As it was noticed that there is no longer a green tint to my forum name, and this was brought up in the topic, I just want to say two things before I bow out of this topic and leave it to others to boldly tilt the windmill. I do this primarily because I do not want the speculation and gossip about my resignation to damage the community, and the discussion to continue on the merits.

The first is, that while the DM Team and a select few of the Dev Team know of the reason(s) that I felt it was time for me to resign and take a break, I do not intend to comment on it publically. It is because I do not feel it would improve the situation and just heat a discussion beyond reason. I ask you to respect that. I very much hope a working solution will be found for you guys, and that Amia will continue to be a place of great enjoyment. I very much want it to succeed and stick around for years to come. Whatever outcome, I am sure Amia will survive it.

The second, please do not begin to vilify the DMs. I very much believe calling them out on issues and giving them passionate (but reasonably polite) feedback is essential for the health of this server. As is them being able to take criticism and feedback for what it is: passionate players caring about their passion of roleplay, not something to be ignored or cracked down upon. The passion shows people care about and love this server. Even the DMs I here obviously and perhaps tenaciously disagree with, those I have come to know I really like and respect as people and I am very confident they do have the best interest of the server in mind. Even if I think this time they are very wrong about what is best here, and on other issues.

They do tons of work, I owe them so much of my enjoyment over the years, they have contributed greatly to the stories that I have had the pleasure to be a part of, and hence I will continue to be thankful to them. With that, you have my last two pieces of copper on this issue.

I'll bow out, too.

Which is great news!



This however notes that such are under the review.

Its not the concern of pulling them and characters that doesnt make any sense lorewise is completely valid, Understandable. The concern is changing their lore or changes to their personality or traits and having the possibility of having them declined via the new re-requesting rules.

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"The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"

Sevent Heaven, I am not following you here Did we say we are forcing people to re-request their backgrounds?

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

As someone who puts in an average of 40 hours work per month into the design and development of this server I think I have a stake in what's being said here and I would like to submit a thought or two...

The opening post merely restates the rules that already exist because we've seen recent cases that have strayed away from them. I'll try to be vague enough to not finger specific people but some examples are Lawful Good Palemasters who hang out in Tarkuul, Evil Aasimar who pal around with undead, even a well known character by name and bio from a well known series (equivalent to Drizzt). It is because we don't want to make people retcon the RP they've done or make them stop playing the character all together that we posted a reminder of these rules.

If there are any issues that come up with a particular character (which I don't really anticipate) then I am sure we can all come together in a calm manner and resolve them in a way that is acceptable to everyone involved.

Those of you that think the DM team is attempting to pull characters that have been played for years really need to back off and calm down. It's not about that. It's about moving forward and taking a proactive measure to prevent disappointment.

Not definately to the letter, but the quote insinuates that perhaps the older characters would have to be re requested that had developed homebrew in any shape but it was accepted by the playerbase with DM's overwatching them at events.



Those two points there Silkelock insinuate my reasoning behind it, I appreciate that it is in discussion but it seems to lean towards what I have said myself, Judging by the intitial content of the post. It would seem the case.

I will bow out from this myself, I've said my points that I would like to. I honestly hope that the team takes feedback by all players posts, Also by all means, Mine are as not as constructive, but im damn passionate.

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"The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"

That's good to hear, Hudson. The above quoted section from BurningoutBright is what had me sweating bullets knowing that my PC is a little out of the ordinary for the Forgotten Realms.

Yes, but it more specifically is referring to characters that have been made in the past weeks and months. Anything older than that is really going to be someone who is reviving a character that hasn't been played in literal years and years, which isn't exactly an everyday occurrence.

Yoss you should know that if the team had an issue with your PC you'd have already been made aware of it

Unless you are suddenly playing him as a vampire sparkling in the sun or a celestial who wants to marry Asmodeus you're good.

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BUT THE HONEYMOON WAS ALL PLANNED AND EVERYTHING

*pat pat and gives a lollipop*

But yeah, we do not ask all grandfathered charas to now suddenly make a request for the chara they played for years. Nor to suddenly change it or let alone to take it away completely. Exceptions can always happen in extreme cases. But it would need to be some quite serious issue for us to step in.

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Thats reassuring, It just helps keep the servers history characterwise a lot more unique.



That made me laugh out loud. Fair play.

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"The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"

Well, that is reassuring to hear, yeah. That was rather heavily implied yesterday, which is a primary reason a lot of people got rather concerned. (Also, really glad more of you guys are getting into this, it's encouraging. <3)

This does raise a question, though, that's still nagging at me even after I wrote my previous wall of text about it, and I've yet to see anyone really acknowledge it much. I'd love to know the staff's thoughts on it.

Where is the server going from here, in general? Like I said in my post on the last page of replies, I keep getting really conflicting answers about this, including from members of the DM team. Some point to the rules, which very clearly emphasize a relaxed playing environment that respects everyone's creativity, writing styles, roleplaying ability and the like, while others speak passionately about wanting to enforce a standard of roleplay that everyone's expected to live up to. These two things kind of conflict with one another, in many cases, and I'm really curious as to what direction the server's going.

