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Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstick
https://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=80048		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Uberuce [ Tue, Dec 30 2014, 17:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstick
Starting Stats: I've set INT and CHA as definite 14's each, but you can start at 12 CHA and reach 16 in time for level 6 spells by taking more levelups. The rest of them are wiggley, but those are the optimised scores. On base human, it gives you 14's for everything but the 8 WIS.

STR: +6 from base -> +5 via levelups at 4, 8, 20, 24, 28, and a Great STR to even it out in epic.
DEX: +6 from base
CON: +6 from base
WIS: +0 from base
INT: 14
CHA: 14 ->16 via levelups at 12 and 16

Feats:
1(if Human): Knockdown
1: Blindfight
3: Extend Spell
6: Curse Song
9: Knockdown(unless Human, in which case Weapon Prof: Martial or Exotic goes here.)
12: Maximise Spell
15: Weapon Focus
18: Improved Crits

Epic Feats:

21: Great STR I
23b: Lasting Fucking Winspiration, Baby
24: Epic Weapon Focus
26b: Epic Skill Focus: Perform
27: Armourskin
29b: Epic Skill Focus: Listen
30: Epic Fortitude

Skills:
Discipline: 33
Perform: 33
Tumble: 30
Listen: 33
Concentration: 33
UMD: Some
Spellcraft: Some
Disable Trap, Set Trap, Open Lock: 1 rank each
Taunt: Depends if you're Human and can afford it. 33 if so.

It might be apparent that this build works best as plain human. Second best are the non-CHA dropping human subraces, then elf is okay because it gets longsword for free, so losing Martial is no massive drama. It's far from broken if you need to use a Simple weapon and not have full Taunt, but Martial/Exotic damage and the Taunt is nice.

Being a Bard and having the song means you're in great demand from parties, and in such cases you ought to be able to buff everyone(Mass Haste and Song will anyway), but if you do run out of castings, then remember that your DPS is probably not the party's best, so you might want to step aside and let the heavy hitters get the offensive buffs.

Before Lasting Winspiration, you might find that Curse Song is more effective than Bard Song; basically if your party isn't get hit very often but isn't hitting that consistently either, then dropping enemy AC could get you more bang for your buck. Once you have it, you will rarely run out of Curse songs before your buffs fade.

Zero-fail armour is your friend. There's a few sets of it in the lootbins and stores, and taking the hit of 1AC to use a large shield rather than a tower is a pretty trivial price to pay for not having to swap shields. Now that all the armours sum to 9 in base and DEX, there isn't even a penalty for wearing the zero-fail chainshirts, aside from the DEX requirement, but even when it did, 2AC in exchange for free casting is still a good deal when you have Bardic excellent AC to begin with. In any case, this build doesn't get Heavy Armour Prof, and I don't think anything on the feat list is worth losing to get it.

Roleplaying It: (I'm putting this after the technical stuff since this is the opinion part of the build. I believe it's in line with rules and server climate.)

World is your oyster, chum. Bards are more or less the walking definition of 'anything goes' so you can RP it any which way, including loose. The only requirement here is that the low-WIS makes you more curious than cautious, but if that's not your toon's plan then just trim off two CON and make it evens.
Author:  Yossarin [ Tue, Jan 20 2015, 19:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Having used this exact build (it is the same from what I recall) once in the past, I can attest that it works and is a lot of fun knocking giants on their asses. Though maybe my version had KD and IKD...
Author:  Dead [ Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Why listen?
Author:  Alaria- [ Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:56 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Dead wrote:
Why listen?


Bards can cast Amplify and Clairvoyance for convenient Listen. You don't have to put it on stuff then!
Author:  Uberuce [ Wed, Jan 21 2015, 19:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
The bigger reason being that they don't get Spot.
Author:  Dead [ Thu, Jan 22 2015, 0:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Yeah but last time I talked about Listen in Fish topic, I was told that Listen is useless more or less.
Author:  Ice [ Thu, Jan 22 2015, 2:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Not useless, but for reasons I can't recall now Spot is just mechanically superior.
Author:  Raua [ Thu, Jan 22 2015, 2:41 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Im pretty sure this is why?

The NWNWiki on Spot wrote:
Additional modifiers
+10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
Area spot check modifiers.
+5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
+5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
-10 DC at night if the target has a light on them.


The NWNWiki on Listen wrote:
Additional modifiers
+10 DC if the listener is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the listener is standing still.
+1 DC for every 3 meters between listener and target.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
+5 DC for every 40cm of object (including creatures) between listener and target in outdoor areas.
+2 DC in indoor areas if the line of sight is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles.
Author:  Opustus [ Thu, Jan 22 2015, 21:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
The additional modifiers aren't quite as impactful as the fact that you can't target listened objects (listened objects?) with other than AoE damage.
Author:  Silkelock [ Thu, Jan 22 2015, 21:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
This is a Yardstick build and a decent one :)
Hence no spot.
Author:  Uberuce [ Sun, Jan 25 2015, 13:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
The problems with Listen:

- You have to enter Detect Mode in the same round as the SD goes into stealth, or else they will disappear until the end of the next one regardless of the skill scores. With Spot it rolls versus Hide automagically at the point of HiPSing, so if you are an eagle-eyed person and they are 20-odd points below you, they'll blink out momentarily, which still flatfoots you, but they can be reacquired instantly. If you put yourself into Detect Mode in that round, and beat their Move Silent, then you are equal there. The HiPSing bone wraiths in Maxi's barrows are brilliant practice for this. I don't know what happens with elven Listeners.

