AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Okay, this isn't really so much of a lore question as it is a lore observation, and an invitation for others' thoughts on it.

Where are all the monarchies?

To the best of my ability to detect, the only traditionally feudal system of hereditary nobility on the entire server is in Fort Wiltun. (Apparently Winya Ravana and Cordor had monarchies years ago, but no longer.) What gives? Nearly the whole rest of Faerun is ruled by more or less dictatorial autocrats (kings, lords, pashas, grand dukes, netyarchs, zulkirs, whatever you want to call them), but Amia seems to be really enthusiastic about democratically elected mayors and councils.

What's up with the relative dearth of aristocrats and oligarchs? Was it a conscious choice on the part of the server's overseers, maybe for the purpose of affording PCs a greater likelihood of being able to participate in their various governments? Or did it just kind of work out that way organically, through years of the influence of players (subconsciously or otherwise) projecting a 21st-century mindset onto their medieval PCs? Would the server be better off with a few more kings and queens around, or do we like it that Amia has this sort of odd regional cultural sympathy for democracy?

Kohlingen is in many senses a Theocratic Monarchy as far as I understand. While there are bureaucrats and similar, the Justicar is the one who makes the decision at the top. Tormak, if this is incorrect anywhere please correct me?

Bendir, I'd hazard as Halflings don't tend towards monarchies in the same sense just went with the Mayoral system?

Wharftown's a mayoral system as well, though I'm not sure how a Mayor is decided if they aren't a For-life title. Uhm'd seem similar.

That's just what I can think of right off the top since the communities on A.

Cordor .. well, I think Yossi could tell the common-known lore of Cordor's situation better then I, and more fairly.

You also have to remember that we're talking about a muddy shithole of an island on the grand scheme of things. Even if it was the halfling custom, I doubt a village like Bendir Dale, only a small fort a few years ago, would have a monarch.

Kohlingen and Cordor are the large city-states around, and Cordor used to be a monarchy (though the title of the leader was "duke", strangely enough). Winya Ravana was a monarchy, then a theocracy as the queen left (now returned as a citizen), and now it's kind of a mix between theocratic rule as the elder Vilmandel (unless things have changed?) can still oversee and veto the Council.

Other places wouldn't have a monarch. Either they're too small, or under someone else's (contested) rule, like Khem.

Since there is no single, uncontested master deity that can bestow the divine right to rule upon monarchs, a critical condition for a feudal monarchy is unfulfilled. That, and ofcourse the fact that any self-styled royal despot without a significant power base or divine backing (Ie; DM's) would quickly be brought down by the reserve army of unemployed epic adventurers. And yes, Marxist perspective on amian politics. I am that nerdy.

The Forgotten Realms has managed to be jammed with enduring, successful monarchies despite the lack of a "single, uncontested master deity." Clearly it's not a critical condition.

In their own copuntries, yes. On Amia, there is no deity, or even panthenon that holds supremacy, unlike in other places.

In some other places, sure, but not all, or even most. Who's the single deity or pantheon who holds uncontested master supremacy in Tethyr? Cormyr? Baldur's Gate? Calimshan? Chessenta?

There isn't one. Yet, monarchies all.

I was mostly refering to Amia though, there it holds quite true. Divine supremacy is a critical criteria, but not absolute. And fromw hat i have seen, the monarchies of FR are a lot more like constitutional monarchies than absolute ones, with a few exceptions. The reason for that, I believe, is the age old FF wisdom: Kingdoms are good, Empires are evil.

I'm not sure how a deity central faith is needed, to be honest. The ideology of state and legality is quite enough. Rulers are justified by their adherence to ancestral order of things. I think it's fair to say that even if no church has monopoly, there's a general understanding of the right order of things, in relation to the state, the ruler, the gods etc.

But that's really beside the point: Kohlingen is a theocracy with a wealthy nobility to bolster it, and Cordor was a monarchy but due to IC events that have been going on for several years now experienced a revolution and became a Commonwealth. It's certainly not the kind of democracy where adventurers are equal participants, though. And between those two cities, you've pretty much exhausted all the candidates for monarchy on Amia proper. (With perhaps the exception of Winya Ravana, whose monarch abdicated the throne. And elves in general don't have kings and queens in their settlements, as they consider themselves subjects of the Queen of Evermeet. Not sure about the political status of Evereska at the moment, but there aren't any other large elven settlements which would have their own Coronals anymore.)

Siamorphe has the portfolio of nobility and divine right to rule iirc.

Nobility indeed. Nobanion is a less-worshipped, or more locally worshipped, god of royalty specifically (and lions and felines).''

