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DolphinRacer wrote:

Quote:

Spell VFX:

The visual results of spells are visible to other PC's and fall under the WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) rule. For example, a spell that causes leaves to whirl around a PC or the stone VFX from Stoneskin actually makes the player look like they have leaves whirling around them or are made of stone.

The two exceptions to this rule are the circulating dots emitted from auras and invisibility. A PC does not see a whirl of red dots orbiting a Blackguard nor are the auras of a Knight Commander visible (though any PC will feel the effects should they enter an aura) just as a character under invisibility that eases too close to another character can be seen by the game engine, however unless your character has True Seeing or See Invisibility enchanted on them they do not see the character. These VFX's are left for ease of game play and are not visible in an In Character sense.

This is from the rules forum. If you are a blackguard and come walking up in dark brooding armor to a group of people, or you just walk up to a lone person, and have the aura on, expect them to react and maybe accuse you of something.

I am wholly and strongly against the elimination of aura visual effects. Its an aura, you are actively impacting the world around you, people should and as the rules stand are capable of detecting that manipulation, they feel the extreme darkness and evil (or inspirational force for the KC I guess) around you, and should be allowed to react accordingly. If you steep yourself in pure insane absolute evil as a bargain for power, you should have to face consequences and not be able to hide an aura of pure despair from the world. If you want to be sneaky evil, don't be something so purely evil that it basically oozes an evil BO everywhere it goes.

Aura of Despair
3 Blackguard levels, n/a Wisdom
The blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

this is what is says , nothing more, nothing less. I honestly feel that this is being used as an excuse to metagame. BG are not all cookie cutter either. They don't all make pacts with bloodthirsty powers such as Malar. Some may make a pact with Graz'zt or a demoness in his court. With that being said, it would be wholly against the nature of anyone following Graz'zt to give away his or her true nature to anyone but others like them and use guille and trickery before resorting to violence. I think it's absolutely ridiculous for anyone to respond to an active BG aura unless in pvp or just prior to becoming hostile. The BG if played long enough will likely get an untrustworthy rep if anything, but oozing evil? That is a stretch if I've ever heard one.

inprison666 wrote:

... oozing evil? That is a stretch if I've ever heard one.

I agree, if for no other reason than that it's a very thin and blurry line between "you can feel my horrible horrible evil" and "you must feel my horrible horrible evil." I categorically refuse to have my character's recations be dictated by raw game mechanics unless absolutely necessary; i.e., if you can actually impose on me a fearful state (or intimidated or despairing or whatever) via aura of despair or whatever other game effect, then that's great, and I'll react accordingly. But if you're just walking down a street with an aura up that doesn't have any observable effect on me, then it's not appropriate to expect me to have any reaction at all. Telling me that the mere act of standing near a certain character is enough to dictate how I'm supposed to feel is beyond the reasonable scope of the ability (or any ability that allows no saving throw, IMHO). If you want me to react IC in a certain way, you're going to have to either dictate my reactions mechanically (put a fear effect on me, for example) or convey how scary and badass you are via impressive RP. A mere circle of sparkles on the ground achieves neither.

Well, in PnP Blackguards receive, at level 1 of the PrC, something called "Aura of Evil". That's because in PnP there are Detect Alignment spells, as well as means to thwart such. In NWN BGs only get the Aura of Despair which is /entirely different/. So no, BGs don't "ooze evil". Even in PnP, where they specifically have the Aura of Evil, one would need to have cast a Detect Evil spell to notice this.

"Malign aura" would imply evil, darkness, corruption, depression, dread, you know, malign things. You are exuding malignness all around you, oozing it as it were.

I also failed to make another thing clear in my post and I apologize. I'm not saying that it needs to be a permanent effect, in fact I do believe that it should be something that can be restrained when needed to hide what you are, but if you are walking around with the Aura, it should be something people have a chance to notice and react to. This would allow for both the overt blackguard and the not so overt blackguard.

