AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

TL; DR: In my opinion, Amia's magic level is so high because magic is a near infinite resource with no true cost of expenditure. Requiring a greater investment to cast spells might make their use more strategic.

think the main issue with the way magic "works" in Amia is inherent in the system itself. A lot of spells are decidedly powerful in their own right, but the true problem is how easily available they are. There is no cost to casting any of them, and once above, oh, level 9 or so the amount of spell slots available for wizards and clerics becomes so massive that there isn't even much of a strategy to their use anymore (though even at level 30 there remains a strategic element to spell preparation).

Rather than reducing the power of individual spells, perhaps limiting their availability would be a better approach - or more accurately, making it more "expensive" to cast them. In that way, casters would have to consider their spell use more strategically, and it would actually stimulate certain forms of RP (if a cleric isn't keen on wasting his spells, it makes sense to demand a tithe or a prayer before casting, for example. Wizards would likely also become more mercantile in their spell use).

Rulewise, spells (regardless of class) can only be prepared once per day. There is already a delay on resting in Amia, but it's hard to say whether it's too short or too long. For high-level casters I feel it's too short. But for low-level casters who run out of available spells far sooner it can often be too long.

One way to do this would be to reduce the number of spell slots (and castings/day for sorcerers and bards) available. This would certainly ensure that casters would have to give more thought to their spell preparation, especially combined with the "rest delay", but I'm not sure it solves the core of the issue - or whether it just nerfs casters, which is another matter entirely.

Another alternative that I've always thought is very interesting and which I've written about before is the spell-casting system of OGL Ancients:

Casting any spell requires passing a successful Spellcraft check, with a DC depending on level and certain circumstances (such as group prayers, the presence of a chapel, certain reagents, ritual magic, the phase of the moon, etc.). Additionally, arcane spells drain HP to cast (HP lost depends on the power/level of the spell) to represent the strain on the arcanist from channeling the magic effect, while divine casters get a number of "free" (unmodified in DC to cast) spells per day, depending on level, while each additional divine spell has an incrementally higher DC to cast to represent the gods expecting a priest to use divine magic wisely, and because they don't like getting "spammed" for assistance.

On the side, I think it would only make sense if clerics had to learn spells the way wizards did - trough study of divine spell scrolls. At least it would support clerics actually creating new spells or going on quests to find long-lost rites. The whole "the god grants the cleric knowledge of all spells" thing completely undermines the idea that, just like wizards, clerics spend many years in study before they actually become clerics - and this study continues throughout their lifetime. We already have nice RP of wizards learning spells from other wizards (which supports the existence of mage guilds), and using the same system could give an additional objective to religious guilds. On the other hand, only a few faiths in Amia have more than a handful (if even that) of clerics around, which might realistically hamstring these unfortunate few...

Your idea of HP burn to cast magic would work wonders for a scant slice of Arcane paradigms, but the sacrifices could be also seen in RP and in resources. However, that is not the default of PnP which although Amia is slightly different, I cannot refute that.

Also, yes, for certain rituals I do agree Spellcraft checks are an invested requirement to make it more interesting and not just 'Blah, I cast X ritual'.

That is all sort of beside the point, though. We have altruistic and/or fame-hungry PCs who are willing to blow millions just to help some poor NPCs build new homes and whatever. Measures aimed to regulate daily use don't really deal with the issue that when it really matters, when big plots go down or nasty puzzles confront the PCs, they're going to have their magical cure-alls handy - a 80% success rate won't mean much.

I think instead of coming to the conclusion that magic is available on amia to the point of being broken, we might just want to consider the idea that instead that is just how the world works. Magic is really readily available, so much so that we don't need other things. Hell, if you want an example of how readily available magic is sniff around Tarkuul. It's just sort of the way the setting requires magic to be.

Now that's not to say those other things aren't a possibility as well, but who the hell needs to use a proper pulley system if you can magic one?

To be fair, I think anyone who plays in the setting accepts that as a reality, bob. It doesn't mean we have to like it or wish that we had what we preferred instead. :wink:

Tarkuul would work just as fine if the availability of magic was balanced more to the degree of lore of the Forgotten Realms setting. Thay just being an example to underline that. It is the availability of a set of powerful spells that are a problem, being the snap-of-the-finger solution to make a lot of more mundane techniques reduntant.

