Those people are just begging me to not take them seriously.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I bet you did the completely impossible there Mana

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

You can dislike anyone if you try hard enough. You just have to believe in yourself and your boundless capacity for hatred.

That could actually be a pretty fun mind game. I wonder if people would react differently to two PCs who had the same Charisma and acted pretty much the same way (annoying, self-centered, "cutesy", overtly pushy) but the other had a cute portrait and a bio to the effect of "incredibly adorable and impossible to dislike" and the other "narcissist midget with a squeaky voice" and, like, the young drunkard with a goblet portrait. The former a female, of course.

The bio is just authorial interpretation, you can hardly succeed or fail to represent your charisma "accurately" there. I find that people who claim their characters are extremely charismatic when they're not supposed to be are not themselves clever enough to convince, anyway.

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I have a button for it actually!

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I'm an advocate of this kind of thinking. Both beauty and ugliness are subjective things, so it is unwise to use certain adjectives when describing your character. "High cheekbones" or "white teeth" are fine, "handsome" or "beautiful" are generally not! That said, in game biographies aren't good for representing your charisma score. Your roleplay matters most.

You shouldn't give up on your beliefs, Mana. I think it is wise and admirable to advise those who refuse or fail to roleplay their ability scores, high or low.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

I'm actually the opposite. I'm fine with people using words such as beautiful and handsome as it convays a more universally accepted ideal of physical attractiveness. A description of an elf with "beautiful golden flowing hair" rather than just "golden flowing hair" signifies to me, the player interacting with this elf, that they most likely have high charisma because for what ever reason, no matter my character's background, race or whatever, they would find this elf's hair attractive. Which is what my understanding of charisma does.

Well not just regarding people's hair, but it is a broad mix of different factors, physical and social. By not using certain adjectives you are falling into that trap of subjectiveness that is discussed in the above posts. By just sticking to neutral descriptives such as "a slim and toned physique" a character who may not find these features generally attractive may not instatantly accept their high charisma in a universal sense.

More so, by using subjective terms such as 'beautiful' and 'handsome' it leaves it up to me the other player to use my imagination on how my PC may find beauty in your PC. It doesn't box in your character's description to only one impression. Go ahead and write that your kobold is 'cute' with its 19 charisma, as that is how you want your PCs charisma manifest itself, and then let me decide how my PC would see it as cute.

This is just from me as I like to read peoples descriptions to aid me with clues in how my PC may react to the other persons RP. In this very limited game world it is a useful tool to utilise for this purpose as only relying on RP alone to convay charisma can be very one dimensional unless that person is a very skilled talk box writer, which not everyone is. Especially in the meaning of those with epic charisma scores which in my opinion are almost impossible to do justice even for the Danial Day-Lewis' we have playing here.

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aaegus battlehammer™

cloak rockhewer

murtaugh gunn

I always try and RP the stats of my characters to some extent. Charisma esspiecially. Something I have had experience with when it came to my Dwarf Whurak. To start with, he had a charisma of 6. Yes, 6. I tried to play this tradegy of social graces in several ways.

1.) Whurak is Ugly. Not just slightly Ugly... but Very Ugly. About half of his head is covered in burn scars, which turn him into a slightly less dramatic version of Two Face. What is left of the usual part of his face has its fair share of scarring as well from various battles and fights. His beard has suffered, mostly due to the fact that quite a lot of his face will no longer grow hair. As such, he actually shaves one side so what he does have isn't lopsided and has managed a wispy chin beard, quite a shameful offering for a dwarf.

2.) He is rather Forthright when it comes to social situations. If he didn't like someone he would tell them, if he didn't like what they were saying, he'd tell them, if he didn't like what someone was wearing, he'd tell them. This would often be in the form of mocking, which some people found rather endearing (Their choice really)

3.) I used to look at any social situation I got into with him, and think to myself; "What can I say that will insult someone in this conversation and make it look like an accident." It was a very deliberate act to offend peoples characters, mostly because I feel that a charisma 6 person, should just rub people the wrong way, even if they are trying to be nice. Taking 10 as Human average... a charisma 6 person is not really someone you would want to spend time with after all.

I Obviously wasn't playing his social deficit hard enough however, as the path of RP had him being pushed into more and more social situations. He got elected councillor, appointed head of the dwarven army, sent on diplomatic missions. Alone the way, he has been rebuilt... and because of his being forced into social situations, he has gotten better at it. And now has a mighty charisma of 10! (Rawr.)

