AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

As Opus touched on, a good anti-mage is a mage. I've a level 28 wizard (going for 30 wiz, screw Tumbledumps) that will have 40 geared INT, Epic Spell Pen, ESF Necro and GSF Evoc. Pretty much will beat out any SR check and destroy a mage's saves (I think his checks can rival even a monk's saves, but not sure on the maths). He's rather fun in PvE.

Quote:

Naturally, an AA can "counter" most mages, but still they can't make up for their imminent lack of saves with their massive damage output. Or, yes they can, actually

I forgot to add 10 Monk 2 Wizard 18 AA in there.

MoshingChris wrote:

I forgot to add 10 Monk 2 Wizard 18 AA in there.

Ooh that looks nasty.

MoshingChris wrote:

Quote:

Naturally, an AA can "counter" most mages, but still they can't make up for their imminent lack of saves with their massive damage output. Or, yes they can, actually

I forgot to add 10 Monk 2 Wizard 18 AA in there.

Details, Sensei! Details!

Elf:
11 Str
19 Dex -> 26
10 Con
10 Wis
14 Int
10 Cha

1 - 7 Monk
8 Wizard
9 Monk
10 - 19 AA
20 Monk
21 - 27 AA
28 Monk (Discipline 31)(Tumble 30)
29 Wizard (Dump spellcraft to 32)
30 AA (Spot 33)(Hide 33)(Move Silently 33)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus Longbow, Rapid Shot, Improved Critical Longbow, Great Fort, Skill Focus Spot, Called Shot

Epic Feats: Armor Skin, Epic Fort, Epic Skill Focus Spot, Epic Skill Focus Discipline
Arcane Archer Epic Bonus Feats: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess

There are a few variations of this build but if your going for a so-called Wizard Killer having a spell-craft dump stat so you know what spells are being thrown at you is a handy thing to have. It costs you 1 ab/damage from the AA enhancement but in the long run grants you another +2 to your spellcraft saves.

Could always go drow for the SR - the loss of two levels bites, but you should still be hitting hard enough that you can afford to drop the ~2 AA levels, yes?

Unless you want to RP the Drow and/or have a concept for it or working on one and are likely to play it, I personally don't recommend it. AA's can be a rather annoying build to level at times. Especially low STR ones. The amount of arrows you carry around along with the ECL, any exp penalties and general inability to afford things most of the characters life in game all weigh up quite heavily (In my eyes, by no means law) and make it very unappealing. But if you think you can bear with it, then go for it of course.

And yes, I do understand one of the current richest characters in the game happened to be an AA at one time and got rich before losing the AA levels in favour f where their RP lead them, but to be fair, having the STR to carry a fair amount of loot in the space you actually have left in your inventory is a massive advantage, as opposed to not being able to afford magic bags or able to obtain ones worth while, while being essential for low STR characters and have to carry very few items considering you can often find things as heavy as full plate sometimes. With the exception of when you find lots of smaller loot, like rings and such or deity rings which can be fairly valuable when they become available to you.

MoshingChris wrote:

Elf:
11 Str
19 Dex -> 26
10 Con
10 Wis
14 Int
10 Cha

1 - 7 Monk
8 Wizard
9 Monk
10 - 19 AA
20 Monk
21 - 27 AA
28 Monk (Discipline 31)(Tumble 30)
29 Wizard (Dump spellcraft to 32)
30 AA (Spot 33)(Hide 33)(Move Silently 33)

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus Longbow, Rapid Shot, Improved Critical Longbow, Great Fort, Skill Focus Spot, Called Shot

Epic Feats: Armor Skin, Epic Fort, Epic Skill Focus Spot, Epic Skill Focus Discipline
Arcane Archer Epic Bonus Feats: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Prowess

There are a few variations of this build but if your going for a so-called Wizard Killer having a spell-craft dump stat so you know what spells are being thrown at you is a handy thing to have. It costs you 1 ab/damage from the AA enhancement but in the long run grants you another +2 to your spellcraft saves.

Thankyouverymuch! Looks like I might have to take a look at an AA.

