I disagree that the setting of the server should be down to the player base. It means that no true oppressing nature will ever come from the playerbase, and that just increases the workload for the DM’s. Who dislike epic events due to the problems that have unfolded numerous times in the past.

The simple truth is Amia has a poor player base when it comes to good and evil, for example we can look at banites and the eternal order. Both have oppressed various factions, both have killed a large portion of players to please there gods. The difference is the banites where confronted by an army of good and neutral players. They stood alone, without allies few people aided them. For there hard work in creating oppression they where slaughtered in there own place of worship. No divine deity came to there aid, no amount of NPC guards could aid in there protection. Unlike what has happened numerous times with players that opposed the eternal order.



Now lets look at the eternal Order, this faction could be classed as evil for it’s work. Numerous factions have been put under heavy strain NPC and PC alike. Tarkuul, Mystra Monolith even Cordor itself, all of which have been threatened or even lain siege too by this good player faction. Have the players united against them like they did the Banites? No.



I am split thought on the black caravan laying siege to the Eternal Order, on one hand I am pleased something finally came along to do to them what the player base did to the banites. What I dislike is that it –had- to happen, that repercussions had to come to a good aligned faction from a DM plot. Not from the playerbase as what happend to the banites and there goals.

To be frank the Eternal order has accomplished a lot more in fear and oppression than the banites could ever do, through the player base's taste to attack anything evil yet those who fight for good slide on by when there ways are almost exactly the same as evil yet disguised by one simple thing, ooc lore saying they are good alligned.

This is unrealistic, thus showing that making the setting of the server down to the player base will always lead to a longer harder path for the evil player base.

I also believe the server is harder for single evil players as well. I have seen OOC knowledge from the DM team mean that a player could not advance in there goals. Due to the possible friction and meta gaming that would become apparent if the player joined a faction.

The fact is this leads to players who wish to play hero’s can't on amia, the reason being its impossible to play a hero when everyone around you is jumping on the bandwagon the moment even a simple thief is found.

The idea of heroes of playing good is that they set out to change an environment, they set out against impossible odds of oppression to bring hope to the world. This does not happen in amia’s good setting due to the playerbase.

I hope this edit makes more sense its still preatty damn early for me to concentrate much lol


All in all, Amia is and always will be biased towards good if the DM team work the alignment of the island from the player base.

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM

I have very little idea what you're trying to say in that post Ray, and I don't think I'll be the only one.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Even my evil characters would support good against evil, simply because a ''good'' world is objectively a better one to live in. What would my evil dude gain if half the settlements on amia were burned and legions of innocents slaughtered?

My evil drow (not lolthite) who likes to burn and destroy for fun, would not help burning down Uhm, all he would gain would be the hate of the good folk and a burning village. He would rather burn the attackers, and get a pat on the back from the good guys as a bonus.

He has no problem slaughtering evil giants for fun and profit. There's no reason for him to want to slaughter good creatures over the evil ones.

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Okay, I've waited to see what the response was before posting my own thoughts.

Why?

Because its interesting to me how people react to this loaded question.

First, let me address this:



You haven't seen a lot of power because they're not interested in running around putting a huge X on their forehead anymore.

Long ago, in the "golden era" of Amia, the Banites and their cousins the Zhents were hardly heard from. You wouldn't hear about the Skull Crags being claimed, or "X" being claimed by the Banites, but they were into everything. They had agents in Cordor, Kohlingen, everywhere.

Now? Who's to say the Banites haven't just returned to that classic lawful evil stand that it's better to operate behind a veil of legitimacy, than in front of a large spotlight.

A lot of people choose to make an "evil" character because:

1.) There's so many good guys the odds of actually becoming "someone" amidst the "someones" is incredibly low.

2.) They believe by becoming a "evil" character, this will draw attention upon them.

The bottom line in playing evil on a server like Amia is this:

If you try to do anything public, you just shot yourself. Seriously. You go ahead and walk into Cordor with your 4 compadres and see what happens when you try your next big plot to do something dasterdly. Evil has to be played =smartly=, and it has to be done behind a veil of legitimacy, or it's pointless.

