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Question about Shifters
https://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=82474		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  LibrisMortis_666 [ Fri, Jun 12 2015, 12:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Question about Shifters
This is a place I'll be posting any inquiries I have about Shifters. Some may be obvious some may not be. Please feel free to comment if you want to help!

Question 1: Why doesn't elemental damage on Arrows work with ranged-based shifter forms?

Question 2: Why doesn't stats on Bows not work with Ranged-Based shifter forms?

Question 3: Is it smart to take a weapon focus in Shifter form or base myself off Dex / STR (Weapon Finess) or just to have a

weapon with stats at hand and just shift?

Question 4: Can you drink heal potions, Cure critical e.t.c when in the Undead form?
Author:  Naivatkal [ Fri, Jun 12 2015, 12:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
1) I don't think arrows merge, and idk what happens to weapon properties that merge into a ranged shape. I think they merge into the arrows, but idk.

2) No idea, I don't bother with the ranged shapes enough D:

3) Weapon Finesse is a waste unless you are going super high DEX, because any form with more DEX than STR already gets Weapon Finesse so it only helps you in shapes that have a lower DEX than your base DEX stat. You could take a Weapon Focus if you want, but it's usually not worth it because you need to have the WF in the specific weapon a form uses (ie a WF in dagger won't matter in lizardfolk even if you had a dagger merge in), and most of the shapes have WF feats anyways.

4) You can, but nothing will happen :D
Author:  davis114 [ Fri, Jun 12 2015, 12:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Just an FYI, I'll be moving this to the Classes section of the build forum when I get to work.
Author:  LibrisMortis_666 [ Fri, Jun 12 2015, 12:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
davis114 wrote:
Just an FYI, I'll be moving this to the Classes section of the build forum when I get to work.


Sorry I didn't realize there it should've went to the Classes Section.
Author:  davis114 [ Fri, Jun 12 2015, 13:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
No worries! I've seen a boatload of questions about shifters. So I'll leave the main topic open out in the build forum, and just put a link in the Classes sticky.
Author:  joe15552 [ Fri, Jun 12 2015, 16:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
some people helped me with my shifter questions in this thread. Hope it helps.

viewtopic.php?f=143&t=81814
Author:  Solvaras [ Sat, Jun 13 2015, 11:34 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Question 1: Why doesn't elemental damage on Arrows work with ranged-based shifter forms?
Elemental damage, and other added damage (+damage to subraces, extra positive damage) merges funky. As in some does, some doesnt. After a while with your shifter, you'll get a feel for what merges and what doesnt.

Question 2: Why doesn't stats on Bows not work with Ranged-Based shifter forms?
There's an old bug that takes effect if you dont have an item in every slot, shield included. It might be that the bug is kicking in, or the ranged forms already have substantial buffs to their ranged weapons that's overriding the bow that's equipped. I can jump in game and test it with you if you'd like.

Question 3: Is it smart to take a weapon focus in Shifter form or base myself off Dex / STR (Weapon Finess) or just to have a weapon with stats at hand and just shift?
Most forms with a weapon already have the weapon focus feats for that weapon. For the ranged shifts, zen archery DOES work if you're a high wisdom shifter.

Question 4: Can you drink heal potions, Cure critical e.t.c when in the Undead form?
Can you? Yes. Is it smart? No. You'll take damage from the cure line of spells since you're undead.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Jun 13 2015, 14:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Solvaras wrote:
Question 4: Can you drink heal potions, Cure critical e.t.c when in the Undead form?
Can you? Yes. Is it smart? No. You'll take damage from the cure line of spells since you're undead.

Wrong. You may take damage if someone hostile casts a Cure or Heal spell on you (unsure, never tried that) but Cure and Heal pots do not affect you.
Author:  LibrisMortis_666 [ Sat, Jun 13 2015, 15:04 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Naivatkal wrote:
Solvaras wrote:
Question 4: Can you drink heal potions, Cure critical e.t.c when in the Undead form?
Can you? Yes. Is it smart? No. You'll take damage from the cure line of spells since you're undead.

Wrong. You may take damage if someone hostile casts a Cure or Heal spell on you (unsure, never tried that) but Cure and Heal pots do not affect you.


Correct. I've only found that Restoration spells heals you in Undead form, that's it. Otherwise you have to unshift to mend your wounds.
Author:  LibrisMortis_666 [ Wed, Jun 17 2015, 3:22 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Question 1: How come a Epic Kobold form, the form based off stealth and the like, doesn't have RP skills such as Open-Lock, Disable Traps e.t.c?
Author:  Solvaras [ Wed, Jun 17 2015, 11:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Blame bioware for that one. You have to take at least one skill point in the skill you want to use. For example, you can put on the gloves of animal empathy to give yourself +30 animal empathy. However, if you dont have any skill points in the skill, you will not be able to select "animal empathy" to charm a critter. So for your case, you have to put at least one point in open lock and disable trap to be able to use them in those forms. The original NWN forms had bonuses to open lock and set trap. Due to bioware though, you cant set traps while shifted.
Author:  NAUX [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 11:33 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Using this thread for a couple of questions.