So what has changed?
He is still Fugly. He is still forthright. But I no longer deliberately accidently insult peoples characters, as he has gotten to the point where he is better at not rubbing people up the wrong way. He is even a little more sly in social situations, sometimes using his blunt forthrightness as a weapon rather than a shield. Is he good at it? Nah. Is he passable? I think so.

Thought I would share my experiences with him here as it seemed appropriate.

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Avatar Picture from Brinawilliamson.com

Player of:
- Whurak Thunderhammer
King of Barak Runedar and all round Vengeful Dwarf
- Alvian Tegleiwalla
Nerdy Painter Elf with a Silly hat

This is what two of my characters with low charisma use to reflect their repulsive effect. It's hard to relay exact physical characteristics in a game with racial models with identical shapes, so I find it easier to ignore it. Am I wrong for doing that? *shrug*

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An example to back this up is that one of the most charismatic races in the forgotten realms are illithids. Force of personality in this case has nothing to do with how attractive they are physically, social graces they possess, or having a reputation that depicts their race as being trustworthy. An illithid expects to be in control of other races by shear force of personality and will, and they usually are. Thus, they have charisma.

¿No te gusta la calamar? Los squidos muy bonito.

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THREE

To my mind, a CHA 8 character could be a regular John with the emotional intelligence of a frying pan, a wishy-washy Elven wanderer who silently stares at scenery for hours on end, a musty old wizard who can't ever remember what he's talking about, or a washed-up veteran who actually has disfiguring scars instead of designer ones. Vaguely unpleasant or straight up forgettable, either socially or physically. The kind of people you might be cornered by at parties or bars that you just want to get away from regardless of how nice they are.

Then on the other end of the spectrum you have those people who just have presence. Who are stared at as soon as they enter a room for the invisible energy that they seem to bring with them that says 'this is someone you should pay attention to' on an unconscious level. They don't necessarily have to be beautiful, but for the purposes of representing charisma in-game this usually helps.

Obviously it's irritating when you get the 6 CHA wondermodels, but I think the vast majority of people are going to play their CHA a little higher than it "should" be for the sake of having an interesting character. After all, people are generally playing adventurers who probably eschewed the quiet life/went through some terrible ordeals in order to risk life and limb in crazy shenanigans or show the world what they're made of/save the world/bend it to their will. These kinds of people are probably going to have a little more of that invisible energy about them than Randy Bill from Tandy Mill, even if their CHA scores might be similar. Our PCs are in a slightly different league.

That's why I'm in agreement that it's a difficult call to make when trying to decide if people are playing true to their mental stats, save for the blatantly extreme cases like the aforementioned 6 CHA wondermodel.

I'd also like to agree with Liz's point about roleplaying CHA effectively: it's going to be hard to play an 18 CHA character if you're not that kind of person yourself. People can't re-interpret what your character is saying because 'oh he has 18 base CHA' if it's not actually charming in and of itself. The same way people might have difficulty taking a high int/wis character seriously if you kept acting like an idiot. In that way, people who have a more gifted grasp of social situations or language might present their characters as being more charismatic than they actually are - or maybe that's your OOC fondness for a good roleplayer bleeding into your judgement of said character. What a messy concept.

Ah well, it's all part of the fun of trying to fit something as complex and multifaceted as a human personality into a vague set of numbers.

So you want to talk about beauty...
I never assume Charisma is equal to attractiveness. No.

For one thing, all of these statistics are attractive:

Constitution,
Strength,
Grace,
Wisdom,
Intelligence,

Very sexy!

People can fall in love with any of those characteristics, it just takes the eye to see what is beautiful to recognize that. You may look at your partner for example, and say, she's rather oblong. But her mind is a diamond. and her body is something exotic. And if you keep looking, you will start to see extraordinary things that contrast the most shallow flaws. But only if you are in love and are into the kind of thing that she or he is.

Say you are watching Bonk the ogre. Smells like shit and his face looks microwaved. But he's strong! What a bod. I am sure he can break that bridge with his feet. Do you need someone strong? Maybe you do. Maybe that's all you want is a strong body to service you when you're tired at the end of the day. Maybe you can survive that smell. Maybe you have a thing for strong smells and beer bellies. Bonk may be a great lover.


There's no universal standard, even in the Forgotten Realms setting for what makes someone 'physically attractive.' Some people like symmetry, some people don't like symmetry, some people like hairy men, some people like bald men, some people like scars, some people like clear skin, some people like colorful eyes, some people don't like colorful eyes. Some people like large penises and some like small packages, some people like large breasts and some people like small ones. Yes, Really!

