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I'm thinking about making a palemaster soon and I was wondering if we can compile all our lore on em'. Also, I think people believe that they can conceal their Palemastry by covering up the bone arm and I think we should dispel their illusions. Lore away!

I know multiple posters have issued descriptions on the procedures of becoming pale masters which I find show great lore and also an insight into what you are dealing with. However if anyone has a source from the actual books on the ritual please post them

From the last sentence on the description of pale masters from Libris Mortis:
Wherever pale masters go, undead follow. Often it is difficult to tell a pale
master from the undead that he surrounds himself with.

that sums it up pretty good.

This is all the lore i have accumulated icly, and through approvals etc etc hope this helps and i really look foward to RP with you, i would love the opportunity to rp with a new PM, and guide them through the process of the deathless arts.

TormakSaber original concepts: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=49311

Valkin Muilgins Expanded Concepts http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=55890

Additional with a shift more to grafting: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=61397

Valkins IC Thread showing his conducting of rituals (scrolls down slow): http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=837766#p837766

This is everything that has been uncovered icly, and has been performed in game with various PM, valkin has been passing these on to apprentices for a year or two. If any clarification is required just let me know im happy to re-defined or clear up anything. All of this "lore" was developed in-game but a lot of it was taken from the concepts first developed by Tormak & the levels progression of a Pale Master as well as little bits taken from the Libris Mortis Lore Book about undead grafting.

As for "hideing" your arm, you could cover your entire body and appear not to be so disfigured and changed, but in reality you would essentially have a lto of negative energy within your body that could perhaps be picked up on, but a detect undead spell would not work as you are not undead, and as there is no "detect" negative energy spell that wont work. I suppose a detect magic, and a really good SC role with some familiarity with PM would suffice to see though a PM disguises.

Essentially you are making yourself more and more like an undead, filled with more negative energy's and become less and less what you once were, you might smell, or be rotting during some of the stages, your flesh would crumble at least one of your eyes would be cut out and replaced with a gem. You would start to emulate the "presense" of an undead, the coldness, the "feeling" of negative energy.

But none of that is defined nor is there spells, nor rulings on how these "feelings" or energy's can be seen or felt. Perhaps that is a good idea, i for one play my main and even i think that "hiding" for him is hard, not just become of who he is but the fact that he is a walking beacon of negative energy. Its why i dont venture out much anymore lol

Silkelock wrote:

I know multiple posters have issued descriptions on the procedures of becoming pale masters which I find show great lore and also an insight into what you are dealing with. However if anyone has a source from the actual books on the ritual please post them

[/i]

There is no real lore anywere as to "how" they are done, only what levels they are and what they give in benefits, the rituals done in Amia are really whats accepted atm, but i am totally game if there is to be some level of refinement and clarification going on, but keep in mind this stuff has been RP time over and over again with many different PM.

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

Essentially you are making yourself more and more like an undead, filled with more negative energy's and become less and less what you once were, you might smell, or be rotting during some of the stages, your flesh would crumble at least one of your eyes would be cut out and replaced with a gem. You would start to emulate the "presense" of an undead, the coldness, the "feeling" of negative energy.

But none of that is defined nor is there spells, nor rulings on how these "feelings" or energy's can be seen or felt. Perhaps that is a good idea, i for one play my main and even i think that "hiding" for him is hard, not just become of who he is but the fact that he is a walking beacon of negative energy. Its why i dont venture out much anymore lol

I can only concur, all class abilites from Libris Mortis only describe the bonuses save for one which gives a good detail of it.
At reaching 10th level of PM you have done all steps you can to close the gap between living and undead and Deathless Mastery while granting you powers gives you a large "cosmetic" change. Your body becomes partly mummified but you still need to eat and sleep.

I personally have no idea on how many pale masters walk the land. As the game is now, it's hard to tell just from looking at them. Except for some really good ones in Tarkuul

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

There is no real lore anywere as to "how" they are done, only what levels they are and what they give in benefits, the rituals done in Amia are really whats accepted atm, but i am totally game if there is to be some level of refinement and clarification going on, but keep in mind this stuff has been RP time over and over again with many different PM.

