AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Oh. So one actually get less saves AND ab by going 4 monk pre-epic. Wow.

Damnit I switched them. The higher saves is 16/4 lol

Good thing to remember though is that you get an extra apr if you go full bab class to 20 and then multiclassing to a monk. So it's not just 1 ab you lose going 16/4 pre epic, It's a whole attack per round.

What are some good builds for a Spellsword?

I'm looking for a good balance between offense and defense- decent AB with above average AC maybe. I've never really used Tenser's Transformation, but it looks like it can add good AB with enough caster levels. I'm guessing a 23 Wiz, 5 WM, 2 Fighter Build is typical?

Astro_Black wrote:

Good thing to remember though is that you get an extra apr if you go full bab class to 20 and then multiclassing to a monk. So it's not just 1 ab you lose going 16/4 pre epic, It's a whole attack per round.

What? How do you figure that?

Murex wrote:

What are some good builds for a Spellsword?

I'm looking for a good balance between offense and defense- decent AB with above average AC maybe. I've never really used Tenser's Transformation, but it looks like it can add good AB with enough caster levels. I'm guessing a 23 Wiz, 5 WM, 2 Fighter Build is typical?

You could do that. Typical spellsword build, though, is Wiz/Sorc 24/Fighter 5/Rogue 1 or something like that. 23 CL misses Greater Dispel immunity.

You get them every 4 bab before epic. One at 16 and the next at 20. Couldnt see anything about it on nwn wiki but it was a big thing on the pvp servers i was playing on back in the days i remember lol

Maybe someone can test it out?

No, you cap at 4 APR, at 16. That is why 16/4 is the standard split for Middle BAB/Full BAB multiclassing. (If you sprinkle in some Low BAB levels, you need to compensate, obviously.) Though, as Ruce said earlier, the fourth attack is not that big a deal if you're running a build that doesn't have the AB to hit with it.

(The NWNWiki article you're looking for is called Base attack bonus.)

The 4th attack is still big just because it gets you those two attacks in the first flurry, often against flatfooted opponents. And even on low AB builds, having two attacks with a chance of hitting is better then one (though, mostly, if you're getting 4 attacks you don't have 'low' AB). If it's just moving a few levels around, I'd always go for the 4th attack, just because that first flurry hits more often then is represented purely by the AB.

I think what Astro was thinking of was the extra UBAB you can get from a monk build with a full BAB class complimenting it. But that extra attack happens at 18 BAB, so 16/4 still gets it.

I had not considered the flurry aspect, but doesn't that still work when you're hasted (which I imagine you'll usually be) for four attacks?

I agree, though: if it's just a matter of shuffling the level order and won't cost you important epic feats, caster levels or something else, it's generally not a bad idea. I think it's a little overrated on builds that aren't primarily about DPS, like bards or "melee" druids.

Uh. 16 Pally/4 Monk gets 4 APR. I don't know what you people are thinking >_>

You get 1 APR at Pally 1-5, 2 APR at 6-10, 3 APR at 11-15, and 4 APR at 16 which lets you take whatever you want in 17-20. So yeah you get base 4 APR with a 16/4 split, trust me.

Yes, we know.

WM/KC/rogue dex based. What's the best course of action? 13 rogue/5 kc/12 wm for epic dodge? In what order should I take those classes?

Edit: It would also seem that I cannot get requirements for both KC and WM without spending an epic feat. >.>

You could with the human bonus feat; 12 rogue, 7 wm, 1 kc pre-epic.

I must take weapon finesse if I'm going dex build, and that's 1 more feat. :/
6 feats for WM requirement, 2 feats for KC requirement + weapon finesse.

Also, what's his ac/ab/apr going to be? I have no way of testing KC, nor did I ever play one.

LOL, looks like my build's spread...

You'll have to spend an epic feat.