Dak, you might very much enjoy it. They're quite fun to play even with the downfalls I mentioned, especially with their tasty arrows (I don't suggest eating them, but whatever floats your boat) I've not made a Monk one on Amia, although did want to, but the monk adds to the fun a fair deal and adds a lovely extra edge in survivability as opposed to the usual squishyness of other variations, especially the ones unable to get epic dodge for whatever reasons.

While we're talking about AA's, I've got a concept I've been meaning to try out. Basically it's a shadowdancer who uses a bow. I realise this has been done in a number of ways, but my focus is going to be going for 20 SD levels on it. So basically it's an elven shadowdancer who uses a bow to keep his distance, Shadowdaze to keep enemies under control (30 sec cooldown), and his supersummon PvE? Would be a scouting character. Traps hopefully. Gets to use the AA arrows which is his source of damage. Epic dodge, as many stealthy abilities as possible, possibly spotting?

At the moment I'm thinking it'd be something along the lines of 7 Bard, 3 AA, 20 SD. Probably taken in the order of 7 Bard -> 10 SD -> 3 AA, then 10 SD. It seems to fit, but the skills end up a bit messy. I'm not entirely sure which ones I should focus on (apart from the obvious Hide/MS/Spot/Tumble).

Will edit this post when I have my build written out, but any ideas in the meantime would be helpful!

The loss of the APR can be annoying with this kind of build. If you went dual wield and added fighter into the mix (moreso this would be a completely different build, rogue/fighter/SD and I'm not suggesting it against what you want, just using it for examples sake) you'd have 6 APR. lose fighter, 5. Use a bow a maximum of 3 excluding haste. The AA will give you the benefit of 3 more AB for each level + 2 additional on top of that from the arrows enhancement they gain.

Your AB maybe quite a sore sight to see only having 3 levels of AA and may not hit as often as would be ideal, I could be wrong though, especially considering what you may be intending to use the build for, of course.

But it does have good points I can see immediately. The advantage of range, a beast of a summon to take away the focus from you as that is very important for just about every archer out there, you'll be able to utilise shadow dazing with no real limit besides the cool down, mind blanks and creatures with mind immunity - bit not everything is prepared 24/7 vs this and your damage may actually be bearable even without the use of a heavy investment in AA, STR to any degree or even Rogue levels, due to how powerful the AA arrows can be.

As for skills, if you can fit in UMD without compromising another just as important skill, then access to premonitions can be very useful at times not to mention Imp. Invis wands of pure joy. Assuming you can get high enough to use either.

Just some things you should consider in your venture to decide if it is worth it or not for you.

Thanks for the tips Anubis. Have a look at this, this is what I have so far:

Moon Elf
Bard 7 / AA 3 / 20 SD

10 STR
19 DEX (Ends on 26)
10 CON
14 INT
8 WIS
13 CHA

Normal feats:
Point BS
Dodge
Mobility
Wep Foc Longbow
Rapid Shot
Weapon Finesse (Will drop for Blindfight if needed)

Epic feats:
Epic focus longbow
Epic Shadowlord
Epic focus Hide
Epic focus Spot
Epic Dodge
Epic focus MS
Epic Prowess

Skills: 10 UMD, 30 Tumble, 10 Spellcraft, 1 PP, 33 MS, 33 Hide, 10 Discipline, 6 Perform, 33 spot.
69 points left over.

About to go make a test version of this and see how it goes with a mundane longbow.

It's terribly interesting to see where the discussion is going.
At one hand there's the old fashioned sensei group whom favours a monk with high SR and Improved evasion to counter most of the nasty hell a mage can dish out. It's very lore accurate that a monk should be the sort of magus killer, the anti-magus killer if you prefer so. The only real downside is that whether you have 10-20-30 monk levels - There's one single tiny spell that can ruin the day for you. And that's either acid sheet (or flame shield).
I call it a gamble to have an entire character and his build revolve around the hopes that his enemy will not use one of those spells allready mentioned.

Then there's the Hide and seek gang. They want to favour stealth and deception, and even prod in some ranged capability in the mix in order to preform what i 'Suspect' would be a hit and run tactic.
This looks extremely deadly - A menacing woodland stalker that creeps up on his enemy and plugs a myriad of wooden sticks into his belly, chest and head. This is lethal, really lethal.
But what if said mage ... spots him?
Most mages are wizards, and they have so many skillpoints that they don't know where to use them. A vast majority puts them into spot. A LOT of spot.
Same goes with sorcerers.