Yep!
Those being "partly mummfied" could also read your good insight on mummification

Well, I would stick to a minimalist reading of the class description. I mean, as authoritative lore. We need to remember the distinction between interpreting additional fluff and sticking to what's true across the board.

I'm probably preaching to the choir and you understand this very well, but just thought I'd bring it up.

IMHO, difference between positive and negative energy based lifeforms are far too great and, hence, impassable without becoming true undead (e.g., lich) (think, for a moment, how minor difference between diesel and benzine fuels, and damage for an engine from wrong 'feed'). Also, this opinion is supported by a lack of special negative energy resistance of PM. So, I think, we may forget about fancies like 'mummified flesh' and so on.

Mummified flesh has nothing to do with negative energy, though. There's mummies in the real world. I think we should play down any explanations related to Negative Energy, as they're just too would-be scientific and troublesome. Negative Energy can animate dead matter, but that's not to say it's necessary to a guy who wants to mutilate and mortify their body . The dichotomy between Positive and Negative Energy is not a central theme in the worldview of Faerûnians and probably not at all as significant as we make it out to be. If it was, you'd think it was referenced more often in religious doctrines and general scholarship.

Pale Masters gain "Bone Skin" and "Tough as Bone" which can be interpreted in many ways, but pretty clearly indicate gross physical changes.

IronAngel wrote:

Mummified flesh has nothing to do with negative energy, though. There's mummies in the real world. I think we should play down any explanations related to Negative Energy, as they're just too would-be scientific and troublesome. Negative Energy can animate dead matter, but that's not to say it's necessary to a guy who wants to mutilate and mortify their body . The dichotomy between Positive and Negative Energy is not a central theme in the worldview of Faerûnians and probably not at all as significant as we make it out to be. If it was, you'd think it was referenced more often in religious doctrines and general scholarship.

Pale Masters gain "Bone Skin" and "Tough as Bone" which can be interpreted in many ways, but pretty clearly indicate gross physical changes.

It is however important in the "scheme" of planes, and planar balance. Faith has nothing to do with "magic" per say, although there is faith around it, magic is based on "laws" these laws derived from the fundamental principles of the planar-verse as outlined in many Lore-books. Negative & Positive energy's, is a BIG part of necromancy, and the rituals of PM & magic.

The Palemaster, uses negative energy to "animate" and imbue himself with "similar" undead traits, although it may be viewed grafting in some aspects, but even if so "undead" arms, the undead grafts limbs do not function without negative energys they are animated by such.

Quote:

Mummified flesh has nothing to do with negative energy, though. There's mummies in the real world.

In this fantasy setting, it may well do especially when the mumifed flesh is "part" of a complex rituals that imbues negative energy's, mummy wrappings and aspects of "undead" not just mummification.

You cant call it all "grafting" the art of pale mastery is one mixed with "arcane/Anatomy grafting and ritual. As such many of the rituals as stated make a pale-master more akin to undead, often in-distinguishable from the real thing to those without knowledge of such things. It even quotes such in the Libris Mortis.

Quote:

Wherever a pale masters go, undead follow. Often it is difficult to tell a palemaster from the undead that he surrounds himself with.

Mummified flesh, grafting bone onto flesh, all the rituals as devised and RP in Amia use it, harness it. The Arm itself is a conduit for negative energy's, and becomes so powerful that it can be uses to channel enough to force death, control undead and other effects common to "necromancy" and negative energy exposure. Negative energy is essential to the art of pale-mastery and a pale masters existence !

Quote:

Necromancy is usually a poor choice for arcane spell-casters—those who really want to master the deathless arts almost always pursue divine means. However, there is an alternative for those who desire power over the undead but refuse to give up their arcane craft completely. Enter the palemaster, who draws on a font of special lore that provides a macabre power all its own.

