AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

First off - a wierdly relevant question.

I ~think~ some forms of undead involve the soul of a deceased person, and actually prevent the soul of the deceased from travelling to kelemvors realm. Is anyone aware of whether this is the case or not?

That question sheds light on the relationship between necromancy and fear, as i see it.

See I know necromancy does lots of fun things with souls e.g. raise dead. So when i noticed Cause Fear was necromancy school - not enchantment (!) I thought Humm. Is this magic summoning fear out of somebody's ~soul~?

Because fear out of somebody's mind would surely be enchantment. I was really surprised when i saw Cause Fear wasnt enchantment, and would have thought Enchantments to compel fear would have been more prominent.

I would answer this myself with a gutload of pnp research but my 3.0 / 3.5 pdfs were destroyed when all four of my amia computers simultaneously exploded a few months back, so im devoid of sourcebooks Q.Q

I tackled this issue a little in my thread about shadows/undead. It's hard to get a definitive source but it seems that converted (wights, vampires) or willingly-afflicted undead (liches, necropolitans - though I don't know if the latter are FR-compatible) retain their souls, though often twisted by the process.

The Raise Dead spell is Conjuration, specifically the sort which involves restoration (which, usually, involves positive energy). I've actually found that in general, Necromancy has more to do with the manipulation of negative energy, and it is through this that it manipulates undead. Animate dead involves suffusing a corpse with negative energy to turn it into an undead, with no soul being involved - near as I can tell. Create undead (eg: summoning wraiths etc) is a bit trickier since those undead have more of a mind and therefore might involve souls, but I argue that that spell involves using negative energy as something of a bridge or perhaps a base, letting the undead traverse from the negative plane or simply building one from the mass of negative energy.

So, by my theory, negative energy accounts for almost all spells in the school... but, then we get to Fear spells. It could be a design oversight but let's overlook that. It could be using negative energy to construct or briefly summon a spirit. Or it could be something like using the inherent nature of negative energy (which is destructive, anti-life, and representative of death) to evoke primal fear.

But my theory might be complete bollocks.

I'll highlight my interest is on magical fear, specifically. This is interesting stuff though.

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it seems that converted (wights, vampires) or willingly-afflicted undead (liches, necropolitans - though I don't know if the latter are FR-compatible) retain their souls, though often twisted by the process.

I'm not sure on this, i think you can have a vampire as the husk of a person whose soul actually passed off to kelemvor when they died. I believe shades might actually be souls since they are ghosts who cant move on (hence incorporeal). I thought intelligent undead actually had their soul removed from them, and the intelligent undead continues as a soulless evil husk while the soul goes to kelemvors realm and then whatever heaven / hell associates with their faith (or the wall) Specifically i was sure liches are actually soulless... one reason they are evil as hell.

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The Raise Dead spell is Conjuration, specifically the sort which involves restoration (which, usually, involves positive energy).

Ow wow I epic derped. Thats one of my biggest derps ever. But... that actually makes it a little stranger for me to associate fear as a necromancy school spell (and not enchantment).

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So, by my theory, negative energy accounts for almost all spells in the school... but, then we get to Fear spells. It could be a design oversight but let's overlook that. It could be using negative energy to construct or briefly summon a spirit. Or it could be something like using the inherent nature of negative energy (which is destructive, anti-life, and representative of death) to evoke primal fear.

Could be. I just think that if a spell can drive fear into someone so powerful they'll claw a door down to escape - and not be enchantment? Then something has to be at play, here.

Regarding vampires: I think what you say about husks applies to vampire spawns, but vampires themselves are powerful and seem to possess personalities, though they're usually forced under the control of their sire vampire (and once that sire dies, they become free-willed). Vampire spawns arise when the victim is too weak to be a full vampire (that is, their level is too low), so I'd think that would be because their soul is so heavily abused by the transformation that they appear to not actually have souls.

As for why Fear is not under Enchantment... Perhaps because Enchantment is always about directly influencing the mind, from the inside - tweaking their brain to see "foe" as "friend", driving them to follow someone's orders utterly... whereas there are other mind-affecting spells like the Phantasms of Illusion magic, and it seems Fear of Necromancy is yet another different thing... Necro/Illusion spells like that could be distinct in that they do their work from the outside, evoking the primal fear responses that lie naturally within the target.