A perfect example is Nes'ek. I started that plot in Tarkuul for the =sole purpose= of diverting the EO's attention from Tarkuul. Why? For a completely different reason than just allowing Ankh'remun to rampage around and kill people. Nes'sek was just a distraction!

Makes you wonder what we were doing while everyone was camped out at Nes'ek, doesn't it?

What about Wharftown? The whole POINT of taking over Wharftown and then the Temple was to allow the good guys to kick the Banites out of the town and reclaim the obvious temple. Yaaay ! The good guys have won, so they go and have tea and pat each other on the back.

Meanwhile the REAL temple was secretly being built the entire time the plot was going on.

It was all just a distraction, to take away from teh lamplighters being able to stop the temple from being built.



And that's my point. That's how Lawful, intelligent evil, in my opinion, works... by creating so many distractions and what not that the lamplighters never know where the real issue is, while still being able to deal with the inevitable defeat merely due to =manpower=.

Let's face it - in any game that imitates real life, even in a fantasy setting, it's not

"Hey, is this game situated towards good? or Evil"

It's

"Hey, this game is situated towards good ultimately winning, because if it didn't, we wouldn't have the environment to play in like we do."

Using LotR, or Star Wars is a fallacy, because for both of those stories, the environment was used as a vehicle for the actual plot, which was that even if evil seems to triumph, it's really just an illusion because good will ultimately win.

Regards,

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"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere

I'd like to see a more gritty, dark Amia too. But it must come from the players, I think. It can be I am missing out on all the evil action, but to me it seems evil is more about fashion than being evil for the time being.

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

Honestly, you people have this all wrong lol. Seriously, terribly wrong.

Frey, I have to be honest with you but at the same time I don't want to discredit your roleplay, here goes. You might think it is a big deal to, say, infiltrate cordor's council or to conspire with some NPC. Most amian players, though, probably don't even know cordor has a council, care that cordor has a council or care that cordor's council is corrupted. The reason Darthion copped it isnt because of any of that nonsense you are all stating, its because he started to curve stomp PCs which a lot of other PCs knew. It was great work by darthion, seriously was. However, the result was that everyone who had a plank of wood in their backyard wanted to whack darth with it. Now, don't get me wrong, subtle evil is great but it only really works properly as a narrative device on amia when you are manipulating or attempting to manipulate PCs. Otherwise you are really targetting a very small niche of players.

Remember, none of your character's achievements are real whatsoever, they are only validated by the audience receiving them. Darthion, the black flag during the EO vs. Mystra's Tower, etc were all receiving a lot of player attention. Subtle evil can, but I find subtle evil mostly seems to work by someone who is kind of in with the DMs saying "can you possess NPC X"? That isnt well played imo, because it has no bearing either discretely or indiscretely on my or most players experience of the amian world. It just attracts the same few niche players every time.

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Your measure of success here seems to be rather absolute, but also very vaguely defined. If you are right, why care about the big audience who don't care if the people involved think it's a big deal?

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

I don't, what I was more responding to was the statement that, "this is the way to play evil on amia". I don't think the DM team should encourage that particularly Lawful, subterfuge style of evil over the more pronounced style because ultimately its not for the best. The moral 'frame' I am using here would be closest to utilitarianism, greatest good (fun) for the greatest number. Not saying you should create your character based on that premise, but the DM team and players seem desperately intent on shooting themself in the foot by attempting to discourage it. You need that so called 'stupid' evil for two reasons: 1. It exists in reality. 2. It gets more people involved than the subtle evil.

PS: That subtle evil doesnt make you a better or worse roleplayer, either, so seriously people stop coming from that angle because you honestly don't realize that the supposition of your statement is that your roleplay is superior to some seriously great writers such as Dostoevsky, etc..

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Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I do agree with Wyjyn. Subtle evil is how I play evil, generally, but I know how to make it work for me, because I use the same tactics good characters use to direct/generate RP. Sometimes people don't know the difference until the deed is done. The sacrifice is that you're always wondering, always questioning, left to wonder whether what occurred was something with evil intent or without.

But this is approaching it from the "alignment is a morally gray area", which doesn't have the best application in DnD. We like our high fantasy epics, we like our palpable evils, and those palpable evils are the ones that can be easily recognized by our palpable goods, who suddenly then have something to occupy their time that isn't the kind of jumping at shadows the subtle style does.

