I'll really excited about the proposed shifter changes. I love the class and have been playing them for years on many different servers, and I look forward to seeing what the motivated and talented developers that Amia is blessed with will come up with. I have a few more mechanically oriented questions about the shifter changes. First, will you be changing the merging and stacking rules for equipment when shifted?
As it stands right now, shifters have some pretty serious limitations on gear options, (ie no stacking saving throw bonuses, skill bonuses and attribute bonuses, no more than one type of AC bonus) plus the pain of losing the gauntlet slot which never merges for anything.
I wouldn't mind if many of the shapes had only minor improvements over their old forms, if shifters gained the degree of flexibility in equipment that most melee classes enjoy. Second, I was wondering if the changes address a problem with default nwn forms that tend to make them poor party-oriented characters. My biggest peeve in this category was Bioware's decision to make all of the hidden "innate" bonus AC of the different forms Dodge AC.
It doesn't seem like it would be much of a problem, but when you consider that this bonus AC counts towards the +20 dodge cap and many forms have and need quite a lot of bonus AC, it really limits the benefit of party buffs for shifters, namely bard song and haste.
Dragonshape, even without the monk WIS AC bonus, has a crazy amount of base AC with a full +20 dodge AC bonus and a huge +13 Dex bonus. Dragons receive minimal benefit from support party members and have very little in-game incentive to do anything but solo to avoid being forced to divide the spoils. (This of course may not hold as true with dragons losing a huge amount of AC from the WIS nerf, but with an animal companion and elemental summon, a druid dragon is a one man party.)
A similar problem exists for many other shapes +13 for many epic shapes and +13 for all the constructs, +15 for specter and +16 for death slaad! The upshot is that most of the time, a friendly buffer is only marginally more useful than simply chugging a haste potions.
The other shortcoming that shifters face is their innately crummy AB. Most non-dragon shifter builds on Amia have a hard time breaking +40 AB fully buffed and optimized with mediocre to terrible damage output. Most shifter builds, at the most basic level, are essentially fighters, yet they are have worse AB, Damage output, flexibility and even AC than a pure 30 fighter, which is commonly held up as the most lazy, and one of the worst melee builds possible.
There are a variety of reasons why most shifters have such bad ABs, and particularly so on Amia. A significant reason is simply the level 30 cap, which on the whole is a great idea for hemming in overpowered cheese builds. However, it really hurts when it forces you to take at least 5 levels of druid pre-epic, no matter what, if you want to get any worthwhile shifter forms at all. So, working from a level 30 fighter as the base, that means -2 base AB from 5 druid levels right off the bat, no matter what. Realistically though, a more focused shifter will take 13-17 levels of shifter to cash in on epic wisdom bonus feats and/or epic upgrades for the humanoid shapes. (Not to mention the fact that if you want your RP to focus on being a shifter, it is lame that 2/3rds of your character levels would be other classes.)
Another kick in the nads to shifter AB is the lack of attribute bonus stacking that I mentioned before. Which means, at best you can get +4 strength from gear and maybe another +7 from perfect empowered Bull's Strength spells if you decided but levels into a spell-casting class. (Levels which would be largely wasted due to the inability to cast or do anything but drink potions while shifted.) People hoping to use Weapon Finesse and boosting dexterity are even worse off, losing the bracer slot merge for all forms.
Now on some of the other persistent world servers I played on you could manage to find ways around this problem. Either you could get away with having a garbage AB, because even the epic monsters had bad AC, (acknowledging you were completely worthless in PvP) or you could take a bunch of cleric levels and resting every 3 minutes (at which point you were a moron for not just playing a pure cleric). The most successful builds took advantage of corny aspect of shifter immunities, typically some Risen Lord Epic DR tank cheese, although Rakassha shape was a less popular, but viable, option or using the "free" Hide in Plain Sight from the Kobold form and spamming it like crazy.
Pretty awesome how a class that emphasized versatility had only 3-4 viable forms, eh?
I like what I've heard so far about the proposed changes, but I would like to suggest a few simple mechanics changes that would help bring shifters more into line with other Amia melee characters.
Now lets establish a few basic ground rules: (I imagine they are pretty similar to what the design team already had in mind.)
1.) Shifters should never be the best at any one particular thing than another class.
- A shifter should never be able to deal as much damage as a weapon master or sneak-heavy rogue.
- They should never have as much hp as a super-tanked dwarven defender or raging barbarian.