I've never taken it into this line of consideration. I'll reconsider my stance on the aura I suppose. But I just don't feel like being a hypocrite about it. Telling the other classes not to use cop outs and then walking around without my aura on.

thing about the aura is that you kinda should put it on when out "hunting" since your "enemies" would be able to feel it. This opens the whole fellow party member who you as a BG are trying to lull into a false sense of security, but cannot because they metagame you and pretend to see it or "feel" it. It is totally NOT like dragon wings or horns. I will also say again that BG usually have a high CHA. With a high CHA you are allowedt to be charming, lie well, persuade folks to do things they wouldn't normally do, or on the flipside scare the living crap out of them. So please tell me how this malign aura that is only felt by enemies make a BG ooze evil or malignness and make folks mystically wanna stand outside your aura and look at you funny, thwarting any plans you have to use your skills to trick them, or anything else for that matter? At that point the CHA score becomes meaningless and a CE fighter with a 8 CHA would have a better chance of using trickery or seduction to get the desired evil result. This type of metagaming destroys good RP as much or more as a RDD hiding their wings.

inprison666 wrote:

thing about the aura is that you kinda should put it on when out "hunting" since your "enemies" would be able to feel it. This opens the whole fellow party member who you as a BG are trying to lull into a false sense of security, but cannot because they metagame you and pretend to see it or "feel" it. It is totally NOT like dragon wings or horns. I will also say again that BG usually have a high CHA. With a high CHA you are allowedt to be charming, lie well, persuade folks to do things they wouldn't normally do, or on the flipside scare the living crap out of them. So please tell me how this malign aura that is only felt by enemies make a BG ooze evil or malignness and make folks mystically wanna stand outside your aura and look at you funny, thwarting any plans you have to use your skills to trick them, or anything else for that matter? At that point the CHA score becomes meaningless and a CE fighter with a 8 CHA would have a better chance of using trickery or seduction to get the desired evil result. This type of metagaming destroys good RP as much or more as a RDD hiding their wings.

If you are not trying to get noticed as evil, don't use it while hunting. *Gasp* There would be nobody pointing a gun at your head telling you you have to use it. You could get by without it I'm sure particularly if you have a party. That said, once you use it, you are projecting for a malign aura, your disheartening BO, people within it will feel its effects, you are actively manipulating the world. It may not directly impede people that are not aggressively attacking you but it would still make them feel uncomfortable. If you want to be sneaky, actually make the effort to be sneaky, don't flaunt all your evil associated powers that are, by server rules, noticeable then try to whine about people metagaming you being not on the level. Its not metagaming if you start slinging around necromancy, or breath fire, or walk around with aura of pure despair emanating from you when you are the only person it could be emanating from. I'm sorry but to me the arguments from people about the aura mostly smack of the point of the original post of people being unwilling to accept the negative consequences of class choice (this also applies to race too)

DolphinRacer wrote:

inprison666 wrote:

thing about the aura is that you kinda should put it on when out "hunting" since your "enemies" would be able to feel it. This opens the whole fellow party member who you as a BG are trying to lull into a false sense of security, but cannot because they metagame you and pretend to see it or "feel" it. It is totally NOT like dragon wings or horns. I will also say again that BG usually have a high CHA. With a high CHA you are allowedt to be charming, lie well, persuade folks to do things they wouldn't normally do, or on the flipside scare the living crap out of them. So please tell me how this malign aura that is only felt by enemies make a BG ooze evil or malignness and make folks mystically wanna stand outside your aura and look at you funny, thwarting any plans you have to use your skills to trick them, or anything else for that matter? At that point the CHA score becomes meaningless and a CE fighter with a 8 CHA would have a better chance of using trickery or seduction to get the desired evil result. This type of metagaming destroys good RP as much or more as a RDD hiding their wings.