Yeah there's way too many feats for WM and KC to be taken with Rogue, unless you are going to sacrifice epic feats (lel) for some of the requirements. Sadly, it's not going to be worth it. You're going to take at least 1 class requirement in epic, and if you want Blind Fight (why wouldn't you?) then you will have to spend another. Epic Dodge eats up another leaving you with one feat which you need for Great Dexterity to get 26 DEX. I mean, you could give up Blind Fight for EWF or Armor Skin but eh.

Then there's the ability points. You want a +5 buffed CHA mod in order to get the full benefit from KC which menas you -can- go with 8 CHA because then you can buff it to 20 which is a +5 mod but then you'd need CHA gear up the ass along with DEX/STR/CON. Basically it comes out to:
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (26)
CON: 10
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8

AB-wise you come out to 21 base + 14 DEX mod + 1 WF (another +2 if you take EWF) + 4 weapon = 40 AB + 3 for bless/aid/divine favor = 43 (45 max)
AC is the same as any other rogue ED build (minus not having Armor Skin), I'd say 48 AC or so.
Saves are also abysmal, rocking a whole 11 or so Fort so Dev Crit is going to destroy you when they land a hit.

In my opinion, it's possible for sure but it's not going to be super effective, sadly, because I like the concept itself. I could be wrong, though.

Why STR and not CON?
I might drop the WM I guess. KC and Rogue are essential classes of the character concept I have in mind. Weapon Master would've been cool, but since the requirements are way too high for a rogue.. I might go with a fighter instead.

Edit: Also in case I go with Fighter, in what order should I take it?

If you're going for Nightsong Agent or Enforcer, a dip in shadowdancer may be an option as well. A lot of those guys HIPS. Alternatively, Master Scout may aid the concept well.

Dead wrote:

Why STR and not CON?
I might drop the WM I guess. KC and Rogue are essential classes of the character concept I have in mind. Weapon Master would've been cool, but since the requirements are way too high for a rogue.. I might go with a fighter instead.

Edit: Also in case I go with Fighter, in what order should I take it?

Not sure where you're going with this, but also be aware that aura's do not take effect unless the person is visible. At least, that's been the case previously, though I'm not sure 100% on the KC ones (the situation I am recalling particularly is an SD with terrifying rage aura). Just pointing out that KC and rogue do not dovetail all that well, mechanically. Without HiPS, at least the defensive ones should apply, as long as you don't accidentally corner sneak your party.

If you go the fighter route, I'd put as many fighter levels in epic levels as possible, for the additional epic feats, and the fact that more of those have higher pre-req's in terms of levels or skills, and leave just a skill dump level in rogue late in the build. Maybe 16 rogue, 5 KC, 8 fighter, 1 rogue. Nets you two rogue feats (getting you epic dodge on that last rogue level as a general epic feat), the KC stuff doesn't rely on character level, only KC level, so it's effectively more useful early on, and the 8 fighter in epic levels gets you 9 feats to put towards epic feats.

KC works if you're visible or not. It's why snagging KC to emulate nightsong enforcer works rather well in my case. Rogue in general is super versatile, and will be a powerbuild no matter how you build it, so in the end, it really depends on what fluff you'r going for, if class X is viable or not. Tell me that and I can probably tell you exactly how to fit it in.

I have done my best to research, but I cannot find a good example build anywhere for a level 30 Monk/Assassin. The only examples I've seen are for Level 40 builds.

I'm hoping to create a deadly assassin who is fast and uses hand-to-hand combat. I like the look of the Assassin's Tools widget and want to be sure the build is perfect for using them. It says that the DC for the many different types of special strikes is: 10 + Assassin level + Intelligence modifier. So I'd like to take that DC into account when making this build.

Would epic level assassin be prudent to make good use of the DC for special strikes? Or should epic level monk still work for a build?

I'd love some PM one-on-one advice on this if someone is willing. I'd like some help coming up with the specifics, ability scores, skills, etc, that would make a perfect Monk/Assassin build.