Its not fancies, nor wishful thinking, a Palemater in his final rituals, and beyond those basic is becoming more and more like the thing he seeks to resemble, not just in appearance but in his very essence. Negative energy, its there and its essential to what being a pale master is. Its not all physical changes "gross" or not, there is a lot of magic involded in the process and almost all of it would be necromancy based.

Perhaps a little off topic, so apologies for that. If I were wishing to become a master of grafts, in my case, not that of an undead and one of an outsider, would it still be a valid route for me to do only as required on the path of the pale to better my ability with grafts, seeking out the knowledge and performing the required rituals only to better my chosen grafts and specific undead minions? I'm really not keen on the bone arm as I would be seeking out a particular graft from the start and taking PM levels to mechanically represent my mastery of the graft.

NAUX wrote:

Perhaps a little off topic, so apologies for that. If I were wishing to become a master of grafts, in my case, not that of an undead and one of an outsider, would it still be a valid route for me to do only as required on the path of the pale to better my ability with grafts, seeking out the knowledge and performing the required rituals only to better my chosen grafts and specific undead minions? I'm really not keen on the bone arm as I would be seeking out a particular graft from the start and taking PM levels to mechanically represent my mastery of the graft.

Not really, as IMO, Pale Mastery involved grafting but it is not about it, thus really you could be a wizard or character of any kind with the "right" rp feats and RP and delve into graphing without being a PM. If you wanted to go a full blown grafter you could make it a lot of fun my requesting special abilities and VFX etc through the Dream coin system. I think it be neat to see such, and would happily help you with ideas, it be awesome

Do Palemasters cut their own arm off, strip it to bone, imbue it with negative energy and then graft it back on, or do they find someone else's arm to graft onto themselves?

If it's someone else's arm, what factors go into the arm selection, so to speak, do they go shopping for better arms somewhere?

Quote:

"At 6th level, a pale master gives into terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved flesh stitched in place like that of a flesh golem."

However, I think it's fair to say it can be your own arm. You cut it off, then you animate it as an undead creature, and put it back on.

Talia, I think you're reading too much into the class description and seeing it through your preconception about the structure of the setting. You're saying Positive vs Negative is a fundamental dichotomy in the Forgotten Realms, but it's barely ever mentioned at all. If the cosmos worked on that principle, don't you think it would make some appearance in the FRCS? It's something our systematizing minds want to see and extrapolate from core planar handbooks.

The Pale Master description in Libris Mortis doesn't mention the word "negative energy" once. Not once. The arm graft isn't described as a "conduit of negative energy", it's an arm that inflicts certain effects. That doesn't mean his abilities don't have something (or a lot) to do with negative energy, but it does mean it's clearly not a central theme. And theme is precisely what's at stake here. You're not doing justice to the setting by looking for a unified theory of everything. That's not what the Realms are about. And that's why Negative Energy shouldn't be forced as a central theme on a class that doesn't explicitly rely on it. You can go there with your interpretation, but that's your private fluff. You're no longer sticking to the guidelines of faithfulness to the setting and bare minimal interpretation.

What I'm trying to say is: keep your theories on the laws of magic and physics confined to the IC, and stick with firm facts in OOC evaluation.

As for Negative Energy, it think its just a given its a critical aspect in the PM, and its abilities. Simply due to just like "evocation" magic using various energies , and divine spells "hinting" or down right saying they use positive energy's, some magic is just inherently tied into it, and i believe icly and out that it plays a big role in how the rituals are done, the spells used and i think like any "acts of atrocity" evil such as cutting of your own arm or the vile nature of the rituals itself can cause negative energy itself as it has been outlined in many lore books regarding undead propagation that such "evil" and vile acts can do such.

But even though this is my opiyion, it is from years of living and breathing my main, reading lore books, inventing new spells creating new rituals and conceptualizing necromancy and pale mastery from a IC lore perspective that sees it more "interesting" developed and able to act upon than the basic lore in the standard books. Even those really support my views, but i do see your point, consider it made.

However, this thread was created to build up lore upon the PM clasee so Silent can create one, and perhaps clarfiy a few things. As such the IC "lore" rituals and RP that has been done by many PM in amia cant be disregarded, as such it is a integral part of a great many characters concepts.