Then there's the third faction that cries out in despair at all the above. They mean that magic is best countered by magic. Fight fire with fire, or in this case - A fucking flamethrower!
If only mages had silence...

Do we have a fourth variable? Opustus mentioned some kind of hybrid

Straight up hardcore melee would work, I think. Maxed gear. Listen to help with hearing invisi-mages. Not sure on the spread, really. Pally could work for defending against evil mages. But, then, Pally (ick). Weaponmaster, too. Melee just means you have to not be obvious about what you are going to do.

There has to be something ranged that will work without being a Hider, too. Well, probably anything AA since it will blitz the Premonition and if you have Haste/monk levels you won't be caught. Keep moving and the mage will be forced to click on you to cast. Plus use objects to break LoS for casting, then run back around. More like Tag than Hide and Seek XD

Screw that. You just have to kill the bugger before it kills you and not get tangled into its silly spells. Damage + Good saves + Non-buff-reliance = Dead mage. And this it shall be, forever and always, amen. As I mentioned, monks haven't got enough damage to bite through the mage's Acid Cheat and Premonition. AA is also a good pick against mages in general. Oh, yeah, what he said.

Gobbledygook: An absolutely wonderful build. Yes, do drop Weapon Finesse for Blindfight. Blindfight is the sneaker's multifunction omnitool, and without it, you're a twat. As for the skills, I'd probably opt for cross-class maxed Spellcraft and Discipline. You could always start with less INT and STR, and sacrifice ESF MS for Epic Dexterity I to end up with a bit higher AB and AC and Hide. I'd personally rate that more prominent.

If we expand upon the mage vs mage idea then? What would be the perfect mage who hunts other mages? Automatic silenced spells? Or Quickened?

Abjuration focus seems to be quite cool, If you look at the modified spells in that school. Not to mention having an extra 3d6 power in your spell mantle.

Hybrid - clicky click

Gobble:

With that build I'd drop weapon finesse in favour of blindfight any day at the blink of an eye. It just doesn't have the same effectiveness if you had sneaks to rack up your melee damage output.

Epic I'd lose epic skill MS. It's by no means essential IMO and anyone who invests into it's counter, listen has a wide variety of ways to easily boost it. Admittedly they are more short term boosts in some cases compared to spot, but I've found that listen, even when at teen levels can be relatively easy to boost. Slight side note regarding spot vs listen, spot is of the general consensus to be the more superior one, the fact if someone uses HIPS after you hear them you lose them for a whole round until it re-rolls the check.

Epic prowess may not be all that much of a helping hand either, but others may have a difference in view on that one.

I don't know if there's anything else for me to add, I can't think of anything right now, atleast.

And Svensk, sheathes and whatnot are nasty, but so are Hellball's and Greater Ruins! There's an abundance of things to take into consideration, though and I'd suggesting not think too deeply into them all, as it may be more time consuming than it is worth in the end.

Edit:

Quicken can be a major advantage for you if the other Mage happens to already have haste up or even if they don't.

Thanks for the advice Uncle Op. I'll go try it out and see how it changes!

Silent spell doesn't confer any benefits as far as I know. I would say ESF in spells that a mage is weak against (ie Fort/Ref saves). High INT is a must. Full level mage.

Quickened... maybe. It's handy as hell but it's gimped with coutnerspelling. IMO Quickened + Hasted spells should have to be countered with Quickened + Hasted spells, but they can be countered with Hasted spells. It just makes sense. Otherwise the only benefit in a mage-mage fight is not needing Haste (but you lack the other bonuses of Haste, which can be a big deal unless I'm wrong). So I dunno about that.

Before the TS nerf Auto Quick 3 + TS/Mord's chain could destroy a party of mages, I would think.

Monk vs Mage can go just fine with the right build. I've even got a counter for Bard Song.

JOIN ME, NAVIATKU.

I had a nice time with my auto-quickened Mage, despite all the ways I made him flawed. Often the only thing that got me killed was when I got careless or hit by mass lag.

You're right about the haste thing, too. That boost in speed can be essential just about all the time. I dare you to go into a spell slinging rage vs the Fire Giant King without it and trying to run away in between. :lol:

Someone mentioned Monk/Wizards. I toyed with the idea of a speedy monk/wiz that summoned a Githzerai Savant. Imagine that. Two speedy SoB's charging at you wrapped in spells. Scary.