Casvenx wrote:

Not sure where you're going with this..

I'm going for a RP build actually, but I still do want to make it viable. Not all rogues are sneaks. So 8 ftr/16 rgue/5 kc would be better in your opinion than 12/13/5 ?

Trying out a spellsword build. Just want suggestions on improving it.

Wizard 23, Weapon Master 7

STR: 17 (+2 racial bonus) [22]
DEX: 13
CON: 10?
WIS: 8
INT: 16 [20]
CHA: 8

Race: Earth Genasi [Full Plate with Scimitar and Tower Shield]

Skills-

1(). +2 Dodge, Mobility
2().
3(). +1 Expertise
4(). +1 INT
5(). (+1 WIZ: Maximize Spell)
6(). +1 Martial Weapons
7().
8(). +1 INT
9(). +1 Spring Attack
10(). (+1 WIZ: Spell Focus: Necromancy)
11().
12(). +1 Weapon Focus: Scimitar +1 INT
13().
14().
15(). +1 Shields (+1 WIZ: Still Spell)
16(). +1 INT
17().
18(). +1 Whirlwind Attack
19().
20(W20). +1 STR (+1 WIZ: Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy)
21(WM1). +1 Armor Skin
22(WM2).
23(WM3).
24(W21). +1 Epic Mummy Dust +1 STR
25(WM4).
26(WM5).
27(W22). +1 Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy
28(W23). (+1 WIZ: Epic Mage Armor) +1 STR
29(WM6).
30(WM7). +1 Heavy Armor

dimension_w wrote:

I'm hoping to create a deadly assassin who is fast and uses hand-to-hand combat. I like the look of the Assassin's Tools widget and want to be sure the build is perfect for using them. It says that the DC for the many different types of special strikes is: 10 + Assassin level + Intelligence modifier. So I'd like to take that DC into account when making this build.

Would epic level assassin be prudent to make good use of the DC for special strikes? Or should epic level monk still work for a build?

Basically you need to reach about 40 (more is better) with the DC because it's a fortitude save (at least the death thing).

Since INT is probably only good for skills on such a build, you would probably need all the Assassin levels you can get. For example, with base INT 18, 30 fullly buffed, you get +10 from it. That still requires the full Assassin 20 to get a good DC. More INT is possible, but it will very likely reduce your other important ability DEX until it's not so great anymore ...

Regards
Ts

Dead wrote:

Casvenx wrote:

Not sure where you're going with this..

I'm going for a RP build actually, but I still do want to make it viable. Not all rogues are sneaks. So 8 ftr/16 rgue/5 kc would be better in your opinion than 12/13/5 ?

Depends what your angle is. I would go for the 17 rogue/8 fighter/5 kc route myself, but I always go rogue heavy (skills!). More fighter pre-epic might make it easier to level, with the two extra fighter feats, 16 more HP and 1 AB (not to mention weapon spec early on). Those 4 rogue levels get you a third (rather then two like I said before) rogue feat, +2d6 on your sneak attack, and 24 more skill points. Both would probably be about the same overall.

Ts_ wrote:

Since INT is probably only good for skills on such a build, you would probably need all the Assassin levels you can get. For example, with base INT 18, 30 fullly buffed, you get +10 from it. That still requires the full Assassin 20 to get a good DC. More INT is possible, but it will very likely reduce your other important ability DEX until it's not so great anymore ...

Regards
Ts

Thanks Ts, that puts it into perspective a little more now. Any other advice for this build guys? I'm gonna try making it soon, anyone got any suggestions for starting stats?

Murex wrote:

Trying out a spellsword build. Just want suggestions on improving it.

Sorc 24/CoT 6

Tensers is a burst attacker out of gsanc, so you may as well go sorcerer to get a decent duration on another solid AB buff from div wrath and some much needed saves. Added bonus is you'll have enough feats to be a functional caster on top of it. Avoid DC spells, get epic spell penetration and other metamagic instead and when you're not tensering, missile storm til you drop.