I am afraid I could never accomplish playing the palpable evil in Amia as a PC. I would be PvP-creamed at every corner, because I personally suck at making anything that can survive with a build and I have to get others to hold my hand to even make it effective in PvM, let alone PvP. In order to be palpable evil, you have to be a threat. Otherwise, you're just a laughingstock in the Amian community. Knowing my openly evil PCs would get mercilessly raped at every juncture, I would have to step up my game, take a good look at the setting, and find a way to leave my mark or my stamp, and then go through the exact same process good PCs who want to do the same thing have to: RP'ing hard enough to earn a reaction from the DM Team.

This is where I differ from the majority of my peers, however. Having worm the DM hat for a couple of years now, I know how most of you evil folks have this notion that the best thing to do if you want the DM support is to ask in advance, to plot and plan with a DM at your side before the action ever begins. I disagree. All this does is piss off the good guys because you're obviously getting the DM to help you be a bad guy.

No. I do the same thing here as an evil PC that I do as a good PC. Before I was a DM, I didn't really talk to the DMs much, or petition them for anything. I was content to just roleplay and always assume the best from players and DMs alike and always remain IC (a lost art these days), and when I saw the opportunity to promote a personal agenda, I would capitalize upon it with gusto. Riding the wave. My sense of fairness told me that it was wrong to ask a DM to do something specifically for me, to make me shine out in a good or evil way...no, what I had to do was take full advantage of their existing plots and stories and insinuate myself (and my agenda), and to do so without being one of those horribly lame event hog players who shows up at at the site of a Shout without justifiable cause.

I am the one who is responsible for making me openly good or openly evil or openly nothing. Me. Not the DMs. That is my power (and responsibility) as a player, and it is definitely harder to make myself openly evil because, as I said, the key word is "threat". Since I am not capable of making myself the PvP threat, I have to make myself the threat by looking at an ongoing event and insinuating my evil agenda and hope I can make it work.

This is why I speak with authority when I say Amia favors the good. I know it firsthand from a player perspective and a DM perspective. It is because the majority of my fellow players think in terms of good as the superior agent who has carte blanche to band together with Neutrals and slay Evil. This is not a bad thing, nor is there anything wrong with it, it just makes my work harder, and so what if it does? If ever the thought crossed my mind to think, "This isn't fair," my kneejerk reaction would be to tell myself to stop being such a little bitch and whining, and to try harder if I want to accomplish anything.

Therefore, that is my same reaction to other players who claim it isn't fair...though I am nicer about it, because quite frankly I always feel I've held myself to demanding standards.

I feel as though I've walked through this entire situation personally, and had it verified time and again vicariously through the experience of other players enough to see how it all fits. That said, Craig is right and is trying (unsuccessfully, I'm afraid) to explain what I couldn't be bothered to get into the details of. He points out that the sense of "evil" (including threat) nine times out of ten only works with DM validation. Which is the fact I've been pointing to in this entire post. However, that does not make it the DMs' fault or responsibility to balance good and evil. We have to validate what exists in the playerbase, and what exists in the playerbase is the greater good and the lesser evil (the greater evil being reserved for the DM NPC storyline).

I suppose it is possible the lesser evil PC could maybe one day RP hard enough, catalogue their acquisitions and make such huge leaps and bounds on an evil agenda that they might one day graduate to a greater evil...but I have yet to see it happen. The initiative begins with the player, and the responsibility relies with the player. The DM is the reactive (not active) agent.

That's painful, to read. When you really do realise the differences.

While I lead the Church of Bane, our evil actions didn't count up to those of the EO.

It was mostly propaganda and preachings. Verbal conflicts. There wasn't too much PvP either. Unless you take those goody-goodies into account who felt it was nessecary to challenge someone, just because they were evil.

Still, the simple fact that the Banites were evil, was enough to rally more or less the entire server (counting 40+ level 30 epics here), to tear down the Banite temple.

Banites vs Everyone.