If you are not trying to get noticed as evil, don't use it while hunting. *Gasp* There would be nobody pointing a gun at your head telling you you have to use it. You could get by without it I'm sure particularly if you have a party. That said, once you use it, you are projecting for a malign aura, your disheartening BO, people within it will feel its effects, you are actively manipulating the world. It may not directly impede people that are not aggressively attacking you but it would still make them feel uncomfortable. If you want to be sneaky, actually make the effort to be sneaky, don't flaunt all your evil associated powers that are, by server rules, noticeable then try to whine about people metagaming you being not on the level. Its not metagaming if you start slinging around necromancy, or breath fire, or walk around with aura of pure despair emanating from you when you are the only person it could be emanating from. I'm sorry but to me the arguments from people about the aura mostly smack of the point of the original post of people being unwilling to accept the negative consequences of class choice (this also applies to race too)

you arent understanding the AoD and refuse to

Aura of Despair
3 Blackguard levels, n/a Wisdom
The blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

ma·lign

1.criticize somebody spitefully: to criticize somebody or something in a spiteful and false or misleading way
2.harmful or evil: harmful or evil in nature, effect, or intention
3.wishing to harm others: having or showing a desire to cause harm or pain to others

au·ra

1.distinctive quality: a characteristic or distinctive impression created by somebody or something
2.force emanating from somebody or something: a force that is said to surround all people and objects, discernible, often as a bright glow, only to people of unusual psychic sensitivity
3.warning sensation before epileptic episode: a distinctive sensation or visual disturbance that may signal the beginning of an epileptic episode or a migraine headache

Hrm....funny, I think I understand it just fine. Its a willful exuding of an evil force in the surrounding area. Something that, while active, should be detectable by anyone on at least some level, even if its exact source is not detectable.

I think it's the "causes all enemies" part that he's talking about.

Which is a part I think is somewhat silly. If you are projecting an aura of evil, or despair, or whatever a malign aura is, people around you should all feel it, not just the people that happen to not like you.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Which is a part I think is somewhat silly. If you are projecting an aura of evil, or despair, or whatever a malign aura is, people around you should all feel it, not just the people that happen to not like you.

But that's what it says. There are plenty of spells that only affect enemies, as well.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Aura of Despair
3 Blackguard levels, n/a Wisdom
The blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

There's a keyword in the fucking text. I bolded and changed the color of it for you.
Enemies refer to those things that when you press P come up as 'Hostile'. If the blackguard has not hostiled you, you do not feel the aura.
If it was how you described it would be, "All creatures within 10 feet take a -2 penalty on all saving throws." It doesn't say that though.

Psst, the vast VAST majority of those spells are targeted, not projected auras.

And to inprison, I think you are missing the point where I think that's silly and also where the in place server rules say that its detectable. Accusing people of metagaming something they can sense per rules posted on the forum is kinda...low.

DolphinRacer wrote:

Psst, the vast VAST majority of those spells are targeted, not projected auras.

And to inprison, I think you are missing the point where I think that's silly and also where the in place server rules say that its detectable. Accusing people of metagaming something they can sense per rules posted on the forum is kinda...low.

Trying to justify metagame based on an in game visual effect that is there to show the player where 10 feet is, is kinda low.

The ability says it affects enemies only, therefore it affects enemies only. That's pretty much the only argument that needs to be made. The server rule you're citing to the contrary doesn't exist, DolphinRacer. (I thought it did, too, but we were wrong.)

You're not allowed to metagame that someone is a blackguard just because they have a red dotted circle aura that only a blackguard can get. Simple.

Or bard. Don't forget anyone who can cast spells with similar effects.

//tangent

If you're playing a bard that people don't know is a bard you're doing something very wrong.

You could even take the argument further and say enemies don't necessarily feel and identify it. It doesn't say "enemies take a penalty to saving throws and realize this." You certainly aren't aware of all magical and biological processes taking place in your body and your brain. Not unless you're a monk or something. "Oh damn, my reaction time is down 10%. That man must be emitting an evil aura!" is beyond the scope of believability. I imagine the interpretation of "Shit, that guy means business and I didn't realize he might hurt me until we got into it" is much closer to the truth.