- They should never have as much AB as a cleric or arcane archer.
- Or be as hard to hit as a monk, shadowdancer or bard.
2.) The things required to be minimally effective as a fighter is to have a good AB and AC. Everything else is gravy. Sure being able to do 100+ points of damage on crits is nice or being able to throw out 1-2 40 DC fort saves against death every round is awesome, but it is a luxury.
- The shifter buffs should focus primarily on boosting AB and AC to usable levels for all, or nearly all forms.
- Having splashy special attacks or high damage abilities might be nice for the occasional form, but remember that the main special perk of shifters are their innate immunities, something that few other melee characters have access to. And all the immunities in the world won't matter if you can get whacked for 200 damage a round and fail to hit anything back.
3.) Keep shifters a flexible and interesting class.
- There might be a temptation to boost all of the shapes, but in order to avoid making them overpowered, make all the shapes completely static with preset, inflexible, stats.
- Most default nwn shapes merge some kind of physical stat from your base character. Gargoyle shape for instance merges strength, minotaur merges dexterity. So, if you want to play a shifter with a stronger gargoyle shape, you can make sure his or her strength unshifted is higher. Likewise, if you want a more effective minotaur, boost dex. This creates far more variety in the class than simply locking in the forms with the same, unchanging stats and it forces players to pick and choose the various tradeoffs of specializing. (Just as it is for most other builds.)
- The flexibility of the shifter class can also be greatly enhanced by allowing a full range of equipment choices available to other typical fighter classes. While shifters will never be able to activate items, scrolls or wands while shifted; you can customize the the merging script to allow the normal stacking of attributes by other classes. This forces shifters to make the same kinds of trade offs in their equipment choices as everyone else. (More AC or attribute bonuses. Saving throw bonuses or regeneration/damage resistance, etc.)
Ok, so finally my suggestions:
1.) Change item merging for shifter forms to allow all equipment slots to stack normally.
- A shifter wearing +4 armor, +3 shield and +2 boots will get +9 AC instead of +4 under the current system.
- Each kind of AC would be applied individually. And as the same AC type derived from the equipped item. Boots would give Dodge AC, armor would give Armor AC and shields, Shield AC.
- Extend this to Saving throw bonuses, skill bonuses and attribute bonuses.
- Possibly exclude monk glove AB and damage bonuses from this. I don't know if they would upset any longstanding balance rules, but it seems likely.
- Allow all slots to merge for all forms, except for dragons (and other druid forms). This may require some additional tweaking for some forms, but most of the default unarmed shifter forms are already massively under-powered and could use the boost. They should be at least useable without resorting to monk cross-class cheese.
2.) Nerf shifter innate Dodge AC bonuses.
- Wait, what? What's a nerf doing here? It's pretty obvious if you sit down and think about it. NWN default shapes get nice fat Dodge AC bonuses that make it very easy to hit the +20 cap.
- By itself it wasn't enough to give most shapes a useable AC, and it is just annoying when you want to party with a bard. But if you make all other AC items stack normally it is obviously broken. (This is an easy thing to overlook, another server I played on years ago forgot to address this issue forcing several waves of nerfs over a period of 6 months to rebalance the suddenly uberized shifter AC.)
- I'd recommend just getting rid of the innate Dodge AC bonuses all together. I really don't like invisible bonuses that pop up unaccounted for and have unforeseen effects unless you've read a detailed guide for every shifter form.
- The other nice upside is that it will allow shifters to enjoy the benefits of an awesome level 30 bard w/ mass haste just as much as all the other guys fighting on the frontline!
- This may require a revamping of several shapes, but really all you'll need to do is tweak up the base dex of some forms. Another solution would be to:
3.) Give a scaling bonus to AB and AC for more shifter levels.
- Off the top of my head I would suggest something along the lines of +2 AB and +1 AC per 4 shifter levels, topping out at +10 to AB and +5 to AC at 20 shifter levels.
- Going with multiples of 4 would be good since the last possible level, 20 would fall evenly on a bonus level and anyone crazy enough to take max shifter levels deserves a bonus, I'd say.
- If the AB bonus seems extreme, consider the fact that any build with more than 13 shifter levels has to make serious compromises with their base attack bonus in pre-epic levels. Furthermore, they are forced either to give up on having 4 attacks per round or to give up a tumble dump. Either is a lousy prospect for a primarily melee fighting class.