Also EMA for even more crying of blood.

I had a couple of counters for Bard Song. But I thought, be a boss and take the curse like a man while still handing their rear end to them.

And I like the way you think, Naivy boy.

My mage hunter will be another mage himself. And i have chosen abjuration to be his first focus.
What should his next be? What fits?

Ideas! Shoooooot!

Very_Svensk wrote:

What should his next be? What fits?

Ideas! Shoooooot!

That's what she said.

Evocation. Enchantment. Conjuration. All nice schools IMO. pick the one with the spells you like the most, or better yet the ones with the most effective spell for what you need in general. Necromancy is a good option too, drop tha' bishes shadow shield and wail of the banshee/finger of death/whatever floats your proverbial boat the most.

Be a specialist and be a mulan and focus on all those who are thayan and abuse the power of the wizard stuff!

Or just focus on all necros on a mystran etc. Be a specialist wizzie for fun!

Hey all.

Long time no see. I'm hoping to come back to Amia after a long absence (*cough* exploding computer *cough*), and am looking around at build ideas.

Current thoughts are a drow combative. I like the idea of a slightly roguish battle leader and the ability to summon a greater demon to my side is appealing as hell. I've been playing with a few ideas but I'm a bit rusty at NWN/Amia rules so here goes:

Drow:
Rogue 3/Fighter 9/BG 16
Rogue 9/BG 16/ KC 3
Fighter 9/BG 16/ KC 3

The Rogue levels get me tumble and UMD but I'm worried the character may be somewhat feat starved. Knight Commander is more of a flavour thing than anything else, but at low levels and in parties I imagine those auras will be pretty useful. I would like to see if Divine Champion would be of use here, but that is the class I am most unfamiliar with.

Anyway. Thoughts. Shoot.

Go now, leave this thread, go back from whence you came!

All those options appear appealing to me, but that said the one with the 9 fighter, third build will have the higher AB due to all classes being full BAB progression. Though the one with all max BAB is the least appealing, due to lack of UMD and tumble.

So I ask you, what is more important, 5d6 additional flank damage to any not immune (This is a nice one and iirc it's 10d6 with the BG at 16 levels Altogether!) or a slightly higher AB with smaller survivability, granted that if you go enough Cha and take the lovely divine feats they somewhat make up for the -6 AC from no tumble.

Strength based builds like those (the one with rogue I am aiming this at) can be brutal and are not lacking in DPS before or after sneaks. I'd highly recommend the rogue variation of your choice, mind. Tumble and UMD are essential in my eyes, especially for a build like that.

And the there's the Dex based. Higher survivability, you can use the best shield you want, taking into the consideration of weight and still be dealing decent damage With the 9 rogue one. Mostly on flanking though.

The 9 rogue seems the superior of the three damage wise of you go STR route.

Ive been thinking the past few days about a Barbarian Shaman type character...like a young warrior on a spirit quest type deal...heres what I have so far. Im not much of a builder so please tell me if this is way off...

Bab 15/Druid 5/Shifter 10
Human
Str 18
Dex 10
Con 14
Wis 14
Int 8
Cha 8

Bab 1-10
Druid 11-15
Shifter 16-18
Bab 19-20
Shift 21-28
Bab 29-30

Feats: Blind Fight, Wep Focus Greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Great Cleave, Alertness, Improved Crit Greatsword

Epic Feats: Gret Str 1, Armor Skin, Overwhelmin Crit, Epic Prowess, Dev Crit

Hitpoints: 360
Skillpoints: 132
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/16/13
BAB: 22
AB (max, naked): 32 (melee), 23 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 10/18
Spell Casting: Druid(3)

Is that terrible? Im way out of my league...only my second char really and the first one I ever tried to build myself from an idea. I just thought he could be fun to rp as like a wild, spirit warrior type. Any ideas?

If you're going for 10 Shifter and taking the 10th Shifter level in epic, you can get Undead Shape on that level as a general feat. I'd highly recommend doing that, probably at the cost of Epic Prowess or Armor Skin, depending on what you value more.

