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So I am looking to make a strength based hin build that does well in both a pvp and pvm situation. I don't care about a subrace if needed as I will enjoy coming up with a backstory that fits I just need a build that I can enjoy when I get bored of stabbing things with Dicey xD

9 fighter /2 rogue/ 19 Weapon master ... With warhammer in fullplate armor. The most badass Hin I can think of.

Or 9/2/17 with Strongheart Halfling.

:mrgreen:

Any classes you've thought of?
As mentioned Weapon Master is the general class for Str based and does its job of increasing AB slightly and dmg drastically well, but not much else.

Barbarian is a bit more unique with its rages and higher HP, being able to push more AB out of the rage + other special abilities.

Ranger also works as Str based. Get a nice pet, Bane of Enemies + Favoured enemies will give nice dmg boost that affects even crit immune creeps, combine with 4 Fighter to get Weapon Specilization and Epic Weapon Specilization and you'll have nice dmg output even without crits.

Give us some hints on what you'd prefer to have, expect just a strong hin.

Do you want to have any summons?
Spells/Buffs?
Or just plain old hit 'em till they drop?

Bertnard wrote:

9 fighter /2 rogue/ 19 Weapon master ... With warhammer in fullplate armor. The most badass Hin I can think of.

Or 9/2/17 with Strongheart Halfling.

:mrgreen:

12/2/16 is better, trade an AB, but you don't nee dto decide between your tumbledump stuff and epic wep spec.

Well I want a build that can at least hold his own against some of the epic bosses, as for whether there is a need for buffs and what not it doesn't matter to me to be honest. One idea I had in mind was an aasimar hin 16pally/10DC/2rog using a bastard sword and work my way up to eventually getting him monkey grip.

You can add another level in that aasimar build, they're 1 ECL, not 2

Oh right I meant 17pally/10DC/2rog

I like fighter 16/wm 13/Rogue 1, you can take two favored weapons and get tons of feats

17 Paladin/10 CoT/2 Rog should be able to grap Dev crit too, just don't know if 10 Int gives enought skillpoints for usual skilldumps.

Really not sure why so many people are suggesting 2 rogue levels for the build. If you're going fighter/weaponmaster/rogue, you're most likely going to have odd numbered WM levels which matches up nicely with odd numbered rogue levels to give you even numbered fighter levels. This would max your WM weapon focus AB bonus, rogue sneak attacks, and fighter bonus feats (provided your character is a normal ECL race or +2). So I'd suggest either going three rogue levels or one monk level instead if it's the evasion feat that you're after. The monk level would give you the cleave feat for free as well, while giving up sneak attacks. The two rogue levels also really don't go well with 19 WM levels because you can only take ten levels WM pre-epic so one of those rogue levels would have to be before level 20, dropping your AB by one. Which is pretty negligible for PVM, but you don't really want that if you want to PVP.

The_C_Team wrote:

Really not sure why so many people are suggesting 2 rogue levels for the build. If you're going fighter/weaponmaster/rogue, you're most likely going to have odd numbered WM levels which matches up nicely with odd numbered rogue levels to give you even numbered fighter levels. This would max your WM weapon focus AB bonus, rogue sneak attacks, and fighter bonus feats (provided your character is a normal ECL race or +2). So I'd suggest either going three rogue levels or one monk level instead if it's the evasion feat that you're after. The monk level would give you the cleave feat for free as well, while giving up sneak attacks. The two rogue levels also really don't go well with 19 WM levels because you can only take ten levels WM pre-epic so one of those rogue levels would have to be before level 20, dropping your AB by one. Which is pretty negligible for PVM, but you don't really want that if you want to PVP.

Evasion.

God-tier feat.

My point was you would have evasion with either one level monk or three levels rogue which would work out better than builds with two levels rogue for characters who are both fighters and WMs that max out at level 28 or 30.

The_C_Team wrote:

My point was you would have evasion with either one level monk or three levels rogue which would work out better than builds with two levels rogue for characters who are both fighters and WMs that max out at level 28 or 30.