So there's my proposal. I hope the 1% of people that took the time to read it found it somewhat interesting or useful. I don't think it's perfect, but it, combined with some of the other proposed changes that have been mentioned would go a long ways to making the shifter an interesting and viable option for Amia PCs.
Please feel free to poke holes in my suggestions, I've been thinking about them for awhile, but I just decided to post them on a whim. (Instead of writing a paper due for class, oh well, I'll just do it tomorrow. )
1.) Change item merging for shifter forms to allow all equipment slots to stack normally.
That can't and won't happen, unless you get rid of the rather impressive perks a lot of the shifter forms get. Undead immunities etc + natural AC etc don't work well with a fully merged gearset. Would give potentially very, very high stats for shifters.
I also wonder what your idea is of a minimum workable AB/AC for any character on Amia, at level 30.
+10 AB is a huuuuuge boost.
Something you haven't really taken into account is the amount of self-buff items/potions/scrolls there are avaible on Amia.
Bless, Aid, Prayer, Battlecry... are some of those any character can get ahold of.
Combine that with +10 AB and you'll have a potentially way better AB than most other melee classes.
+10 AB for 20 lvls assuming you take shifter for all of them. shifters get AB bonus 3/4 their lvl. fighters get it 1/lvl. thats 25 AB shifter compared to 20AB fighter. not as much overpowered as it originally looked, but I would say just make it on par with the fighter's 20 by spreading out the bonuses a little more.
I can't possibly answer that entire post, but I assure you that some of what I consider the best balance-minded minds on the server are looking over the shifter class as it changes in order to kepe Shifter what it is.
I can comment on one specific part...
Quote:
1.) Change item merging for shifter forms to allow all equipment slots to stack normally.
This is undoable due to how bioware, and by extension us by necessity, are forced to handle shifting. There are workarounds which have come up on the design forums, and we'll likely look at using one or more of them.
Your concerns are being universally addressed from what I can read. Big gears move slowly, and this moves really really slowly, but it'll get done, and I think it'll be good.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Never understood why Bioware included all that item merging mumbo jumbo. If they made the forms better in the first place, it wouldn't have been needed.
Possibly exclude monk glove AB and damage bonuses from this. I don't know if they would upset any longstanding balance rules, but it seems likely.
Never played druid/shifter before but I'm learning a lot from your post Xanrick. You know your shifter.
I'll throw out an idea here, how about more specialized gear for shifters in Amia? They seem to be the only class with the least amount of unique items for them. Give them shifter only gloves/armor/weapon, that gives them weapon specialization, spell penetration, and other bonuses.
Basically the shifter would change his armor/helmet/gloves/etc each time he switches a form to maximize their effectiveness to be even more versatile. Certain sets will complement certain forms. This should help them be more versatile and workable.
Make it simple and easy for non-number crunchers to understand which gear should be used for which form and know instantly which items would merge, etc. Because honestly, the merging rules in shifters are insane.
Probably give them custom potions too to help them further if need be.
The class is pretty cool and so far the pure shifters I met in game are usually good RPers, it's just sad to see them struggle so much in grinding.
Last edited by ticket on Tue, May 05 2009, 9:05 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Never understood why Bioware included all that item merging mumbo jumbo. If they made the forms better in the first place, it wouldn't have been needed.
Without merging, shifters would be 95% identical in their shapes (5% being the feats) and that impression is already hard to overcome with the graphics engine showing all shifters the same way.
More importantly, the merging ensures that shifters become better with their equipment and creates a somewhat level playing field no matter what equipment comes into the module. Fighters really progress beyond level 30, shifters could not.
TormakSaber wrote:
As for monk gloves, it's hardcoded into the bioware system that the glove slot *never ever ever* merges, so....
Hardcoded? It seems like the scripts handle this, so "softcoded". Or are the shifting scripts not in effect?
And I believe gloves were either forgotten or the designers didn't know what to do with them: Merge into armor (bracers with AC) or weapon (monk gloves)?
(And I really need to test merging further, because the script suggests that you can stack item properties if they merge into different creature items. NWNwiki doesn't mention that at all, so I'm confused ...)
Shifters already run the gamut for gear to swap around, largely due to the mythal system.
Well I'm thinking of making it easier for non-number crunchers. A shield called "Rakasha's Tower" with all the right feats/stats placed in there already or something to that effect so people would know instantly which gear to use for which form.
I mean, I see a lot of people struggling and asking for help on how to equip their fighter 30. What more, for a shifter where every from has different rules...