That's a good post, and good point, Craig.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

---

I very much agree with Yossarin's post, and I do love it when players manage to do something surprising in a plot. But for the love of everything holy, don't misinerpret him as to think that you should surprise us mechanically. That is to say, if you don't give a bit of warning before you attack an NPC or something, you will create utter OOC chaos due to how I mechanically run my styff. If you do it correctly and smartly, you can create IC chaos rather.

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

---

Some evil PCs have started some real nice plots that kept lots of people busy. Those have my respect, because it is a challenging way to RP, but much fun for players of good and evil folks alike can come from it.

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Playing atm Eowariel (Elven archer) / Gwendolyn (Monk)
Inactive: Hector (Triadic knight)

And this should ultimately be the goal for any player driven plot.

Well spoken.

Regards,

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"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere

i believe it is:

-evil needs a time to shine too-

and it is asking a lot of people their thoughts, most of them are pointing out the obvious truth of evil immediately being shunned from the server unless DM assisted, while even if DM assisted, there is an extreme amount of neutral epic people looking for action while they constantly say they are bored IC, which they should be saying that OOC and these neutral epic people dont care if what they are doing is good or evil, they just want action.

at least thats what i got out of it, maybe clarification if im wrong?

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Go read Yossarin's posts.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It would be nice if the scales of good and evil on Amia tilted back and forth once in a while, instead of being kind of stuck in a permanent 60/40 position. I can think of no good fiction where the good people have the upper hand the whole book, and Amia is pretty much real-time fan fiction. and might explain those random "WHY DOESN'T ANYTHING HAPPEN ON AMIA!?" posts that pop up once in a while. It's just not gripping.

It would be cool if, for instance, Cordor was put under siege for a couple of months, and players actually felt that it could be destroyed by some forces of evil, whether that's true or not. I have a hunch that kind of thing has happened before, explaining all the statues around Cordor. I vote for something like that to happen again! Or for the first time for me! And I've been here almost 2 years!!!

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"When somebody headbutts, everybody looses."

Again, it isn't "stuck" anywhere... read Yossarin's posts in the topic.

Cordor did get blown up once, btw.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Due to Cordor already being rebuilt. The event which blew it up was attached to it in order to give the sudden change an IC reasoning.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Not really relevant: He asked if it happened, and it has!

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Mr Mago's point is relevant. The threat to Cordor in that instance sounds like having to come up with a believable IC reason for an OOC change, and I use the term OOC loosely. And don't get me wrong, I'm all for OOC change, just maybe ....

I guess what I'm saying is, I'd care more about Cordor and goodness in general if I felt there was an actual serious threat to it, instead of goodness being certain. But more poetic than that.

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"When somebody headbutts, everybody looses."

Double post:

Imagine The Lord of the Rings if Sauron was a joke with no hope of winning. Would TLOTR be 1000+ pages? Maybe, but it would have never been published because no-one would read it.

Now take Amia as an example. If you put all the text on paper and made it into a book, imagine how many thousands or hundreds of thousands of pages would that be.

Is that a book you'd like to read? I wouldn't, but Amia is the Wikipedia version of the Lord of the Rings. You can get in there and change it any time you want.

(As a concession to fiction fans out there, I'll admit that the only book in wide circulation where the goodguys have the upper hand the whole time is the Bible. However that still doesn't mean it's good fiction.)

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"When somebody headbutts, everybody looses."

.. But... there was an actual serious threat. And they *destroyed the city*. I'll guess you weren't around for any of it. MAgo's view is incredibly pessimistic.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That is an accurate guess. Which brings me back to the fact that I've been playing Amia for almost 2 years, which isn't a long time by some standards, but that is a long time of feeling like the forces of evil are impotent on Amia.

Any chance of something like that happening again?

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"When somebody headbutts, everybody looses."

What about my view was pessimistic? I just found it odd that you would use the desctruction of Cordor as an example.

Since, it's an example of OOC changes leading to IC actions, rather than IC actions leading to OOC changes.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

speaking off cordor will there be a huge load of holes and maybe fire in the docks when/if that storm hits?

i was sure i left a post here, i believe neutrals to be more good imo because "good" just use deitys to justify killing, which is not good ever unless they are true raw chaos enbodied, and u cud still seal them or something instead. cud b hard IC though.