I'm not going to say one or the other is right. Personally, from what I hear, the former is what Amia was founded on with its roots, and it's what a lot of people in this community really love and appreciate. And, I'll admit, that unique focus is why I stuck around, as I said previously. The more universal, "You must be of this quality, or play this way, or do this thing" sort of approach is much more common, as seen on servers like Ravenloft and Arelith. And, while it does appeal to certain people, I'll be the first to say that it's oftentimes really stressful and... kind of boring.

Amia's openness is a stark contrast to all of that. Or, it has been, so far. I'm just curious as to whether the team wants to stick to those roots, or plan to take the server in another direction. And I keep getting different answers about it depending on who I ask.

Some clarification, or at least agreement with each other, would be appreciated in this matter. I know I'm not the only one who desires such, as other people in this very thread have asked the same.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

I think that answers your question Tyrak.

And yes... unfortunately it has to be said because we get these.

I think that this ruling is fine, as long as the players do not have to sweat over the requests, as others stated before. In fact I like that this is written down properly for the sake of clarification.

The world is persistent and dynamic. It goes where the characters and plots take it day by day.

This whole thing was about keeping a higher standard on what the world is filled with. To improve immersion, and prevent -future- issues.

A PRC request for me is as simple as asking if you can and what book you found it in,showing you understand the class. Majority of them are all within reason, some are obviously super powerful and you would be informed of such as you mention them.

The largest thing is just to have something saved, indexed, and documented on all the new out of the norm characters so that when I or any other team members leave the server, we have it written in its own special forum this is what was approved according to these terms.

These will also be backed up, in the chance we face another hacking and lose these records. Once indexed in a forum of its own, myself and others on the team can entirely export the forum to a file with all the approved specials.

This is especially important as we recently have been faced with multiple things that were approved but lost in the hack, or they were never documented as approved, or they never were approved and they are got by under the radar.

This is a tedious effort to become more organized as we have failed to do in the last 8 years. All so we can keep records to cover everyone's butt in the future should anything happen.

That's what's going on, there is nothing hidden between the lines on my post here or even the original. We simply wish to know what you guys have so new staff, or old, do not have the abrupt issue on your characters and left to point that there is no history of it being kosher.

As to how it benefits? We may have events or plots that would need one of these special PRCs, or specific special noble background. Now rather than me making an NPC, I can look to my list of players who have what I am looking for an send you that PM saying I need you for this thing I am working on, interested?

Keep cool guys, I'm at work and this probably will be my only lengthy post.

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That sounds reasonable, I've read through some of the PRCs and it seems standard format is understanding the PRC then it gets approved, Then the mechanical benefits is what needs to be requested because its different from vanilla nwn.

My concern is that with those characters that emulate PRC's out there that can work within mechanics, Is it simply a matter of quoting the sourcebook and get PnP permission? (Psionics etc etc not allowed which is stated in rules) Or is it making a request for the PRC and then they get to use said abilitys?

Saying that, Does that mean with Mages,Clerics,Sorcs. With any non mechanic NWN does that mean that PnP spells have to be requested in the requests area for the character to use even if its a non prc spell or ability?



Is there a possibility to write up whats enabled PnP wise, What the pre req's are? And what can be used before requests so it creates that clarity? If these rules are to come in it would be nice for players to have a guide, Perhaps also having an example PRC of a PC if someone would be happy to leave it publicly, Endorse the individuality.



Thats a neat idea, Its also nice to see each DM giving their own opinion in as opposed to one DM speaking for all, A lot has been clarified by each individual which is nice to see.

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"The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"

Alright, it took me a bit of time to read everything that happened after I ducked for a bit, but I read it three times to make sure I do not miss anyone. I believe that everyone should listen to Amarice, Hudson and Letum (and the other DMs that posted here) because they looked at ti with fresh eyes, and said what I was meaning to say before I got burdened with trying to address specifics.

But, so you can hear it from me too (again, in some cases):

No one is going to take away your grandfathered characters.

No one is going to come in and demand they change their personalities.

For ones that are way off, we may talk to you on how to fix it. But this is the extreme of the extreme. I outright apologize if I scared some people into worrying and fretting over their characters.

No one needs to re-request anything. I just want to know of their existence, so we can document it. See Amarice's post about no documentation and grandfathering abuse. This does not apply to most of you. But it frankly needs to be said, since this is a general topic explaining something we have been already doing for some time.

I think requests need an overhaul, and after some discussion with another DM, I agree that our standards are too high and too daunting, and it isn't fair. Not to mention it is outright discouraging to not receive any feedback, and I take responsibility in not responding as often as I should (like, right when I see it, instead of filing in my "I'll do it when I have time" mental folder.) It breaks my heart to see people afraid to request anything, and I'll be taking that to heart. (If I made a gmail account just for people to send me their requests, to get help on or feedback, and promised to check it at least once a week, would that help and/or relieve some anxiety?)

I agree with Pony that support for our players needs to happen, and make things less daunting and harsh when it comes to standards. I'm starting to see the other half, where it is absolutely difficult for people to see what they need to do to get a request approved, and it was something that always befuddled me before. I'm starting to understand, now, and I empathize more than I ever did before.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

And yes, thank you for the other staff members chiming in and explaining things differently than I have. You're all wonderful, and I'm glad their ways of explaining it are making more sense and soothing some fears I may have unintentionally stirred.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

There is sadly so many pnp things out there, I learn new ones everyday. I can not realistically say that we can make a list of what is approved. People do ask, thank you, about certain ones and it's crazy some of the stuff I never seen before and how awesome they are. If more people could do that, just ask about this cool PRC, spell, etc and share it with myself or other DMs, it let's us learn some new stuff as well.