BornToKill wrote:

Murex wrote:

Trying out a spellsword build. Just want suggestions on improving it.

Sorc 24/CoT 6

Tensers is a burst attacker out of gsanc, so you may as well go sorcerer to get a decent duration on another solid AB buff from div wrath and some much needed saves. Added bonus is you'll have enough feats to be a functional caster on top of it. Avoid DC spells, get epic spell penetration and other metamagic instead and when you're not tensering, missile storm til you drop.

You can't cast tensers + G'sanct. Both impose 100% spell failure.

Seems like this is the best topic to ask about abilities of summons and familiars. Two simple questions:

1. Which wizard/sorc familiar do you think is the most tanky in epic levels, other than the skeleton?
2. Would Epic Dragon Knight mop the floor against an Epic Mummy Dust? Has anyone tried this in the arena?

Thanks!
Uber.

Murex wrote:

Trying out a spellsword build. Just want suggestions on improving it.

Wizard 23, Weapon Master 7

At a glance, I'd recommend Wizard 23 / Rogue or Fighter 2 / Weapon Master 5
Or one I kind of liked: Wizard 21 / Fighter 4 / WM 5 - You'd drop EMD in this one.

UBER-GEEK'S ULTIMATE SPELLSWORD BUILD

There's been a lot of talk of spellswords in this thread lately, so i thought i'd contribute. I've tried a few different kinds of spellsword builds out, and lots of different mage builds in general, but I believe this is the best one i've come up with. Yes, i'm a bit of a power-builder, but I also like to RP! These are not mutually exclusive things as some people would have you believe!

I've really found that the best spellswords are dual wielders, and it's not at all worth giving that up to go sword-and-board Weapon Master. Six attacks / round rules! Epic Weapon Specialization is almost as efficient as 5 WM levels. I'd rather spend the 3 feats on dual-wielding than the 5 required for WM. Oh, and save some feats for Epic Focus: Abjuration for pete's sake, it's amazing!!!

Here we go:

Air Genasi
Any Alignment

Starting Abilities (after racial modification):
STR 14
DEX 17
CON 12
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 6

1 Wizard Two-Weapon Style, Ambidexterity
2 Wizard
3 Wizard Weapon Finess
4 Wizard
5 Wizard Extend Spells
6 Wizard Toughness
7 Wizard
8 Wizard
9 Wizard Exotic Weapons
10 Wizard Maximize Spells
11 Wizard
12 Wizard Blind Fight
13 Wizard
14 Wizard
15 Wizard Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
16 Wizard
17 Wizard
18 Fighter Weapon Focus: Kukri, Improved Two Weapon Style
19 Fighter Improved Critical: Kukri
20 Fighter
21 Wizard Epic Weapon Focus: Kukri
22 Wizard
23 Wizard Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration
24 Wizard Epic Mage Armor
25 Wizard
26 Wizard Epic Mummy Dust
27 Fighter Weapon Specialization & Epic Weapon Specialization: Kukri (Discipline dump)
28 Rogue (Tumble & Spot skill dumps)
29 Rogue
30 Rogue Armor Skin

Levels 4 & 8: Increase INT
Levels 12, 16, 20, 24, 28: Increase DEX

The build gets quite powerful level 24 onwards
1: AC jumps from 44 to 60 over those last 6 levels
2: Average damage / hit goes from 40 to 55
3: Finally get a good summon at level 26

If you are pretty skilled at playing, you'll find you can solo many epic bosses at level 24, as soon as you get epic mage armor.

