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I believe that somewhere a DM wrote that the merchants in question are undead.

What makes my spider senses tingling is the fact that most of the server's characters, regardless of their faith/alignment/oath are using those shops.

The question is.. is this an exception from the regular rules of dealing with undead, or they are simply not undead, or there is something third that I am not aware of?

I was told there'd be something done about it, but wouldn't be exactly high-priority.

Oh. I thought it was a ghost... o:

Ghosts aren't necessarily evil, even in Faerun setting, and you can't really destroy it either since it just comes back until its business is done. But I don't really know much about that guy. I never knew the Gauntlet guy was an undead though. It just looked like... Some masked shady person with nothing better to do but sit there for some bored adventurers with lots of money to stop by.

My characters usually had more problem with the skeleton in the Electric Castle and never purchased from there, being that it's an animated skeleton.

I was actually running into this with a recent character, my druid (and actually my druidic shifter, too). Both have never bought from the EC merchant (my shifter disapproved of approaching it when her party went, druid hasn't gone). Neither have gone to the epic shops yet so I was starting to wonder about them.

I also have been told they were ghosts rather than undead, but then someone mentioned them being undead as well. If we could just get clarification and probably call them ghosts until they are changed I think that would help a lot (since technically a lot of people might deserve a Fall for dealing with them, heh).

idk?

... ghosts *are* undead.

So are Baelnorns, but you wouldn't complain about having one of those, eh?

Liz wrote:

... ghosts *are* undead.

Shhhhhhhh :p

We mean 'good undead' and 'bad undead', silly.

Ghosts are undead indeed. If a druid/shifter is not allowed to shapeshift into a lich regardless of his true intentions and alignment, then direct haggling with an undead would fall into the same category imo. But yeah, a clarification would be nice.

Relics from another time. It's not exactly an easy case of swapping NPC A to NPC B though, since there's not really going to be many kinds of people happily waiting at the end of temples full of demons with nothing better to do.

Dead wrote:

Ghosts are undead indeed. If a druid/shifter is not allowed to shapeshift into a lich regardless of his true intentions and alignment, then direct haggling with an undead would fall into the same category imo. But yeah, a clarification would be nice.

I can see it going either way, though, but I'm not hugely indepth with druidic lore so I'm not sure.

Would druids not want to deal with benign spirits simply because they shouldn't be there? I always thought it was just against corpses/spirits being raised into undeath.

You're comparing a lich to a ghost...?

Tomato Sword wrote:

You're comparing a lich to a ghost...?

I'm comparing an undead to an undead. And nobody said it is a ghost. In the matter of a fact it is unlikely a ghost because ghosts do not act in such fashion, at least not according to cannon lore.

Dead wrote:

Tomato Sword wrote:

You're comparing a lich to a ghost...?

I'm comparing an undead to an undead. And nobody said it is a ghost. In the matter of a fact it is unlikely a ghost because ghosts do not act in such fashion, at least not according to cannon lore.

*Nothing* in canon lore acts like those creatures do. There are no mercantile incorporeal undead who hawk magical weapons to dungeoncrawlers, to the best of my knowledge.

The one in the Abyss should probably be changed to a more "earthly" body... You aren't going to find ethereal undead (or anything else) on the outer planes, they don't touch in any edition.

*somewhere in Abyss, in depths of Lost City, in one of rundown spires, after ages of silence, rustling sounds are head. Soon afterwards, ornate doors creak as they open, and skeletal figure in worn arcanist robes emerges, hauling a bunch of Bags of Holding*

Lich: Phew, finally done crafting all these powerful magic items for that king. Now, let's g- *gets peppered by crossbow bolts* Owowowow! The fu*k? *turns around noticing bunch of tanar'ri deadeyes and other demons charging at him* What are you doing he-owowowow!

*couple of demon slaying spells later*

Lich: *looks around at the ruins* Neighborhood really went bad...I guess it's time to relocate...sheeesh, you don't keep up track for a century or two, and it all goes into ruin...youngsters these days...

*quick trip to Zanshibon, where he learns king he made items for is long time dead*

Lich: Damnation. Now I have to find someone else to sell all this stuff to. *turns to nearest passing merchant* Hey you! Do you want to wo-

Merchant: Stay the f*ck away from me!

*Finger of Death and Raise Undead later*

Lich: All right. Now, you'll serve me by selling all this stuff for me, while I go on vacation.

Wraith merchant: ...

Lich: But you know, let's make it hard to get. I spent a load of time making these, and I don't want any fool with gold to get to them so easily. I'll set you a shop deep in Abyss, then spread the word about powerful artifacts being for sale for anyone brave enough to reach the place. There's bound to be some stupid enough adventurers around to actually try it. What say you, huh?