Yeah, with only a few class levels and no epic shape feats, you'll be very inferior to other epic level characters both damage and durability wise.

It is also worth keeping in mind that shifter, druid, and barbarian to a lesser (but still significant) extent scale off of a greater level investment, whereas they're normally built in such a way that one of those particular classes make up ~66%+ of the levels.

I find that build to be an interesting layout, one I've never tried or even considered before. Undead shape, though seems a bit iffy to me depending on what kind of Barbarian you have a concept for. I may just be looking at it wrong and understanding the use of a shaman type with a spirit quest, but that reinforces my opinion on the use of Undead shape.

But really, it comes down to you and your characters moral coding and personal beliefs in the end anyway, which you give to him.

I know this is probably something you know already, but minimal Druid means you don't have to RP those levels in a Shifter, though I suppose it fits with your shaman idea for the character.

But as stated before me, your forms will be inferior as opposed to having epic forms and with the lack of the other ones you can take as feats, outsider etc...though you have the advantage of no need for heavy Wis investments in your current layout, I'd even go as far as suggesting losing about five levels in Barbarian in favour of a number of the epic forms. Though you probably still won't have the best ones available and still with the lack of the additional ones. I do realise you probably went with so many Barb in favour of Greater Rage, but if you're willing to drop that you may find some benefits in what you gain with the additional Shifter levels, maybe not big ones, mind.

Keeping all that in mind, I'm fairly sure that heavy investment in Shifter and Wis will improve your forms abilities they can use, the Rakshasa forms spells of nuclear destruction, for example ( Don't be mislead, they aren't that strong!). Well I say fairly sure but I know for deffinite more levels invested into shifter = more out of the class and what it features as a whole.

One last point to consider, if you were to go up to 19 Shifter you would have infinite base shifter forms and at the epic upgrade they get for going the respective levels that correspond to when they upgrade past shifter 10. I believe you start with Wyrmling form upgraded on your first epic Shifter level, beyond that I don't remember but I'm sure it's listed on the sidebar some where. But if you think you have a solid concept you want to stick with, you could even try going as little as 5 - 6 Barb to still have that in your concept.

I gave it a second glance and it is way, way off. The build doesn't seem like a shifter in the slightest given your weighty investment in strength, and the focus in a weapon that none of the shifter forms you have access to wields. The last thing of note is that you've alloted yourself one too many epic feats.

If you absolutely must go the hybrid route with both druid and barbarian levels, I'd suggest a build focused around the barbarian's namesake rage, because it is usable across every form and without it you're using the class as a mechanically deficient fighter. Terrifying Rage popped on an Azer or a Risen Lord can be a pretty potent thing as it lasts for ages and both carry weapons with pretty nifty crit multipliers. Keep in mind though, with this build you'll only get one of those and Azer will of course force you to also accommodate outsider shape's 25 wisdom requirement.

How important is Taunt to a KC/BG? I mean, like is it really important? I know Entreatment works off of it, but nothing else for KC/BG, right?

I also know it's useful for Taunting mages and people in GS bubbles. But is Entreatment really worth it? I ask because the choice is between ranking Taunt or Heal.

Also, how easy is it to get Taunt gear? It's a Will save, so it should be fairly high to beat a high-Will character.
And does Entreatment/Taunt bypass Mindblank?

Taunt can hurt you as much as it can help you.

Only if you have no idea when to use it. I doubt that entreatment incurs flat-footedness like taunt when used though, so I'd say taunt would be a far better investment than heal.

Entreatment isn't a spell, so mind blank shouldn't foil it.

Bini wrote:

Only if you have no idea when to use it. I doubt that entreatment incurs flat-footedness like taunt when used though, so I'd say taunt would be a far better investment than heal.

Entreatment isn't a spell, so mind blank shouldn't foil it.

Definitely want confirmation on this.

Sune, I summon yooooooooouuuuuuuuuu!

If it does then it is brokeeeeeeeeeeeeen and needs to be fixed though.

What. How can you even consider Heal over Taunt? Srsly...

Taunt is fantastic skill to have for both PvM and PvP, even if your class doesn't use on it.

And yes, Entreatment is not affected by an immunities.

I have not used Taunt at all, to be honest. I have a little on my Barb, I think. That's fun.