There will be much more than that. And that entire event was a player-borne event where Evil had its day and, more or less, won.

And yet here's this thread, telling us DMs we're the ones responsible for squashing every bad guy's attempt to do something worthwhile. Feh. Make me feel like I just wasted four hours, thank you very much.

After taking sometime to read through these posts again and reflect on my own bid for promoting evilness, I've come to the conclusion of a pretty sound theory which reflects most of the points made in this thread.

Being that Amia is a persistent world with no end in sight, good and evil cannot claim definitive wins like some movie or book. They can only tip the balance of scales between one or the other in a given period of time. This balancing scale between good and evil player/conflict is best thought of as two kids playing on a see-saw with relations to Yossarin's very profound statement....



Except...I'm going to re-edit Yossarin's statement because I believe it is largely incomplete

Now how does this relate to the two kids on the see-saw? The two kids are the players each representing their chosen side of good or evil. Neutral doesn't have a seat because they have the choice to swing either way. Both kids must take the initiative to push off their seat and act responsibly by giving the other a chance to push off theirs. If one kid has the tendency to grow fat, like the above picture, than the see-saw cannot move cooperatively. This is where the DM team comes in to push the fat kid off and replace them with a slimmer kid inorder to keep the see-saw moving on its own.

This comic below illustrates what happens when the see-saw cannot move on its own.

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--Jaqueline Fend---> Red-headed wizzy
--Rhalia Cain---> Red Wizzy
--Rizo'lil---> Waterhavian specialist (not a wizzy)

A lot of the trick why people see that as happening is they're probably thinking they have to do something big to pull off bein' an interesting Evil.

You don't.

Hispara is quite Evil , and she's happily content serving Frey doing her thing and following his commands.

This approach doesn't work for everyone, mind but it does work for some.

I'm not going to describe a whole standpoint on the topic in this post, but I have just one point to make.



Bold is mine.

Most of the time* this good Yossarin writes of is not DnD good, Tyr good or Corellon good, but RL good. You will find very few PCs that go against general equality, women's rights, liberal democracy, respect for minorities, and other such modern values. In most of the cases, no one will unless their player has specifically thought about it when making the character.

It is in this little spot that you can really let shine your evil characters by making use of the differences between the 'goods' out there. Sure, if you're seeking to empty that spellbook on a bunch of good aligned people and run away laughing this tip of mine won't work, but for general plotting and scheming and evil roleplaying - face it, you'll be in a party with good aligned people most of the time - it works grand. Doesn't work if you're the insulting type of evil though. (Typical conversation: Paladin: Hi. Insulting evil player: Bah, paladins.)

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Ghulkaat Bik’kon (Bik) of the Scalp Scrapers, Priest of Torm

Cudos Yossarin. About five hours after I asked if something bad could happen to Cordor again it did and I was there! Not like one led to the other but still, Wohoo.

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"When somebody headbutts, everybody looses."

Didnt bother to read the whole topic, just want to say my opinion.

Whenever there is an "evil" faction rising and trying to get pwoer or whatever evil.. the "good guys" gang up. Doesnt really need much to have most of Amias factions on the good guys side.

Even in Winya this can be seen. People just easier go on the "good guys" side and dont want or need to get much information of the matter at hand. "Just lets go there and kill evil" attidute. I dont mean to whine about it, but sometimes it feels like everyone are too easy to get involved when its Good vs. Evil, usually ends up that good side have 40 people against 10.

I tried to make an evil char, but I grew bored of it. I also tried Good guys, but I felt its pretty much like " Lets see what evil is out there now and strike it down and after that we look for other evil thing."


I would like to see more neutrality. Not just "Because my deity is good and is against this and that I must kill you for calling undead"

Where are the neutral factions? Winya for one will always be against necromancers, so is Kohlingen. Cordor feels like its moving towards it. Only evil "city" I can think of is Tarkuul, not sure if it is evil or not.

Why sometimes it couldnt be like neutral people fighting. Not because of religion things, but because something just went wrong in the relations of the two factions and not have over half of amia go on one side.