I think people have the liberty to give any of their characters the form they want them to have, the scars they want them to have, and the eye color/hair, etc. etc. Because of the fact, not every NPC or PC is going to find your character attractive based on your own definition of attractiveness. You're going to be let down if you think that a high CHA means that everyone is going to flock to you. Just describe your character well, and those who like that sort of thing, will like that sort of thing. Those who won't, won't. Beauty disguises in range, the eye of the other can only discern when it has seen it.

So what is Charisma good for? In my opinion? It is the power of voice.
The power of being able to throw yourself out there in a crowd and articulate your calling. Politicians, knights, sorcerers, and bards are excellent at this. They may be more able to be leaders than followers by being clear in their needs and demands and do not err on the side of mysticism or secrecy. They are not myths among their peers, they are more like rooks. At best, an 18 CHA person is like an unbreakable spirit. So married are they to their paradigm and their own 'path' so well do they know themselves, that only death maybe can bend them away from their compass of obtaining their objective, and rarely are they those whom hide such. You can read a charismatic person like a book, but because they have little fear of or conviction for their personality, it is indeed a strength of person. Of course, this too is attractive to certain people, and to others, it is not.

If you want to be secretive, shy, or misunderstood, or not in the spotlight, in my opinion, don't invest too much in Charisma. You will garner attention regardless of your CHA score, as these can be affections brought on by other various attributes or circumstances of your character. Fame or intrigue does not also come with Charisma. But the Charismatic character enters the room and takes command of it loudly, sometimes this even irritates people.

I am totally detached in thinking that Charisma counts for physical beauty at all. I don't buy it. The only ones who I would say are entirely unbeautiful would be a character who's points have no attribute whatsoever: like 10s or under across the board. AKA, a basic bitch.

Basic bitches are basically commoners. They wear running shoes and blue jeans and a t-shirt. They have a haircut and have no dreams at all. You can go around assuming everyone is a basic bitch until they show some sort of extraordinary, not even that, but some kind of interesting characteristic. Maybe they have like a bird-like nose, at least that's something, but you can say, they're still just a basic bitch with an interesting nose. Charismatic characters with basic bitch attributes can be deceiving! At first glance you're like, yeah, a basic bitch, but then they may start talking wildly about how they are working on a cause alone in their own capacity at this day in history to re approach food shortages in impoverished city sections by going door to door and gathering food to a truck that is being carted over to ghetto to feed ghetto children. At this point, you may say to yourself, this is not a basic bitch and I think his nose is a bit sexier as well as his haircut. Or you may say, who does this guy think he is!?

So yeah. Charisma is the ability to convey your spirit, not your sexiness.

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MuseReader: Aiseth Nosdivan- Master Enchantress

Overall, charisma is that special charm, or that special appeal that causes people to feel attracted, pulled towards or excited by someone. That for me is the central aspect of the charisma stat in D&D.

I imagine a stat like charisma to have a vast number of sub-stats. One of these can be physical attractiveness, but it does not have to be. The physical attractiveness of the charisma stat is also not on the level of our individual preferences, but the sub-level that we more unconciously find attractive. For instance, physical attractiveness has a few underlying rules. The semetry of the face is very important to us. When the proportions of the face reflect the golden ratio, the person is generally more physically appealing to us than someone where this is not the case. I would say that charisma could also play a significant role in these aspects.

But it is on the sublevel before our individual and cultural preferences apply. A charismatic person will still be charismatic in a foreign world of his own species, even if the conventional cultural standards (like cultural beauty standards) are different.

Now, characters being a combination of their stats and individuals having certain specific preferences, this is only a part of what would make someone attractive for us. Someone can have the golden ratio, having these indicators of what we find beautiful, without being incredibly attractive for us personally because they are not our "type" or lack appropriate representation in other stats we place personal value in. This is where strength or intelligence comes in, or other preferences like prefering smaller breasts over larger breasts, age, a preference towards scars, hair color, style, menality, etc, etc.

But regardless if the 24 charisma character in front of you is someone you like or personally find to be your type or not, they have that special something that is almost magnetic to their peers. Often these individuals have a face you can not help see beauty in, even if they are definetly not your prefered type and as a complete package they do not cause that spark. Other times, they just have a voice or a way they carry themselves that they can with ease demand the attention of a whole room.

