AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

It's a feat that gives +1AB/AC and +2 to every skill and -2 to enemy skills. Good feat. Besides, you end up with skill focus feats to burn on a Bard30; their epic list is a bit limited once you've Lasting Won.

Uberuce wrote:

It's a feat that gives +1AB/AC and +2 to every skill and -2 to enemy skills. Good feat. Besides, you end up with skill focus feats to burn on a Bard30; their epic list is a bit limited once you've Lasting Won.

I suppose. But by just taking five less bard you open up to so fucking many mythal slots, reduces the preform required, and let's you multi class like a boss.
I dunno man..

I still think 25/something bard is the win.

30 bard require 100 preform
25 bard 75

25 preform is 5 mythal slots (or 3 if you have epic skill focus)

You trade 1ac/5 skills for 3-5 mythal slots. You do not get any more ab

>_>

Gear-swapping.

Uerk. That's the worst - I want to be ready to hunt and kill all the time. Even when i sleep Gear-swapping is bleh

Swapping on those +30 Perform gloves and a belt or something every ten minutes is not that big of a deal. Granted, it does mean that your Curse song won't be at full effectiveness unless you intend to swap at every spawn, but you don't need that anyway. In PvP you have to swap shit anyway. As a bard your active spell selection is relatively small, anyway, so you should have the quickslots to spare.

Once you find the +30 Discipline gloves you will never go back to using another set of gloves. They are simply -The- best.

Ruce has Epic Discipline and +19 from his song, so he's on low 70's without a single piece of gear. His Epic Minstrels pretty much stay on all the time.

Compelling argument... :shock:

That's not to say he's a allrounder PvP build - bad saves; DPS too low to finish most fights; not viable without more buffing than the 2 hours, 2 rounds rule allows.

What he's good for is faction v faction PvP. Once he's sung and Cursed, his duty is done and the real killers can get to work.

So, here I am... eating a bagel, thinking of making a Blackguard. But having no idea what's the best approach for it.

In the past on other servers/mods I've done Paladins were I've gone full blown Charisma based for all the happy, goody Smiting and Divine Shielding and all that palaver. Would it be best to function with a Blackguard going in much the same route, or is a Strength base the better way to go?

Also, just how reliable and good would the best form of Epic Fiendish Servant be in terms of dealing with stuff on the server?

Like I said, I really don't have a clue. Just interested to play one, but don't want to be a character who would routinely have his evil arse handed to him.

Cheers m'dears.

So, here I am... eating a bagel, thinking of making a Blackguard. But having no idea what's the best approach for it.

In the past on other servers/mods I've done Paladins were I've gone full blown Charisma based for all the happy, goody Smiting and Divine Shielding and all that palaver. Would it be best to function with a Blackguard going in much the same route, or is a Strength base the better way to go?

Also, just how reliable and good would the best form of Epic Fiendish Servant be in terms of dealing with stuff on the server?

Like I said, I really don't have a clue. Just interested to play one, but don't want to be a character who would routinely have his evil arse handed to him.

Cheers m'dears.

Noooo no no. No. Cha blackguards are godawful sad puppies. It can be made, but it will not be good. Save yourself.

Str blackguards are nice, not as good as paladins but still nice. Dex BGs are where it's at. I used to balk because it's a heavy armour-compatible sort of class, but when you look at the numbers dex BGs are capable of absolute brutality. The build is something like Rogue-heavy/BG16/someFighter, though the exact ratio escapes me.

Epic Fiendish Servant is the thing to shoot for AFAIK, so go for it.

Hey, look. It's a 25 Bard/5 KC! Momma, Poppa? Did I do it right?

Bard(25), Knight Commander(5), Human

STR: 13 (18)
DEX: 11
CON: 12
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 16 (18)

01: Bard(1): Skill Focus: Discipline, Curse Song
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus
04: Bard(4): CHA+1, (CHA=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Bard(6): Extend Spell
07: Bard(7)
08: Bard(8): CHA+1, (CHA=18)
09: Bard(9): Toughness
10: Bard(10)
11: Bard(11)
12: Knight Commander(1): STR+1, Improved Critical, (STR=14)
13: Knight Commander(2)
14: Knight Commander(3)
15: Knight Commander(4): Maximize Spell
16: Bard(12): STR+1, (STR=15)
17: Bard(13)
18: Bard(14): Blind Fight
19: Bard(15)
20: Bard(16): STR+1, (STR=16)
21: Bard(17): Epic Weapon Focus
22: Bard(18)
23: Bard(19)
24: Bard(20): STR+1, Lasting Inspiration, (STR=17)
25: Knight Commander(5)
26: Bard(21)
27: Bard(22): Armor Skin
28: Bard(23): STR+1, Epic Skill Focus: Perform, (STR=18)
29: Bard(24)
30: Bard(25): Epic Fortitude

Concentration 33(34), Discipline 33(40), Lore 4(31), Perform 33(47), Persuade 4(8), Spellcraft 28(30), Taunt 33(37), Tumble 30(30), UMD 21(25), remaining skillpoints 2

The stats threw me for a loop. Should I go more DEX? I dunno.