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I wont lie I skipped most of the thread as it was super long!

But I will say that the biggest problem I think most people have is all the unwritten rules/different DM=different ruling over the years. ( and I mean that that its a problem more people will likely encounter)
Some of the old folks know what I'm talking about in the days when a DM made a ruling in game, and it was only passed on and spread by word of mouth as the official rule and we all have played the game broken telephone before....we know what happens with word of mouth, and then over the years new DMs come into play and change the unwritten(or it got broken telephoned), but forgot to write it down still and then we have a clash of who is correct, or why they changed it.

As a example I will use the notion that non-druid shifters can "only" take 5 druid levels, that I believe is a case of broken telephone rule passing that some how made itself as a rule, it was not that way for a number of reasons.

1.Druid levels effect Shifter form powers such as CL and duration.
2.Pre epic level limit of 10shifter (with the 5 druid base) forces a pure shape shifter to pick 5 levels in something else before they can start taking shifter again, with a 5 druid level limit, it forces them to have reduced abilities in form as stated on #1
3. Feats gained from 6-10 druid are negligible and did not pose any real mechanical imbalance (They gain extra uses of wild shape that we gain anyway with increased shifter level) They do gain venom immunity at 9 druid but I don't think the team viewed immune to poisons as a problem given you have at least 9 ghost levels
((On top of the already non-druid no Druid Spellbook ,pet ,OOC only items....ect ))


I thought along time ago a DM was going over and doing a overhaul with the unwritten rules where players posted a question/rule and then the DM was going to make a answer thread for the current/correct ruling?

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Thats fair enough, I was thinking more in the line of certain cleric or mage spells or abilities that give an effect roleplay wise, But perhaps give "Blanket approval" over books like "Tome and Blood Wizards and Sorcerers" which is a 3.5 sourcebook, but an example could be this...



Things like that for example that could be used.

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"The Skin is your costume, The Stage is The Enviroment!"

Just a few notes. Please drink water, it might be salty.

1) Requests in general are something that feels more like a popularity contest and how much you've spoken on Skype to people about your ideas.
2) Why Dragons, Devils, Erinyes, whatever else are allowed but vampires? Actual playable race with dozens of PC reference pages in multiple D&D versions and tons of lore? Further; why 7-2 = no and 6-5 = yes? Inconsistencies about everywhere in the request forum, and it does most certainly feel clique-y and popularity contest driven.
3) Why people are afraid of redoing the PvP system rules when the system is so bad that nobody uses it anymore.
4) Why we're focusing on balancing things when overall. Some of the changes are alright, but most have removed fun from the game. What we could be focusing on instead, are scripts that would make NPC's that look alive, dialogue and content that makes this actually seem like it's a RP server, not a MMO.
5) Why we're so restrictive of monster races at creation, when we allow ogres, kobolds, goblins, whatever the hell into most towns, no questions asked. The lore is already flying backwards and spinning in circles. Maybe not a full split, but the consistency thing comes up again for me.
6) Everything on Amia needs a DM. But only one DM controls one area. So you either Skype them or it doesn't get done. Not fun. Not fun for the DM.
7) From an outside perspective, the DM staff has had to assume a hall monitor role, adopting reasons to deny someone something, rather than trying to think of a way to incorporate an idea and create a story. I feel like the entire role of DM'ing isn't about running adventures or having fun, but making sure someone doesn't get pissed off. Until this climate changes, it's more like a job than a game to me.

Real life is like a curve of happiness and sadness. Amia is like a straight line. And that sure isn't healthy.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Although I understand the intent, none of the various explanations have changed the feeling I now have as a player. Which is that I'm now being asked to submit to a full body cavity search before ordering my double decaff latte. As a player, have I committed an RP crime of some sort? Apparently...

Submitting a request for anything I do as a player would be great if my masters degree was in creative writing and I didn't play an online RPG to not have to deal with real people for a while. I don't imagine myself as a completely non-creative individual, but writing a request to "qualify" to interact with other people is basically the same to me as "no, go away."

So, while I may continue to lurk about, I got the message.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

1) Admittedly, some overhaul could go into the Request system, but at the same time given some of the things that have been requested mechanically and not, there needs to be a system in place still I feel (but, one that more encourages and aids rather than simply refuses).

2) A lot of the examples you probably think of were pre-request system Amia , where things were a lot looser and didn't quite work as readily in the system of Lore which the setting of Amia is located in, (Faerun). Though as well, Vampires above all of those have major rules issues and difficulties with the environs of the island where the wrong move turns them into ash (Yay sun)

3) The PvP system rules I admit could probably be overhauled.. there has been a large number of issues in the past , but I imagine in doing so.

*No effectual answer for 4 honestly, so I will have to leave that aside*

5) Admittedly, this is an issue which kinda makes me scratch my head head too so I can't offer a solid answer, but I do agree it's something to consider for the future.

6) Not everything needs a DM, admittedly a good chunk of things where you might be trying to bring change to an area could stand to have a DM's involvement. But, in lieu of that for simpler stuff, you might be able to simply Roleplay and take screenies to send to a DM. ((I've had to do that a fair bit for spell requests and similar research. )). The primary City Handling DM generally has a good grasp of all going on IN That city which is why they prefer it that way, but in a pinch you could probably pass a message along at the least and see what happens, though from my understanding a number of the cities these days have two DMs.