I think Pony said it very well. Attractiveness is but a small subset of what Charisma is. Charisma, after all, works on all genders and species -- it has an effect even on the asexual.

Charisma is the inherent force of character that makes you "likeable." I think we've all had that friend who, while not all that attractive (or perhaps incredibly so!) or all that intelligent (perhaps quite so!) - in spite of being "just another human being," like the rest of us - seems like they just can't lose at anything. They get the girlfriend they want. They win class president. They get the solid job with benefits. They are offered that promotion early. Everyone loves them -- clients, friends, family, they just have a personality that allows them to get along with anyone and everyone. People feel drawn to them on a subconscious, almost inexplicable level.

Sometimes that person is just fortunate. But, if the pattern remains, they're not just lucky any more. I would argue that they are incredibly charismatic (perhaps in conjunction with other traits, but primarily because of the statistic we're discussing).

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

[quote="Righteous Anger"]I think Pony said it very well. Attractiveness is but a small subset of what Charisma is. Charisma, after all, works on all genders and species -- it has an effect even on the asexual.
[quote]


but it is still a subset, you can be very charismatic as a ugly person, but according to the PHB you cant be pretty without high charisma, and no I dont think the +2 -2 idea that has been sported so many times applies, this is not skills and (crap i forgot the rest of that 2d book) where you can split up a stat.

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I have a character with 6 charisma. He's a dick, and has scales and fangs and everything. Yet the strangest people seem to like him. I don't understand it at all.

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Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!

Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!

Charisma is a stat that works when dealing with DM controlled instances, kind of the same vein as social skills, but when it comes to player-to-player interaction you either have it or you don't, you can try to show something in RP but ultimately it is the eye of the beholder that determines where they set you in their idea of the world.

There are countless examples of ugly, crass and downright nasty characters that are widely enjoyed and engaged. I bet some of them even have high charisma scores to match that natural draw. But some of 'em just have low charisma and still find people sticking around, be it the way they handle themselves or their connections to other players.

And on the flip side there are high charisma characters who few find engaging or appealing.

But if being Charismatic and magnetic is something you want to do, the old statement: "Fake it 'till you make it" rings true, seriously.

Simply put, Charisma holds no sway in PC v PC interactions, just as social skills don't, but it could be worth exploring in roleplay with DM/NPCs.

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bad man

I factor in bard charisma, if the character is a truly RPed bard... But yeah that's about it. Then again Sam hates paladins so that's just personal bias.

In the same line of thinking, some people choose to hate charismatic people.

In my experience, my abrasive, obnoxious, anti-social, and other expressions of low Charisma characters have drawn way more attention, been sought out for socialization, and generally reacted to as if being charismatic moreso than characters I RP as actually having higher than average Charisma. Which is usually just being more smoothed around the edges in social skills, not grabbing their crotches or spitting on people, more gregarious, outwardly empathetic (if Good), comfortable in leadership roles, etc.

I dunno if it's an inherently rebelliousness of us players, or what. I tend to like playing low Charisma on my characters because I find it more interesting to play, and kind of cathartic. I do a lot of charisma schmoozing or general getting-along in my own public social life, so it's nice to cut loose and be a vapid cunt, cagey weirdo, or something else when I'm writing a fiction. It may be that people find it more interesting to play with, as well, and so they end up having that sort of quiet, introverted 'Charisma' due to these reactions to them.

Anyway, if I know what someone's Charisma is, I try to factor it in and make it polarize my character's reactions to them. Kierenis, for instance, was drawn to high Charisma characters. After the initial allure, it was up to their actual personality to shape her view of them, but she was generally more likely to overlook issues and support their ideas if they didn't chafe with her. High Charisma characters that did chafe her tended to do so much worse than low Charisma characters, essentially because the ones with high Charisma made a much bigger and lasting impression.

I've noticed the same thing. I think the reason those kinds of characters can be appealing is because they buck the social norm. They are not afraid of social consequences, not afraid to say "no", not afraid to get in your face a little bit, and are able to just do what's in their best interest because of it. Unfortunately they can be really rude and selfish (not suggesting your characters are specifically - I don't know them ), as a general observation. What's really great, imo, is when you can find the perfect blend. A character who is not so empathetic that they bend to everyone's wills, enjoys bucking social trends to stand up for their own voice, but also recognizes the needs and emotions of others, and is capable of real compassion. THAT is charisma, if you ask me.

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Also, Aiseth, I really loved your post! I almost choked when I read 'basic bitch', but then you started talking about it in the form of a he, and all was forgiven.

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