Uh, why would you go 3 rogue? That's a waste. Why would you go odd WM levels if you're going Epic WM? There is one cas,e, as we'll see... you stop WM at the following levels: 7, 13, 16, 19. You don't do 19 unless you're doing a gimmick build because you can't do both epic spec and tumble dump, making it 100% the inferior choice: either you miss out on a minimum of 12 dmg on your crits (and you're playing a WM... why are you skimping on your crit dmg?) or you lose 6 Ac and UMD. Not acceptable. You don't do 13 because paying 6 dead levels after 7 for 1 AB isn't worth it. Stick to 7 and use those levels elsewhere - common for builds that don't go heavy fighter, want shadowdancer, mor erogue, or the like. You do 7 because you're not doing epic WM, which leaves one number after we elminate the other possibilities but still determine you want epic WM: 16 WM.

If you're doing only 1 rogue, you're doing it for the tumble dump and UMD, and you're doing it in epic so you don't lose BAB. But then, since we've done the math above and seen it's only really worth doing 16 WM if we want high WM, doing 1 rogue (or 3 rogue...) leaves us with an odd numbered fighter level, and 1d6 sneak attack is worse than a feat. Therefore 1 rogue isn't enough and 3 rogue is too much - 1 rogue gets us 13 fighter, which is no evasion and no fighter feat, but 2 rogue 12 fighter is stilll no fighter feat, but now we get evasion. 3 rogue means 11 fighter, but we lose an epic feat and only gain 1d6 sneak - We don't care about that, it doesn't multiply on crits, and is worth less to us than that epic feat, which in most cases is the slot you need for Epic Prowess. Therefore... 2 rogue.

And with the above figured out, we see the only fighter left worth taking is 12.

Ergo: 12/2/16. If you're ECL +2 you do 10/2/16, if you're ECL 1 you do 11/2/16 or 12/1/16, depending on how much you really want the Evasion or need the other epic feat. Incidentally this is also how you build the bogstandard Blackguard: 12/2/16, 10/2/16, or 12(11)/1(2)/16.

P.S.: The monk build is another can of worms entirely - I only address the rogue flavor here.

TormakSaber wrote:

The_C_Team wrote:

My point was you would have evasion with either one level monk or three levels rogue which would work out better than builds with two levels rogue for characters who are both fighters and WMs that max out at level 28 or 30.

Uh, why would you go 3 rogue? That's a waste. Why would you go odd WM levels if you're going Epic WM? There is one cas,e, as we'll see... you stop WM at the following levels: 7, 13, 16, 19. You don't do 19 unless you're doing a gimmick build because you can't do both epic spec and tumble dump, making it 100% the inferior choice: either you miss out on a minimum of 12 dmg on your crits (and you're playing a WM... why are you skimping on your crit dmg?) or you lose 6 Ac and UMD. Not acceptable. You don't do 13 because paying 6 dead levels after 7 for 1 AB isn't worth it. Stick to 7 and use those levels elsewhere - common for builds that don't go heavy fighter, want shadowdancer, mor erogue, or the like. You do 7 because you're not doing epic WM, which leaves one number after we elminate the other possibilities but still determine you want epic WM: 16 WM.

If you're doing only 1 rogue, you're doing it for the tumble dump and UMD, and you're doing it in epic so you don't lose BAB. But then, since we've done the math above and seen it's only really worth doing 16 WM if we want high WM, doing 1 rogue (or 3 rogue...) leaves us with an odd numbered fighter level, and 1d6 sneak attack is worse than a feat. Therefore 1 rogue isn't enough and 3 rogue is too much - 1 rogue gets us 13 fighter, which is no evasion and no fighter feat, but 2 rogue 12 fighter is stilll no fighter feat, but now we get evasion. 3 rogue means 11 fighter, but we lose an epic feat and only gain 1d6 sneak - We don't care about that, it doesn't multiply on crits, and is worth less to us than that epic feat, which in most cases is the slot you need for Epic Prowess. Therefore... 2 rogue.

And with the above figured out, we see the only fighter left worth taking is 12.

Ergo: 12/2/16. If you're ECL +2 you do 10/2/16, if you're ECL 1 you do 11/2/16 or 12/1/16, depending on how much you really want the Evasion or need the other epic feat. Incidentally this is also how you build the bogstandard Blackguard: 12/2/16, 10/2/16, or 12(11)/1(2)/16.

P.S.: The monk build is another can of worms entirely - I only address the rogue flavor here.

Well, 16 WM levels would be the instance you would go 2 rogue levels. But I would think if you want to make the build PvP friendly as possible, you would go for max AB with 19 WM levels and one monk. Not getting epic weapon specialization only loses you 6 damage on crits with a x2 weapon as you can still get regular weapon specialization. I don't PvP a lot, but I would think that you would trade the AB for the damage there, though I may be wrong. As for UMD, I'll admit I didn't really think of that as I never use it myself.