7) I believe a DM's job is both in all earnest honesty, given the audience we have on Amia. From my perspective yes a DM's first job is to tell stories and create a living world , but in the case of this server they must also do their best to ensure the fun for as many a possible.

Couldn't have said it better.

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Hork the Ork - Barbarian Ogrillion. [ac]
June Lucaus - Division One Marksmen.

Available RP Times : Weekdays [4:30 PM - 10:30 PM]
Weekends [10:00 AM - whenever.]

[/ac]

2) I didn't ask for immortality, even presented several alternatives of sunlight death and offered to let people report/undo my transformation if I was found to do something stupid. Vampire mechanics actually suggest they have a valid reason to return (i.e. gaseous form to coffin), while outsiders simply don't even have a reason to be on prime (Tome of Magic). Dragons don't have a reason to be in society (Draconomicon). Ogres, Goblins, Kobolds, etc etc don't usually ask people for help in a human city town square (Common Sense).

I asked for a chance to roleplay something I'm very familiar and confident with, on a character I spent over 2 years preparing the roleplay for, involving many people including DM's into the story. An idea that I looked forward to at the time (no, not a sparkling Bella), but rather a continuing protagonist of evil. This character was also one who was leading one of the only truly open evil factions. In a system where I can be revoked of a special class if I do something stupid with a push of a button, why do I have to wait 2 years to be told "no, after countless things you've done, a 7 yes 2 no vote, we still don't even want to give you a chance."

I'm not even sure I want the same thing anymore, but what I do know, is that until something other than explanations change, the server is exactly where I left it.

6) Maybe not everything, but when you're faction leader, it more or less does. Most everything else is mechanically automatic RP, it feels.

7) The DM's job in my view is to tell a story. How someone OOCly feels about that story is their problem. Too much do I see stories change because of OOC bitching.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Well, overall, after reading all of the latest replies and the like, I'm... reasonably (but tentatively) comforted. I won't ramble any more about concerns of the server's direction in general, or anything of that matter. At least, not for the moment. I really do hope we continue to remember our roots, because they seem like pretty cool roots, but I take hope in the fact that others seem feel the same way.

I'll also reiterate that, yeah, a standard is necessary. But the real key is to know how much of one to uphold, and where the bar should be set. I'm hoping that you guys on staff will be willing and able to keep it at a level that maximizes player freedom while also moderating the occasional outlier of ridiculousness (half-balor war-kings from homebrew kingdoms etc), but not letting those outliers dictate policy.

It's the same issue that came up in the recent discussion on the ECL limit and powergamers, and I think pretty much everyone agreed that it wasn't right for us to deny change that due to the "outliers" in that situation, either. So. Case in point.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

I would, however, like to ask a question real quick regarding the need to let the team know about backgrounds that include "homebrew" origins. Specifically, what that entails. The section on such in the original post read as follows:


This does seem a little bit vague, to me, and I feel like it leaves out a few important things that should be considered. In many different kinds of backgrounds, a bit of homebrew is actually completely necessary, simply due to a lack of any appropriate lore to draw from. With different kinds of characters from many different areas, there may not actually be any kind of source material to use for details in the backstory, and one has to make up some things in order to get a really fleshed-out background. What immediately comes to mind are lands of origin that lack details on specific settlements and the like. For example, if one is from, say, the Sword Coast, you've got a plethora of locations to originate from, big and small. But, if you make a character from a land like Chult or Eastern Shaar? You're not really going to have any specific towns to cite. You've gotta use some creativity there. It's expected.


I'm going to use a very real example that comes to mind, which I happen to know very well: Kobold PCs. Yay.

Kobolds have a good amount of lore. There's a whole kobold lore thread, in fact, courtesy of our dear Letum, that documents a lot of it. As you can see in that thread, there's information on all sorts of details, including biology, society, how their warrens work and are formed, and all of that. It's really nice, actually. You can do a lot with that.

But one thing that is totally absent, and for good reason, is the existence of any "canon" kobold tribes or warrens where you could originate from. There is a grand total of one official, Forgotten Realms lore-based kobold warren that a kobold PC could originate from, and that is Iejirokarthel, which is really meant to be more of a sample lair than anything. (I don't believe its location in the world is even listed.) If you want to extend this to Amian canon, then you get a couple of extra options. And I do mean "a couple" as in "literally two, and a player faction". Needless to say, these options are a little bit limited.

But kobold tribes are all over the damn place, they're like vermin. Adventurer bait. There just aren't any specific ones listed on sources like the Faerunian Atlas or anything. You're expected to come up with your own, and most of our faction members have. One of the PCs originates from some small tribe near Cormyr, another from the Underdark, another from an extinct tribe in an unsaid location... Et cetera. It's common practice, you're supposed to get creative.

But, technically, this is in breach of the original post's segment on "homebrew" lore, because this would be a homebrew location and culture to originate from. By these current definitions, almost every single kobold PC on the server would need to get their backstory approved, despite not having anything particularly special about it. The same goes for most any PC that happens to be a goblin, an orc, or anything else of that nature that wouldn't have specific, canon-based settlements to draw from.