Wraith merchant: ....

I could imagine them being some sort of semi-sentient golem. They exist as an artifact of their creators, their purpose to clean the Forgotten Temple/Gauntlet. Unable to leave due to the instructions left by their long-dead masters, they collect the gear from fallen adventurers and demons alike and in turn sell them to those worthy enough to make it in. I'm not really sure what use a golem would have for gold, though.. perhaps it is a fuel source?

Was it not HotU which gave the player a summonable Djinni merchant early on in the game?
Constructs/Undead would leave them open to players capturing them for research imo. A Djinni I suppose could *poof* if things got hary. Also, them seem more inclined to such shenanigans as selling valuable items down in dungeons.

Silkelock wrote:

Was it not HotU which gave the player a summonable Djinni merchant early on in the game?
Constructs/Undead would leave them open to players capturing them for research imo. A Djinni I suppose could *poof* if things got hary. Also, them seem more inclined to such shenanigans as selling valuable items down in dungeons.

This sounds promising. We actually have a Djinni model in the toolset.

This has been brought up IC, to the point of defamation against a paladin that I think could have consequences. For the sake of accuracy, would it be possible to get something going in correcting this? I also like the djinni idea, personally!

I am rather curious on this also, because for out of I think three trips I went to the Abyss total I refused to buy anything IC from the shop due to it being undead. But I was corrected my last time going by a DM saying something I believe that the NPC was a ghost or a cursed person that was bound there. That Paladins could deal with them in forms of trade. If this is wrong I can fully understand but it was my impression it was not. Might be wise to clear it up of as the others suggested changing it to like a Dijinn which often do deal great items in the darkest of spots.

Remal: Now I just want to put the ghost out of its misery and exorcise it.

Can we do that as an event?

Remal wrote:

*somewhere in Abyss, in depths of Lost City, in one of rundown spires, after ages of silence, rustling sounds are head. Soon afterwards, ornate doors creak as they open, and skeletal figure in worn arcanist robes emerges, hauling a bunch of Bags of Holding*

Lich: Phew, finally done crafting all these powerful magic items for that king. Now, let's g- *gets peppered by crossbow bolts* Owowowow! The fu*k? *turns around noticing bunch of tanar'ri deadeyes and other demons charging at him* What are you doing he-owowowow!

*couple of demon slaying spells later*

Lich: *looks around at the ruins* Neighborhood really went bad...I guess it's time to relocate...sheeesh, you don't keep up track for a century or two, and it all goes into ruin...youngsters these days...

*quick trip to Zanshibon, where he learns king he made items for is long time dead*

Lich: Damnation. Now I have to find someone else to sell all this stuff to. *turns to nearest passing merchant* Hey you! Do you want to wo-

Merchant: Stay the f*ck away from me!

*Finger of Death and Raise Undead later*

Lich: All right. Now, you'll serve me by selling all this stuff for me, while I go on vacation.

Wraith merchant: ...

Lich: But you know, let's make it hard to get. I spent a load of time making these, and I don't want any fool with gold to get to them so easily. I'll set you a shop deep in Abyss, then spread the word about powerful artifacts being for sale for anyone brave enough to reach the place. There's bound to be some stupid enough adventurers around to actually try it. What say you, huh?

Wraith merchant: ....

This little story made me laugh in a way that made me poot.

Remal wrote:

*somewhere in Abyss, in depths of Lost City, in one of rundown spires, after ages of silence, rustling sounds are head. Soon afterwards, ornate doors creak as they open, and skeletal figure in worn arcanist robes emerges, hauling a bunch of Bags of Holding*

Lich: Phew, finally done crafting all these powerful magic items for that king. Now, let's g- *gets peppered by crossbow bolts* Owowowow! The fu*k? *turns around noticing bunch of tanar'ri deadeyes and other demons charging at him* What are you doing he-owowowow!

*couple of demon slaying spells later*

Lich: *looks around at the ruins* Neighborhood really went bad...I guess it's time to relocate...sheeesh, you don't keep up track for a century or two, and it all goes into ruin...youngsters these days...

*quick trip to Zanshibon, where he learns king he made items for is long time dead*

Lich: Damnation. Now I have to find someone else to sell all this stuff to. *turns to nearest passing merchant* Hey you! Do you want to wo-

Merchant: Stay the f*ck away from me!

*Finger of Death and Raise Undead later*

Lich: All right. Now, you'll serve me by selling all this stuff for me, while I go on vacation.

Wraith merchant: ...