Having divine justification from a niche god whose only purpose is to grant that justification is of course less relevant than having the support of a monotheistic God. But in nations like Cormyr, the throne is supported by several churches, and even the high priest of Malar is occasionally invited to serve the king on his pledges of loyalty. (As happened during Cormyr: A Novel, when the king was dying from an assassination attempt.)

There are plenty of places that don't function as monarchies on Faerun. Amia is a small place. Small enough to where places influence each other greatly. All of Amias monarchs followed a tend years ago of either stepping down or being removed.

It's not really unbelievable that Amia lacks monarchies.

Oh, and for those wondering, Bendir Dale is a Oligarchy/Representative Government.

Woo, cool!

- Benwick (Kingdom, absolute monarchy)
- Barak Runedar (Kingdom, consitutional monarchy)
- Cordor (Duchy, _____ monarchy)
- Kohlingen (elective monarchy simmiliar to the vatican, as in theocratic)
- Wiltun (Jarldom, absolute monarchy)
- Winya Ravena (Kingdom, _____ monarchy)
- Wyrmhold (not sure of the titles Drak’law and Layla Emberblaze had, absolute monarchy)

Benwick and Wyrmhold were destroyed, Barak Runedar`s council removed it`s Thane, Cordor had the rebellion, Winya Ravena changed when it`s queen abdicated. So now only Kohlingen and Wiltun remain as monarchies in the region.

Benwick was notoriously known as a very bad monarchy, and the founder of Kohlingen, Lord Darius Tristram, was one of the knights who turned on his liege lord to create a place more inclined to the virtue`s he was seeking. Because of that Kohlingen still cares little of birthright and the nobility are more like wealthy families who still carry the title, rather than a prieveleged cast.

As to why Florianne Taurielle abdicated and gave Winya Ravena to a council I do not know. Barak Runedar, from what I understand, removed the king (thane) by a vote of the council because his acts became a problem for Barak Runedar.

Honeydew Snugglepoof wrote:

As to why Florianne Taurielle abdicated and gave Winya Ravena to a council I do not know.

The Council is a new thing. Winya was basically ruled by high priest Vilmandel for several years.

But like I said, elves generally consider themselves subject to the queen of Evermeet so it makes sense there's no monarch. The "Coronal" title is fairly outdated.

Elves are not my strong suit, as in I have no idea in regard to Evermeet. I think there was a council first, then the rule of Vilmandel, and then the council again. Though I agree that Winya Ravena is a monarchy now that I thought about it. Vilmandel is the elected theocratic monarch (like the Justicar in Kohlingen) and the council is the parlament. So it would make it a elective parlamentary theocratic monarchy. He is not to my knowledge directly or indirectly elected by the people, hence it is not a republic. If they are ruled by Evermeet, like Iron says is often the case with elven realms, then it would change it of course.

As to Siamorphe. She is only worshipped by the nobility in human society. She presents them with their divine right to rule, given they accept their responsibilities laid out in her dogma. Her faith is even structured in a manner that the rank you hold within it is primarily determined by your birthright, as in a king holds a higher rank in the faith as a duke, a baron or a simple knight. Her only paladin order has the primary task to restore monarchies that follow her teachings, as they have in Tethyr. Someone who does have noble blood will not worship her. It is like how a Sailor will likely worship Valkur, while a farmer will not as it has simply nothing to do with him.

With Lathander I am unsure. He holds the nobility aspect in his portfolio, but I think his clergy is not as much concerned with the form of government, as long as it serves his teachings. Hence they use their influence to better society, be it in a monarchy or republic. Though here it would be really helpful for someone with a better idea in regard to that to elaborate.

Gunz wrote:

Oh, and for those wondering, Bendir Dale is a Oligarchy/Representative Government.

Why do you classify Bendir Dale under an oligarchy? It would mean that Bendir Dale has a power structure in which the power rests in the hands of a few priviledged individuals or cast who determine and/or form the government. From what I have seen it is simply an extremely tiny representative democratic republic. If only the wealthy, a certain political party or only certain families could vote, then it would be an oligarchy. As far as I know, every citizen of Bendir Dale of a certain age may cast a vote to determine their head of state.

Why do you even talk about "heads of state" when it comes to a village, anyway? A village. There's a mayor in most modern towns, I imagine, but nobody calls the monarchies. It's not like it's a legitimate city-state just because it isn't under the immediate rule of some other nation.

The answer to "why isn't there a king in Bendir Dale" isn't "because it's a representative government" but "because it's a village, and a village leader calling himself king would be laughed off the island."