Not sure if I wrote this in one of my shifter rants, but my solution would be: If you see a certain item, apply certain bonuses when shifting, independent of what the item itself has. So a ring of the bear could be a +4 strength when shifted into a bear, but it has completely different properties when not shifted. Originally I thought about this, when I thought that merging would be removed almost entirely, though.
reading that huge post is too much effort. But in reply to the taking of 4 other levels to get an extra attack per round, the point is druids should be good as druid. Not having to become a monk or warrior to be any good.
in reply to the taking of 4 other levels to get an extra attack per round, the point is druids should be good as druid. Not having to become a monk or warrior to be any good.
Pure classes can work, but not all do. Pure class fighters are certainly not the best fighters. Pure druids work nicely on Amia, but a druid with some fighter levels can be a better fighter than a druid without fighter levels. That kind of makes sense, though, I think.
Admittedly, the current situation is that a few Monk levels are simply too strong on a Dragonshaper. That's why that particular combination will be balanced.
Besides: The 4th base attack is overrated, haste or flurry is better. For flurry, see monk problem above.
reading that huge post is too much effort. But in reply to the taking of 4 other levels to get an extra attack per round, the point is druids should be good as druid. Not having to become a monk or warrior to be any good.
So you're basically saying a druid, besides being an awesome caster, should automatically be a better fighter or monk than those classes, without taking either?
Uh, no. That's what clerics are for.
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Never understood why Bioware included all that item merging mumbo jumbo. If they made the forms better in the first place, it wouldn't have been needed.
I love the gear changing... it at least allows for some surprise value.
As said before: without gear changes, the only difference between shifters would be their class-division and their feats/skillpoints.
Which isn't a huge deal and would also make your character very easily readable, as you cannot swap those things around, + there's so little do with feats as a shifter that the class is almost negated that freedom as well.
(you need to give up 1 pre epic feat, and almost all epic feats are wisdom or shifter ones, except if you focus on one shape, but then you're just a fighter or caster in which the gear you've built for is a shifter shape)
However with gearmerging, the story turns the other way around:
if you merge into azer form, the mage uses cold damage not expecting the cold immunity ring. Different weapons to boost different armed shapes,...
And then there's the fact that you can't use anything except for potions, so you sort of NEED regen unless you want AoO's all over your low AC because you can't use healkits on low level (high level you'll be chucking pots like anybody else) + everybody running around in freedom gear while you would be forced to rely on easily dispelled potions,....
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Good replies, particularly from Mr Mago, thanks for taking the time to read my post. Let me see how well I can address the concerns that have been brought up. Then we can crunch some numbers.
To preface this I'll have to admit my ignorance of the full range of gear sets available on Amia, I've only been seriously playing for a few months and I have only recently got a character to epic levels. The equipment parameters I'm operating in are based on are purely what I've observed or gathered through hearsay.
So yeah, with so many AB boosting items, +10 could certainly be overkill, although it is important to consider that only potion-based buffs are realistic if the duration is anything less than 5 turns because you have to unshift and re-shift anytime you want to renew your buffs. And for most epic forms you get a mere 3 shifts a day.
Perhaps +1 AB per four levels, capping at +5 at 20 shifter levels would be more appropriate, if still leaning towards the high end. However, consider that in order to get 20 shifter your base AB will at the very best be 15 at the end of pre-epics, making it impossible to get 4 attacks per round and it yields a pretty low AB in general.
I revise my proposal to yield +1 AB per four shifter levels and no AC bonus.
As for what the minimal AB and AC to be viable on Amia, I don't have a clear number, since I've only seen a portion of the PvE areas on Amia. But from what I've seen, if you don't have about 42 AB and 50 AC by level 30 or late epics as a melee build, you will be struggling. (DR, concealment, immunities and stacks of HP can augment this quite a bit.)
Alright, now it's time for some numbers!
Lets lay out a couple of templates for comparison:
1.) Lazy Level 30 Human Fighter
- Just slightly better than hitting nwn "default" every time you level up. Consequently, the build is pure fail and shouldn't be expected to be viable, I include it just as a benchmark.
- I would consider this a baseline for any melee class, there really isn't any reason any logical (melee oriented) build should have lower AB and AC than this. Damage output is another matter.
2.) Competent Human Melee Build
- I'll be going with a typical 12 Fighter/ 16 Weapon Master/ 2 Rogue setup.