Lich: But you know, let's make it hard to get. I spent a load of time making these, and I don't want any fool with gold to get to them so easily. I'll set you a shop deep in Abyss, then spread the word about powerful artifacts being for sale for anyone brave enough to reach the place. There's bound to be some stupid enough adventurers around to actually try it. What say you, huh?

Wraith merchant: ....

Lololololol ^^ love it

Aside from that, I think there are two points needing to be made here. I play a druid so feel qualified to contribute.

First, I would like to say that it is entirely an option to keep the shops as is, simply clarifying the 'deadness' of the merchants. This does not prevent druids/paladins and what not from being able to get stuff from them. This is actually a chance for some semi mundane rp. "Hey, I'm all naturey/righteous! But.... I need some better gear to slay undead/baddies. Can I hire you with hazard pay to enter the abyss and retrieve these items for me? If you betray me and take my money, I will hire assassins after your "I don't take sides" ass. Okay good."

On the other hand, I am not so certain that druids should be forced to never deal with undead. While it is abhorrent because of its unnatural form, it is entirely possible that a shamanic type druid (such as mine) would commune with the spirit world. Be it benign or malevolent spirit that is reached matters not. Spirits/ghosts, imo, should not technically be considered undead. A spirit that remains on the material plane, just as irl, is still a natural being. No one created it. It is simply a remnant. Anyhow.. I could go way into more detail on this, comparing it to native american/celtic rituals and the like but yeah... I think you all get the idea and this isn't the thread for that.

Comments?

MOD

Nature spirits are usually ethereal fey or some sort of divine being.
A ghost is a type of incorporeal undead, which is different from other such things as wraiths and alyps (however that's spelled).
Most druids aren't going to want to commune with ghosts and such.
Incorporeal Deathless depends on how tolerant the druid is of those.
I guess the point of this post is not all spirits are ghosts. Or undead.
But ghosts are undead.
I have no idea what the Abyss/Gauntlet shops count as.

...

Yes.

I didnt really mean naturey spirits. I'm eventually leading my druid to be more shamanistic. Consider native american elder of a tribe. Consider the Ice Folk in Dragonlance if you are familiar. They are tribalistic people that believe everyone has a spirit animal. They receive signs from these spirits and are really good with animals and nature in general (horse whisperer and such). Maybe I was a bit vague or this is a confusing concept but I don't feel like all druids have to be a certain way. I believe that Gygax wanted our imaginations challenged and that we can interpret how a character/class should be so long as it is within the realm of reason for the setting. Anyhow.. again, off topic so yeah. Gonna shut up now before this starts a flame war. Someone always gets all uppity when you veer from the projected path for a bland character. *shrugs* I'm out. Peace.

MOD

I've never really seen much of an IC justification to that place at all really, I think it's one of those things that's sort of just your reward for making it through the abyss as a player and not a character. I can't really see any other reason for it to be there, kind of like the Gauntlet, but harder.

Sometimes I realize I have to just sit back shut up and enjoy, like when you're watching Sharknado.

And yes, it's okay if seeing that video makes you a better human being. That's what it's there for.

this gives me conflictions down to the bones having got there once before GS was patched...(abyss, I know not of this 'other shop' which you speak.)

1. is it really undead if its a ghost in the abyss, or is it dead? planar stuff..
2. it couldn't be anything else for druids sake because, its the abyss, the merchant would die.
3. its supposed to the the bonus for making it past nth traps and demons, not bane of paladins

and, if you want to get technical hil'rash is a necromancer isn't he?

all the above without a philisophical argument that negative energy is nessecary for the cycle of life and death to exist and is therefore natural >_> hippies be damned.

ed: I realise these observations are going back a ways. also occured to me tarkuul isn't much different sans the anti-alignment gate.

Glyph wrote:

also occured to me tarkuul isn't much different sans the anti-alignment gate.

There's no such thing as anti-alignment gate in Tarkuul. Any alignment, any race, any class can enter Tarkuul. From LG Paladin to CE Blackguard.

Dead wrote:

Glyph wrote:

also occured to me tarkuul isn't much different sans the anti-alignment gate.

There's no such thing as anti-alignment gate in Tarkuul. Any alignment, any race, any class can enter Tarkuul. From LG Paladin to CE Blackguard.

However, do be so kind as to notify us in advance if a LG paladin is coming by so that we may greet said paladin correctly.

Dead wrote:

Glyph wrote:

also occured to me tarkuul isn't much different sans the anti-alignment gate.

There's no such thing as anti-alignment gate in Tarkuul. Any alignment, any race, any class can enter Tarkuul. From LG Paladin to CE Blackguard.