The 80% success rates do mean quite a bit in regard to immunity spells. If mindblank had an 80% chance of spell immunity to mind-affecting spells and just a small save bonus, they would no longer be the snap-of-the-finger solution when characters are faced by powerful psonic NPCs like Elderbrains or Mindflayers. If negative energy immunity was an 80% success with saves against effects like level drain, the abilities of vampires would no longer have a snap-of-the-finger solution to thwart them. While the spells would remain incredibly useful, the characters would need to use tactics against these abilities that go beyond "cast mindblank and negative energy immunity, then go click and fight". Being subject to those with healing spells that are not a guranteed success would help underline that.

In the Cormyr novels, King Azoun would have been healed up on his death bed in a moment's time. Once he died during the Goblin Wars, he would have been easily raised. Now, I am not suggesting permadeath, nor that the healing of wounds takes a week for characters, but simply re-introducing magic in a manner it is not the simple immediate solution to everything. Introducing a bit of danger again when you face foes with terrible abilities. Now, while in the amian setting he may now have a cleric to cast greater restoration or ressurection, those spells being difficult and having the draw back that they do not always succeed. That helps bring back the need of other remedies and restores a certain believability of danger, especially if their success rate is reduced if potent or magical poisons are introduced.

Combat spells and protective spells such as Greater Ruin, Hellball, Greater Missile Storm, Mage Armor, Acid Sheath and so forth fall in line with the general combat abilities. They are just not as effective, as causing 120 damage from a maxed Greater Missile Storm against a CR 26 Ancient Red Dragon may be effective, on amia against a CR 40 Ancient Red Dragon they are balanced again.

What is left are primarily the PnP spells which very often make investigations or the search for relics pretty reduntant. There are not really too many of those, but for example legend lore could use a serious tweak. If the item or person is at hand, 1d4×10 minutes casting time is a bit short. You gain your hands on a relic of times past that may hold the awnser to defeating the Great Demon "Blaargh", and after a maximum of fourty minutes you got your awnser. You rarely need to look for the "key" to unlock it's secrets. Catch a person, cast 3 disjunctions on them, followed by a detect magic, and then finally a detect evil and you got your awnser. Though I feel those spells have in the last year (at least in the plots I was involved in) been less of a problem.

Part of the problem on Amia is that epic spell shouldn't even exist in the Forgotten Realms with the way Mystra changed we weave. Nothing above 9th level exists at all, hence you have guys like Elminster and Hallaster Blackcloak just casting meta-magic spells up to in 10-12th level slots and such in the rule system because there was nothing else to do with those slots.

Now Amia allowing epic spells sort of makes things weird. Granted Auril's chosen can use them in the rule system but I think that's an exception involving her being the big, bad chosen of auril. So either something needs to be done IC to reign in magic or we sort of need to change the definitions of some of those spells on Amia.

Though frankly I'm waiting for Mystra to just obliterate Amia completely with how much rule breaking there is there.

In my mind I always thought of epic spells to be ninth level spells that just take such a considerable skill and effort to learn that they take up an epic feat. But that was just my interpredation.

Epic spells are not 10th+ level spells. Epic magic is what replaced casting 12th level magic willy-nilly. They do canonically exist in the Realms. Wizard mythals are epic magic, for example.

For the purpose of mechanics, in D&D, Epic spells count as spells of the 10th level. In practice, they've replaced magic of above 9th level. I think there's an Epic Spell variant of a netherese spell of above 10th level used to sheer mountain tops off. So yeah, it's pretty... all over the place, really.

Spells of 10th level and above are described in Netheril, Empire of Magic. For instance Karsus' Avatar is a spell of 12th level.

Dead wrote:

Spells of 10th level and above are described in Netheril, Empire of Magic. For instance Karsus' Avatar is a spell of 12th level.

.........and they can never be cast again because the weave was damaged to the point where such magic isnt possible

Magic of Faerun: page four and five.

"THE MOMENT OF NO MAGIC
Mystryl’s duty was to tend and repair the Weave, but she
herself was so much more than that. Mystryl was the
embodiment of the Weave. It ebbed and flowed with her
moods, actions, and energy. Something that harmed the
Weave harmed Mystryl, and vice versa. Her ties to the
Weave were so strong that only she could fully understand
and protect it. When Karsus, a powerful arcanist from the
human civilization of Netheril, attempted to drain her
power in order to elevate himself to divinity, he found him-
self unqualified for the task, and magic began to unravel all
over Faerûn. The severely crippled Mystryl chose to sacri-
fice herself to save the Weave. Her death caused magic to
cease functioning across the universe, instantly slaying the
upstart Karsus. The deity was reborn as Mystra, and she was
able to repair the Weave so that such powerful magic was
no longer possible."

and before you go "the shadow weave can" no its a reflection of the weave, and thus limited by the same problems.