So, I'm just curious. How does this new written policy relate to that? Do we need to start sending mass-backstories and telling every single new kobold-player to do the same, or can this be addressed in another way?

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

So.. I'll toss in my two cents.

I've had a lot of the same concerns about the direction of the server and the interactions between the DM Team and playerbase for a while now. I've actually typed out huge, rambling OPs for threads on the topic a few times over the past few months, but decided against posting them because, as this whole blow up has proven, it's like walking into a mine field where the mines are the feelings of other members of the community.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to say that the current, apparently much more serious, direction of the server is something the DM Team came up with on their own. I've noticed a trend in the playerbase toward greater consequences, stricter lore, and a greater focus on' serious' role play.

As one of the older players on the server, I fondly remember the time where Amia was full of unique, over the top characters like Mynna the sentient golem, Mander the Mad, Roselfusio Kross(the poetic dracolich), the Ve'heer devils, the Shadowflame dragons, Pony's half frost giant Sharina,.... Cluckzilla?!

Anyway. As a player that fell in love with Amia in the 'old days' when things were a little more open and a lot more crazy, I can't say that it doesn't sadden me to see how serious the attitudes have become over the years. It wasn't all peaches and rainbows back then either, but I always felt like I was logging in to play with friends who wanted to have fun as much as I did and who, because I had no idea how to RP when I first got to Amia(and I'm still very bad at it), were very patient with me as I was figuring things out.


I think a lot of people feel like their characters can't have any impact on the story we've been writing together for over a decade unless they treat roleplaying like a full time job in creative writing.

I find it a little ironic that I am breaking my hiatus to weigh in on some of the very issues that sparked it. Ironic, but probably appropriate. I am choosing to be frank because nothing is fixed by patting ourselves on the back(players and DM's alike) and saying “we all had very good intentions” as our ship continues to sink.

I do not think this rule improves anything, despite whatever good intentions the current team may have for seeking it. We do not attract new players by narrowing the gate through which they might enter. We have seldom retained players by shrinking the space in which they might comfortably work. Instead, we merely squeeze out many we already had and alienate the ones that remain. That is what has happened; the playerbase is voting with their feet and our numbers reflect it. So while the team may feel this is ensuring the quality of the server, and maybe by pure distillation it will, it obviously does not appear aligned with the reasons most players are choosing to hang around.

I'm a more than a little off-put by the notion that grandfathering somehow smooths over the issue. Does anyone really want to take it upon themselves why older players are not subject to this new same scrutiny? Because I certainly wouldn't. We have literally hundreds of characters that, should they come back, will not have been subject to this new requesting of things. Were I a new player, I would feel like there wasn't much purpose to this beyond to say, somewhat wordlessly, I'm not trusted to be up to snuff as much as these older players were. Instead, it would seem to me like I was being pushed not to go out on these same limbs that these people went out on just fine, because either a) I'm not good enough to fit new spins into this world on my own or b) these older characters are jokes, but it's cool because the DMs already know them.

Solution: Take a step back from this continuous trend of "tightening the reigns" under the banner of higher quality. It's really that simple. I'm not trying to devalue the discussion and care that I have to assume the team has had on this by themselves, but apparently you're not hearing the voices you need to hear. Or at worst, you're listening, but have silently and maybe unconsciously agreed that the team's opinions are correct a priori and the issues of the players must be matched to that. I think a lot of us would feel better if changes were made after we, as players, voice an opinion, rather than simply being consoled in the wake of it. Or more wishfully, to be consulted before something like this ever hits the books.

_________________

I'm splitting my post, so the topic at hand and my own opinion on what lies at the root of it all can be parsed.



If I could be bothered to go back through my PM's over maybe the past 3 years, I could find each one of these issues paraphrased, forewarned, or cautioned, but I was made to feel like the odd man out in mentioning. In leaving Amia for the past few months, I accepted them as symptomatic of what is becoming a life-threatening illness for the server. The key issues that keep me away from Amia today are just what is said and just what is behind this new rule, the responses to it, and the apparent DM disconnect with those responses. It all boils down to something one of our retired DM's brought up many moons ago: good faith.

The Team claims that grandfathered characters will be fine, yet Pony and I both have examples of being forced to change aspects of our own characters long before this was even a written rule. How are we to have faith in the limited scope of this rule, when actions have long ago proved otherwise? The first time I was asked to change something previously approved by a DM team, maybe 3 years ago, I wrote it off as well-meaning. The second time, involving the same request, I understood it as a sea-change in opinion. The third time I was asked, over the mere mention of this same request, I said screw it. Why bother trying to continue my own story when it's constantly beholden to a third party? I actively avoided DM's, their characters, and requesting anything because, like Pony, I had no faith that what I had built over a decade of playing would be respected. In fact, I was damn scared more would be pulled away from it. Even if it was respected, this respect seemed bound to change over the course of a few years, so it was indeed temporary at best.

So when I come back to see this current trend that Nat points out (“our server,” “we steer the ship,” “benevolent dictatorship”), I don't feel at all bad for stepping away. In fact, I feel like I got out and just the right time to preserve my memories and image of the server, and that hurts me like hell to say, but it's true. As long as players continue to feel like they are just along for the ride in story, in policy change, in the decisions that affect their enjoyment of the game first and the job of the DM's second, there will continue to be an unspoken “us vs them” air about all of us, by default. Until occasionally logging back on to the forum doesn't reaffirm me of the very reasons I left, I can't find myself investing time or effort in the server like I used to.

