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Can a person receive spells from a dead power? Or would a cleric simply get an automatic fall widget. I remember from NWN 2 Mask of the Betrayer and Baldur's Gate 2 Campaigns showing just how hard it is to completely erase their existence. That as long as there are those who think of them often, be it worshipers or even people that hated that power.

Yes. The feat "Servant of the Fallen" allows clerics to worship a dead power and receive spells. They can also be raised and resurrected as normal.

The only down side is that when you die, you go to the wall! Although it is a logical guess that that is probably what happens, your PC wouldn't know that for sure.

Not sure if it's worth mentioning again, but it's established that it's possible for one deity to kill/subvert/whatever another, and take over the victim's spell-granting without its mortal clergy being aware of it. Most of the world is still certain that Ilbrandlin is still alive, for example, because there's Ilbrandlin clerics running around getting spells when they pray to him. It's not common knowledge that Ilbrandlin is dead, slain by Shar, and it's she who's granting spells to his followers and pretending to be him.

Not sure how that would relate to Gunz's point, though. Would a follower of (for example) Ilbrandlin still be considered Faithless and get sucked into the Wall?

That's a different situation, but yes. There have been cases where a deity kills another and masquerades as that god, continuing to grant spells to the gods followers. It's happened a number of times and each case has been pretty unique.

Two recent cases that are ongoing are the situation with Set killing Sseth recently and Auril sucking away Ulutiu's powers. With Sseth, Set captured him first, before finally killing him and taking his powers. During his capture, Sseth was able to send out cryptic messages of distress to his followers. Sseths followers interpreted this in many ways. The two main interpretations were that Sseth was angry with them or that Sseth was in trouble. At the end, some follower even learned that Sseth was dead, when he suddenly went silent after so many cryptic and chaotic messages sent.

With Ulutiu, it's different. Ulutiu has been slumbering for some time, so his silence is nothing new. Auril is slowly sucking his divinity away. Just slow enough not to wake him. Because of that, his followers are none the wiser.

Do those followers go to the Wall though? Who knows.

I'd imagine in the case of Ibrandul's followers, if Shar grants them power she could claim their souls as well.

Gunz wrote:

Do those followers go to the Wall though? Who knows.

The only possible good answer, IMHO.

Gunz wrote:

That's a different situation, but yes. There have been cases where a deity kills another and masquerades as that god, continuing to grant spells to the gods followers. It's happened a number of times and each case has been pretty unique.

Two recent cases that are ongoing are the situation with Set killing Sseth recently and Auril sucking away Ulutiu's powers. With Sseth, Set captured him first, before finally killing him and taking his powers. During his capture, Sseth was able to send out cryptic messages of distress to his followers. Sseths followers interpreted this in many ways. The two main interpretations were that Sseth was angry with them or that Sseth was in trouble. At the end, some follower even learned that Sseth was dead, when he suddenly went silent after so many cryptic and chaotic messages sent.

With Ulutiu, it's different. Ulutiu has been slumbering for some time, so his silence is nothing new. Auril is slowly sucking his divinity away. Just slow enough not to wake him. Because of that, his followers are none the wiser.

Do those followers go to the Wall though? Who knows.

There is a sect of Yuan-Ti who know that Set is Sseth/masquerading as him, but they refuse to reveal the deception for fear of losing their power and control over the other Yuan-Ti given to them by "sseth's Divine right".

On the issue of whether or not followers of dead powers go to the wall, I would really think it would be a case dependent on the deity and his/her former allies.

I.E. A follower of the dead power Murdane would likely find one of Helm's servants willing to take her to the House of the Triad after death. AFAIK, even Faithless are still given the full tenday to try to find someone to take them away. And in the case of dead powers, I'm pretty sure other deities would become thoroughly pissed at Kelemvor if he just auto-chucked Servants of the Fallen into the wall without giving them a chance to intervene. I could easily see agreements being made between allied deities to the effect of "If I should die, please see to it that my followers' eternal souls are cared for."

Now, if your dead power was a jerk or simply has no active allies left, yeah, then you're probably going to be "another brick in the wall", to quote Pink Floyd.

Dark Immolation wrote:

On the issue of whether or not followers of dead powers go to the wall, I would really think it would be a case dependent on the deity and his/her former allies.

I remembe seeing something off FR wiki (so it might be total BS but I will post it so feel free to correct it)

Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship.

if that is true, then it would seem it does not matter who your friends are...but something else on FR wiki..