The final AC of the build is 60, with dual-wield, 65+ with a shield.
Six attacks / round when hasted, average damage is quite high because of frequent crits. Kukri's are pretty efficient weapons.
With turn/level Globe of Invulnerabilities, extended Spell Mantles, super-charged Energy Buffers, and evasion dealing with offensive magic is easy
With 23 mage levels Greater Dispelling only has a 5% chance of dispelling your buffs
Fifty percent magic immunity is great for dealing with all those frost giants and yaunti with death armor
Not much can hit a 60 AC, but if you need to tank an epic boss, throw on a +4 tower shield for 67 AC
HP are surprisingly high. Maximized bulls/cats/endurance should not be underestimated for melee-based casters. You can expect 450+ HP with Tenser's on.
Tanky summons are probably best, this build is capable of doing 300+ damage / round in melee.

The final AB tops out at 44 with Tenser's on, 46 with sworld-and-shield. I find this to be sufficient for mobs and most epic bosses.

The build does have fairly low saves, which can really only be improved by getting some epic equipment.
The build probably does not fair that well in PvP unless you're mostly buffed already, and they don't disjunction you.

Level progression is pretty smooth and easy in non-epic levels, slowest / toughest levels are probably 20-23, and there is an XP penalty levels 28-30.

It does take some skill to play, in terms of spell selection and timing.

That is all.
-Uber

What's the most regeneration any non-caster build can achieve, through feats, spells on items, equipment, and any other source of regeneration they might have access to?

The best I can think of is 16 barbarian/14 druid, unyielding rage and self-casting extended regenerate over and over, with a full suit of regeneration equipment. But, it sounds like a horrible build, with the exception of the regeneration.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

At a glance, I'd recommend Wizard 23 / Rogue or Fighter 2 / Weapon Master 5
Or one I kind of liked: Wizard 21 / Fighter 4 / WM 5 - You'd drop EMD in this one.

Yeah, 5 WM levels sounds better. The second build there without EMD is designed for the Fighter/WM levels before the Wizard levels, right? That sounds interesting.

Barb/druid is a classic for a reason, but that's because you only pay 2 levels for uncanny dodge with it and have room for monk afterwards. If you're going for a regenerator, I would point you towards, oh, dwarven defender/CoT, perhaps.

Barbs can take monk levels?

Nope, but alignments can change if you're willing to invest the time. That right there, though, is the usual vanilla, optimal, barb/druid.

Question:

The summon spells tell what creature is summoned, but nothing on -what- these creatures have in the way of abilities. Maybe I just didn't find it or something, but, for instance, at 9th level, is summon critter better than Gate? I've no idea what a Warden Archon is, nevermind what it does.

bidocks wrote:

Question:

The summon spells tell what creature is summoned, but nothing on -what- these creatures have in the way of abilities. Maybe I just didn't find it or something, but, for instance, at 9th level, is summon critter better than Gate? I've no idea what a Warden Archon is, nevermind what it does.

Gate is rounds/level, Summon X is turns/level. Gate should shred things more quickly, and it also improves in later levels again while Summon X is stuck at essentially level 20.

On the other hand, being available for longer means that it's worth putting more buffs on it, so Summon X has that going for it.

However, I don't know the current Summons in detail to compare them. As long as it's not EMD, you can always try them out, of course.

Regards
Ts

What is the general feeling on Taunt? Useful? Not? I could manage 25 or so by level 30. Would that be a waste?

Very useful on bosses and Caster-players.

Taunt is very useful, depending on the build. 25 base might be okay, depending on if you build any on your equipment. Against something with no investment in Concentration, it should work very well.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt

The more you beat someone's Concentration roll by, the more you get out of it. But in general, when you do, yes it is a useful skill. It essentially adds onto your effective AB against a target.

Quote:

Draconic Armor
This feat gives a maximum of +2 AC, rather than +4. Note that an epic RDD still receives the bonus +1 AC at level 15 and 20, meaning that a level 20 RDD would receive a bonus of +4 AC altogether.

Wiki

When is the Amia modifications kicking in?
Level 1 gives +1AC.
Level 5 gives +2
Level 8 gives +3
Level 10 gives +4

Is it -1 at level 8 and another -1 at level 10?

If you use the Test hak, can you use it with scripts?
How do i get the scripts to work so i can test?