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I hope I don't get crucified for saying it, but I fully resonate with Dark Immolation's second post on this topic.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

I have to admit I immediately regretted ending with that joke because I feared it would be taken entirely out of context and make my post appear to say something it does not.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

And that's why you didn't get nominated for Funniest Poster.

I am at a loss at what to say. I still feel it really doesn't matter what I say, as player opinions still seem to matter little. In my on and off hiatus over the past year I find myself seriously disconnected from how Amia is currently run. The atmosphere just seems ... different from what I used to know and love.

I have a sad.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Do speak up, if their are issues. Either here or in private to one of us on the team. I would much rather you speak your mind and we can attempt to resolve things than leave you (any of you) discontent about things if possible.

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

Naiv, from the looks of it, the Team has conceded that the presentation of this information and the follow up to it was not as clear as they would have liked it to be. The further attempt to micromanage the discussion and prevent the players from asking questions (that is what it seemed like for sure) was an additional blunder because the playerbase is going to have questions and we deserve answers. I do not know that I detect malice, but perhaps there are some old adages and beliefs the team clung to in my day that maybe are due for some reassessment. The playerbase itself is different now and I hope the DMs see it. There was a big kind of "pact" that was unofficially made between the staff and the players right before I left - a thread I referenced when mentioning that I felt awful for BoB having to suffer the slings and arrows alone and why I (slyly or perhaps not so slyly) tried to guilt them into backing her up.

I do not recall the finer points but my feelings have been that the players have held up their end of the bargain and have overall been happier, more supportive, and more willing to cut a break. The team is more or less on that but I think they were exhausted cleaning up the tragic mess of my megaplot and now that they have some breathing room in the wake of that may be having some growing pains.

This is of course all speculation but I like to tell myself I can read between the lines in things.

Naiv, the team looks to be saying they are poised to make things better for us so the estate thing to do is openly put that to the test in whatever way you see fit. It is your server as much as it is mine, and if that isn't true we will see it come to be so when their benevolent dictatorship is tested.

I day that with a faint hint of irony, as the phrase backfired something awful. I would be kicking myself for using it, had it been me.

Personally I'm well in line with the rules. The times I've seen unusually unique characters played, they've still rarely measured up to my personal standards of what those characters should portray. Does this make me sound like an elitist pedant? Yes. But I'm being honest.

I much prefer worlds where people are given less to make more; where interesting characters are crafted independently of their chosen race, heritage, class. I get suspicious when I come across those unusual characters: why was it so necessary to add a special class or background to this personality, who could have crafted something just as remarkable through their own endeavour without needing something unusual on their character sheet?

I've seen a lot of surface-friendly Underdarkers, monstrous humanoids, celestial/infernal bloods and undead of varying degrees because of my long career here on the server, and I've played these characters myself, but my tastes have changed too.

These days I prefer the company of those who do less with more; who stand out from amongst the crowd because they craft something beautiful out of relatively little; who immerse me in the world by feeling like a plausible part of it. I'd never dream of dictating how others play since I clearly enjoy the server and its diversity a lot (hence my repeated returns), but I get far more enjoyment from interacting with those who reinforce the rule rather than the exception: who make me believe they're a Forgotten Realms adventurer rather than the thrice-blessed celestial son of the Triad, or the Devil-Cursed Demon Fire-Wizard Death Metal Rockstar of Asmodeus; who craft the extraordinary from the relatively everyday.

I've long since accepted that my taste is different from the norm (read: I'm a fickle and contrarian so-and-so) therefore I'm hardly expecting anything to come of my input, but I still think it's worth presenting my view for the sake of awareness. Thanks for reading, take it easy.

I tried writing a post for this thread.

The first block I met was never having any of the above concern me too much. I have a very "Ignorance Is Bliss" life style. Shameful I know. Shoot me.

The second was that when I did try to pull up the only thing that concerns this thread was my request for my Avaril, that was out of the ordinary for avaril, thus was declined. Which initially set me down from ever wanting to request anything again. Especially seeing an Avaril get approved very soon after. I have nothing against the toon, but for their sake of being comfortable, I won't say names. I however, felt quite damn downtrodden just because my request was "A little too different". Now I get the feeling it's more so that the character was evil. This current team denies it, but it doesn't like evil. I know this because there's no lasting evil faction. None at all with DM backing.

Moving on.
Then I requested something I knew would have as much chance as a blind man peeing through a polo, it was a private request, a Stinger. I was quite excited to play this monster race as I enjoy its lore, even if there's not much. After that, I don't want to request a character again. I'm sticking to the subraces specified, purely because I don't like that rejection after putting a lot of time and effort into pleasing the team with something I might just have fun with. Then being stomped on because you guys don't like it.

Lastly, more recently.
My friend requested a concept that was again: Different. A word I'm getting the feeling the team is trying to shy away from on this "Loose" server. As stated above, the request forum was once somewhat fun to look through, to see what cool ideas shaped in some of the minds here. Now? You guys stepped out a lore friendly character because you didn't like it. There was one DM that pushed for compromise and gave feedback that me and others thought was fair. That toon eventually got accepted. However. It's not even what they wanted in the first place. They lost a lot of the key things the player wanted. That player's reluctant to even log onto it now because it isn't their concept. What's worse? That player thinks you guys don't like them, victimised even. That's -wrong-.
Sorry for the mention, but it's a plain example. You know who you are.