IronAngel wrote:

Why do you even talk about "heads of state" when it comes to a village, anyway? A village. There's a mayor in most modern towns, I imagine, but nobody calls the monarchies. It's not like it's a legitimate city-state just because it isn't under the immediate rule of some other nation.

The answer to "why isn't there a king in Bendir Dale" isn't "because it's a representative government" but "because it's a village, and a village leader calling himself king would be laughed off the island."

Haha, well, I completly agree that the king of bendir dale would be quite an impressive figure. However, the difference is that most modern villages are not their own sovereignty. They are part of a state. On amia they are like city-states that do not deserve that name. If you describe a small tribe of natives you can still use political terms describing their way of government, even if it seems a bit far-fetched for a community of two hundred people.

Honeydew Snugglepoof wrote:

Gunz wrote:

Oh, and for those wondering, Bendir Dale is a Oligarchy/Representative Government.

Why do you classify Bendir Dale under an oligarchy? It would mean that Bendir Dale has a power structure in which the power rests in the hands of a few priviledged individuals or cast who determine and/or form the government. From what I have seen it is simply an extremely tiny representative democratic republic. If only the wealthy, a certain political party or only certain families could vote, then it would be an oligarchy. As far as I know, every citizen of Bendir Dale of a certain age may cast a vote to determine their head of state.

Even though the Mayor is elected the office has limited authority and certain decisions must be brought before a Council of Elders whom are unelected and have served in that capacity for many years through many Mayoral administrations. That's why it's a mixture.

You can have elections in an oligarchy, many undemocratic governments hold elections, it's just that the people elected have very limited authority with the real power resting in the hands of the unelected oligarchs through election after election. In some cases it's a complete facade. In the case of Bendir it's not, the Mayor has some actual decision making and administrative powers, but outside those known and limited powers must defer to the Council.

Ah, did not remember the elders. Makes sense now, thanks.

This is the first I've heard of any Elders, or I've just forgotten 'cause I'm an idiot. <.<

Are they represented in game at all, or are they just assumed to be around town? Are they players or NPC's? I'm assuming NPC's, but it never hurts to ask.

You actually can meet all of the elders in game as they are all standing around xD All of them are in the main areas of Bendir and none that most people would figure is super important figures (well, except for two, who actually seem rather important).

When I was in office in Bendir, I wouldn't have argued in my experience that the Mayor's office was limited, though I suppose it's always possible things change as I stepped down from my position months ago. One thing I can add about Bendir, though it has no relevance to the existing or the lack thereof of a monarch, is that the power structure is very fluid and changes with each mayor. Since most people don't really pay attention to what shorties are up to, I'm sure it's not super obvious to anyone that's not inside it, but there hasn't been a definite structure aside from the most basic form. The rest is kind of whatever the term brings.

For example, the mayor's second, or "deputy Mayor" only became a requirement starting with Lyle's term. And now the deputy became the actual mayor! So xD Great thing it became a requirement by my predecessor! If the current leadership wants to make all of these information public, this thread still exists for that purpose, rather than hijacking this one. I personally have refused to partake in this thread (as it is on volunteer basis) but my reasons are irrelevant now as I am no longer in office <:

Lizzie wrote:

Where are all the monarchies?

Haven't gotten around to making my goblin kingdom yet. Sorry, working on it!

serbiris wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

Where are all the monarchies?

Haven't gotten around to making my goblin kingdom yet. Sorry, working on it!

It's because he can't have fresh bread, isn't it! D: D: D:

Monarchies on Amia don't happen because people keep crying "Help help! I'm being repressed!"

Gravemaskin wrote:

Monarchies on Amia don't happen because people keep crying "Help help! I'm being repressed!"

So, you mean...

Lizzie wrote:

... the influence of players (subconsciously or otherwise) projecting a 21st-century mindset onto their medieval PCs?

I kind of hope that's not the case, but I also kind of suspect that it is.

Lizzie wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

Monarchies on Amia don't happen because people keep crying "Help help! I'm being repressed!"

So, you mean...

Lizzie wrote:

... the influence of players (subconsciously or otherwise) projecting a 21st-century mindset onto their medieval PCs?

I kind of hope that's not the case, but I also kind of suspect that it is.

in my opinion, this pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

Very much so, yes. Like shamefully so. For the record, the DMs only take responsibility for Cordor's situation. The rest of it is all your fault. Oh, and you can thank me for preserving Wiltun. There was an effort to change it (not by players) and I sunk my teeth in to preserve that autocracy.

--buys Yoss a cookie--

Cheers, then.