Fugue Plane,Souls can reside in the city for up to a tenday before a divine servant comes to collect them, often completely clueless to the fact that they are dead. During that time, baatezu are allowed to inform souls of their state and bargain with them. Souls are offered the chance to become devils themselves, usually starting as a lemure but having the chance to advance through the devilish ranks, possibly even becoming a pit fiend.

but if thats true.... then if devils can take souls if they are willing why cant other deitys, or do faithless and the false not get the option to hang around for 10days and just get fast tracked to the wall...

corypx wrote:

but if thats true.... then if devils can take souls if they are willing why cant other deitys, or do faithless and the false not get the option to hang around for 10days and just get fast tracked to the wall...

Because of the Pact Primeval and the agreements that the Baatezu have made when it comes to protecting the wall from demons. They're specifically allowed to do it.

Still, if deities can't do it too, it seems like a completely bunk system. A Good aligned Servant of the Fallen would be given no other options than to become a devil or part of the wall, despite there being a myriad of sympathizing deities.

Conclusion: Kelemvor's an ass, Deities get to intervene on Servant's behalfs, and/or the deities that agreed to the Pact Primeval were incredibly stupid.

Kelemvor's not an ass. He's doing his job the correct way: As an impartial judge ruled only by the cold logic of Death.

Deities don't get to intervene unless Kelemvor gives permission. He doesn't give permission.

The Deities who agreed to the Pact Primeval failed to read the fine print and really didn't want to deal with the issues. The dangers of outsourcing.

TormakSaber wrote:

The Deities who agreed to the Pact Primeval failed to read the fine print and really didn't want to deal with the issues. The dangers of outsourcing.

In other words, yes to # 3.

Now the question becomes what if the SotF worships a pantheon or additional gods? If they still have the dead one as their patron, is there absolutely nothing else that matters?

corypx wrote:

I remembe seeing something off FR wiki (so it might be total BS but I will post it so feel free to correct it)

Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship.

That's only part of it. I've read the novel that bit is out of. Because of Cyric's direct interference that caused Adon to fall and die Faithless, Mystra was allowed to directly intervene to try and restore his faith after death, so he eventually ended up in Mystra's realm, not the wall. So apparently Kelemvor takes extenuating circumstances into consideration.

Gers wrote:

corypx wrote:

I remembe seeing something off FR wiki (so it might be total BS but I will post it so feel free to correct it)

Adon (Kelemvor and Mystra's mutual friend, as well the patriarch of Mystra's new church) was driven mad by Cyric's trickery, losing his faith in Mystra, and had died a faithless soul. Mystra came to Kelemvor and asked for Adon's soul, which Kelemvor steadfastly refused since Adon was now one of the Faithless, or perhaps even the False. This, along with Kelemvor's loss of passion, eventually caused the breaking up of their relationship.

That's only part of it. I've read the novel that bit is out of. Because of Cyric's direct interference that caused Adon to fall and die Faithless, Mystra was allowed to directly intervene to try and restore his faith after death, so he eventually ended up in Mystra's realm, not the wall. So apparently Kelemvor takes extenuating circumstances into consideration.

ah see FR wiki left that last part out. thanks for the info.

Quote:

Now the question becomes what if the SotF worships a pantheon or additional gods? If they still have the dead one as their patron, is there absolutely nothing else that matters?

Divine caster? Probably not, unless 'extenuating circumstances'.

Nondivine caster? Someone else can probably claim him.

The question was already answered. If you're a cleric of a dead power, via the "Servant of the Fallen," you go to the wall. It's right there in plain English when you read about the feat. Of course, Kelemvor is ultimately in control and can make exceptions should he choose. But by default, they go to the wall.

That's true, but don't they indeed get a tenday to petition, like DI said? I mean, it's not like deities aren't allowed to pick up affiliated petitioners afaik; isn't it they who make the judgement of whether the deceased has been faithful or false to them, and either pick them up or leave them behind? I haven't read about it in a long time, but this seems to be the basic idea. The dead wait for their gods, who either accept them or leave them behind for the Wall/City/devils/demons. I find it extremely likely that if you worship a fallen deity whose portfolio is now absorbed by someone like-minded, they may accept you. So if you're a Netherese history buff worshipping Mystryl or Amaunator (ignoring the dubious claim that the latter is actually Lathander), it seems probable that the deities who have more or less directly replaced them in the pantheon would accept you. If, on the other hand, you worship someone cool like Auppenser whose portfolio is no longer in use, you're out of luck.

I don't really know, but this seems to make sense.

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