- They qualify for Sneak Attacks in the first flurry even when detected and targetted by you. That doesn't matter so much for this build since it's generally ~20 points of AC higher than an SD's AB, but it's going to sting if they roll 20's.

- You can't target spells at them. Ranged and melee attacks are fine, so for this build it's not a problem - you have no effective targetted spells anyway and you're going to beat them by a darn good thrashing, assuming you're buffed.

What's great about Listen is that it doesn't care about Line of Sight, which makes eavesdropping on a Listener almost impossible - if you are close enough to hear them speak, let alone whisper, you are close enough to be detected. Cornersneaking is likewise much harder.
Author:  Yossarin [ Sun, Jan 25 2015, 13:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
What is a Yardstick build?
Author:  HorkTheOrk [ Sun, Jan 25 2015, 14:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Quote:
What does it mean to create a "yardstick" build?

:!: A yardstick is a definitive standard. Yardstick builds (the term is used more often in CRPGs than in RPGs but it's as valid a concept there) are considered definitive standard builds for a given character class/type. For example, "here's a yardstick build for a two-weapon fighting rogue." Also known as a reference build, prototypical build, or canonical build.
These are differentiated from many multi-class kinds of builds because though they are somewhat optimized for their roles they are generally not completely min-maxed out, and are generally single-class.
Author:  Yossarin [ Sun, Jan 25 2015, 14:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
I guess that means "the build other builds are measured against", either for comparison or contrast.
Author:  Shadowfiend [ Mon, Jan 26 2015, 8:53 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Yossarin wrote:
I guess that means "the build other builds are measured against", either for comparison or contrast.
it's the base way to build a specific class, without too many lvls in other classes, for instance ranger 25 fighter 4 rogue 1
Author:  Yossarin [ Tue, Jan 27 2015, 13:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Ah, I get it. Thanks for the clarification!
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 13:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
I'm curious, what should I sacrifice if I wanted to get more skill points? And would it kill me completely to go halfling? It seems to me that I would suddenly need 18 INT, since I'd lose the +1 skill point from human, so is it even realisticly doable?
Author:  Solvaras [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 19:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
For a halfling to get the same skill points as a human with 14 int, you'd only have to increase your int to 16. Drop two points from dex and either strength or con.
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 19:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Solvaras wrote:
For a halfling to get the same skill points as a human with 14 int, you'd only have to increase your int to 16. Drop two points from dex and either strength or con.


Yep, I'm with you that far, but I wanted more skillpoints than this build, and on a hin, so I'd have to aim for 18. :)
Author:  555444333 [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 21:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
So... wizard? :lol:
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 21:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
No no, it definitely has to be a bard. :twisted:
Author:  Solvaras [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 21:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
So your starting stats are looking like 12/10/10/8/18/14, adding charisma at 4 and 8, then the rest strength. You're maxing 8 skills that way, but you're only going to have 180 hit points at 30.
Author:  Dakotaen [ Sat, Feb 28 2015, 23:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
That looks doable, I guess. I don't care much about the PvP strength of it, I just want it to not be a liability if it runs out of songs/spells.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Thu, Mar 12 2015, 18:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
>_> What are the actual starting abilities on this build? I'm not making it but how you listed them offends my OCD lol
Can't really tell what to start at, or anything.
Author:  Lutra [ Thu, Mar 12 2015, 18:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
I love my dexterity based bard.....
Author:  GreatPigeon [ Thu, Mar 12 2015, 19:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Naivatkal wrote:
>_> What are the actual starting abilities on this build? I'm not making it but how you listed them offends my OCD lol
Can't really tell what to start at, or anything.


As long as you have 14 Int and 14 Cha to start and focus in either str or dex you'll be golden.
Author:  Lutra [ Fri, Mar 13 2015, 3:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
If you want to have an extra lvl 6 spell then you might want to go for 18 base charisma instead of 16, but it is not a real factor in this build.
Author:  TheWok [ Fri, Mar 13 2015, 7:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
How does this build fare SolovsBoss?
Author:  Opustus [ Fri, Mar 13 2015, 13:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Quite poorly, I'd imagine. You can greatly improve your chance of success by trapping the boss area versus Maximus, for example. But your damage is just so piddly that the attrition warfare will eventually result in a few nasty crits from the boss and keel you over. Or I dunno, a fully Bard-buffed level 9 summon off a scroll might just do the trick.
Author:  GreatPigeon [ Fri, Mar 13 2015, 14:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
What Opustus said...

Besides if you're a bard without friends you failed hardcore.
Author:  Lutra [ Fri, Mar 13 2015, 17:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
GreatPigeon wrote:
What Opustus said...

Besides if you're a bard without friends you failed hardcore.


LOL true enough.

If you want to solo a epics then you need a full BAB class or more than one. So you are looking for a 21 bard/4fighter/5KC, if you are able to get proper gear then you can go for 25bard/5KC later. Since the lack of evasion you can also add 2 rogue levels to the build. If you hate dispels I can recommend the 24bard/2rogue/4fighter as well.
There is also the standard bard/DC combination which can be pretty strong too.
Author:  Opustus [ Fri, Mar 13 2015, 21:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Melee-capable Bard30; All non-ECL Races; Yardstic
Bard25/Fighter5 is also a solid one and nabs the 25th Bard Song buff, which gives effectively +1 AC and AB for the whole party.

I saw Uce run some bosses with his Bard20/Clerk10, it's a fearsome beast as long as it doesn't run out of holy juice. Besides bossing it's simply worse in every other criteria of Barding.
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