Luckbringer wrote:

Do Palemasters cut their own arm off, strip it to bone, imbue it with negative energy and then graft it back on, or do they find someone else's arm to graft onto themselves?

If it's someone else's arm, what factors go into the arm selection, so to speak, do they go shopping for better arms somewhere?

As for this IMO it can be your arm, but you would have to cut it off and do the ritual parts to your own arm while one armed and unable to cast, seeming the ritual involves spells it might be a tad difficult lol

The arm selection is based on grafts, and essentially "should" be a arm of your race, but i dont supose with some development you might make it a limb from another race entirely, "maybe". In valkins RP he shopped around, considering different arms, he eventually tore the arms of a lich off and used them.

@Silent the best advice I can give you is to make your character, take 3 arcane levels and get your ass to Tarkuul. EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING concerning the Palemaster lore can be done ICly, either through the research in the library, or through becoming an apprentice to a seasoned Palemaster (the more fun way).

IC lore has been established a long time ago, and frankly I see absolutely no reason to change it (glances at IronAngel). If there is a way that works, a way that provides fun and a way that is widely accepted among those who actually play Palemasters, then there is no reason to debate upon it. Just come over and everything can be done ICly, as it already exists IG.

Bottom line, if you still wish your compendium, it can be done IG as well.

I have nothing else to add in this thread.

Dead wrote:

@Silent the best advice I can give you is to make your character, take 3 arcane levels and get your ass to Tarkuul. EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING concerning the Palemaster lore can be done ICly, either through the research in the library, or through becoming an apprentice to a seasoned Palemaster (the more fun way).

IC lore has been established a long time ago, and frankly I see absolutely no reason to change it (glances at IronAngel). If there is a way that works, a way that provides fun and a way that is widely accepted among those who actually play Palemasters, then there is no reason to debate upon it. Just come over and everything can be done ICly, as it already exists IG.

Bottom line, if you still wish your compendium, it can be done IG as well.

I have nothing else to add in this thread.

100% agree with you, and that is what i suggested in my original post.

come play and you will have a GREAT time, especially if you do the master appritance role as you get guided through the rituals the RP for such can be streached out over a year even still making it fun if one was so inclined.

However, i do see a "small" need to clarify some aspects, for non PaleMasters, so people know generally what to expect, and how they can and cant "sniff" them out so to speak.

Nothing has been "established" and nothing is being "changed." We have sources which we study and interpret, and the contents of those sources are an unchanging given.

I agree it's best to do your Pale Master stuff in game. But you can't expect to monopolize the class and defend your interpretation with tradition. Just because you've done things a certain way doesn't mean others must or should. This is the lore forum where we adhere to strict and transparent standards, so it's pretty appropriate to call out questionable claims. This is what was stated:

Q't'ulu stated that differences between undead and living are too great to take on full traits of one without also becoming it. The point about negative energy resistance is extremely relevant and telling. However, he is mistaken when he says mummified flesh is out; the class description clearly cites it as an example.

And then Talia comes around saying negative energy is part of the Pale Master's essence, that his grafts and physical changes are imbued with it, and what I most object to, interpreting the Libris Mortis quotes quite loosely. The underscored "special lore" means special lore; Talia somehow jumps to conclusions about the "essence" of being a Pale Master. And (s)he seems to claim that the line "Often it is difficult to tell a Pale Master from the undead" means something more than that it's hard to tell them apart. That part clearly refers to appearance, not some essential relation to a cosmic energy.

Both were right in some parts and wrong in others, and thus I clarified what is exactly the hard lore from the sources and cautioned to keep it apart from the fluff you add to your own role-play. It's awesome that people enrich their RP and I've enjoyed reading Reinard's writings. But it's not awesome to offer it as authoritative canon when somebody asks you OOC, and discount counter-arguments with it. Its rightful place is as an appendix to the core canon lore about the class that we may extrapolate on.

