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Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood Elf
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Author:  Carvelan [ Mon, Nov 23 2015, 7:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood Elf
Hello Again!
After playing my Drow Cleric for a few weeks its going great but sometime I feal a bit alone in the dark down there. So im starting another Charakter so I have someone to run around the surfase whit.
Plan is Str based ranger using two-bladed sword.
For feats and stuff i guess its all the weapon stuff and blind fight but is there any metamagic or something i should consider?
And the thing i wounder the most is what favor enemies to pick: Undead, outsiders and Giants ar a given but more than that im lost plz help me out. And any other tips towards rangers is welcome because this is my first attempt at creating one.
Author:  Shadowfiend [ Tue, Nov 24 2015, 9:57 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue - Wood Elf
25 ranger 4 fighter and 1 rogue should work very well. Put the last fighter lvl so you can choose weapon spec and epic weapon spec. It should be pretty straight forward for those builds. Also make sure to pick bane of enemies as a bonus epic ranger feat.
Favoured enemies that you will benefit the most from are: Outsiders, undead, human. Others depends on if you want to be a strong pvp'er, pve'er or something in between. For PvP I'd pick: elf, half-elf or dwarf. For PvE I'd pick giants.. This should actually cover most pve stuff that's worth doing, and the buff would be helpful for.

Since you're going wood elf, forcing you to spend one feat on something you should sorely spend on something else (like kd), I'd rather drop the exotic weapons feat and pick another weapon. Two longswords will give you the same stuff and allow you to use a shield.
Author:  Nalkanar [ Tue, Nov 24 2015, 18:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue - Wood Elf
Just to give you something to think about.

I was thinking about similar build. 23 Ranger - 5 Master Scout - 2 Rogue.

Strenght focused, devast, two weapons (really does not matter that much, though I would probably not take exotic, since this build is feat demandind)
You get Evasion + Tumble dump from Rogue, possibly other skills.
You get Master Scout's passive freedom and 2 bonus epic feats.
You take Ranger's dual wield in light armor and add some bit of dex item to get usable AC. If needed you can take shield of course. Bane of enemies on your enemies as well.
Author:  Raua [ Tue, Nov 24 2015, 19:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue - Wood Elf
Both the above are excellent builds, I'll write up versions of each of hem when I get home for people to nitpick at their leisure.
Author:  Carvelan [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 8:21 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue - Wood Elf
Thanks that would be nice of you. The master scout build sounds interesting.
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 13:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue - Wood Elf
Alrighty, Here's my base to work off of, everyone else feel free to nitpick and offer recommendations if you see something you'd change~

Olive's build workshop wrote:
Wood Elf:
Ranger 25 / Fighter 4 / Rogue 1
STR: 17 (19-26)
DEX: 10
CON: 10
WIS: 14
INT: 14 (12)
CHA: 9

Pre-epic: Ranger 17, Fighter 3

Feats:
1 Weapon Proficiency: Exotic
3 Weapon Focus: Two-bladed Sword
6 Power Attack
9 Improved Critical: Two-bladed Sword
12 Extend Spell
15 Cleave
18 Great Cleave
21 Epic Weapon Focus
24 (Fighter) Weapon Specialization
27 Overwhelming Critical: Two-bladed Sword
30 Devastating Critical: Two-bladed Sword
Fighter Bonus:
1 Knockdown
2 Blind-fight
4 Epic Weapon Specialization
Ranger Bonus:
1 Favored Enemy
5 Favored Enemy
10 Favored Enemy
15 Favored Enemy
20 Favored Enemy
23 Bane of Enemies
25 Epic Prowess OR another Favored Enemy

Skills:
AA: 33
Discipline: 33
Spot: 33
Tumble: 30
UMD: 21
+ 15




OR for the MS

Ranger 23 / MS 5 / Rogue 2

STR: 15 (17-24)
DEX: 14
CON: 12
WIS: 14
INT: 14 (12)
CHA: 8

Pre-epic: Ranger 20

Feats:
1 Weapon Proficiency: Exotic
3 Skill Focus: Listen
6 Weapon Focus: Two-bladed Sword
9 Extend Spell
12 Improved Critical: Two-bladed Sword
15 Blind-fight
18 Skill Focus: Spot
21 Epic Weapon Focus: Two-bladed Sword
24 Armor Skin
27 Epic Fortitude
30 Epic Prowess
Ranger Bonus:
1 Favored Enemy
5 Favored Enemy
10 Favored Enemy
15 Favored Enemy
20 Favored Enemy
23 Bane of Enemies
MS bonus:
1 Epic Skill Focus: Spot
5 Epic Skill Focus: Discipline

