AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Paladin questions regarding item properties.

It makes sense that there are some items and weapons that you just wouldn't find a Paladin using. I totally understand that items such as 'The Evil Sword of Evilness' aren't acceptable. What about specific properties? Can they be argued one way or the other?

- Vampiric Regeneration
- On Hit: Stun/Blind/Daze
- Negative Damage Bonus
Those are the main ones I was wondering about.

There is no constant correct answer to "would a paladin do X" questions. It depends on the paladin.

Depends on Paladin and Faith, yups, though I bet a common line of thought among them is to not use negative energy.

Agreed.

Not sure what's so bad or dishonorable about Crowd Control, though. It's OK to cut someone's jugular but unfair to hit them so hard they get dizzy? You're not striking a "helpless victim", you're fighting a fair duel where both sides had equal chance to use their combat prowess and resources to defeat the other.

Not sure how strictly you want to interpret Vampiric Regeneration. Is the mechanical effect aways a "vampiric" spell of draining life force? I could imagine an enchantment that fills you with zeal and energy as you smite your vile foes. That's one argument you could make, if you were so inclined.

If I recall correctly, there's a few weapons with Vampiric Regeneration whose description give them a druidic flavour. Considering what druids think about the undead, it probably doesn't have anything at all to do with vampirism or anything resembling it.

I'm just speculating, though.

You're probably very right. There's nothing that says the same effect is achieved in the same way on every weapon. For instance bonus fire damage can be added magically or chemically, but the item property is the same either way.

Gobbledygook wrote:

- Vampiric Regeneration
- On Hit: Stun/Blind/Daze
- Negative Damage Bonus
Those are the main ones I was wondering about.

Based on my character vamp regen and negative damage bonus is a no no. Can't see what is wrong with stun/blind/daze, we already have a spell that can make someone deaf

Granted, you could see cc as "dirty tricks" and thus dishonorable - quite like kicking sand into your opponent's eyes. But honor is the most obviously cultural or subjective aspect of the paladin's conduct, so it depends entirely on where he was brought up, who he worships and how he reasons (as Lizzie and Tormak pretty conclusively established already >_>). It might be a very important thing to the paladin not to use "unfair" magic weapons, but it's probably not a matter of cosmic significance.

Basically what I'm trying to say is: these things have no significance to the Multiverse and there's no absolute answer to give, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be absolute and momentous to an individual paladin. We don't have a firm answer, but a paladin probably would: he either considers them acceptable or he doesn't.

I agree. There are multiple ways to interpret the limited effects represented by the base NWN properties. The whole argument of them necessarily being "dirty tricks" doesn't hold water when you look at things like Ravages and Afflictions from the Book of Exalted Deeds. They essentially do the same thing as poisons and diseases, just with the caveat of only affecting evil things. Seeing as that's not mechanically possible in NWN without a custom script, I see no problem in RPing disabling effects with these. Just so long as that's what you're actually RPing them as, as a Paladin. I.E. Using a blade with drain: Wisdom and saying it's a holy affliction is fine, just don't go around saying it's a painful, mind-eating poison and expect not to run into trouble.

Negative energy I would generally say is a no-go. Negative energy by default has a chance to create Undead when it kills someone from what I understand, so it's not something most any Good divine PC would risk. I suppose if it was something like negative damage vs Evil only, you could RP it as some sort of Slaying effect, but otherwise and unless approved by the DM's, it's probably safe to say negative energy is always exactly that.

There's nothing with Vampiric Regeneration that constitutes being evil, other than the connotation of its name. Yes, it could be an actual vampiric magic, but it could be RPed as a number of other things that aren't so. Like the zeal thing that Iron mention. Or perhaps a property that only gives accelerated healing while the PC's blood is pumping(read: in battle, hitting things). It's like most properties: it can be explained and flavored up numerous ways. That's what allows us to say that 1d6 fire on a sword could be Elemental fire, or sacred fire, or hellfire, or a shaman's curse, or an alchemical reaction, etc, etc, etc.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Negative energy by default has a chance to create Undead when it kills someone from what I understand ...

That's not anything I've ever heard. Cite a source?

No source, made up, afaik.

I'm not sure of the source, but I thought that there either OoCly or ICly was the understanding that things like death magic and negative energies can cause undead. Maybe the Eternal Order has successfully indoctrinated me.

I do know one specific example similar to the claim, however. Shadows in PnP at least turn the creatures they kill/drain into other Shadows. Maybe that's where the concept comes from ICly, that negative energy is essentially draining something, so the same thing has a chance to happen from it.

from what I can see on Undead prorpagation page 11 of libris mortis,

Drain
Bleakborn,blood amniote,shadow,vampire wraith

Kill victim with ability
Bodak,forsaken shell

Disease
Ghast,Ghoul,Lacedon

Energy drain
Crypt chanter,slaughter wight.spectre,vampire,wight

Magical creation
lich,mummy,skeleton,zombie

Split
Dream vestige,skin kite

nothing about just plain old negative energy so I would belive its incorrect, because then everyspell that deals with negative energy would state about raising undead would it not?