Oh by the way, one interesting fact about Pale Masters that isn't mentioned in NWN (and there's very little lore about the class other than the ability descriptions): its special prerequisite is that the candidate must have spent 3+ days locked in a tomb with an undead. Dead or alive, doesn't matter. Fighting or drinking tea, doesn't matter. But I think it sheds some light on just how... eccentric, you have to be to become a Pale Master.

Dead wrote:

Bottom line, if you still wish your compendium, it can be done IG as well.

I have nothing else to add in this thread.

Thank you for that informative quote!

Regarding the "undeadedness" of PM features, the arm graft seems to be fully undead. It says so in the description. It has to be somewhat separate from the PM's organism, so as not to mix the contagion of undeath with living tissue. I imagine the results would be nasty. But the Bone Skin feature can't really be undead; it's just dead. I'm sure it's achieved through magical means. But if it was really undead tissue animated by negative energy the PM would explode from contact with a healing spell, and regenerate from Harm. But that doesn't happen, and it pretty much settles the question. I'd still say that your arm graft reacts the opposite even if NWN can't represent that, though.

Dead wrote:

@Silent the best advice I can give you is to make your character, take 3 arcane levels and get your ass to Tarkuul. EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING concerning the Palemaster lore can be done ICly, either through the research in the library, or through becoming an apprentice to a seasoned Palemaster (the more fun way).

IC lore has been established a long time ago, and frankly I see absolutely no reason to change it (glances at IronAngel). If there is a way that works, a way that provides fun and a way that is widely accepted among those who actually play Palemasters, then there is no reason to debate upon it. Just come over and everything can be done ICly, as it already exists IG.

Bottom line, if you still wish your compendium, it can be done IG as well.

I have nothing else to add in this thread.

There's more than one way to become a palemaster, and there's nothing wrong wth more lore or more RP.

From: The guy who made the apparently authoritative way to be a palemaster.

[quote="TormakSaber"
There's more than one way to become a palemaster, and there's nothing wrong wth more lore or more RP.

From: The guy who made the apparently authoritative way to be a palemaster.[/quote]

Tormark, if you know of more lore to the process could you please share a source for it?

O, I was being egotistical and assumed that from the quotes people were talking about Reinard's stuff which has been the basis for a lot of people's PM stuff over the years, as far as I've witnessed. It also has a very strong bent and argument for negative energy because that's where I wanted to go with the character, so I can only assume that's where Talia gets his bias from as well. It was never meant to be all encompassing. It just liked the idea for the character.

But it isn't the only way to go about being a PM by any stretch of the word. As for having more lore: I don't, because like most classes, the blurb you get in the book is all you got. The rest is just creativity, plain and simple. The class isn't quite so much like Dragon Disciple, where there is a clean and dry way for things to happen: It's 100% your dragon blood being ushered forth willingly and voluntarily. I mean hell, Reinard's bone arm was an accident ICly. Not purposeful. Then as he went deeper into the class he began researching into it and doing things around it. Making the best of the situation.

Is it possible to actually 'undo' the rituals? How it is played out on Amia there would be a lot more to it than removing the arm..

There's nothing that categorically denies that. I imagine it would be an arduous process without a predetermined course of progress, though. A series of Wish or Limited Wish spells might do it, for example. But I imagine you could find less drastic, more specific methods if you looked into it. From a storytelling perspective, it probably wouldn't be guaranteed or complete.

So, rip their arm off, gouge their eyes out, beat the shi* out of them until their skin is all nice and tender again, as well as electric shock therapy to stop those necrophiliac urges.. and you have one reformed Palemaster?

Probably more like "perform counter-rituals ad nauseum", since they use rituals to get all that weird stuff happening in the first place. The arm would probably need to come off, which is a pretty big deal as it would inhibit non-still'd casting and getting a new one is non-trivial to say the least (judging by what DMs have said on the topic, you'd be hard-pressed). Bone skin and other general bodily alterations could only be removed by rituals and same with darkvision, seeing as there's no definitive method as to how the darkvision is gained (though if it's a graft as well, gouge away). So yeah, the process would be pretty arduous.