But yeah, I think I will have to take Taunt. I mean, Mindblank-proof concentration breaking? Yes, please.

Something you may like to know: Go away.

No really, though. If you enter combat then try to taunt, you have to cancel the combat icon in the top left corner for it to follow through with the Taunt. And when you taunt make sure to re-attack your target, because it doesnt make you attack automatically afterwards.

And sometimes pressing taunt before initiating combat will sometimes get you too run at the target then just stop... and do nothing. Unless you're already close, where it happens less where it just stops without taking the action of taunting.

Anubis wrote:

Something you may like to know: Go away.

No really, though. If you enter combat then try to taunt, you have to cancel the combat icon in the top left corner for it to follow through with the Taunt. And when you taunt make sure to re-attack your target, because it doesnt make you attack automatically afterwards.

And sometimes pressing taunt before initiating combat will sometimes get you too run at the target then just stop... and do nothing. Unless you're already close, where it happens less where it just stops without taking the action of taunting.

Yeah I've seen that happen. It's retarded lol

Taunt is practically a must have on any character than can make use of it. The casual disregard so many melee characters and even a-lot of caster characters have for concentration makes even 20 ranks in the skill worth it.

Reposting to see if anyone wants to take a shot at helping:
Trying to figure out the details of a Wizard/Monk build, wavering between Wiz 23/Monk 6/Ranger 1 and Wiz 26/Monk 3/Ranger 1. I don't have experience with epic levels to know what's necessary as far as AB, AC, SR, Spell save DCs, etc....

Already started the char, but got to a point where I don't know what to do next, so haven't played for a while. Currently Wiz 14/Monk 1 with the following feats:
Blind Fight
Extend Spell
Empower Spell
Maximize Spell
SF/GSF: Evocation
SF/GSF: Enchantment
WF: Kama

Have 1 Wiz feat and 1 general pre-epic feat left and then epic feats. Final INT will be 26.

Where should I go from here? The recent posts about SR make me think the Wiz 26/Monk 3/Ranger 1 might be the better option....at the expense of +4 AC, +1 AB, IKD and extra 10% speed with Monk 6...*shrug* I obviously don't know what I'm doing....any help is appreciated.

I've only ever made one spellsword oriented character and it was on a PvP server I tried, but it was cheesy as hell and not viable here anyway, but despite that it I came to the realisation that I know so little about making a truly effective one.

But anyway the ending result highly depends on what you want more, do you want more survivability, maybe a slight bit more battle prowess, more APR(?), a nice speed advantage with the sacrifice of better spell durations, slightly better DC's and Caster level advantages, or would you prefer those scarifices to not be missed out on instead of that bit extra of what mentioned at first?

Take note, you may not make much use of IKD, depending on how high your AB will reach!

I'd probably recommend Epic spells: EMA and either Greater Ruin or EMD, or both if they can be fit in without losing another feat that is equally or more useful to you. As for the extra Wiz feat, maybe consider Brew potion/Craft wand. Craft wand being superior in my eyes. as for the extra, nothing comes to mind as to what can fill it at the moment.

For the Epic spells you may have to test offline as to when is best to take them, because you'll have to take certain wizard levels on general epic feat levels to get more than one, likely.

Yeah, sorry if this isn't much help, I've not really tested a spellsword much at all before and I'd be able to help a bit more if I run NWN and tried a few combinations myself, but I don't gots the motivation.

How is the DC for Shadow Daze determined on Amia? Same as normal NWN?

I don't think it was altered as I've never seen anything to indicate that it was, but when I had been playing mine, he had 10 SD and the DC was 32 iirc, if that helps at all.

Tried it out a few times, it's the same formula. DC = 10 + Dex Mod + SD levels. For some reason I had it in my mind that it was changed to Intelligence. XD

Is taking 20 levels of SD and the Epic Shadowlord feat worth it? Is the summon only good in PVM, or is it awesome in PVP too?

Murex wrote:

Is taking 20 levels of SD and the Epic Shadowlord feat worth it? Is the summon only good in PVM, or is it awesome in PVP too?

I'm building one right now but he's only 5th level. Give me a few months and I will let you know. Or come along and find out! It's looking pretty nice with 50% immunity to slash and bludgeon plus all the usual immunities and a DC 42 claw drain.

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