for using a weapon without a shield? Anything along the lines of making using a single weapon or a two handed weapon actually cool again.
POTM had that for parry, 5 points +1 armour. Maybe we can do the same here?
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
So long as it's capped between 6-8 ac it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Halfed for 2h and dual wield would bring them up competitively. The AC might be dodge though, a scripter might have to chime in to correct me if it can be innate
Bladesingers and duelists might need tweaking around the change as they traditionally get their INT as AC instead.
The level of AC that people that can get on Amia vs the average AB is already heavily skewed towards AC. If we give them another 4-6 AC on top of what is already there no one but weapon masters and AA will be able to consistently hit people.
The difference between a fully geared/buffed two-hander and a sword/shield user is just 3 AC. Even adding a few AC to two handers would make sword/shield useless. That is something I have seen first hand on different servers where you -always- go two handers because the 3 AC difference was reduced by only a few points.
Only route I can see that would not cause a cascade of issues is adding some more damage to two-handers.
I rather solve the issue with a PRC specifically to up the damage of two-handers.
Joined: 17 Oct 2011 Location: The Hall of the Mountain King
Maverick00053 wrote:
The level of AC that people that can get on Amia vs the average AB is already heavily skewed towards AC. If we give them another 4-6 AC on top of what is already there no one but weapon masters and AA will be able to consistently hit people.
A bit off topic but... Maybe Rangers don't need a buff, maybe AC builds need a nerf!
_________________ I am not weird, I am limited edition
How is the difference only 3 AC? A shield gives you 1-3, plus a +4-+5 enhancement bonus. So it's generally a max of 8 AC. I get what you're saying about the AC/AB ratio, and I really think it's already broken as is, but 3 AC difference just isn't the case. Unless you're talking about expertise, but in that case, you're basically giving the opponent free 5 AC as well. Yeah, at some point, it just doesn't matter anymore, because either way, you're just hitting on a 20, but claiming you're only losing 3 AC isn't really true. You're losing 8 AC, of which you can regain 5 at the cost of 5 AB. Which a person with a shield can do as well.
Ah. Yeah. You are right there is the AC from the shield base and the enhancement is still separate. My mind was thinking that it counted towards the cap. So upwards of 8 AC different between the two.
Well 6-8. I prefer the suggestion of buffing the damage of 2h weapons instead of their AC though. Homogenizing builds is never a good thing, even if one is underutilized compared to another.
A good start would actually be altering how divine might functions with 2h weapons. They should give 1.5x charisma modifier bonus damage divine might, rather than the standard 1.0x charisma modifier that all weapons get now. This would help out a few builds that invest heavily in charisma to make up the lost AC from a lack of a shield with divine shield.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
Elwyn has 47 AC without a shield, the average AB is just a little under that. Adding +3 AC to boost it to 50, or +6 to boost is to 53 puts it below par of an actual shield user who can get up to 55, so it's still worthwhile taking a shield, but it's just as feasible to go straight up two handed as well.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
Some old classics from NWN2 with some minor changes to adapt to NWN1. Impromptu sneak attack might need a look at for potential cheesey abuse. Frenzied beserker looks deliciously terrifying for DPS. Probably needs some balance testing.
Some old classics from NWN2 with some minor changes to adapt to NWN1. Impromptu sneak attack might need a look at for potential cheesey abuse. Frenzied beserker looks deliciously terrifying for DPS. Probably needs some balance testing.
I moved this post from the finished classes and balance discussion!
Jes wrote:
*looks at all the dwarven Dwarven Defenders running around*
*all...2 of them in the last few years?*
Might be an exaggeration, haha! But there really are few dwarves running around as it is. Let alone Dwarven Defenders. I do see your point in this, Budly. Maybe we can look into adding a racial PrC for all the races. So maybe we could get a few suggestions for these supported playable races in the suggestion topic (if we theoretically assume Warslinger for halflings):
Poor Dwarves deserve some love ;( Extremely underrated race!
Fey Waveriders Fey Courtier
Some of these will be hard but I am sure we can always twist things around a bit. Humans gonna be hard, cause they are so spread out and diversified in the setting! But...Netherese Archivist from Player's Guide to Faerûn
Gnomes! Chimeric Champion of Garl Glittergold Companion of the Dead Divine Prankster Gnome Artificer
Goblin Stonedeath Assassin
Half Elves has a lot of cross racial with Elves and Drow I noticed.
Half Orcs Eye of Gruumsh Fiend Binder Hexer (Goblins too I think it was) Menacing Brute
Good/Evil outisder. Glorious Servitor
Repitilian? Scaled Horror! Not even joking, its called that!
Windwalker for Air Genasi
https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/c ... sses.shtml The ggreat part here is that they have a source on the classes! Probably not all fit in but they all can be tweaked. The Windwalker can probably be adjusted for all Genasi types since it seems to only be for Air right now. I think there is some Drow in there too. Saw something.
_________________ Plays: Sylveera : Sun Elven fury packed in an Arcane Archer, not a Drow, promise. Tetrik : Greed incarnate in a Duergar. Budly : Has gone to a better place. Barrililath : Shadowy Drow, probably less Drow than Sylv ever be.
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