Restoring pre palemaster-y probably involves a re-writing of personal Pattern, to use a Yoss-ism.

666WaysToHell wrote:

Is it possible to actually 'undo' the rituals? How it is played out on Amia there would be a lot more to it than removing the arm..

Shouldn't be. You make this choice once in a lifetime.

I'm pretty sure you can "undo" the undead graft. But you're still going to be an arm short, eye short or whatever dead meat you grafted on to yourself. In otherwords, make 100% sure before you chop off your arm. You can always lose an arm, getting it back is something else.

Ðraco wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can "undo" the undead graft. But you're still going to be an arm short, eye short or whatever dead meat you grafted on to yourself. In otherwords, make 100% sure before you chop off your arm. You can always lose an arm, getting it back is something else.

An arm, probably both eyes, and all of your skin, I'd say.

Isn't that fairly quick work for a Regeneration spell?

More than eyes/skin/arm, really. They are immune to crit and sneak. That implies that internal structures were changed as well. I don't think anything short of a wish/miracle ritual would even make a dent.

Lizzie wrote:

Ðraco wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can "undo" the undead graft. But you're still going to be an arm short, eye short or whatever dead meat you grafted on to yourself. In otherwords, make 100% sure before you chop off your arm. You can always lose an arm, getting it back is something else.

An arm, probably both eyes, and all of your skin, I'd say.

Regardless, my opinion is that the power of the class is not from grafts and abilities alone. Simply severing the graft and removing the implants would not undo who you are any more than a fighter losing his arm or eyes

As for regenerating as stated before the arm is part of "who you are" so regenerating would potentially just slap on a new bone arm

Larsaan wrote:

Isn't that fairly quick work for a Regeneration spell?

There's a whole new issue

If I remember correctly, no. If you were a palemaster, obviously have come to terms with your missing arm so the spell Regenerate wouldn't bring back a bodypart that's basically been long forgotten by the body.

Silkelock wrote:

As for regenerating as stated before the arm is part of "who you are" so regenerating would potentially just slap on a new bone arm

I couldn't see the body regenerating a new undead arm myself, I'd expect that lazy mage to go get himself another arm and graft it on if he happened to lose it

If I remember correctly I seen someone that was supposedly a "reformed" Palemaster in the entry way a while back. Missing his right arm. Or at least he told me he was a PM once. Aside from that I'd say turning away from your palemastery and reverting back to "full living" is totally possible. However as previously said really hard to make that switch.

Larsaan wrote:

Isn't that fairly quick work for a Regeneration spell?

As I hinted at before, and Yossarin so eloquently explains....

Quote:

...I again reference the notion of the Pattern: an individual's metaphysical signature that represents body, mind, soul, and carries resonance from the kind of magic they use (usually based on their paradigm). In a way you could consider it your magical DNA.

Let's say your Life pattern when you were born looked like this: W

And then later in life you get your right arm chopped off, and it looks like this: N

The Regeneration spell seeks to restore your life Pattern to the way it is supposed to be. So someone casts regeneration and it will restore your Life pattern to: W

Unless, of course, you have accepted in your head the fact that you have no arm anymore (mental), made peace with the phantom feeling of it being gone (spiritual - I often suggest that the whole feeling of a phantom limb people experience is a sign of the Pattern, you feeling what it wants to be but isn't), or possibly intentionally flayed your arm (magical paradigm - Palemaster), and then your natural pattern becomes: N

Regeneration will always restore it to N, rather than W.

Let's say you are BORN without a limb. That means when you're born, your pattern is N. I have always rationalized that people born with physical defects can never have them healed. Clerics can rationalize that this is because that is the way the gods willed them to be. Arcanists can use the Pattern example.

Either way, what this interpretation does is justifies the fact that the individual player can rule whether or not his or her scars and wounds and maimings are affected by healing or regeneration or restoration magics. If the player rules that his character has wholly accepted whatever he or she has lost (or in creepier instances, gained), then the player can legitimately say those spells won't work and really stick it to those assholes who non-chalantly tell you you can go get a fixer-upper with a cleric (I despise it when people do that, and I have seen it a lot in Amia).