I am aware that meta-magic feats no longer work for shifted ability casts (icestorm for rak for example), but do the Auto variants of said meta-magic feats still apply? For example, would it be possible for me to use a shifted ability and have the effect from the Auto-Quicken feat apply to that cast?

Second, do the Spell Penetration and Spell Focus feats still apply to shifted abilities?

Thirdly, do skill bonuses from items stack when merged? I know that only the highest ability bonus given from all items is merged, but I'm not sure about the skills.

How is the Caster Level of a shifter ability spell defined? If I was a 5 Druid, 10 Shifter, 15 Other, would the CL of my shifter be 10, 15 or 30?

Lastly, and a little off topic, but relevant to undead shapes. According to NWN wiki, the spell Negative Energy Burst has the current effect and associated bug. Has the referenced bug been fixed on Amia, does it even effect Undead shapes?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Negative_energy_burst
Code:
All creatures caught in the area of effect take 1d8 points of negative energy damage, +1 per caster level, to a maximum of +20. All creatures caught in the area also lose 1 point of strength per 4 caster levels. Negative energy spells have a reverse effect on undead, healing instead of harming them.

The saving throw is rolled before the creature type is determined. Thus, undead creatures roll an unneeded save, and passing the save oddly grants reduced benefits (half healing). This is probably an oversight.



Thanks.
Author:  Silkelock [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 11:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=934717#p934717
Author:  Solvaras [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 12:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Quote:
I am aware that meta-magic feats no longer work for shifted ability casts (icestorm for rak for example), but do the Auto variants of said meta-magic feats still apply? For example, would it be possible for me to use a shifted ability and have the effect from the Auto-Quicken feat apply to that cast?


I'm not sure if you can meet the per-requisites of auto quicken and still have a shape that would use a druid spell to quicken. Even then, my gut says it wouldnt work, though I'm not sure anyone has tested it.

Quote:
Second, do the Spell Penetration and Spell Focus feats still apply to shifted abilities?


Spell pen does, however usually what happens is if whatever you're fighting has spell resistance it has more than enough to block your shifter spells even with spell pen. Spell focus feats do work, however the forms which sling the most spells already have the spell focus feats on the forms.

Quote:
Thirdly, do skill bonuses from items stack when merged? I know that only the highest ability bonus given from all items is merged, but I'm not sure about the skills.


Nope. However! Your weapon is considered separate from your gear when you shift. Ex: You have +2 str on your armor and +2 str on your weapon. You would get +4 str on your form. Why? When you shift your gear merges into one skin and is applied to your character. Your weapon is separate from that merging. The same goes for skills.

Quote:
How is the Caster Level of a shifter ability spell defined? If I was a 5 Druid, 10 Shifter, 15 Other, would the CL of my shifter be 10, 15 or 30?


10

Quote:
Lastly, and a little off topic, but relevant to undead shapes. According to NWN wiki, the spell Negative Energy Burst has the current effect and associated bug. Has the referenced bug been fixed on Amia, does it even effect Undead shapes?


I've never seen this happen anytime I was in undead shape. Cory might have more info since he has the most experience with undead shape on the server.
Author:  NAUX [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 12:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Thanks Solvaras. To clarify a few things.

Quote:
I'm not sure if you can meet the per-requisites of auto quicken and still have a shape that would use a druid spell to quicken. Even then, my gut says it wouldnt work, though I'm not sure anyone has tested it.


I'm able to meet the requirements of Auto Quicken with 17 levels of Druid as it has the ability to cast 9th level spells.

Negative Energy Burst, provided by Vampire Shape is a level 3 wizard spell, and qualifies for Auto Quicken 1. So, the only question is whether it works whilst shifted.


Quote:
Spell pen does, however usually what happens is if whatever you're fighting has spell resistance it has more than enough to block your shifter spells even with spell pen. Spell focus feats do work, however the forms which sling the most spells already have the spell focus feats on the forms.


Again, using Vampire Shape, the shape does not have Spell focus feats, but does have Spell Penetration. Sadly.


Quote:
Nope. However! Your weapon is considered separate from your gear when you shift. Ex: You have +2 str on your armor and +2 str on your weapon. You would get +4 str on your form. Why? When you shift your gear merges into one skin and is applied to your character. Your weapon is separate from that merging. The same goes for skills.


News to me, glad to hear that there is a little way to drip out a few more skill points and attribute points. Real shame about the Caster Level being only 10.

Unfortunately Sikelock, that thread and the shifter spreadsheet does not answer the questions I raised, at least, if it did, I didn't find find the answers on it when I referenced it before posting this.
Author:  Larsaan [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 12:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Solvaras wrote:
Nope. However! Your weapon is considered separate from your gear when you shift. Ex: You have +2 str on your armor and +2 str on your weapon. You would get +4 str on your form. Why? When you shift your gear merges into one skin and is applied to your character. Your weapon is separate from that merging. The same goes for skills.