I think Glyph left before this was a thing.

Yep, we corrected the IC hypocrisy of an open city of knowledge that has selective, mind-reading portals

I was gonna say, I remember that used to be a thing XD

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Relics from another time. It's not exactly an easy case of swapping NPC A to NPC B though, since there's not really going to be many kinds of people happily waiting at the end of temples full of demons with nothing better to do.

To NPC A to B you could consider making it a Khayal, Genie of the Shadow Plane, don't even need to change appearance. see Tome of Magic page 162 those who are playing at home.

To summarise the most pertinent parts of the description; a Khayal might provide a service to mortals who have suitably impressed them. They look down upon the "lesser beings" with equal contempt and enjoy deceiving them.

Food for thought anyhow.

I like this idea a lot, and it would give the abyss shop reason for being there. I'd rather not see it gone (unless it's replaced with something cooler) but I personally think it needs more of a reason for its existence than it just being a ghostly trader from the ruins of an old city full of demons.

And paladins trading with it sort of does break their RP.

- Removing the shop will highly vex most of the server, to put it mildly.
- Regardless of class and conviction, if high quality items are for sale they'll get bought, believe me.
- Does everything really need to be explainable, perhaps this is something something beyond the understanding?
- (for the DM's I do hope that shop keep is lv 100 just in case some idiots get idea's)

Yes it was about time I stuck my nose into this, if only for one post.

It'd be easier said than done to exorcise that ghost, or whatever. A demon prince or somesuch might catch interest if some goodlie two socks stomped across his layer of dominion, then attempted to wrangle the status quo by perforating one of the best local attractions. To my knowledge, plenty of people have died as they've attempted to reach the ghost, feeding the demons.

That said, I've always supported the genie idea. It would make sense for an interdimensional merchant to offer his wares to those powerful enough to make their way across the nightmarish wastes. Powerful people tend to be wealthy, and I'm sure the whole process of getting to the temple would be highly amusing to a genie, to boot.

I find the whole idea of exorcism shallow truth be told. I have the feeling that this is being pushed for the OOC reasons.

+1 for the ghost to be retconned to a shadow plane genie.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

+2 for the ghost to be retconned to a shadow plane genie.

I used to have an NPC merchant who would sometimes replace boss monsters and sell loot and mythals to hunting adventurers who stumbled onto him. If there was interest in changing the ghost to something else, there's already some precedent for said NPC to be there.

Let me see if I can dig out my old laptop. I had an updated Gauntlet on there that I stepped away from for unspecified reasons. If I can recover the area, I'll send it in. It's like 80% done. Then it'd be up to the DMs if they want to add the area.

P Three wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

+3 for the ghost to be retconned to a shadow plane genie.

Everytime i see a Paladin visit that store i cringe... Please put something else there

I actually think it'd be better not to retcon and instead replace it with something there might be precedence for.

It's not a retcon building, Bobo.

I'm a full time evil player and have no horse in this race, but I would like to see the ghost merchant not be a ghost. Seriously, though. Instead of an evil shadow genie (or at least it sounds evil) make it something that's true neutral so that the goodies who go there can get their reward without having to worry about fallen widgets.

My NPC is true neutral.

I thought I'd put in my suggestion that just came to me.

Why not a Golem of somekind thats on -auto- pilot? It's creator laying dead as a corpse on the ground but it's still minding the store. "pocket golem" npc maybe? It really doesn't need to talk. Just looks at the customer expectantly and when they point out what they want it gets it for them and collects the coin.

lol or could use the whole lich on vacation story but instead of a wraith use a golem and remove the corpse on the floor.

I like the idea of a dragon who slays stupid adventurers and sells their stuff and some things from his hoard to the PCs for exorbitant prices.

"Welcome, adventurer! Your journey through the gauntlet was riveting. My scales are still tingling from watching you defy death at every turn. It had everything a dragon could wish for: action, adventure, a touch of intrigue, wholesale slaughter, fear and terror. Between the two of us, I would have preferred a scene or two of romance, but beggars cannot be choosers. However, you may choose to purchase something from my hoard. Collected from those adventurers who were less entertaining than yourselves..."

Ah, Yoss is still Yoss I see. Bah, but then Bahamutians/certain Good PCs will be unable to abide by a dragon apparently willing to slaughter on a whim.

Not that such a thing would bother me at all, but we're back at square one.

I was just being cheeky, mostly in jest. He could just say he collected the goods from their bodies after they failed the gauntlet and is now putting it to good use. If anyone wanted to use such a cockamamie idea as a dragon, and dragons come with all sorts of problems in incorporating.

Abyss/Gauntlet shop

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