Another request I saw denied due to this excuse, which if I quoted would be way too long, but I summarise it with "There's no lore behind that dungeon to fit that." Okay. So why isn't there lore? This is an RP server, with dungeons that are there purely for the grind? Your job's to make the lore for the setting we're in. Don't give us that excuse. Leading to the argument "It's not our job, we're not paid for it." No, you don't get paid for it, but you accepted that responsibility when you became a Dungeon Master of Amia. The rest of the reasons: "I'm not comfortable." "I don't like it." That request went from being a yes to a no in less than a week. How do you think the player felt after that when requesting more things? They told me, and they were disheartened, regardless of your "You wrote it well." and your pats on the back. Ever been told you can have something by mom or dad from the store, get there and they changed their mind kinda shitty right?


Now believe me, I hate sounding like an ass. Bluntly put. The team needs to stop with this excuse that's "This isn't what we want on the server". That's a crap excuse. This isn't your server. This is all of our server, the players want to have fun here too. So I beg you. Quit the excuses just because you don't like the concept. If it fits lore, then what grounds do you have to stop it other than authority getting to your head? I understand there's a line that needs to be drawn to stop ridiculous things getting through, but a Pale Master Avaril is by no means on the level of vampires, fiends or angels. I still want to play that character, that concept, but I can't, and won't bother attempting to request something that I might enjoy again. What I will do, if I request something, is find something that's not in any way different from the common sights of FR, and request that. Like a friendly, sociable kobold, maybe? Oh wait, they're not requested, and I see no tribal kobolds on Amia any more, it's like we suddenly tamed them all. Saying that, I point out that I love Ais, Kurchin, Thesekar, Sun', all of those of the Quagmire. They're an awesome faction and they have my full backing as a player.

I hate to include you in my post with out consent, and I apologize for it, but Hackums, a lot of my faith in the team died when you left. I know others that feel the same, too. In my opinion the team needs more Hackums. Not less.

Now I just sat for several minutes before posting this because I'm worried how responses will come, like I feel like my feedback was a little too harsh or some crap. I shouldn't have to feel that when dealing with a group of people I retreat to playing with to relax and escape RL problems. Sorry if it is too harsh, but it's how I as a player feel. I'm not smart as a politician who can "Tell you to go to hell, and make you look forward to the trip"- Quotes Random Amian NPC.

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MAURICE "THE JUGGERNAUT" GRAFF

While I have no resentment from the DM team, there's things brought up in this thread I want to echo my feelings of agreement toward that I'd like to see addressed:








If I could see some progress from these points, I'd be a happy bunny. As it stands, I'm seeing more uncomfort behind DM actions as of late, not just from me but from other players. Whether it's from random rule-enforcement (as in, it's wrong that this person is doing this, then doesn't call out another player on it) or from simply making OOC issues IC (I'm not on because of OOC reasons so I'm going to press the fast forward button and rush IC RP). I don't want to have a negative view of the DM team, and I certainly don't right now, but as it stands something unnerving is happening on the server and I know I'm not only one who can view it.

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So! One of the things I've been wanting to get rolling is a somewhat different system of deal with Requests. Some new labels, some new language, some different ways of making and approving. The draft is still too embarrassingly unpolished to just quote, so I'll give a summary of what I've been pushing for:

Green-light things. These are things that can be played without any care or supervision or whatever.

Red-light things. These are things that require a full request to be made before it can be made/played/continued/done. Platinum coin races, for example.

Yellow-light things. These are things that would be "checked in" but considered approved-unless-protested. Instead of having to wait for a DMIG to play a Yellow-light thing, you just post or PM it to us. It's to let us know what you're playing or doing is exceptional or extreme, and the purpose of you informing us is to show that you realize that it's unusual. You are free to play these things, but you MIGHT be approached if something is really questionable or incorrect with the lore/reasoning. At which point, the DMs will work with you to get that sorted to where it fits into setting lore. If it is a very extreme thing, then it MAY be turned to a Red-light and require a full request.

These basically describe both the amount of pause/time that is needed, and also generally imply how extremely a given thing deviates from the norm.

We already do Green and Red. I've proposed that Yellow be for things like non-represented classes and oddities like the infamous white-skinned Chultans. In the index of Green/Yellow/Red things, it would look something like this:


- EXAMPLE -


Chultan with white skin

The What : If you play a Chultan with a non-typical skin color, and you have not had the exception posted (link to appropriate subforum), it will be changed.
The Why : The Chultan subrace is frequently subject to abuse by being taken for purely for mechanical advantages without any acknowledgement of subrace's lore, or even knowledge of their lore and description.
Educate! : (Link to relevant lore about Chultans that Amia uses.)


Eldreth Veluuthra

The What : Explanation.
The Why : Reason would go here, such as being extremely rare and only 100. Lore-intense.
Educate! : (Link to relevant lore about the Eldreth Veluuthra that Amia uses.)