Wait, what? Does that mean you could use a weapon like Staff of Deflection or Parrying Dagger to gain extra bonus AC?
Author:  LibrisMortis_666 [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 12:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
All gear merges with your form. If the Staff gives you AC, you got AC. Staff gives you on hit kill, form has it.
Author:  NAUX [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 12:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
If you would dual-wield and shift, would each weapon be counted separately? Technically allowing 3 occurrences where stats are merged?
Author:  Naivatkal [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 13:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
AC merges differently, I believe it all gets converted to deflection AC and only the highest applies which means you have a max AC bonus of +5 from armor; however you get +4 deflection AC from shifter 14-17 and +5 at 18-20 so it's a moot point.
Author:  Solvaras [ Tue, Sep 29 2015, 22:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Quote:
I'm able to meet the requirements of Auto Quicken with 17 levels of Druid as it has the ability to cast 9th level spells.


Right, but now you have auto quicken for "druid" spells. Not wizard. NWN is usually specific when it comes to either arcane spells or divine.
Author:  Ts_ [ Wed, Sep 30 2015, 6:25 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Nwnwiki mentions no such restriction on Autoquicken and I've never heard of it either. Metamagic feats work for all your caster classes, too.
Author:  NAUX [ Wed, Sep 30 2015, 6:52 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Yeah, it should apply to all schools of magic I believe. Just need to find out if the shifter ability works with the Auto Quicken. I'll try tonight in my own module unless someone can beat me to it.
Author:  Nalkanar [ Wed, Sep 30 2015, 9:12 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Does spell resistance from subraces work while shifted?
Author:  NAUX [ Wed, Sep 30 2015, 10:06 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Yes it does.
Author:  Solvaras [ Wed, Sep 30 2015, 11:49 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Ts_ wrote:
Nwnwiki mentions no such restriction on Autoquicken and I've never heard of it either. Metamagic feats work for all your caster classes, too.


Right, that's why I quantified it with "I dont know". Metamagic will work for your caster classes, but they've been disabled for the shifter forms. Back when epic lizardfolk had firestorm, maximized and empowered firestorms were a thing. That's one of the reasons it was taken from the form.
Author:  NAUX [ Wed, Sep 30 2015, 12:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
I made a Icestorm blasting Raka, purely because of the Empowered, Maximized unlimited goodness. Fire Giants didn't know what hit them. It's a justified nerf and needed to be done, but a shame for one-trick unique butterfly builders like me :P
Author:  mourisson1 [ Fri, Oct 23 2015, 9:28 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
How is it with Ioun stones? Do they apply? Let's say i will have +6 condi boots, and condi Ioun stone. I cant use the stone in shift, right? But if i will use it and then shift, will i get +8 con? (let's say the shape has more con then myself)
Author:  Suhjet [ Fri, Oct 23 2015, 19:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
mourisson1 wrote:
How is it with Ioun stones? Do they apply? Let's say i will have +6 condi boots, and condi Ioun stone. I cant use the stone in shift, right? But if i will use it and then shift, will i get +8 con? (let's say the shape has more con then myself)

Ioun stones apply like buffs. You'll get the +2 stat on top of everything else, unless you're already at cap.
Author:  LibrisMortis_666 [ Fri, Oct 23 2015, 22:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Suhjet wrote:
mourisson1 wrote:
How is it with Ioun stones? Do they apply? Let's say i will have +6 condi boots, and condi Ioun stone. I cant use the stone in shift, right? But if i will use it and then shift, will i get +8 con? (let's say the shape has more con then myself)

Ioun stones apply like buffs. You'll get the +2 stat on top of everything else, unless you're already at cap.


^ What he said. Unless your cap all buffs /before/ you shift work, if it requires UMD. While shifted potions are the only thing that work.
Author:  WrathOfTheNorth [ Fri, Oct 23 2015, 22:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Suhjet wrote:
mourisson1 wrote:
How is it with Ioun stones? Do they apply? Let's say i will have +6 condi boots, and condi Ioun stone. I cant use the stone in shift, right? But if i will use it and then shift, will i get +8 con? (let's say the shape has more con then myself)

Ioun stones apply like buffs. You'll get the +2 stat on top of everything else, unless you're already at cap.


^ What he said. Unless your cap all buffs /before/ you shift work, if it requires UMD. While shifted potions are the only thing that work.


Though a word of advice, Be cautious if you have monk/Shifter. Just to avoid any complication.
Author:  Nalkanar [ Mon, Nov 23 2015, 13:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Do widgets for flying or shadowjump work while shifted? Especially for shadowjump which would not be RP restricted by form you take.
Author:  Suhjet [ Mon, Nov 23 2015, 18:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Question about Shifters
Nalkanar wrote:
Do widgets for flying or shadowjump work while shifted? Especially for shadowjump which would not be RP restricted by form you take.

Shadowjump works while shifted. Not sure about flight.
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