Skills:
AA: 33
Craft Trap: 2
Disable Trap: 2
Discipline: 33
Listen: 2
Lore: 6
Search: 2
Set Trap: 2
Spot: 33
Tumble: 30
UMD: 21
+9
Author:  Carvelan [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 15:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Both looks interesting. But I'm starting to rethink the weapon for this build. I realised the Two bladed sword do not look as badass as I thought and lacking the ability to use a shild will hurt when lvling up. So I could go Kurkis instead but it feals wrong on a dev.crit build and does not feal like Elven weapons. Dual Longswords or Scimitars would look cool but that minus AB kinda destroys that one. Is there any way do go Longsword mainhand and Shortsword offhand whitout loosing alot of Damage? Maybe dropp Exotic weapon prof for weapon focus shortsword?

All advice are welcome.
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 16:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
If you wanted to do that you could, I'd say do something like this (This will only work with the dev Critical build)

Weapon focus/specialization Two-bladed Sword -> Weapon focus: Longsword
Improved Critical: Two-bladed Sword -> Improved critical: Longsword
Epic weapon focus/Weapon spec: Two bladed sword -> Longsword

Weapon proficiency: Exotic -> Weapon focus: Shortsword
Knockdown or blind-fight -> improved critical: Shortsword
Bonus favored enemy in epics -> epic weapon focus: Shortsword

Cons are kinda big with this, first of all, you'll only get dev critical with one or the other, Longsword or Shortsword. Which means either 4 of 6 attacks has a chance to be a dev critical, or 2 of 6. Rather than 6 if you left it with your two blader. You also won't be able to get weapon specialization with both either. Again, you'll need to pick. Which means worse damage for the same amount of AC. Aaaaaand you won't get your 1.5x Str mod to your damage, like you would with a double sword.

But all of that's really meaningless if the RP of the build and character says to do it this particular way!

My advice is to stick with the weapon, or go single-weapon sword'n'board.
Author:  Ti'avel [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 16:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Going with dual shortswords will both save you a feat (exotic) and you only have a -2 AB penalty.


The first build shown will achieve about a 46 AB (48 vs FE's) and an AC of 44 assuming +4 gear, no shield, full tumble and you can max out your dexterity using shortswords. If you used longswords, scimitars, etc, you would be at 44 and 46 AB. There were no expertise or improved expertise feats taken. Just me, but, I like having high AC. Having expertise lets you use some of that high AB to get better AC (well, not really, but, you get +5 AC for giving up 5 AB, and +10 AC for -10 AB with improved expertise.). Just something to consider.

The second build... that one will achieve 45 AB (47 against FE's, and 49 in wilderness areas against FE's), but again, low'ish AC of 44.

I'd recommend taking at least expertise, if not improved expertise as well. It's nice having the ability to raise your armor class when in a pinch. Of course, you can just swap out to a shield, but, that gets you 51. It's really great to be able to hit 61 when you need it, and you'd still have up to a 39 AB, which will be -fair- against most monster mobs on Amia still. Useful when in groups, you can hold off the mob, while others pick them off.

Just some more food for thought.

Both of those builds are workable, but both can be tweaked to be either more utilitarian or more powerful.
Author:  Ti'avel [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 16:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Raua wrote:
. Aaaaaand you won't get your 1.5x Str mod to your damage, like you would with a double sword.


Umm.... this doesn't happen. Two bladed weapons are treated as if you were dual wielding two weapons. The main hand gets full STR damage, the off hand gets half STR damage. The only real advantage to a two bladed weapon is they can be dual 1D8's with only a -2 penalty, and you only need to use one casting of flame weapon or darkfire to light both sides.
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 16:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Huh, thought it did. Hokay then~
Author:  Ti'avel [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 16:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
I wish! If it did, MANY more would use them. It'd be like having a two-hander and a side weapon at the same time. 6 attacks with 4 of them at 1.5x str multiplier... yeah, would be awesome for damage, but, sadly, just not how it works. Many people -say- that's what it's like since... 4 attacks at full str and 2 at 1/2 str, is -sorta- the same as 4 attacks at 1.5 STR, but... not really.
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 16:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
But, my suggestion, if you want to take expertise, is to give up on dual wielding, say fuck it and wear heavy armor, and take a shield. The penalties from expertise and dual wielding net up to -7 AB, for +5 AC. Not worth it in my opinion.