Where a lich's soul is pretty obvious, really. That all important phylactery. I'll go rereading BoVD and Libris see if I can find some concrete answers, but I think the -general- rule is intelligent undead=have a soul (somewhere) unintelligent do not. As for the fear...I dunno, really. Necromancy gets even stranger if you look at the druid spell list. Infestation of Maggots, Poison, Contagion, Healing Sting are all necromancy. Honestly, DnD and NWN especially didn't do the greatest job of placing spells in the correct school. There's many, many inconsistencies if you look. Greater/lesser versions of the same spell being two different schools, for example. I also personally think Healing and resurrection should have been made necromantic, rather than a Conjuration subschool. Cheesy way out to allow clear good magic/evil magic delineations rather than leaving in a potential moral grey area. It might be worth having a DM with an ounce of common sense go through the spells and assign a "real" spellschool to each for RP purposes, but there's pros and cons to that like all things. I'm curious as to the staff stance, as well

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I ~think~ some forms of [summoned] undead involve the soul of a deceased person, (sic)

No.

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Is this magic summoning fear out of somebody's ~soul~?

The hell? No. It's CAUSING FEAR. Read the name.

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Specifically i was sure liches are actually soulless... one reason they are evil as hell.

Wrong again. soul has nothing to do with being evil or not

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Necro/Illusion spells like that could be distinct in that they do their work from the outside, evoking the primal fear responses that lie naturally within the target.

Could be, Could be that Enchantment doesnt actually provoke the instincts but something necromantic "hits the primal instinct triggers". Maybe enchantment doesnt hit the instincts, only the mind, so its not so strong on fear.

I'm really interested to know if there are enchantment school fear spells that exist, as a counterpoint to the necromancy 'fear'

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It might be worth having a DM with an ounce of common sense go through the spells and assign a "real" spellschool to each for RP purposes, but there's pros and cons to that like all things.

The same spell schools are reflected in the 3.5 players handbook, which was post-revision off the 3.0 handbook. So the original game designers have not only put thought into these schools, they have revised the game edition and maintained them. The core handbook "symbol of fear" is necromancy also.

TormakSaber wrote:

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Specifically i was sure liches are actually soulless... one reason they are evil as hell.

Wrong again. soul has nothing to do with being evil or not

Libris Mortis under the lich section comments about "Good Lich" Variant, I belive the idea behind it is much like the Baelnorn the elves have(undead defenders,lore keepers...ect)

NinjaClarinet wrote:

As for the fear...I dunno, really. Necromancy gets even stranger if you look at the druid spell list. Infestation of Maggots, Poison, Contagion, Healing Sting are all necromancy. Honestly, DnD and NWN especially didn't do the greatest job of placing spells in the correct school. There's many, many inconsistencies if you look. Greater/lesser versions of the same spell being two different schools, for example. I also personally think Healing and resurrection should have been made necromantic, rather than a Conjuration subschool. Cheesy way out to allow clear good magic/evil magic delineations rather than leaving in a potential moral grey area. It might be worth having a DM with an ounce of common sense go through the spells and assign a "real" spellschool to each for RP purposes, but there's pros and cons to that like all things. I'm curious as to the staff stance, as well

Part of the problem with the system is that the Spell Schools themselves are inconsistent and poorly-separated. As much as I like my theory I admit that a lot of the spells are just "Hey this spell looks evil or skullsy, let's make it necro!" when really the entire school, and Evocation, should fall under Conjuration as all three seem to be about channeling energy from another plane (eg: Fireball), with only subtle and somewhat inconsistent differences. But that's me being overly logical about MAGIC. I shouldn't hope for internal consistency.

TormakSaber wrote:

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I ~think~ some forms of [summoned] undead involve the soul of a deceased person, (sic)

No.

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Is this magic summoning fear out of somebody's ~soul~?

The hell? No. It's CAUSING FEAR. Read the name.

These answers are very clear and that is appreciated.