Quote:

Well, 16 WM levels would be the instance you would go 2 rogue levels. But I would think if you want to make the build PvP friendly as possible, you would go for max AB with 19 WM levels and one monk. Not getting epic weapon specialization only loses you 6 damage on crits with a x2 weapon as you can still get regular weapon specialization. I don't PvP a lot, but I would think that you would trade the AB for the damage there, though I may be wrong. As for UMD, I'll admit I didn't really think of that as I never use it myself.

Epic Weapon Specialization is 4 extra damage on your hits. If you are a WM, the whole point mechanically is AB, crit range, and crit multiplier. A typical X2 weapon would be x3, so that 4 points becomes 12. Even a X1 weapon will give 8 points on a critical. I'm not seeing this 6 points you're speaking of.

Also... 1 AB vs about 12 damage on a critical? I'd swap that.

If you're not using UMD on a WM, you're missing out on wands and scrolls, which... let's be honest, are incredibly helpful even for PVM.

Maverick00053 wrote:

Evasion.

God-tier feat.

Only if you actually have the reflex save to make it work. Most WM builds have very little reflex comparatively, and are best off relying on spell mantles for their survival. Evasion is a window dressing at best, Improved Evasion the only one worth taking.

Bard is a much better skill dump, you get tumble/umd/spellcraft.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Maverick00053 wrote:

Evasion.

God-tier feat.

Only if you actually have the reflex save to make it work. Most WM builds have very little reflex comparatively, and are best off relying on spell mantles for their survival. Evasion is a window dressing at best, Improved Evasion the only one worth taking.

Bard is a much better skill dump, you get tumble/umd/spellcraft.

True. Though Evasion even with low reflex is damn useful in PvM. Most monster spell DCs, etc are pitiful.

Until it gets nerfed or removed from gear, I will fully advocate all WMs take bard and wear improved evasion gear. It is literally the best thing ever for a WM build. It also almost even makes having a good will save possible.

That Guy wrote:

Quote:

Well, 16 WM levels would be the instance you would go 2 rogue levels. But I would think if you want to make the build PvP friendly as possible, you would go for max AB with 19 WM levels and one monk. Not getting epic weapon specialization only loses you 6 damage on crits with a x2 weapon as you can still get regular weapon specialization. I don't PvP a lot, but I would think that you would trade the AB for the damage there, though I may be wrong. As for UMD, I'll admit I didn't really think of that as I never use it myself.

Epic Weapon Specialization is 4 extra damage on your hits. If you are a WM, the whole point mechanically is AB, crit range, and crit multiplier. A typical X2 weapon would be x3, so that 4 points becomes 12. Even a X1 weapon will give 8 points on a critical. I'm not seeing this 6 points you're speaking of.

Also... 1 AB vs about 12 damage on a critical? I'd swap that.

If you're not using UMD on a WM, you're missing out on wands and scrolls, which... let's be honest, are incredibly helpful even for PVM.

For some reason I had always thought that epic weapon specialization and normal weapon specialization did not stack. Looked it up on NWN wiki and turns out they do. That being the case, yeah, I'd have to agree, you'd want to get epic weapon specialization.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Until it gets nerfed or removed from gear, I will fully advocate all WMs take bard and wear improved evasion gear. It is literally the best thing ever for a WM build. It also almost even makes having a good will save possible.

The only problem here is dispelling. You'd have a caster level of 2, so... a good gust of wind would dispel all your wand and potion buffs.

Thanks for the input guys going for the Strongheart 10/16/2 Fighter/WM/Rogue and gonna work for monkey grip worked out the outcome and I like what I see.

That Guy wrote:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Until it gets nerfed or removed from gear, I will fully advocate all WMs take bard and wear improved evasion gear. It is literally the best thing ever for a WM build. It also almost even makes having a good will save possible.

The only problem here is dispelling. You'd have a caster level of 2, so... a good gust of wind would dispel all your wand and potion buffs.

Not if you have a negative CHA modifier. If you take a caster class but are unable to gain caster levels because of your caster stat being to low you don't have your CL changed for purposes of dispelling. It's a weird tick in NWN.

Of course that's why I'd never suggest Bard/Blackguard.

Strength Based Hin Build

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