This doesn't really seem to be a lore debate rather than a discussion in general. Also as Yoss mentioned most of these things are due to players working towards those goals.

Yossarin wrote:

Very much so, yes. Like shamefully so. For the record, the DMs only take responsibility for Cordor's situation. The rest of it is all your fault. Oh, and you can thank me for preserving Wiltun. There was an effort to change it (not by players) and I sunk my teeth in to preserve that autocracy.

While people projecting modern mindsets is absolutely true, the fact that Cordor did indeed have a popular rebellion would seem to give plenty of cannon support to other groups to consider and implement similar legal and governmental policies. Once the demon of representative government is out of the box it's very hard to shove it back in. Plus with most adventurers being characterized by a significant dislike of arbitrary authority it seems like this progression could be considered perfectly natural within the region and the setting.

A nice hindsight justification, but I guarantee you there is no correlation.

Yossarin wrote:

Very much so, yes. Like shamefully so. For the record, the DMs only take responsibility for Cordor's situation. The rest of it is all your fault. Oh, and you can thank me for preserving Wiltun. There was an effort to change it (not by players) and I sunk my teeth in to preserve that autocracy.

Bless you. Bless you.

Yossarin wrote:

A nice hindsight justification, but I guarantee you there is no correlation.

That's pretty much what I meant, a convenient and applicable explanation for what happens regardless.

The Hin have never been a people that have kings or queens. Theocracies are the traditional Hin government. Bendir Dale moved away from that traditional form of government. They look to the elders who helped found Bendir Dale as their guilds. The elders, being pretty damn benevolent, set a system where the people elect a leader to run the town. They provide guidance and step in when necessary, but otherwise let the mayors govern as they please.

It should be said though, even though Bendir Dale isn't a theocracy, old habits die hard. Priests of the Hin faiths are regarded highly and looked to for guidance often.

L'Obsul is run by four ruling families. Edonil by Drow Houses. They are both far from democracies. Underport is ruled by illithid enclave, it is not democratic in the remotest sense of the word.

Shadowscape is ruled by a single family I think. It is a Dictatorship ruled from the shadows I believe.

Howness, is run by a Mayor. The mayor is an NPC, there are no elections or councils.

Wiltun is run by a Jarl, (similar in idea to the Norse tradition?).

Wharftown has a mayor, as does Uhm.

None of these are Monarchies in the traditional sense of the word, but neither are they democratic. Some might have PC councils (Winya and Edonil), most don't.

In someplaces, where the players have tried to assume control, they've been stomped on by the real rulers there, who keep in the background most of the time, giving the players a false assumption that they can take over the place.

The Grove is ruled by a forest tyrant. *sage nod* That's nearly as good?

Quote:

In someplaces, where the players have tried to assume control, they've been stomped on by the real rulers there, who keep in the background most of the time, giving the players a false assumption that they can take over the place.

It is not a false assumption, but nor is this the thread to discuss it.

Politics in its basest form is the exercise of power... the 'traditional' notion of the Mayor being the person with the most land/gold/cows or the Great Strong Man who killed the gang of goblins with an old axe (or indeed a discussion over a pipe and beer by the above mentioned) is, in a quasi-medieval scenario, a classic representation of power based policy in action. Great for the towns and forts but then you have the cities...

So, you get a gaggle of people who can slay dragons and dump them in a city... how do you stop them tearing it down trying to get to the top? The timeless, ageless wonder of bureaucracy!

"So, Mr Conan you'd like to run for office? ... oh I'm sorry that's Running for Office form 143.B. You need 143.B(i)... Has it been stamped by another twelve citizens who are not direct or indirect family? no no no, three Priests of the same rank from different churches on form 143.B(i), you've done it backwards... You'll have to start again... remember we close at 3:00pm."

or as we know it: "Are you a Citizen?"(flash of lightening and roll of thunder)

It's beautiful.

Amia is mostly made of fiercely independent city states each is pretty devoted to the idea that what ever system of government they use is best. Most have also arisen from the course of role play or as cultural norms for the dominate race.

Wyrmhold was a Monarchy, Cordor was a Monarchy, Benwick was a Monarchy. Amia has its history of crowns, most of them lie in ruins and under headstones.

Its a bit ironic that as Wiltun expands its control it grows steadily closer to something more then a city state. It may be a Monarchy that becomes the first micro-nation in the region.

Ravenovf wrote:

Its a bit ironic that as Wiltun expands its control it grows steadily closer to something more then a city state. It may be a Monarchy that becomes the first micro-nation in the region.

Finally. Someone understands.

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