I don't think that was his point.

As Nihilus said, some of the Netherese 10+ spells have been recreated as epic spells and are thus available.

IronAngel wrote:

I don't think that was his point.

As Nihilus said, some of the Netherese 10+ spells have been recreated as epic spells and are thus available.

they are not level 10 spells anymore and thus they still arnt availble, its a set in stone part of faerun, no level 10+ spells after the folly of karsus.
If there is a mimiced epic spell based on old heavy magic, thats fine, but there should be a very clear distintion as level 10+ spells or "heavy magic" and epic magic as the weakened weave is a central part of faerun lore.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I don't think that was his point.

As Nihilus said, some of the Netherese 10+ spells have been recreated as epic spells and are thus available.

they are not level 10 spells anymore and thus they still arnt availble, its a set in stone part of faerun, no level 10+ spells after the folly of karsus.
If there is a mimiced epic spell based on old heavy magic, thats fine, but there should be a very clear distintion as level 10+ spells or "heavy magic" and epic magic as the weakened weave is a central part of faerun lore.

The Weave isn't "weakened"; rather the access to powerful spells is now harder and requires the acquisition of epic spells, rather than just picking up a 12th level spell scroll. And, I imagine, their creation is partly monitored by the gods.

In any case, you're repeating what everybody knows and has stated several times on this page. In fact, you quoted me as if to disagree, and just rephrased my words: some 10th+ level spells have been recreated as epic spells, whether you choose to call it mimicking or not. They're the same spells or effects, recreated in the "epic spell" format rather than the "10th+ spell level" format.

the weave is weakened, it says so right in qoute i posted

From what phrase of the quote are you extrapolating a Weave that is weakened in the modern age?

Yossarin wrote:

From what phrase of the quote are you extrapolating a Weave that is weakened in the modern age?

absense of the lore saying othervise leads me to assume that yes, but you are welcome to find me a qoute that tells me othervise, absense of proof isnt proof on its own.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

Thank you, NC. I was wondering how the burden of proof suddenly got turned around onto me!

What exactly did you mean by "it says so right in the quote i posted", if not that it said so in the quote you posted?

The weave isn't so much weakened, as indeed, Mystra suppressing the access by in large to the Art to keep from spells like the Avatar from functioning again.

Grymia wrote:

The weave isn't so much weakened, as indeed, Mystra suppressing the access by in large to the Art to keep from spells like the Avatar from functioning again.

hence the "The deity was reborn as Mystra, and she was
able to repair the Weave so that such powerful magic was
no longer possible." and hence the no 10+ spells under any circumstances..

IronAngel wrote:

What exactly did you mean by "it says so right in the quote i posted", if not that it said so in the quote you posted?

"The deity was reborn as Mystra, and she was
able to repair the Weave so that such powerful magic was
no longer possible."

I always interpret that less as a reduction in the Weave's full capacity and more of a new feature built into it during reconstruction. Basically, Mystra reprogrammed the Weave with an artificial limitation that can only be overriden by software programmers with higher levels of access (like Ao, or some upstart magician who makes himself an older and purer magical entity than Mystra herself, for example.) Considering that analog, if we apply the same advancements over time to the Weave that we apply to computer science, then if Mystra opted to remove that limiting feature we could have 15th level spells.

Polymorph Planet
Summon Elder God
Gamma Ray Burst
Asteroid of Annihilation
Mage's Galactic Sanctum

A 10th-level spell and an epic spell are not the same thing at all. 10th-level spells would have been part of a wizard's regular character advancement; she would get several of them per day by default, without spending a feat, and more per day with a high INT. They wouldn't require any specific Spellcraft investment, and could be traded among wizards' spellbooks just like any other spell. An epic spell is entirely different: you have to spend a separate feat on it, and have a minimum Spellcraft rank, and you only ever get each one once per day, maximum. A wizard needs to go to extraordinary lengths to master an epic spell; a 10th-level spell required effort only proportional to the rest of a wizard's spellbook advancement. Mystra's reprogramming of the Weave meant that 10th-level spells, as part of a wizard's standard arsenal, are no longer possible. Epic spells are still possible, just as they would have been during Karsus's time.

Think of Mystra's limiting the weave like a parental filter and block on the porn and gore channels on satellite tv instead of the weave being broken and it'll make more sense. Yes, you know that there is hardcore, sweaty porn playing on the TV. But you can't get to it without trying every possible password combination and hoping you're right.

Technology advancement.

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