How do you even gear a bard, armor that is? Cloth? Padded? Leather? I hate ASF.

serbiris wrote:

The build is something like Rogue-heavy/BG16/someFighter

Rogue13/BG16/1 Fighter or Ranger? You probably want to grab epic dodge. I'm not sure how well charisma fits there, though. Maybe there's one with less rogue and more fighter (and feats) that doesn't even aim for epic dodge, but that doesn't sound as tempting.

Naivatkal wrote:

How do you even gear a bard, armor that is? Cloth? Padded? Leather? I hate ASF.

You can get a chainmail (some other options too if I recall) and a large shield without ASF in the module.

And speaking from experience, I don't recommend a dex bard. I might be biased because I had to level mine alone (in the UD).

Since i can't be arsed to prod about 146 pages of this threat, is there any decent strong HP damage soak type characters? Dwarf if possible

Some kind of a DwD/Pale Master/Bard might work. The problem with damage reduction is that sneaks, crits and other high damage attacks are going to cut you up since the reduction is flat rather than percentage. So getting the Sneak and Crit immunity from PM is pretty useful. That is a very specific character concept it locks you into, of course.

^Great build in 40. In 30, not so much. Max con wizard/PM/KC with EDR III and epic warding is a better option. Why KC? It gets you DI on top of your DR and with something like this, you'll be walking around with damage sheaths and missile storm wands.

BornToKill wrote:

^Great build in 40. In 30, not so much. Max con wizard/PM/KC with EDR III and epic warding is a better option. Why KC? It gets you DI on top of your DR and with something like this, you'll be walking around with damage sheaths and missile storm wands.

Interesting concept...

Are there less.... magic-y ones though?

Slap pale master on top of anything melee with dev crit, basically. There's also Bard/AA/PM, but that's something that's best reserved for kieransaleean drow...

Specifically for dwarves, though, non-evil ones that is, you may want to forget about pale master and go FTR/DD/WM. Both classes synergise nicely, and you can nearly max out DD while maintaining obscene crits. It's easy enough to pump your con to 22 as well for EDR.

What would make a good rogue/assassin build?

Bear in mind my character has one arm, so weapon type is the most important, thinking Shortswords or maces but the daggers are calling me

Since you're not taking dual-wield feats, how about 5Rogue/6SD/19Assassin?
3Rogue/8Fighter/19Assassin is a nifty alternative without HiPS.

Poorsod wrote:

Since you're not taking dual-wield feats, how about 5Rogue/6SD/19Assassin?
3Rogue/8Fighter/19Assassin is a nifty alternative without HiPS.

Nice! something to think about!

yeah i've hindered myself with only one arm, but I like the challenge

Thanks!

Damn i wanted a one armed person xD. guess someone beat me to it.

kalcibone wrote:

Since i can't be arsed to prod about 146 pages of this threat, is there any decent strong HP damage soak type characters? Dwarf if possible

If you use the search button at the bottom of the page, it'll return results within this thread only.

Emerald Dawn wrote:

I was thinking about making a Druid, what are must feats a druid should have?

Weapon finesse, improved expertise, IKD, WF unarmed, improved unarmed strike, stunning fist.

Dragon Shape.

Screw spell foci, beyond conjuration.

PS my druid does fantastic without Dragonshape. So... yeah.

Extend Spell, Maximize Spell (why would you not take this?), Mummy Dust, Armor Skin. Plenty of room for more.

My druid has: SF: Conjuration, GSF: Conjuration, Extend Spell, SF: Evocation, Maximize Spell, Craft Wand, Silent Spell, Skill Focus: Spot, Mummy Dust, Greater Ruin, ESF: Conjuration, Armor Skin, GSF: Evocation, Epic Fortitude, ESF: Evocation.

It's nice, but it's not essential. Druid does well either with full caster as you detailed, or the melee options I did. Both work, but it really depends on where you want to take your character concept. A druid of Nobanion, for example, plays different than a Silvanite.

