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Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is best
https://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=143&t=87452		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  #StraightOutaAvernus [ Thu, Oct 13 2016, 21:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is best
Thought I'd spark a discussion on what people thought about what class is best for what skills -- specifically emphasizing those which are most mechanically strived for.

Because personally it took me a while to figure all these things out rip.



Let's start with...

Tumble

    Regardless of your opinion on the skill, it's +6 AC for a maximized investment. This is understandably useful for 'most' builds (exception being STRbuilds that don't get Armor Skin, or Archers without either Divine Shield or Monk levels -- due to having a low AC mark anyway)

    These're the classes that have the skill, and the benefits for an investment of levels in each.

    I'd like to discuss what everyone thinks is better for each, and why specifically?

BardPositives!:
    + A 'lot' of access to a 'lot' of skills besides this one -- covered in later topics, but inclusive of Discipline, Spellcraft, UMD, and Taunt. (Any number)

    + 6 skill points per level

    + Medium Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency

    + No Requirements

    + Access to Bard Song and Curse Song, which can be useful depending on the dip size

    + Access to Arcane Wands without UMD

    + The equivalent of 1 free Lore for every level -- good for RPing knowledge and IDing loot free

    + Non-epic Caster Feats can be taken on Bard levels

Downsides!:
    - Races or Builds that bring your Charisma modifier to a positive count 'may' cause you to be easier to dispel (due to checking your CL if you can cast!)

    - Poor Fortitude

    - Often 'only' useful as either 1 or when in excess of 8 levels

    - Alignment locked to Neutral/Chaotic on the Law-Chaos spectrum!


RoguePositives!:
    + Additional access to UMD, Spot, and trap working skills (Any number)

    + 6 skill points per level

    + 1d6 Sneak Attack

    + Uncanny Dodge at level 3

    + Evasion at level 2

    + No effect on Dispels

Downsides!:
    - No Shield Proficiency if you already lack it!

    - Poor Fortitude

    - Evasion isn't improved, so if your Reflex is already bad; it won't help you

    - Sneak Attack won't stack with Sneak Attack on items


AssassinPositives!:
    + Same Skill access as Rogue

    + Access to all Assassin Widgets accessible at level 1

    + 1d6 Death Attack (damage and CL + 10 + INTmod fort save vs paralysis when initiating or in Darkness) that stacks with Sneak Attack on items

    + Uncanny Dodge at level 2

    + Use Poison at level 1

    + Poison Saves improved at level 2

    + No effect on Dispels

Downsides!:
    - only 4 skill points per level

    - Heavy Requirements that are usually non class skills for classes without Tumble already (8 Hide and 8 Move Silently)

    - Poor Fortitude

    - No Shield Proficiency if you don't already have it!


Master ScoutPositives!:
    + Access to Spot and Discipline besides Tumble

    + d8 HP

    + 6 skill points per level

    + Medium Armor Proficiency and Shield Proficiency

    + Permanent Freedom after Level 5

    + Nature Sense at level 2, which yields +2 AB in the wilderness!

    + Movespeed Increased Outdoors

    + Item Crafting at level 2

    + Bonus Feats at levels 1 and 5, which can be taken in Epics to get a Great Stat feat in Dexterity, Constitution, or Strength

Downsides!:
    - Bad Will

    - Is more beneficial than Bard only after level 1

    - Heavy Skill Requirements

    - Two feat Investment


ShadowdancerPositives!:
    + Access to Spot besides Tumble

    + 6 skill points per level

    + Hide in Plain Sight and Shadow Jump at level 6

    + Defensive Roll at Level 5

    + Shadow Evade at Level 4

    + Shadow Daze at Level 3

    + Evasion, Darkvision, and Uncanny Dodge at level 2

Downsides!:
    - Poor Fortitude

    - Skill Intensive, including requiring Tumble to acquire; which may be counterproductive to builds using it to acquire Tumble