From what i've been reading while discussing this here I think that Necromancy ~is~ appropriate as the school of magic to cause fear

However this ~does not~ necessarily tie in with other necromancy-related things like positive or negative energy, or undeath.

Perhaps... it relates to the fear of death? Like it touches the mortal fear of death in a way that sends the self-protective instinct of fear reeling.

Thank you as well for the clarification on Liches, i am glad to clear up any misunderstandings I have on that - I am mainly curious as to why the Fear spells are placed under necromancy, because for me this sheds a lot of light onto necromancy and the magic system.

corypx wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

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Specifically i was sure liches are actually soulless... one reason they are evil as hell.

Wrong again. soul has nothing to do with being evil or not

Libris Mortis under the lich section comments about "Good Lich" Variant, I belive the idea behind it is much like the Baelnorn the elves have(undead defenders,lore keepers...ect)

Yeah, valid point. I had to ask about undead and souls because i needed colour on my understanding of the magic of necromancy (life and death).

Learning from the ongoing "Undead and Shadows" thread, which seems to focus more on this "do any undead have a soul or are they all soulless?" - shed some light on how necromancy as a spell school works.

But my real interest is on, why are fear effects necromantic, and i think it ties into specifically the mortal fear, and the mortal fear mechanism. Perhaps its the only instinct strong enough to drive someone from their senses with fear, and maybe necromancers can study that really easily.

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Necromancy

Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.

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Enchantment

Enchantment spells affect the minds of others, influencing or controlling their behavior.

All enchantments are mind-affecting spells. Two types of enchantment spells grant you influence over a subject creature.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm

What I see here is that you want IC knowledge, why not make your own if such can't be found from books. In character theories.

For example my necromancer believes in following:

In every living creature there is positive energy, once the creature dies, negative energy increases in that corpse and is more easily tapped into. By this theorie graveyards would be ideal places to test on necromancy. Harming necromancy spells instead remove some of that positive energy and replace it with negative energy, the energy that is associated with necromancy. Vampiric touch drains life force, positive energy to you and in return gives negative energy to the victim. Making damage.

Cause Fear. [Fear, mind-effecting.]

I dont see any enchantment spells causing fear. Where necromancers try to control trough fear, enchanters try to control trough emotions, influencing mind or direct domination of the mind. I would imagine basic enchantment far more subtle than basic necromancy.

Cause fear I would imagine it being under necromancy because it causes you fear the caster so much that you are scared for your life. Fear of death.

Here are some IC links. They are merely written by a character of a player but perhaps they serve as something that you can use to make your own studies.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=61397
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=61142
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=56054
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=55890
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=55639

This is just speculation, but bear with me: fear effects might be tied to the Necromancy school because of the way a mage would induce them. Yes, I'm aware of the mind-affecting descriptor, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are of the Enchantment school.

Let me elaborate: a ghost, say, might make its presence felt before anyone has a chance to see it. This usually means that those in range feel "the chill of the grave", or more generally they feel cold. This is, pretty much, the sensation a living being has when coming into contact with small amounts of negative energy. How this ties in with spells like Scare and Fear is that the mage might, in fact, be manipulating small amounts of negative energy and using it to unsettle whatever targets the spell was directed upon. The fact that those spells are cone-shaped makes some sense in this context.

But we also have the fact that Mindblank (or similar spells) ward off Fear while Death Ward or Negative Energy Protection don't. But that also makes sense, in a way, since it protects against the fear auras of undead (which in some cases might have something to do with negative energy) and even dragons (which are a result of their frightening appearance), ergo it simply helps the subject retain their cool in situation where they might otherwise have lost it.

Finally, bear in mind that spells in D&D sometimes have effects one wouldn't expect from spells of their school, like Enchantment having a death spell (Power Word: Kill) or, indeed, Necromancy having mind-affecting spells.

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I also personally think Healing and resurrection should have been made necromantic, rather than a Conjuration subschool

I may be wrong, but I believe that the reason healing spells are conjuration rather than necromancy is because they are conjuring positive energy to heal the wounds, or in reverse of that conjuring negative energy to cause wounds.