Uberuce wrote:

kalcibone wrote:

Since i can't be arsed to prod about 146 pages of this threat, is there any decent strong HP damage soak type characters? Dwarf if possible

If you use the search button at the bottom of the page, it'll return results within this thread only.

HOLY SHIT?!?!? I HAVE BEEN HERE 8 YEARS AND I HAD NO IDEA

Extend spell is very handy for druids for Blood frenzy alone.

• CL 1 – 9 : +1 Attack Bonus, -1 penalty to AC
• CL 10 – 14 : +2 Attack Bonus, +1 Regeneration, -1 penalty to AC
• CL 15 – 19 : +3 Attack Bonus, +1 Regeneration
• CL 20 – 24 : +4 Attack Bonus, +1 Regeneration, +1 Damage Bonus
• CL 25 – 29 : +5 Attack Bonus, +2 Regeneration, +2 Damage Bonus
• CL 30 : +6 Attack Bonus, +2 Regeneration, +3 Damage Bonus, +1 to Universal Saving Throws

50 rounds instead of 25 with those hefty bonusses in dragon shape for a cl 25+ druid? Yes please.

Why weapon finesse though if you want to focus on dragonform? I think the dragon has more strenght then dexterity so isn't that a wasted feat?

BornToKill wrote:

It's nice, but it's not essential. Druid does well either with full caster as you detailed, or the melee options I did. Both work, but it really depends on where you want to take your character concept. A druid of Nobanion, for example, plays different than a Silvanite.

The question was for 'must have' feats, so you made it sound like Dragonshape is must have.

And from what I recall, melee druids are crap anyways.

Naivatkal wrote:

BornToKill wrote:

It's nice, but it's not essential. Druid does well either with full caster as you detailed, or the melee options I did. Both work, but it really depends on where you want to take your character concept. A druid of Nobanion, for example, plays different than a Silvanite.

The question was for 'must have' feats, so you made it sound like Dragonshape is must have.

And from what I recall, melee druids are crap anyways.

Sadly they are. Dragonshape is A: To big. B: to weak. C: lore-inaccurate. (Good druids turning into evil dragons?)

If you want to go melee with a druid you, sadly, should roll a Cleric and pick druid domains :cry:

Naivatkal wrote:

BornToKill wrote:

It's nice, but it's not essential. Druid does well either with full caster as you detailed, or the melee options I did. Both work, but it really depends on where you want to take your character concept. A druid of Nobanion, for example, plays different than a Silvanite.

The question was for 'must have' feats, so you made it sound like Dragonshape is must have.

And from what I recall, melee druids are crap anyways.

For about the first 10 levels, on servers that police the "no metal" restriction? Yes.

My Druid was a caster with Epic Evocation and a burly Sunburst DC until level 30, when he got Dragonshape and became a burly meleer. Nothing fancy - I'd rate him as maybe 7/10, most of which was Sneak Immunity and the great big HP, but he was a defacto epic party by the time he'd summoned, companioned and sometimes manticored.

When he was in an actual party, he reverted to caster mode. The main function of Dragonshape is that is allows you to tank so your squishy/stupid buddies stay alive and provide the DPS, but when other players can do that, I found the aforementioned Sunburst more useful.

Just checking..
..if one goes for Epic Dodge / Lasting Inspiration SD/Bard, he must go 17 Bard, 10 SD, 3 Bard in order to get the feats, and end the build with a bard level?

Uberuce wrote:

]If you use the search button at the bottom of the page, it'll return results within this thread only.

Also you are my new favorite person.

Ah, of course, you need to have SD10 land on a feat level, hence 17/3. The only option that preserves AB is tragically Bard12/SD8, which will be bloody annoying to level until 26.

The lack of DPS on my Bard23/SD6/Ranger1 was vexatious.

I think you should be able to go 16bard/10SD/4bard, because epic dodge is a general feat, so as long as you get the SD10 before 27 for the pre-req's you should be able to take it on a bard level (and they get tumble to meet the tumble 30 pre-req). It would need a great dex feat, or a +dex race though, to get 25 dex before 28. Since that build doesn't get winspiration until level 30 anyways, you could put SD8 pre-epic, to get HiPS early and still retain the full 3/4 BAB, giving you something like 12bard/10SD/8bard.

Unless I'm missing something?

I think Uce just mooed up at the wrong tree. Bard also has Reflex and Will as primary saves compared to Shadowdancer's only Reflex.

Dur. I did indeed make an arse of that.