    - Two feat investment which doesn't synergize with non-WMs

    - Most benefits of the class require more than 1 level


MonkPositives!:
    + Access to Discipline as well as Tumble

    + Movespeed, APR and AC boosts when unarmored

    + Free Improved Unarmed Strike -- useful when Disarmed

    + Flurry of Blows adds 1 APR when using Staves, fists, and Kamas

    + APR and Movespeed persist when in shape

    + d8 HP

    + 6 skill points per level

    + Monk Weapon Proficiency

    + Deflect Arrows

    + No bad saves

Downsides!:
    - Most of its benefits are only useful unarmored, and actively deduct themselves retroactively otherwise

    - Due to the way WIS AC is removed from shapes, more than 2 levels currently reduces the AC of wisdom builds when in shape more than the feat provides.

    - Alignment locked to Lawfuls





I'm personally a sucker for Master Scout builds and consider Bard traditionally better due to having the widest variety of skill access out of any class in the game.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Oct 14 2016, 2:44 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
If only taking 1 level and not caring about UMD:

Monk > Rogue > Bard > Assassin > MS > SD

prestige classes are by default lower due to being less accessible and if you don't care about UMD, monk gets you the most for level 1 period.
Author:  Commie [ Fri, Oct 14 2016, 3:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
Ranger can get you the epic spell focus too, along with armor prof's and shield prof. Worth it for the 1 level dip for some characters.

edit; Although you don't get tumble. I realize that's the 'point' of this topic but it's still a very good 1 level dip.
Author:  thunderbrush [ Fri, Oct 14 2016, 12:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
Um. I don't think any one is better than the other..just depends on what you are trying to build. Consider a two level investment in rogue will get you an early tumble dump and later on, max tumble, umd and evasion. I guess it depends on what holes you need to fill.
Author:  Cratz [ Fri, Oct 14 2016, 21:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
I think you meant to put the Neutral/Chaotic restriction under the Bard, not the Rogue.
Author:  Overneath [ Sat, Oct 15 2016, 13:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
I think you may have accidentally gotten a few numbers from 3.5 instead of the 3.0 NWN nominally runs on. Monk and Bard get 4 + INT skill points and Rogues get 8. I hate using bard as a skilldump class for this exact reason - rare is the build that gives you enough points to spend on all the skills it gives you access to, by which I mean Spellcraft and Taunt are nice but can your mostly-warrior afford them after dumping for Tumble/UMD?* Also of note is that it only gives you Listen, not Spot (ditto Monk), which can be detrimental to builds with no other 'sight' skills to dump in, because my understanding has always been that spot is superior and preferable.

I know I'm stepping into a ring I shouldn't be in with those assumptions, so if I'm off-base I appreciate a correction.

Since we're discussing skills, I have a build quirk and I keep wondering whether it's insane. When I use rogue for my skill dumps on a 2+-heavy build like a melee cleric or mostly-fighter, I usually go 2 rogue. One at 1st level for quadrupled skill points (which is something like an extra 24 points on average overall) and the second at 27 or 30. Is that first level placement bonkers? The benefit seems substantial to me, but does it matter enough in the long run to outright replace a 7th or 17th level slot?


* - bear in mind I'm the kind of person who views Lore and Heal as absolutely indispensable.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sat, Oct 15 2016, 23:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
The first level argument is entirely if you're willing to trade 1 ab for the extra skill points. I make that trade regularly.
Author:  #StraightOutaAvernus [ Sun, Oct 16 2016, 1:47 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
I'd typically argue that's highly dependent on what build is being used in question.

If it's a build that can work with 2 rogue levels, there's no reason not to; but if it's a build (like a battle cleric) where taking two is actively detrimental (>Having no reflex and trading a feat for evasion) then I wouldn't.

Most weapon masters are perfectly fine going for max skill points, though; that being Strength or Dexterity based.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Oct 16 2016, 6:56 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Skills and You: What classes have what, and which is bes
On a cleric with Spellcraft I'd probably still go Evasion and do 24/4/2 instead of 25/4/1 especially since you can afford to use UMD for Owl's Insight scrolls and use Undeath's Eternal Foe for natural AC letting you wear a saves amulet. Wis amulet/gear -> buff with scroll -> change to saves amulet.
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