If something has a negative effect on you, it's malign (harmful) by definition. Trying to read anything more into that word is grasping at straws. The name implies an effect of desperation, but that's hardly something you should enforce across the board.

DolphinRacer wrote:

I am wholly and strongly against the elimination of aura visual effects. Its an aura, you are actively impacting the world around you, people should and as the rules stand are capable of detecting that manipulation, they feel the extreme darkness and evil (or inspirational force for the KC I guess) around you, and should be allowed to react accordingly. If you steep yourself in pure insane absolute evil as a bargain for power, you should have to face consequences and not be able to hide an aura of pure despair from the world. If you want to be sneaky evil, don't be something so purely evil that it basically oozes an evil BO everywhere it goes.

This. I agree with this 100%. The aura is what it is because it's that kind of Evil. It doesn't just affect enemies for the hell of it, and it doesn't just randomly "work mechanically". There's a /reason/ it works as it does. It scares them. It leaves them uneasy and nervous. It's EVIL. And IMO, if you're that much evil, people are going to feel it. My aasimar pally would FEEL that kind of evil, because it's so antithetical to everything she believes in and /is/, physically.

But that's just my 2 cents. I don't think it's metagaming to feel that aura, and i will never treat someone as though they had metagamed it if I make a BG and have the aura on and they react.

Liz wrote:

The ability says it affects enemies only, therefore it affects enemies only. That's pretty much the only argument that needs to be made. The server rule you're citing to the contrary doesn't exist, DolphinRacer. (I thought it did, too, but we were wrong.)

So a rule actually posted in the rule forums doesn't exist? Someone might want to update it then.

If I cast Wail of the Banshee and someone in my party who's in the blast radius goes "hold up", busts out the rest menu, asks for a saving throw DC and rolls fortitude, then uses the rest menu to kill themselves, I'm not going to resurrect that person because I admire their roleplay. I'm going to consider them crazy.

Aura of Despair works that way because it's phrased that way. You're not an antagonist? You feel nothing.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

If I cast Wail of the Banshee and someone in my party who's in the blast radius goes "hold up", busts out the rest menu, asks for a saving throw DC and rolls fortitude, then uses the rest menu to kill themselves, I'm not going to resurrect that person because I admire their roleplay. I'm going to consider them crazy.

....I really want to do this now.

Maybe I wasn't being clear on what I'm trying to argue in this post so I'll put it in really big letters to make it clear:

I PERSONALLY DO NOT AGREE THAT THIS AURA SHOULD ONLY BE DETECTABLE BY PEOPLE WHO ARE OPENLY HOSTILE TO YOU. YOU ARE PROJECTING A FORCE (IN THIS CASE OF EVIL, IN CASE OF OTHER CLASSES OF INSPIRATION OR PROTECTION) FORTH FROM YOURSELF AND IT SHOULD BE DETECTABLE. THE SAME SHOULD APPLY TO -ALL- AURAS AS THEY ALL MANIPULATE THE WORLD AROUND YOU, EVEN IF THE SPELLS ONLY ACTUALL HURTS OR HELPS CERTAIN CATEGORIES OF TARGETS. THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION, AND I FELT THAT THE POSTED RULE SOMEWHAT SUPPORTS THIS.

Does that clarify where I stand on this? Cause I'm tired of this back and forth and being accused of being deliberately misunderstanding.

And this thread is about AoD and other such class related effects, not spells. Don't get me started on area spells not affecting allies, I don't agree with a lot of those either. This is about you doing something, making a choice with your character, and giving them abilities that come from them doing incredibly evil or inspiring things, and having to face the consequences (or benefits depending on the situation) of that instead of being some undetectable super ninja of evil.