The way I see it is;

Expertise: :)

Expertise + Dual wielding; :(

But, if that fits what you want, that's up to you!
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 17:01 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Here's derp. I just realized. Neither of these builds can get expertise. The requisite 13 INT isn't met! You'd need to fuss with your other ability scores.
Author:  Ti'avel [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 17:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Yup... being a STR ranger you can totally go sword and board in full plate and be one heck of a damage dealer. Dual wielders are great if you're a dexer, IMHO, so you can get in some good damage with more attacks. However...

If you do that, try to get Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon specialization. That 6 damage, on top of FE damage and Bane of Enemies damage is pretty awesome.

24 ranger/4 fighter (all epic levels)/2 rogue (epic levels, for tumble and some skills)

Why 2 rogue? Well, evasion. It's so great to have, I make sure all my builds get it. 24 ranger means you won't get dispelled by greater dispelling. 4 fighter in the epics nets you Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec.

For a wood elf, here's my thoughts:
STR 14 (16 and all points go here, so 23)
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 16 (14 after wood elf)
WIS 14
CHA 10

Pre epic, 20 ranger.
Feats: Weapon focus (longsword recommended), improved critical longsword, toughness, blind fight, expertise, improved expertise, extend spell

Epic:
21 fighter > Epic weapon spec, GR STR I
22 fighter > Armor Skin
23 fighter
24 fighter > Weapon Spec, Epic Weapon Spec
25 rogue > TUMBLE, UMD if you want it
26 ranger
27 ranger > GR STR II
28 ranger > BANE OF ENEMIES
29 rogue > Remaining Tumble, other skills
30 ranger > GR STR III

You will end with a 26 STR, giving you a max AB of 48 (50 vs FE), you will achieve 51 AC, and up to 61 using improved expertise.

Your damage will be very high:
14 STR damage
6 Weapon Spec and EWS
D8 sword
D6-10 Ele damage depending on your weapon
5 enchantment damage from blade thirst
5 favored enemy damage
2D6 favored enemy damage

Almost the damage from a weaponmaster, but more consistent, and it works against undead.
There are many ways to do it, this is just a suggestion. Oh, you can spread your skills how you like. I suggest discipline, heal, tumble, and UMD... the rest is up to you.
Author:  Nalkanar [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 18:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
I would personally go with MS. It's just my opinion and I am not that interested in PvP.
I would drop out Extend spell and exotic and took some martial weapon. Longsword or scimitar, so I could switch off-hand for shield when needed. With these two feats I would take expertise. I would also drop those epic focuses Raua wrote down and took Epic Strength, so you can start with lower strength but higher int enough for expertise.
Since you are basically full strength build and full AB character I would not be worried about losing AB even for bigger weapon - you're still gonna hit (from what I heard even characters that reach barely 40 AB can dev-crit bosses pretty well, so you should be fine).

Also don't forget about Blade thirst spell and use weapons that can work with that. Basically at level 15 you can go rest to rest with buffed weapons with keen. ;)
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 18:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
No love for extended blade thirst? :cry:
Author:  Ti'avel [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 19:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Also.. 15 caster levels, you're getting dispelled by a large number of high level mobs and Rangers get martial weapons... not sure why you would need the feat.
Author:  Nalkanar [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 19:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
I love extending spells in general. But with Ranger I feel that it is not that needed. Ranger might end up having actually enough free slots to just rest another as sort of "extension".
And I think I haven't encoutered any dispelling till I was at epic lvl. And 23 caster lvl is not that bad. In group (where the build will be most useful as pretty good dmger) this weakness can be covered by group buffer. In PvP... meh I don't really care about PvP for several reasons...
Author:  Raua [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 19:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
No one said anything about only having 15 caster levels, sillyum~ :P

It's really just a personal convenience thing. I know I'd much rather have 46-48 turns worth of free +5 and keen than 23-24!

Both work, it just goes down to what spells you plan on using

:P
Author:  Carvelan [ Wed, Nov 25 2015, 21:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Ti'avel wrote:
Yup... being a STR ranger you can totally go sword and board in full plate and be one heck of a damage dealer. Dual wielders are great if you're a dexer, IMHO, so you can get in some good damage with more attacks. However...

If you do that, try to get Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon specialization. That 6 damage, on top of FE damage and Bane of Enemies damage is pretty awesome.