As there's been a discussion out there about double bladed weapon, thought i'd share a build i have been wanting to play but will never get around to, based rarely used weapon:

The Dire Mace swinging Paladin! (The destroyer of skeletons!)

Race Aasimar (human)
Gender unknown

Starting points:

Str: 15 (all points leveling here, end str 22) dex:15 con: 8 wis: 12 (14) int: 14 charisma: 12 (14)

Classes: 20 paladin, 8 fighter, 1 rogue or 1 monk if you dont care about umd and want evasion (and go for that kind of rp) all fighter levels should be taken pre epic unless you go for ews.

Pre epic feats: wf, blindfight, ambidex, twf, itwf, power attack, divine might, divine shield, expertise, iexpertise, disarm, idisarm, exotic weapons. (Disarm feats or expertise could be swapped for epic weapon speciality if you want more damage)

Epic feats: epic weapon focus, natural armour, prowess

Skills: discipline, taunt, tumble, umd and if you dont want max umd you can put the rest in concentration or heal or cross skill spellcraft for an extra save or two.

End stats:

Ab= 24+13+3+1 + 5 (gmw)= 46 (44 dual wielding) With further self buffs, bless, divine favour, aid= 44+ 5 + 2= 51. Slap taunt on the enemy= 51 + 6 = 57 than you can be creative and add more buffs wih prayer, war cry etc. While using idisarm against a taunted enemy with tiny weapons you can count your ab as 61.

Ac: 10+9+6+2+17 (only boots are +5, the rest +4) = 44 base with items. With ds=44+8= 52. With iexpertise still sitting at 47 ab against taunted enemies= 52 + 10 = 62, add haste 66, mage armour 67 and get fansy wih all +5 items=70 ac. 71 with ioun stone.

End hp= 257 without buffs but can be buffed to 437 with con items and potion.
Damage will be really nice using dm and divine favour which also adds to your off hand attacks, even more so if you get ews instead of disarm.

Saves are pretty alright as well as you are a paladin and everything (duh)

Thought of this build first as a real undead destroyer, using dire mace because of bludgeoning damage and you cant crit undead either way so it doesnt matter that its just x2 multiplier and you can feel better about dropping improved critical. You can also slap holy weapon on the dire mace for even more delicious undead killing mayhem.

Other weaknesses: will be really easy to dispell thanks to only 20 paladin lvls.

Well, that's my idea of a str dire mace build at its current condition! Go ahead and use it if anyone feels like it.

So, would a 24 Pally/6 Monk qstaff build work?

Naivatkal wrote:

So, would a 24 Pally/6 Monk qstaff build work?

23/6 and you Could just build it like mine but drop disarm feats and itwf, which is what 8 ftr level covers. Instead you get an extra epic feat which you could also use to add to str.

Could even remove some dex for more str if you want or Could keep dex at 14 and add 2 con as you need dex for ac using clothes or robe. Getting 16 starting str though will give you an extra ab with the extra epic feat picking epic strength.

You'd be looking at 6 more ac than my build, that's if you can boost str and dex and wisdom(youd only need 8 extra wisdom though thanks to the nerf) and charisma to the cap.

Remember you cant use any armour if you want the extra attacks.

This is just me thinking around it rather quickly, you could probably make an even better paladin quarterstaffer.

Edit: you'd also have one more ab if you get 16 str and 8 apr instead of my builds 6, 9 with haste. So it would be a cool build if you pull off boosting all the ability scores to the roof. Wisdom and charisma is easy though as you have those charisma stacking paladin spells and that druid wisdom-spell scroll, which will give you 7 wisdom. So the str and dex and you will also want more con because the hp sucks otherwise with this build. (Nvm, cant use the scroll without umd haha. Im gonna stop editing this post now!)

Edit2(because im waiting for the cleaners to finish the bathrooms here anyhow): use my template and also remove 2 int and add to charisma. Starting stats are now, being aasimar, str 16, dex 14, int 12 (dont need expertise and disarm, flurry of blows and expertise doesnt work at the same time anyhow) con 8, wis 12 (14), charisma 14(16).

Instead of improved expertise can get toughness and improved critical (or skill focus, save feat, doesnt matter) you will still have enough skill points to max discipline, taunt and tumble with 12 int.

Or keeping 14 int you could also get improved disarm instead of expertise as well as listen/concentration/heal or cross skill spellcraft. Can do this build in a lot of different variations and still work.

Naivatkal wrote:

So, would a 24 Pally/6 Monk qstaff build work?

Don't know much about either class, but I'm curious how one would manage all the stats?