I think people are exaggerating a bit. It wouldn't be a trivial thing to reform, but there's no reason the reverse rituals would be impossible if it was possible to become a Pale Master in the first place.

The "bone skin" is not undead, period. It reacts to healing magic. So it stands to reason thorough treatment with positive energy and regenerative spells might revive it. There's nothing conclusive said about the eyes, it seems like a pretty harmless spell.

But there's an even easier way. You grafted an undead arm onto your shoulder successfully. It shouldn't be much harder to stick a living arm in its place. Or make a skin transplant. Of course, if you're looking to give up your evil ways it might be harder to find a donor. >_>

Quote:

It shouldn't be much harder to stick a living arm in its place. Or make a skin transplant.

Silent2001 wrote:

Regenerating his arm after removing the boney one would just restore the boney arm because... it's his arm, its encoded in his DNA if you like.

+1

No, I disagree with what you quoted from Silent.

The grafted arm is the one part of the Pale Master that is explicitly undead. Regeneration magic wouldn't grow it back or fix it if it got broken. You can't heal undead with healing (positive energy) spells. I would say, going with Yossarin's pattern thesis (which is by no means beyond doubt, but reasonable enough), that nothing happens. Your arm doesn't grow back, either dead or alive.

But if you can graft an undead arm, make sure the negative energy doesn't taint the rest of your system, and use it with the finesse of a living arm; then you definitely should have the talent to do the same for a live arm. Not automatically, of course, but I seriously doubt it's beyond your capability to learn. It certainly seems easier than making living and undead parts compatible.

In fact, there are living monster grafts in the Realms. The Church of Amalgamation (a small cult, despite its name) in the novel The City Of Splendors, for example. It involved both surgical operation and magic. If you can graft an undead arm, a beholder eye or illithid tentacles onto yourself, it seems obvious that normal human parts would be doable with relative ease.

Don't pick a Palemaster without doing your homework and getting to know the class before you get into it. You decide to poison your body with grafts, you do it for good. I have nothing else to add. You have your oppinion, I have mine.

Bottom line you can disagree all you want. DM has the last say.

Well, the thing is, it's not a matter of "opinion." It's a matter of lore and facts based on sources. You have backed your interpretation with none. You're just spelling out your own preference, but this elaborate picture about irreversible poisoning of your body simply isn't there in the class description. Or if I'm wrong and there actually are clear statements to the contrary in source material, you should be able to provide them here.

Your interpretation is fine. You can feel free to add flair to your own RP and play the class a certain way. But you need to be able to take an objective distance and realize where the line between the core authoritative rules and additional fluff goes.

It's not his interpretation though. It's the DM interpretation. And that's the end of the line.

What are you even talking about? There's not a single DM post in this topic apart from the OP, which is a question. :shock:

(Unless you mean the Silent quote from some other topic, which is simple, uncontroversial brain fart as I'm sure he would agree.)

If you have any hard data that has an actual relevance to the topic, feel free to share. As far as I can see, there's no gray area here. If the question is, "can Pale Masters revert the changes" the uncontestable answer is "there is no lore to the contrary." How it could be done and with what success rate is up to the overseeing DM, but there's absolutely no lore support for Dead's claims.

We all know DMs can make a public declaration to overrule canon lofd, but there's absolutely no reason for anyone but the DM team to ever bring that up here. We can discuss facts and sources as intellectual peers, and our conclusions won't be subject to DM ruling; a DM can only change the canon consensus insofar as there is a consensus to change, of course. Ignorance is never justified.

What part of my thesis exactly do you doubt, and why?

Iron, you're suggesting taking a brand new arm from a kind donor, chopping off your old undead arm and replacing it with the fresh living arm, right? If so... yeah, what exactly is wrong with that? I mean sure, the Palemaster clearly hasn't learned their lesson about doing horrible things to their body and they might still be kind of corrupted inside... but the arm would be all alive and normal-looking, right?