Yeah, looked it up, what I'm recalling is just the E.O.'s theory on (Dark) Necromancy. Nothing official.

Quote:

The spells that create undead, summon undead servants or create new ones by using a dead corpse, twisting it into a hollow shell of its former self, animated with dark and negative energies. Others harm bodies with negative energies, sometimes draining them of life force. Both of these fall under the Dark necromancy term. They often kill their targets in such ways that make them often rise as undead. Sometimes they simply summon an already undead creature. All who use these spells are breaching Lord Kelemvor's laws and are subject to arrest and trial. These spells are an affront to all life, as they twist and drain it.

Even then, it speaks more to the spells than the actual energy itself doing the raising of undead. Not that the argument couldn't be made. It might be a square vs rectangle sort of deal. A lot of things that cause undead involve negative energy, but not all things that involve negative energy cause undead.

I imagine using a negative energy to kill someone with the intent of making them undead, would be like trying to restore a corpse to regular life using cure spells - it's fuel, but what you need is a spark (undead propagation mechanism, animate dead, or raise dead in the equivalent living example).

I am fairly certain it is actually canon material, but in which of the books I think I read it I do not recall. Will take a look for it some time.

Negative energy as such is pretty neutral. The way I interpret negative and positive energy is that one causes growth and activity, the other withers. Both can be harmful; there's certainly positive damage in the game. So it seems both could be beneficial, too. If positive energy can normally be channeled into healing but may also cause uncontrolled tumor growth and explosion from inside (which is how I like to interpret Hellball, for example), then I imagine negative energy could be used to wither tumors and thus treat cancer, for example. Clean abortion. Amputating a crushed limb to stop the bleeding by withering it if there's only a wizard and no healer around. Stuff like that.

As a weapon, though, it would have nasty connotations that probably don't sit well with a paladin. Not that you couldn't argue for it being as neutral as fire damage; I'm sure you could and the universe might agree. But what would be the motivation for a paladin to pick up this cool, glowing dark knife that poison's the target's life force with each stab? They're a pretty conservative lot, and I don't see why they would choose a negative energy weapon that's generally considered vile, instead of a holy avenger.

(While this is not the bit that I was searching for, it relates.)

Negative Energy as a Supportive Force:

"While atrocity may serve as a trigger for unlife, it is not enough to bring about a transformation of this magnitude on its own. It requires the very energy that drives dark spirits and their unqeuenchable thrist for life. That which is dead has no vitality, so where does the energy of animation come from? Negative energy - a force that is marshaled, storred and utilized mostly by evil creatures, malign deities, and theri servants - provides the power for this metamorphosis. Just as blood suffuses living creatures, negative energy suffuses undead, providing them all their abilities, from mobility to sentinence, from flesh-eating to soul-devouring."

- Libris Mortis - The Book of Undead - Page 7

Negative Level:

"(...)

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

A creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows (though not if the negative level is caused by a spell or similar effect).

Source: PHB, DMG"

- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... vel&alpha=

My paladin for example had created a straight "rules of engagement" which also consisted what not to use in battle etc etc which was more strict than anything that I've seen.
However, in general terms only vampiric regen would be an issue as a paladin, though a weapon with negative energy can look pretty lame in the hands of a paladin. Even in Star Wars the Sith knights had the red glowing saber

Regarding stun and other on-hit effects, you may have come across with that option if your character happen to be a devcritter. I had a devcritter pally and in case of a duel you can wait till the on-hit effect goes away;)

Every on-hit can be explained away as a Paladins connection through the divine will of his deity.

For instance a Paladin of Lathander could request an item with on-hit Blind and RP every successful blind as if "Dawn rose with his blade" or something similar

As for Vampiric Regeneration, I've always found it odd when folk suggest OOCly that it is inherently evil given that its actual property is already been explained on Amia in the form of the spell Blackstaff which provides a bonus to Vampiric Regeneration and is a Transmutation spell.

Vampiric Regeneration doesn't do "damage" which is what differentiates it from the spells such as Vampiric Touch, it from my perspective with regards to development, transmutes energy freed from a particular being by the combat action, from one source to another, which is why we ended up putting it on both Blackstaff and on Mighty Rage.

Hello! I'm new here, been silently watching the forums for a bit and decided to make an account today

Been playing NWN off and on across various roleplaying servers since right around patch 1.64.

In my experience, when it comes to Paladins (and sometimes Clerics), and whether an action, or using a particular means to an end (potentially evil items included), you should ask yourself these questions:

First, does the action I'm about to take (in this case, use an item with x item property) somehow violate my character's deities tenets of faith/commandments? Does the action I'm about to take violate any vows or promises my Paladin has made? Does it fit in with his/her own moral guidelines?

If the answer is yes to the first two or no to the third, your character probably shouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean you can't; just roleplay the consequences of such out (such as a fall-from-grace, guilt, seeking repentance, etc).

Cheers!

-NineCoronas

Paladin questions regarding item properties.

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