And btw, I do think that the DM are doing the best they can. But most of the chars of players are in other side. Yossarin already said what there is to be said actually, now that I read some of the post,

So people. MAKE MORE NEUTRAL CHARS OR EVIL!!!!!!!

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

FWIW, I've always assumed that Sharina was Lawful Evil.

Gagis is still LG, even if it is a few points off. Too bad he has not been around to watch over his brethren quite enough.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

I have yet to see anything that constitutes as evil from the EO
..and frankly..i find the disregard of evil gods and thier followers rather unfearunian..
worshipping a evil god is a MAJOR evil deed..i think people forget that.


and too answer one of the questions..i find this server majorly pro darkness...

why?

one reason..cordor dosnt give a damm about them, they are accepted as part of life and to be tolorated and so forth...so..its pro evil in my eye..

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

Not neccessarily, one example would be posing IC'ly as a good aligned person, there are other things too, but i'm too lazy right now to add the others, that was the first to come to mind and easiest to use.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

One thing to remember: This is a game designed for putting a bunch of heroes against evil overlords.

Taking it the other way around is not the main purpose and can be difficult. Awesome when it works but it is in no way automatic or to be expected.

I have even seen servers where playing the evil/opposing side is left entirely for NPC:s. Would not work on Amia but it is not a bad idea on there.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

Hmm, very illuminating thread, I must say I agree mostly with Yossarin's and Wyjyn's points.

Firstly I think direct evil is more fun, effective, memorable and inclusive than covert evil.

People have cited Darthion's leadership of the Banites and all his aggressive moves, (claiming territory, stomping goodies, making his faction known) a few times through this thread. I even remember getting extorted by them and sneaking into the shadows to watch them extort (and kill) other PCs, because the sight of that many players all interacting with the game world so boldly, and including so many players by doing so, was so dramatic and exciting that I couldn't tear myself away. They were the talk of the town, and made a difference in the world that a lot of people noticed.

The fights that preceded it may have been unfair in "good"s favor or not, but the point is those events included a lot of people without much DM intervention, and the whole thing played out much like a story with a beginning, middle and end. The fact that they ended up losing is irrelevant with regards to all the fun and drama they brought, I'm sure they were quite happy to accept defeat, but the energy they brought to the server and its rp was really something. IMO, causing all the servers good factions to activate and band together against them was a momentous victory for the players of teh bad guys, because for once people were forced to RP taking evil seriously.

And I'm not trying to get into Mago's panties, honest, but that whole chain of events is the most memorable good vs evil confrontation Ive ever witnessed in my time on Amia, and I think that style of evil play: Bold, visible, united, and I suppose stereotypical, has the most for everyone to cling to and become a part of. IMO its also the best way for evil factions to become widely feared, as opposed to secretive evil which only ever involves a few players (and often a DM apparently, which they dont seem to like). No beef at all to frey though hes probably the most infamously evil PC currently active on Amia.

Lol sorry for the long post, I was only goign to give my 2 cents but ended up giving like 30 bucks xD

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Vaylek - The Worst Guy
Pu Liu - Descendant of the Great River Dragon

I won't hide it, while this thread is interesting me, I do not have the time right now to read it all in detail (will do so back home).

However, there is a few little cents I figured I would add in here, that perhaps have been mentionned less clearly (again i'll have to read it in detail) :

In my opinion, and from the experience I gathered while playing on many nwn roleplay servers for the last 5 years, the best the only thing to definitely disturb the balance of good and evil is the lack of "player and faction integration into the main plot".

Let me take the exemple of my last server.
While for a long time the good side had been kind of favored (by the simple fact the module was set in a mainly neutral / goody place), evil still had a very important place. It was possible because of highly developped factions. Some were created by DMs and progressively taken over by players, while some were born from players themeslves, but supported, as time passed, by hideouts, faction guards, etc.

The result of this was simple : When the main plot big animations came, not even the DM could be 100% sure of where it was going. Simply because a certain number of faction players each played their cards, set up plans, ambushes, tricks, traps. Because alliances were made at the last possible moment. Because of luck or ill too, when a pally runs into a drow raid, or an assassin get's caught red handed.