24 ranger/4 fighter (all epic levels)/2 rogue (epic levels, for tumble and some skills)

Why 2 rogue? Well, evasion. It's so great to have, I make sure all my builds get it. 24 ranger means you won't get dispelled by greater dispelling. 4 fighter in the epics nets you Weapon Spec and Epic Weapon Spec.

For a wood elf, here's my thoughts:
STR 14 (16 and all points go here, so 23)
DEX 10
CON 12
INT 16 (14 after wood elf)
WIS 14
CHA 10

Pre epic, 20 ranger.
Feats: Weapon focus (longsword recommended), improved critical longsword, toughness, blind fight, expertise, improved expertise, extend spell

Epic:
21 fighter > Epic weapon spec, GR STR I
22 fighter > Armor Skin
23 fighter
24 fighter > Weapon Spec, Epic Weapon Spec
25 rogue > TUMBLE, UMD if you want it
26 ranger
27 ranger > GR STR II
28 ranger > BANE OF ENEMIES
29 rogue > Remaining Tumble, other skills
30 ranger > GR STR III

You will end with a 26 STR, giving you a max AB of 48 (50 vs FE), you will achieve 51 AC, and up to 61 using improved expertise.

Your damage will be very high:
14 STR damage
6 Weapon Spec and EWS
D8 sword
D6-10 Ele damage depending on your weapon
5 enchantment damage from blade thirst
5 favored enemy damage
2D6 favored enemy damage

Almost the damage from a weaponmaster, but more consistent, and it works against undead.
There are many ways to do it, this is just a suggestion. Oh, you can spread your skills how you like. I suggest discipline, heal, tumble, and UMD... the rest is up to you.


This build actually fits really well with the concept I had in mind. More of a warrior then a scout, like a chaotic good paladin of the woods. And gearing for abilities will be alot easier when I don't need to max out DEX for ac, STR for damage and con for hp and instead focus only on str and con. Now what is the difference between the different animal companions and what favor enemies to take.

Gear wise I guess the medium 5/2 armor with tower shield and longsword will be the way to go until I get the fighter lvls and can pick up full plate.
Author:  Carvelan [ Thu, Nov 26 2015, 12:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Ti'avel wrote:
Sword and board str build.


Now I have created a ranger after this build onley alteration i made was to lower cha to 8 and put that point to str for a starting str of 17. So now i can dropp greater str III and get Epic powers instead.
Now i just have to figure out what favor enemies to take(picked Undead on lvl 1) and what animal companion to go whit.
Author:  Nalkanar [ Thu, Nov 26 2015, 12:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Companion - since your build seems tank-ish you could probably take panther for damage. I also think it fits wood elven nature. Also the bear is pretty good damager, but I would say he loses to panther later on as panther gets higher sneak dmg. But my experience is that they equally have problem to function (= suck) on epic lvls so choose whichever you like.

With enemies - it was already said - it depends mostly on your focus for pvp or pve. Giants and undead seems problematic, elf and human for PvP are probably majority, maybe dwarfs.
Author:  Larsaan [ Thu, Nov 26 2015, 12:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Outsider for sure, both for the Abyss and planetouched PCs.

Companion-wise, badger is supposedly the cookie cutter choice. I know from experience that the boar does pretty hefty damage at the lower-to-mid levels, but I dunno how it performs once you hit epic. Plus, the boar model is the most adorable thing when it gets knocked down.
Author:  Carvelan [ Thu, Nov 26 2015, 13:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
Gonna focus mostly on pve so I guess undead, giant, outsider, human and something more. I'm leaning towards the panther as it fits the wood elf lore and if it's a dps companion it's nothing more to think about. Can you switch companion if you like?
Author:  Larsaan [ Thu, Nov 26 2015, 15:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
You can switch every time you take a level in Ranger. If you want to switch once you hit max level, you'll have to ask for a rebuild, probably with an IC reason.
Author:  Carvelan [ Thu, Nov 26 2015, 18:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
I just wanna say thanks for all the help and respons I got for this build. What's left now is just to get involved whit the rest of the elvs and play in the woods.
Author:  Shadowfiend [ Wed, Dec 02 2015, 15:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
When it comes to companions, pick a dps one unless you're going for 25 or more lvls of ranger, because the companions won't be strong in pve anyway before then. Will still be useful against epic summons though
Author:  Carvelan [ Thu, Dec 03 2015, 21:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Build: Ranger/Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/MS/Rogue - Wood El
I have tried the bear and the panther this fare and now on lvl 10-11 I find the bear more useful because it can both dps and tank.
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