It needs STR for hittiness (and more STR because 2hander can use the damage), WIS 14 for spellcasting, DEX or more WIS for AC, CHA for fun stuff, CON never hurt, INT 14 to get at least some useful skills ... Makes me wonder whether CHA-based and DivineX is worth it compared to lots of STR. On the other hand, not picking up DivineX would likely be stupid ... But maybe just at CHA 14?

Regards
Ts

For my basic Human 'staffer, who was a Rogue16/Ftr8/Monk6 Sneak-whoring Devcritter, I went:

STR 26(18 at start, Great STR I)
DEX 14
CON 10
WIS 12
INT 10
CHA 8

That just popped his AC over 50, so not a disaster, but terribly low compared to most Pallies. I'd be inclined to give up on Devcrit and go for a split STR/CHA flat damager model.

STR 14 -> 18 or 20(one Great STR)
DEX 14
CON 12
WIS 14
INT 10
CHA 14 ->18 or 16

I would take the trade of 1AB for the saves boost and and go Pally16/Monk4. I'd be interested to see whether it would be easier to level that as a fullplate sword'n'board Pally until you pass the item requirements for the +4 stat gear, at which point you'd start touching cloth.

I'd go 18/18 just because it annoys me so much to have an odd STR modifier on a twohander. 24 base AB, 10 mod, 3 EWF, 3 BPA, 5 DF, +5GMW = 50AB.

18 base AC, 17 from usual+4's and Sunsouls, +8DEX, +1Monk, +6WISMonk(capped) = 50, then Haste and Divine Shield for 65.

The sheer rate of attacks meant Adam was a perfectly fine DPS chap even without Sneaks. I would tentatively suggest this build will do 'just about alright' in the Manor.

Make it a zen archery monk/paladin with shurikenz(I think you can flurry those right?)

No, flurry-ing shuriken didn't stay.

Casvenx wrote:

No, flurry-ing shuriken didn't stay.

Yeah it was buggy and creating massive lag I believe.

Uberuce wrote:

Dat help

So I came up with this:

Paladin(24), Monk(6), Human

STR: 14 (18)
DEX: 14
CON: 10
WIS: 14
INT: 10
CHA: 15 (18)

01: Paladin(1): Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff
03: Paladin(3): Divine Shield
06: Paladin(6): Divine Might
09: Paladin(9): Improved Critical: Quarterstaff
12: Paladin(12): Extend Spell
15: Paladin(15): Blind Fight
17: Monk(1)
18: Monk(2): Great Fortitude
21: Paladin(17): Epic Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff
24: Paladin(19): Armor Skin
27: Monk(6): Epic Reflexes
29: Paladin(23): Epic Prowess
30: Paladin(24): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline

Discipline 33(47), Taunt 33(37), Tumble 30(32), remaining skillpoints 15

More or less what you were thinking?

Saves are pretty nasty (I swapped Lightning Reflexes for Great Fort on this because Monk make the saves retarded awesome; I guess Iron Will could even be taken for kicks), as is HP:
Hitpoints: 288
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 25/20/24

AC is 65 like you said.
AB calcs to 24 (base) + 10 (STR) + 4 (feats) + 5 (GMW) = 43 + 1 (Bless) + 1 (Aid) + 5 (Divine Favor) = 50 AB (51 with Prayer)

Wow.

Maybe Extra turning, since it will be a very prominent feat he is using, and because of the lack of AC? I think he has enough fortitude as it is

He should also go 20 Paladin pre-epic as to not loose out on 1 AB.
And you should also swap epic reflexes with Great CHA 1 maybe so you can start with 14 CHA instead of 15, and put 2 points into CON.

Otherwise it looks really fun to play!

Well the Pally I have now (24/4 Fighter/2 Rogue) has Lightning and Epic Reflexes and his saves are 21/17/20 though he gets another +6 from maxed CHA. Mosh helped me with that one, so I'd say that's about average. With the 4 Monk before 20 you see how much that jacked up the saves. I suppose, though, 25/20/24 is more of an all-rounder and 29/20/20 would be perfectly fine as well :mrgreen:

Extra Turning isn't a bad idea, I've never taken it before though.

I really only take extra turning because it makes the time between resting longer. It's not required per se but makes playing it a little less frustrating. So if you are 50+ and have a high cholesterol the extra turning may be something for you, least you burst an artery

How many more saves did you get from 4 Monk pre-epic you said? I can't see ...

Last edited by Naivatkal on Sat, May 31 2014, 22:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Same build, 24 Pally/6 Monk:

16/4 pre-epic: 25/20/24

20 Pally pre-epic: 23/17/21

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