As for resurrection, isn't that basically conjuring a soul back to the body?

I know this isn't related to the fear question, but it caught my attention.

wouldn't channeling energy be evocation then? That still makes more sense than conjuration, at least in my little corner of the world.

You're channelling positive energy which comes from the positive energy plane (via gods possibly, who are also on other planes usually). So it should all be under Conjuration. Just about everything evocation does should be. Especially fireball.

IDK, maybe its just such an art trying to conjure large amounts of energy in short timeframes for explosive effects that the study was made its own school.

I think the fear of the grave or a natural fear of negative energy sums it up, I like slkNihilus's phrasing.

Note that the intent of me stating a clearly phrased conclusion is to provoke disagreement from anyone with another theory. This is invited.

This makes more sense to me though than it relating to the caster being scary. The spell is inspiring fear of the caster, as opposed to stacking with gimmicky intimidating clothes etc. the caster is wearing.

Though the fear spell may help the casters gimmicky clothing come across as scarier after the spell wears off, if the caster is charismatic.

I'm pretty happy with that theory of the Fear spell as it's consistent with my own interpretation.

serbiris wrote:

You're channelling positive energy which comes from the positive energy plane (via gods possibly, who are also on other planes usually). So it should all be under Conjuration. Just about everything evocation does should be. Especially fireball.

There's a differnece between evoking fire and conjuring it.

When you cast conjuration Flame Arrow you're actually summoning flaming arrows from somewhere else. When you cast Fireball you are Evoking raw magickal force into the shape of fire.

P.s. healing used to be necromancy in 3.0 and 2.0 as a reflection of Necromancy's control of life force. In 3.5 it was altered to be 'summoning positive energy.'

TBH I liked Necromancy better.

TormakSaber wrote:

serbiris wrote:

You're channelling positive energy which comes from the positive energy plane (via gods possibly, who are also on other planes usually). So it should all be under Conjuration. Just about everything evocation does should be. Especially fireball.

There's a differnece between evoking fire and conjuring it.

When you cast conjuration Flame Arrow you're actually summoning flaming arrows from somewhere else. When you cast Fireball you are Evoking raw magickal force into the shape of fire.

That's odd, I was under the distinct impression that fireball specifically involved pulling fire from the elemental plane (which played into how the spell involved a compressed bead of fire that expands). Think this was from... Complete Arcane? Will check. Stand corrected if that's not the case though (and of course one would still have to wonder where all the force evocations come from, which pokes a larger hole in my theory. except Orb of Force is conj...)

It's because you conjure an orb vs evoking it. Small differences. It's also hwy no conjuration spell (in PnP) respects spell resistance: you've not evoked magical force, you're conjjrunig it from somewhere else. It's the difference between stabbing someone with a knife and stabbing someone with a knife you made from magic. One's affected by spell resistance, the other's just a knife!

I had not noticed that before Tormak. Thanks for that cool insight.

I agree with Tormak. Evocation is the creation and manipulation of energy, conjuration on the other hand summons and/or manipulates things that already exist, like channeling the weather patterns to conjure a Storm, creatures from another plane, etc etc.

Although some spells can get foggy... truth is you can't really nail down magic to any specific school. Magic is magic, and although having an insight into another way of thinking about magic such as Spell Focus can grant benefits for some spells... some spells could cover a majority of schools if one decided to twist their descriptions a little. Conjuring a flaming arrow, sure, conjure. But then you're enchanting it to direct it at your foe, and to some it would seem like it was created from nothing (except magic), so it could be seen as evocative to some....

Magic is a fickle witch. ;3 and even then basicly every spell is either conjured from the Weave or tortured souls or some other fountain of magic anyway.

It is worth noting that magic schools are a (demi)human concept, and not necessarily inherent to the magic itself. It's perfectly plausible that spellcasters from some isolated, alien culture did not mechanically respect spellschools and would be unable to pick any spell foci as their way of understanding and casting magic didn't involve the concept at all.