In this case, it happened that the baddies had a hidden ace, and took over a village and a city. Goodies never saw it coming. They fell back to another city. The main roleplay point migrated, the baddies advanced. The general good/evil set was reversed, until something else came and until good players outsmart the baddies.

So In my humble opinion, the important thing is not really to favor one or the other at the start, but to make it so the players can move things themselve and poke their nose into that very balance.

Thoughts on this?

Jesus Christ, Yossarin. Long post. But I loved it.





He's right in a lot of ways... and you guys implied something, but I think it should be said even more clearly (at least, if I read you both right).



This is getting at what I wanted to say more clearly. I don't think the initiative begins fully with the Evil-playing player.. I think it begins with those GOOD-playing players with whom the Evil-playing player has been interacting and these Goodie-goodies responsibility to allow something to affect their characters. You can choose to ignore anything you want. You get sacrificed? You get raised in like two seconds and can have your character forget it ever happened if you want -- and people do. You get tortured? Oh, right, well, my character is pretty much immune to pain and was fine during most of that. Right?

It's about how people have to OOCly allow the chance of IC actions with an evil intention affect them. Even if you're a PVP monster and can PWN them time and time again, in a world like Amia, you can't really force the threat or consequence of anything (without a DM).

Everyone wants an Evil player to have to be "so much smarter" and "so much better" than them. But really, they're not always going to be that and honestly can't always be -- or they'll be breaking some rules, too. OOCly, you know it's just idiot nerds like you sitting at a computer. Remember that, to your character, you can make any character or Evil the "boogie man" of what you're scared of in real life. You can add Evil to anything you want, just like you can inspire your character to forget/giggle/hug anything or everything they want.

I think the reason Darthion was so hated/feared ICly was mostly because he was almost as hated/respected OOCly -- but also so supported (at times) OOCly. He had a real affect on the characters simply because he had a real affect on the people playing them. Most people don't want Evil to affect their characters, though. Eh. Yossy is right. People on Amia like to have more Good around than Evil. So they make it happen that way.



1. I agree that asking a DM to do something feels wrong, for me. But it doesn't to everyone -- and I'm not sure that it SHOULD. And I think it's disappointing the amount of times I saw it said time and time again: "They're only that successful because they sucked up to the DMs."

2. Remaining IC is a lost art. And I think that is one of the biggest problems for Evil players. They are/were when I played so downplayed by OOC gossip and manipulation. I almost don't want to be friends with anyone OOCly, because then when my character has done something shitty to them, it's all of a sudden my doing something shitty to that friend OOCly, too. Or it's that I'm an OOC idiot and I'm going to pay OOCly for doing that to them. Etc, etc... it's more about OOC than IC. It's so sad to me.

3. Hardly anyone else "assumes the best" in their fellow players. They assume the best in their idols of Roleplay (I saw this far too often-- and was far too often disappointed), but assume the worst in those that they dislike those person's characters or that person OOCly, from forums or whatever.




Playing Evil on Amia is what got me on this long hiatus I've been having - unintentionally too X.x But... it drove me insane. It drives a lot of 'em that way, too. Look at how many more of those Evil peeps have needed to just run away. Hahaha. At least, I've noticed it. It's a hard life. And it's not only the Goodies fault, but it's not only the Evilies fault either.

I've played predominantly evil people. Furthermore I actually did take the time to read ALL the posts and then answer. I think when it comes to good vs evil some important factors come into play.

Balance VS Persistence: PLAYERS(I put emphasis on the word), not DMs, seem to like their status quos, Frey would no more wish to see Tarkuul fall then the EO wanted to see their temple fall. But in a persistent world THIS is what is supposed to and should eventually happen.

So you get players who want change....except in their own backyard. This causes problems.

Chaotic Stupid: I am not refering to Chaotic evils, by the way. I am refering to the many people who would shun players of evil characters who destroy and pillage, purely in the name of evil, but not THE MANY chaotic stupid good people who destroy and pillage, in the name of good. (Eternal Order anyone?)

Chaotic Stupid (part 2): I LOVED THE ETERNAL ORDER!!! Because they proved not all people who are good are good for the people. In Ruathym they harrassed my character to no end and I loved every minute of it. Some people agreed with them, but some other good guys actually didn't.