Just excuse the remaining bone skin as a skin condition (oddly enough it seems to work).

Well yes, that's what I suggest might be one possibility.

And the other point about Regenerate absolutely not regenerating an undead graft because that's against the fundamental mechanics of undead and healing (negative and positive energy, if you will).

Well now we're a core of people who have an opinion on unbecoming a pale master.

Silent actually wanted to know lore on them

So, not being home and without my trusty Libris Mortis at hand I do remember that pale masters learned to craft bone armor. Was there a special reason for it or is it tied with the lore of the class that they just love undead?

Silkelock wrote:

Silent actually wanted to know lore on them

And he got unlore. This thread should be burned with fire.

Dead wrote:

Silkelock wrote:

Silent actually wanted to know lore on them

And he got unlore. This thread should be burned with fire.

+1

The discussion has hardly been constructive or applicable i dont know why it was not locked ages ago.

We get it. You are butthurt that your authority got undermined. You can now drop it and let us get back to talking about lore and canon sources thereof, as this forum is for.

There's been nothing out-of-line in this topic, except Dead's posts. Questions have been asked, questions have been answered, discussion has been had, and there are still topics pending resolution. It's all been very constructive and applicable, but if you disagree you are free to remedy the situation with your own contribution. Disruptive posts are not to be handled by a lock but by a punishment targeted at the transgressing individual.

To get back on topic and answer Silkelocke: I don't see any mention of crafting bone armor, but it might be elsewhere in the book. What Pale Masters do get is Undead Armor Affinity: at 4th level they get 10% less Arcane Spell Failure wearing undead armor (something I imagine is introduced elsewhere in the book as an item type), and at 8th this is increased to 20% less. The short explanation is that they have an "instinctive feel for undead armor." Seems to be one of those things you can create your own fluff around.

IronAngel wrote:

We get it. You are butthurt that your authority got undermined. You can now drop it and let us get back to talking about lore and canon sources thereof, as this forum is for.

There's been nothing out-of-line in this topic, except Dead's posts. Questions have been asked, questions have been answered, discussion has been had, and there are still topics pending resolution. It's all been very constructive and applicable, but if you disagree you are free to remedy the situation with your own contribution. Disruptive posts are not to be handled by a lock but by a punishment targeted at the transgressing individual.

Hmm, im not but hurt lol. My authority is not undermined this is an occ lore thread that means jack lol filled with a lot of OCC opiyions that mean jack to ic rp. In a thread created to help a person create a character that has been turned into arguments about lore that dose not exist in cannon and was then created icly by the player base over years. As there is no cannon lore, it is a simple matter of creating a character and working with the "table top" lore/rules created by the player-base.

Quote:

To get back on topic and answer Silkelocke: I don't see any mention of crafting bone armor, but it might be elsewhere in the book. What Pale Masters do get is Undead Armor Affinity: at 4th level they get 10% less Arcane Spell Failure wearing undead armor (something I imagine is introduced elsewhere in the book as an item type), and at 8th this is increased to 20% less. The short explanation is that they have an "instinctive feel for undead armor." Seems to be one of those things you can create your own fluff around.

In amia it has been RP that the final stages or elements of the rituals consisted of permanently encasing yourself in a set of bone-mail. To resemble another "modification" of the flesh using the PM abilities. It could be considered a graft.

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

In amia it has been RP that the final stages or elements of the rituals consisted of permanently encasing yourself in a set of bone-mail. To resemble another "modification" of the flesh using the PM abilities. It could be considered a graft.

That's a pretty clever interpretation of Tough As Bones/Deathless Mastery, and it has connection to the Armor Affinity ability quoted above. Probably the most credible explanation of all those immunities and traits without assuming him to be "really" half undead inside, somehow.

EDIT: Though it occurs to me it couldn't really be a proper armor set, not usually. They still get arcane spell failure, after all. I doubt they would want to graft onto themselves a permanent obstacle to spellcasting. But I imagine spell failure wouldn't have to apply if it's just something flexible around their torso.

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