- /EXAMPLE -


This means that if you wanted to play a white-skinned Chultan, you just have to post something saying, "Hey, my Chultan character has a non-standard appearance for their subrace because they have a pigment deficiency. They were treated different as a result, and that eventually led to how they came to Amia!" Bam. Done. The Team looks at it, nods, moves on. You don't wait for any replies, you just carry on. It lets us know that you know it's non-standard, which lets us know that you've at least glanced at the lore.

This means if you want to play a character who is a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra, you have to request it and wait for approval before it's kosher. You need to show more understanding of the implications, of how extremely this deviates from standard.

Now, in tandem with this, I think requests have gotten a bit out of hand and focus. I theorize that this is partially due to people who go above and beyond in their requests, filling it with an incredible amount of information and display of their understanding of the lore - and this somehow managed to subconsciously raise the bar until it crept into being a new standard. As a result, we have many people so terrified of requests that they either don't make them at all, or they feel they have to carefully construct them as if they are planning out a stratagem against a djinn, and gods help them if they phrase one line of it slight wrong.


So, this is the sample of the model I'm been proposing, drafting, adjusting. It is simultaneously more and less stringent. Things that haven't (officially) needed to be "checked in" before now would be, but the overall demands for most requests would be relaxed to a check list that relies more on lore and intention. Do you actually know what it is you want to play? Does it fit in with our Amian Campaign Setting lore? Okay, cool, let's discuss any rough edges. It might still be inappropriate. Requests will still be denied if they're not things that fit with the setting. But the criteria, I think, will be far more appealing and expeditious in discussion.

OH, I almost forgot to mention: this is intended to be in conjunction with another project; having Amia setting lore posted on the forums. The contradictions regarding certain aspects of Draconic lore, for example, are one of the things we're looking at, and instead of citing pages from this or that book and telling you to just go look it up, we'd compile everything we have decided to use for Amia. And then the book is thrown away. We don't use anything not listed in that one, super official lore thread, which would be with other threads of that nature on other subjects, in its own tidy Official Amian Setting subforum. No ambiguity. Everything we can think of written down. Asterisks for the things we haven't thought of or forgot, room to add things.

Additionally to this, Letum and I currently work ob a better lay-out and structure for the request forum by making more sub-forums.

For example on just for custom scripting, so our scripters see immediately which requests need their attention and input without having to dig through all of them.

My personal idea was (additional to what is now):

Subforum Name: Custom Scripts
Description: Be it feats, abilities or spells, anything that does involve scripting.

Subforum Name: Special Race and Platinum Race requests
Description: Requests of any races not available on chara creation.

Subforum Name: Job Log changes
Description: Be it a full wipe or a change of the Job Log, please post here.

Subforum Name: Special PrC or Base Classes
Description: Any non standard NWN Classes.


Any of these subforums would come with their own sticky of a guideline that is to help what is expected and possible also a template. If already existing, also DC pricing.

This is just the rough idea, please feel free to suggest additional or removal of some of these!

This should hopefully all speed up process. For example as a DM I would know "dang just got 5 min before heading to work, oh I quickly go through the job log changes as they are usually quite uncomplicated to comment on and do not require too much in depth reading." Just an example of course.

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I gotta say that I'm really liking both of your ideas (Letum and Amarice). This isn't going to be a long post. But more-so just stating that both of those ideas in combination with each other will easily lend to more organization and attention to things, for DMs, Devs, and Players alike. I'm definitely for such a thing as that.

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When the hell did playing Eldreth Veluuthra require a request? I'm sorry, I said I would bow out, but that's ridiculous. This is patently opinionated DMing, when you're basing your opinion on the lore as a fact. I've argued time and time again that it is not outside of the lore possibility by any stretch. And I know exactly who on the DM team has been confusing evil elves as lore-impossible, instead of lore-improbable.

I'm glad you've undertaken that project, Letum-- because a rehashing of the request thread is extremely important. I'm just sad that it's given to the vocal, heavily opinionated views of certain members of the staff who fail to appreciate the availability of choice.

Frankly, I'd almost ask that you drop the project. I'd rather have no change to the request thread, than something trying to be done that gets hijacked by the exact people that we've been presenting our concerns about. This has the option to be incredibly fucking dangerous. Where are things like the Eldreth Veluuthra even mentioned at all in the 'reminder' rules? It's literally an example of two, maybe three specific DM's who have an invested interest in streamlining Elven RP to their optimal outlook, and with these changes to the request thread, they're able to do far, far more damage than these 'Reminder' rules.


This is a change that requires a certain amount of upset response.

The supposed 'bar' standard should be lowered, as well. So don't link a fully-drawn, formatted and 10-page request as your 'example'. Something that's not gods-awful, but not something god-like in terms of a standard, but passable.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Hackums, please go back to my post and note that I enclosed those two entries in "Example" and consider that in relation to the other language I used in the post as to it being in the draft stage, and thus nothing is set in stone.

Richard, I don't actually think linking to other requests is a good policy, over all. The link would be to lore, not other interpretations of it. People would still be free to browse the publicly posted requests for inspiration and thought food, of course.

I think the idea of the Eldreth Veluuthra being by request might come from how they are recruited. It isn't something as simple as just "joining", afterall. The fact that it requires a request likely points at just needing people to fully understand the lore behind it, as the lore itself is very important in the way one would play a member of the organization.

That, or it was simply used as an example.

EDIT: Yes. It seems it was just an example.

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