- It can't hold a candle to a divine fighter or assorted Bard/RDD cheese, but it is a solid, viable build.
- Melee-oriented shifters ought be about on par with this build in terms of AB. But shifters should have far less damage output (No weapon master or huge strength bonus) and will suffer from a lack of UMD.
- AC can and should be less, although that will vary by the shape you use. (Immunity and DR heavy forms should not get much AC, for obvious reasons.)
3.) Shifter using Risen Lord Shape
- Standard, Human, non-wisdom based melee-oriented shifter build.
- For the sake of argument I'll set the build as the best possible maximization of base stats by taking 15 levels of fighter (or substitute your favorite base 4 melee class here, it won't make much difference), 5 levels of druid and 10 levels of shifter.
- The best form at your disposal will be Risen Lord, without a doubt.
- I will also be pumping DEX as a stat since it is the only physical stat that merges.
Optimal Pure Fighter Stats at Level 30, assuming +4 Gear and maxed attribute bonuses across the board:
- Keep in mind this doesn't account for UMD advantages with Imp Invis and Flame Wep scrolls.
Shifter using Risen Lord Shape
AB Calculation:
BAB: 23
STR: +9 Mod (29) - The highest bonus you can get without having someone else cast a max roll of empowered bull's strength.
WF: +1
EWF: +2
EP: +1
EB: +5
AB: 41
AC Calculation:
Base: 10
DEX: +12 (34) - Boosted from a base Dex of 25, remember no gauntlet slot means no easy dex boosting item, but I assume there might be some other kind of +4 item +5 from cat's grace.
AS: +2
Tumble: +3
Armor: +4
Barkskin: +3
Risen Lord AC: +13
AC: 47
In conclusion, the most optimized melee shifter on the offense yields something significantly inferior (41 AB) to a Pure Fighter (47 AB) or WM Fighter (50 AB).
However, on the defensive, (47 AC) as compared to (47 AC) and (51 AC). Plus a raft of awesome immunities, risen lord appears to be solid defensively. However you must consider the fact that when shifted into an undead shape it is completely impossible to heal yourself (heal potions kill you and no medkit usage allowed). Worst of all when making such a character, you would have to play a fighter maximizing nothing but DEX and weapon focusing in a scythe. And you can't even take Undead Shape until level 30!
It is a pretty poor build, by epics you will be getting hit by most creatures every round, anything that deals bludgeoning damage will own you (with no chance of popping off a healing potion). And with 41 AB, you will struggle to deal damage. Maybe by loading up on DR gear and regeneration you can manage to tank some mobs, but at that point, why even bother with bumping up your AC? Plus most hunting areas have spell slinger support that deal direct damage and you won't be able to force many failed concentration checks with your poor AB and small threat range (18-20 at best).
Now let's look at this build with my proposed changes:
The New Shifter using Risen Lord!
AB Calculation:
BAB: 23
STR: +10 Mod (31) - You can use a range of equipment slots to max this.
WF: +1
EWF: +2
EP: +1
EB: +5
Shifter AB Bonus: +2
AB: 44
AC Calculation:
Base: 10
DEX: +13 (37) - Boosted from a base Dex of 25, now we can max it.
AS: +2
Tumble: +3
Armor: +4
Shield: +4
Nat Arm: +4
Deflect: +4
Dodge: +4
(Delete the invisible dodge bonus of +13)
AC: 48
As you can see, the AB gets a needed boost (41 AB) to (44 AB), putting it at a useable level. AC marginally increases from 47 AC to 48 AC. And this is with a fairly realistic build that absolutely maximizes AC and AB!
Furthermore, with +4 AC taking up 5 equipment slots instead of 1 and with more stat bonus gear, the shifter must make compromises between fitting for AC or regen and DR items. In all likelyhood, undead shifters will just opt for the DR/regen approach to defense, which is actually more effective under the current system with the automatic nice fat +13 dodge bonus.
If the AC is still a concern, I would propose that you cap the DEX for risen lord at 10 which would knock the max AC down to 41.
Well that's enough for now, I'd like to address the AB bonus issue at some point, but first I need to know what kind of items are available that add an AB bonus, whether they are potion, scroll or item based, and their durations.
So please read and respond, thanks!
PS: And oh yeah, death to dragon shape and monk/shifter builds! It's responsible for 95% of the brokeness and general animosity to the shifter class. Personally I'd like to see shifter have a non-lawful alignment restriction like barbarian (and sorcerer too for that matter)! >_>
Risen Lord is slated as a con based DR facetank: A Risen Lord simply shouldn't have acceptable tumbletank (49-52 etc) AC with all the physical immunities it has.