It may very well be that a spell can change school as scholars correct its classification or mages pick up a new way of casting it. They do have basis in reality, like the Conjuration traits Tormak described, but the school of many individual spells is probably still underdetermined by its effects. It could be pure happenstance that the way Cause Fear is cast (somatically and vocally) is very similar to many necromantic spells, and thus it's practiced as part of the necromancy tradition.

I'd just like to point out that the distinction between Evocation and Conjuration isn't exactly as clear as it has been made to seem here. See: Conjuration: Creation

A better differentiation IMO is Evocation specifically creates/manipulates energy and force. Conjuration specifically creates/manipulates matter.

Even then, that's only a general rule. Ice Storm is Evocation, but it creates chunks of ice (we can be sure it's not just cold energy as there's physical damage from it as well). Mage Armor is Conjuration, yet it creates force, something that is generally the realm of Evocation.

So I'd have to agree with Iron from these observations and also just lore/flavor. Schools are a general way for mortals to group and think about spells. They're probably needed, however, otherwise trying to figure out a force that is literally possibility itself would be overwhelming. So an alien culture may not have the idea of Evocation as another does, but there is likely some sort of classification, even if its as simple as "These spells make fire, these spells don't."

Sidenote: I always figured Fear worked by some rudimentary manipulation of the life process, like how some necromancy spells cause nausea or fatigue. It messes with your digestion, or circulation, or any number of things to make you feel out of whack. In my eyes, Fear triggers the Fight-or-Flight response, something so innate to living creatures that it can be manipulated by the school that controls life.

What happens while you're under the effect of necromantic fear isn't some scary thought or a ghoul after you. It's the primal chemical reactions in your brain telling you to get the hell out of there.

TormakSaber wrote:

P.s. healing used to be necromancy in 3.0 and 2.0 as a reflection of Necromancy's control of life force. In 3.5 it was altered to be 'summoning positive energy.'

Dark Immolation wrote:

A better differentiation IMO is Evocation specifically creates/manipulates energy and force. Conjuration specifically creates/manipulates matter.

Healing (conjuration) spells, in this view, might call up energy to magically duplicate what the cells of the body would do naturally, though not by accelerating natural processes or in any way involving them. The magical energy simply replaces lost or damaged tissue.

The charm/hold/dominate spells as enchantments could basically surround or imbue the victim with a magical aura that the caster then uses to manipulate their behaviour directly (though perhaps subtly), rather than by acting on the biological underpinnings of the behaviour (neurons, hormones, muscles, etc.). It's like wrapping someone up in a powered exoskeleton but having the controls in your hand and making them walk wherever you want. So a charm spell doesn't actually change the person's feelings, it just makes them act that way (though they may not be aware of the fact).

Dark Immolation wrote:

What happens while you're under the effect of necromantic fear isn't some scary thought or a ghoul after you. It's the primal chemical reactions in your brain telling you to get the hell out of there.

This fits with fear/scare actually manipulating the physical body - the caster sticks little magical fingers into the brain and directly stimulates the relevant neurons, causing the cells to release hormones which in turn generate the physiological fear response.

slkNihilus wrote:

Mindblank (or similar spells) ward off Fear while Death Ward or Negative Energy Protection don't. [...] it simply helps the subject retain their cool in situation where they might otherwise have lost it.

In this case, mindblank (abjuration) would cause those little magical fingers to be removed, allowing the target's natural emotions to reassert themselves. However, if the victim were already frightened 'naturally', only the magical component of the fear would be overridden.

Note: I'm taking the spell schools from the NWN Wiki, not the actual D&D books which I don't have. Hopefully they're the same.

No, healing magic is pretty clearly swinging positive energy like a magical healing cudgel. This is why it damages undead, whereas a strict matter manipulation interpretation of the school would mean they too could be healed (or unaffected). I thought the other stuff you said (necro fear is more biological, enchantment is direct mindbuggery) sounded fine though.

I still say the mechanics of magic as they are in 3.5 are weird and inconsistent.

Mind blank is a guard at the door of your head saying to all mind-affecting and locating spells, "Nope nothing here, go away."

Mind blank's an abjurative effect but Abjuration by it's nature serves commonly in the role of spells which block or defend.

Necromancy and magical fear

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