MisterLich wrote:

What's the most regeneration any non-caster build can achieve, through feats, spells on items, equipment, and any other source of regeneration they might have access to?

The best I can think of is 16 barbarian/14 druid, unyielding rage and self-casting extended regenerate over and over, with a full suit of regeneration equipment. But, it sounds like a horrible build, with the exception of the regeneration.

Why is everyone so insane in this thread? >_>

No feats give regen, only spells/items and the KC aura. Also you said non-caster yet you then said barb/druid >_>

Not sure how much regen gear there is, exactly, but if you go by mythalling and the epic gear I know of:

+4 Regen ring x2
+3 KC aura (with 5 KC levels)
+1 armor
+1 shield
+1 cloak
+1 ammy
+3 boots
+2 belt (Belt of the Hard Road)

So that's about 20 regen, which is around the max. But keep in mind that regen is +1 power for every level of regen on the item (So 1 regen is 2 powers, 2 regen is 3 powers, etc).

BornToKill wrote:

Nope, but alignments can change if you're willing to invest the time. That right there, though, is the usual vanilla, optimal, barb/druid.

Pretty sure you can't do that here, you'd have to rebuild. So that would be singleplayer/crappy servers only.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Quote:

Draconic Armor

I am about 95% sure that you get the initial bonuses up to the Amia cap. Same with the STR bonuses.So you get the +1 AC at xDD 1 and 5.

Thanks Naivatkal.

@ MisterLich. I have a Dwarven Defender Build with 19 Regeneration. -It- eats flame-potions and wades into battle with 23/DR.
It's one of the worst builds I have created...

AC is the most important statistic in the game. There is no denying.

Murex wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

At a glance, I'd recommend Wizard 23 / Rogue or Fighter 2 / Weapon Master 5
Or one I kind of liked: Wizard 21 / Fighter 4 / WM 5 - You'd drop EMD in this one.

Yeah, 5 WM levels sounds better. The second build there without EMD is designed for the Fighter/WM levels before the Wizard levels, right? That sounds interesting.

I'd have to look up exactly how I did it. I'm 99% sure I was saving Fighter 4 for epics to get Epic Weapon Specialization. Fair warning: Any places with dispels will piss you off.

Looks like I did Wizard 12 / Fighter 3 / WM 5 pre-epic. It's a bit of a pain to level and is a very late life focused build.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Thanks Naivatkal.

@ MisterLich. I have a Dwarven Defender Build with 19 Regeneration. -It- eats flame-potions and wades into battle with 23/DR.
It's one of the worst builds I have created...

AC is the most important statistic in the game. There is no denying.

Why is it bad? Does it not survive well enough, or something else?

I thought the whole point of going DR/Regen/HP was that the AI prefers to target the lowest AC, and so you can be an effective tank for your party by drawing all the aggro.

I admit my Ftr7/WM5/DwD18 would have been better against mobs if he had any AC, but he was still excellent and against bosses he was up there with the best of them.

PvP? No. Crap at it.

Regarding Taunt, you need:
Versus Casters: enough of it to pass their Concentration, which is full ranks and lotsa gear, so 70/80/90?.
Versus Meleers: the ability to survive a full round of being flatfooted against them.
Versus Bosses: both.

So.. my piddly 25 would not be helpful according to that. Hells, even my plan to get 20 and take ESF in it plus CHA mod won't really cut it, since that gets to about 36-38.

I don't understand why one says it's useful against casters, yet, even I know casters use concentration?

Ok... I'll think of something else.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Taunt

I read how taunt works... I was asking about on our server, its usefulness. In single player, I know its useful, but here? Apparently, people have godlike skills against everything here. Interesting, I've never figured out how to have 80's in discipline, lore, spot, search, concentration and still have tumble dump, UMD, crafting skills and spellcraft at usable levels. Anyway.... thanks for the inputs so far and I will come up with something for my final feat!

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