I already have the hard numbers for several types of melee and caster builds and am balancing based on those numbers. Ruce as alwyas is a big help there. Your post is helpful, but it's info I already know and have so you're reinventing the wheel a bit. The input is good, though!
Quote:
Base: 10 DEX: +13 (37) - Boosted from a base Dex of 25, now we can max it. AS: +2 Tumble: +3 Armor: +4 Shield: +4 Nat Arm: +4 Deflect: +4 Dodge: +4
I'm also afraid that's not possible. The way merging works, we simply can't add anything but deflection or dodge. The only other workaround is force equipping a suit of armor or a shield, but that's not going to be affected by the merge at all: You could be wearing +5 full plate, and the +5 AC will go on the hide, but if the form is wearing +1 padded, that's what you'll get in the form. Bioware simply made it a very messy process. We're working on the AC problem.
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Yeah, I thought you guys might already had a lot of these numbers sitting around. I just figured I'd post all of it anyways to promote discussion and maybe help the average Amia player learn a bit more about the shifter class.
TormakSaber wrote:
I'm also afraid that's not possible. The way merging works, we simply can't add anything but deflection or dodge. The only other workaround is force equipping a suit of armor or a shield, but that's not going to be affected by the merge at all: You could be wearing +5 full plate, and the +5 AC will go on the hide, but if the form is wearing +1 padded, that's what you'll get in the form. Bioware simply made it a very messy process. We're working on the AC problem.
I'm pretty sure there must be some kind of work around. I've been on a sever that managed to get each AC type to merge correctly. And from the look of it, somebody has made an script override that does that on NWN vault:
Disco's not keen on using other people's work, he and Terra are sort of a "I'll do it myself or not at all" on that.
Re: wyrmling breath: It will get scaled up.
Re: Special Abilities; I foresee them becoming infinite. The 'pershift" was a poor workaround on Bio's part IMO and I see no reason not to change it especially when it's the entire point of the form.
Some unarmed forms may get weapons; notable changes are the golem forms and possibly the vampire form. I don't see either of the "big two" weapon forms (Risen Lord, Kobold Commando) changing the weapons they have, so you won't be affected. But don't be surprised if you see a Iron Golem using a Warhammer, or something.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Ahhh, I see. By giving more of the forms weapons, you decrease yet further the usefulness of monk-multiclassing. Thats pretty cool.
One thing though...to give an example, the minotaur pre-epic and the minotaur post epic use a battleaxe and greataxe respectively. Its a real pain as you'd have to take improved critical twice for example (im not sure if the new forms will come with certain feats or anything). Furthermore, its suboptimal as its not even as if it has a shield or anything in the offhand...or at least deflect arrows. A similar thing occurs with the drow form. Would it be too unbalancing to give these forms something in the offhand or make them use great weapons or something?
I remember seeing somewhere that the battleaxe is actually a greataxe with a different model... not sure of that though cuz I can't find where I read that.
A similar thing occurs with the drow form. Would it be too unbalancing to give these forms something in the offhand or make them use great weapons or something?
I don't know if it's possible - if there's no entry for shields in the polymorph 2da, then it'll not work.
Mechanically it makes no difference; if we want to give it the AC from a nice hefty towershield, we'll just bump AC up by +7, but the poor drowsie does look a little forgetful minus the shield. The Minotaur looks okay, though.
I guess a doublesword looks more defensive and drowy than any other twohander.
I remember seeing somewhere that the battleaxe is actually a greataxe with a different model... not sure of that though cuz I can't find where I read that.
Give a large creature a large weapon and it gets the medium weapon model - try it yourself in the toolset sometime. I had Vornang running around (drider) with a heavy flail in one hand and a scimitar in the other, and she actually only appeared to have a flail and a scim.
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I remember seeing somewhere that the battleaxe is actually a greataxe with a different model... not sure of that though cuz I can't find where I read that.
Give a large creature a large weapon and it gets the medium weapon model - try it yourself in the toolset sometime. I had Vornang running around (drider) with a heavy flail in one hand and a scimitar in the other, and she actually only appeared to have a flail and a scim.
Nyet, giving a Frost Giant a greataxe, procs a greataxe. Flails just look very similar. the minotaur does indeed use a battleaxe pre epic and a greataxe in epic.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
If you want the stats of a powerbuild, you'll also have to multi-class.