Now here's where the DMs finally come into play: Chaotic Stupid SHOULD be allowed. Some people are chaotic IRL, and some are stupid. But in all honesty no DMs were complaining when the EO was witchhunting, but I know if ANY evil factuion did those same things they'd be crucified OOC by DMs and players alike.


Evil is not always murder and pillaging: For once cities like Kholingen, Cordor, and the rest should have some change concerning leaders. Make some really greedy council leader take over Cordor, one who allows all races in just to make a buck. Make a leader of Kohlinen so intent in lookin good that his pride dictates all his actions.

The truth is there is too much black and white but not enough grey. I play an evil character, but not every single character I come across IG can say, "He is Pure Evil", EVEN!!!....when he's wearing loads of black, wears a skull helm, and has an undead arm!...hell he's even befriended Lathanderites...but more importantly....THEY befriended him.

If you're going to say the world is persistent, then once in a whil, as much as you may not wish to do so, YOU HAVE TO RAIN ON THE PARADE ONCE IN A WHILE...and I'm not talking about raining on the evil characters....because they lose often enough.

This should also apply to evil places...One day allow Ultrinnan to be run by Vhaeraunites, or some other religion, or hell, other underdark races altogether...allow change.

Change is a double edge sword, some people will like it, some won't, but the word "stagnant" will NEVER come up when describing Amia.

When it comes to Evil and Good, in Amia THESE should be the greatest factors to CHANGE the status quo.

I think that's somewhat related to the fact that Bane's dogma includes the annihilation of every god other than Bane.

Really, it's not just that they're evil, but that they're evil in a way that necessarily means that they're antagonistic to every single person alive who's not a Banite. You can compromise with them in the short term, like Imperial Japan allied with the Nazis, but in the long term you *know* they plan on killing or subjugating you.

Okay that's bull. There are many dark gods temples in the most public and largests cities throughout Faerun. Sembia has Sharens, Banites are rampant in places like Thay, Shadowdale, not to mention they have Zhentil Keep.

It's the very idea that banites kill everything else, when the players of Banites themselves don't even do that...is exactly the kind of single track thought that keeps the server from ever reaching the full potential that it actually has, because those OOC thoughts always translate into IC paranoia and suspicion that kills the motivations for a LE character who attempts to manipulate.

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

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I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.

It's not bull. What I said was specific to Bane, and is from the official setting material describing the god. This is from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:

To be honest I see using lore of dieties etc as a way of judgeing someone as a very weak version of metagame. I would go into more detail and might later, but right now I have 10 assignments to do and 2 weeks to get them done in, between a full time job so i have little time lol.

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM

It is not metagame if it is common knowledge within the setting.

If it's not supposed to be something that everyone (who isn't especially ignorant on religious matters) knows, then I will adjust my characters' RP accordingly.

Not everyone plays a barbarian who appeared on Amia fully grown with no prior knowledge or prejudices (although I can see it could be fun to play someone like that, and let their view be entirely determined by what they encountered in the game).

Oh... crap...

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

My two cents: One thing that would be nice would be a burden of truth. If an evil character is belted by a good character on here say, have the good players god (if they have one0 require penance.

If an evil player is showing disrespect to their god by playing happy feet with good characters with no ulterior motive then smack their backside good.

On that whole, conspicuous evil is more inclusive deal i say Balls! I have tried to execute a couple of sneaky underhanded plots that required investigation by calculating good characters and I got almost no where. The slightest indication of guilt was found and out came the swords. A gaggle of good guys ran down and bashed the 'bad guy' who was revealed to be a good guy.

The result was that, of all the people that got worked up to attack, only one had the initiative to stop and ask who did the frame up and why. They pressed on with the investigation and were going well, sadly they took the evidence to IC superiors(PCs) they were met with a blunt OOC attitude of 'thats a dumb plot'. The plot then died.

We need staying power! If an underhanded plot is going to be fun it needs good guys who are willing to investigate; to hit dead ends and search for more evidence, to be magnum-frigging-P.I.! I will bet you a ga-zillion bucks that the 'baddie' will leave bits of evidence here and there so the good guy can check it out. People cry about nothing happening and are totally unwilling to look past the end of their sword for good/evil interaction