And as such, you can't expect a pure class druid to compare to the strongest builds out there.
But that depends entirely on what you would define as "good".
The issue with monk / DS is that it's -too- powerful. 82 AC, more or less immune to Bigby's and KD's, 800 HP and 40+ Fort save, True Seeing.
Very nasty.
Not to mention if the Dragon can't hit someone, they can get away with standing flat footed and breathing fire 1-2 times a round. Instant hit.
Not against Monks/SD's and stuff.
They get enough reflex to make it, and can half the damage on a succesful throw, or even null it.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."
Yes, I'd like to know more about what is happening to dragonshape pretty please. I was going to create one, but not knowing what is going to happen could be a downfall.
I'm not sure if Dragonshape is getting any changes (I doubt it, but I haven't read the discussion in a while and I forgot!), but no shape is going to be weakened. The Shifter forms are getting improvements. This simply comes with the fact that Monk Wisdom AC bonus won't apply in the shapes. (You can't very well improve the shapes for other people without making monk/shifters even more powerful otherwise.) So if you're making a build without Monk Wisdom AC bonus, you're good. That's the thing you ought to keep in mind when you build new characters: don't rely on that one feature which will be disabled in the (near?) future.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Yes, I'd like to know more about what is happening to dragonshape pretty please. I was going to create one, but not knowing what is going to happen could be a downfall.
I don't know what will happen to Dragonshape. Sorry. We just haven't gotten there yet. I'm at the bottom shapes working up.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
... Alright. I don't typically open my mouth on these forum things because I generally feel that I don't know what I'm talking about and people are probably only going to roll their eyes, but here goes.
Just got a shifter/monk to level thirty. Didn't know it was going to get nerfed beyond all hell, so naturally I'm not stoked with you people at the moment. As it sits, I've got (without particularly grand gear, mind) about a 76 ac, buffed and in improved expertise mode.
Fort save is about a 30, sometimes a bit higher, depending on the generosity of the few buffs I get.
I lose about as often as I win in a PvP, because people have an affinity for slamming True Strike pots with abandon, and dev critting my face off.
Any self-respecting mage can win a fight against me, with a timestop (maybe two) and some maximized Isaac's Greater Missle Storms.
Seems a little like we're worrying about nerfing what doesn't particularly need to be nerfed. It isn't even as though there are a billion shifter monks running amok on the server, swatting all you "non-cheese" builds.
... My point is that a monk who can assume dragon shape and kill everything in sight -sounds- scary. Until you give the dev critting barbarian with a scimitar and a fifty-some-odd AB a true strike pot or thirty.
*shrug* My worry is that this nerf takes effect, my AC drops ten points or more, and I simply lose every PvP with a melee build that has dev crit and a true strike potion, which is of course to say all of them. I understand that the other shapes are getting a bump up. That's great, because as it stands, the only particularly useful ones are dragon, kobold, and mind flayer.
The dragon comes equipped with decent stats, high hp, relatively decent attack rolls, nice saving throws, and all around awesomeness, yes. That's why you can't get that shape until much later in your character's progression. All those things don't save the shifter from the almighty Dev.
I don't feel that it makes any sense for a monk to become a dragon and then suddenly forget how to fight without armor on and for that reason lose his wisdom ac bonus. Kind of a silly rp factor. I suppose I can still win fights by spamming improved knockdown like a git, if you folks would like, and I'll still be plenty scary for rogue types... but that's about it.
Define "too uber" and you'll find that about 75% of the people with decent characters probably all fall within that group, if not for the build itself, than for the goodies that are -easily- attainable in game. True strike potions are a dime a dozen on Amia, and that more than evens the odds against even the almighty dragon shifter, with his (82 was it?) AC. If that number is true, certainly do something to knock it down some, but removing the wisdom bonus to shifting altogether seems a little bit beyond ridiculous. Naturally, few, if any are going to agree, because currently have this build playing on the server.
Hellball is uber (and no one wants to nerf it). Dev crit is uber (and no one wants to nerf it). Monk dragon should remain uber (... Because I will cry if it gets nerfed?).
*Mega-sigh*
I don't mean to be a whine bag because my admittedly cheesy build is getting a huge kick in the junk, but sheesh guys. The monk shifter community is relatively small compared to the fighter rdd with a fourty something dev crit save, isn't it?
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