That said, to everyone accusing me of being a metagamer or encouraging metagaming on this count.

viewtopic.php?f=110&t=67973

Look under the Spell VFX rule, it specifically says, in reference to BG and KC auras, that "Any PC entering the aura can feel the effects." Ain't metagaming shit yo.

The rule is poorly worded and probably wasn't considered thoroughly at the time. Or maybe it says exactly what it means. But I don't see what weight it has in this discussion: whatever its intent, it is wrong and should be changed.

In the case if the knight commander its granted you feel something front the auras. Positive or negative... I don't see how a blackguard can justify folks not noticing it their aura. I think dolphinracer has it bang on. if folks are gonna cry about metagaming i think I'll just laugh. I'd rather not risk getting a fall widget on my paladin. If a player does have a complaint they can resolve it with a DM overseeing the issue. I'd love a DM verdict in this and a ruling.

So, if we got detect alignment and other pnp abilities.

My character has this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm

Terra_777 wrote:

So, if we got detect alignment and other pnp abilities.

My character has this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm

That would be the sauce, unfortunately you'd have to get approval form everyone present to use it and I think to have permanency would be impossible

I've read a lot of sources that back up the argument that a BG evil is only detectable by a detect evil spell that is successful. BG also get conceal alignment in PNP rules.

So, for the most part I'm putting my BG away since the threat of MGing isn'y ruled away and folks are so hell bent on knowing every little thing like he stinks or something.

The only question you should be asking yourself is: would it be good for it to be detectable to all? How do you presume it will advance the collective story and mood of the server?

CelestialDante unwittingly summed up the problem with people's attitudes and explained why no alignment-detection abilities should ever exist:

Quote:

I'd rather not risk getting a fall widget on my paladin.

If players are more concerned with winning and playing it safe than creating a gritty, complex and exciting setting to tell stories in, we have a serious problem. You couldn't possibly argue that the ability for people to instantly pinpoint the bad guy in a crowd is better for the server than the ambiguity, risk and mystery of not knowing for sure and encouraging character concepts like Blackguards of Graz'zt, Gargauth and Mask infiltrating society and charming their way up the ranks. That's pretty much the archetype of the character, after all. Like I said before, there are several canon Blackguard NPCs in high positions in paladin orders and elsewhere. If the opposition had their way, these stories would not be possible.

And to be honest: we should be suspicious by default of anyone wanting their character to know more, rather than less. That suggests a desire for some advantage, rather than embracing challenge.

IronAngel wrote:

Like I said before, there are several canon Blackguard NPCs in high positions in paladin orders and elsewhere. If the opposition had their way, these stories would not be possible.

Sure they would.
Undetectable alignment makes your alignment show up as nothing, which would imply you are true neutral if they had the patience to use all four detect spells on you. It lasts 24 hours. Is a level 1 spell for bards and level 2 spell for clerics and paladins. I'm sure if it was an in game spell you could buy a wand for 10k that would last you two months of continuous in game time. If you didn't need to go that long you could get potions or scrolls.

For sorcerors and wizards (and anyone with UMD), you have misdirection. Toss this spell on that Lawful Good amulet you're wearing and that blackguard pact you made to Cyric means nothing to the world. Also a level 2 spell that can easily be made into potion, scroll or wand form.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undete ... gnment.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm

Yelling the same thing you've said before doesn't make the point any stronger, really. It just illustrates that as an opinion, you're worried people will disregard it unless it's huge.

Yossarin wrote:

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

If I cast Wail of the Banshee and someone in my party who's in the blast radius goes "hold up", busts out the rest menu, asks for a saving throw DC and rolls fortitude, then uses the rest menu to kill themselves, I'm not going to resurrect that person because I admire their roleplay. I'm going to consider them crazy.

....I really want to do this now.

To be honest, that's all I was thinking as I wrote it.

Cerpin: Undetectable Alignment has nothing to do with Aura of Despair, though. I am saying, there are plenty of Blackguards in the setting who manage to conceal their nature. If Aura of Despair was immediately identifiable to everyone (which the rules clearly say it isn't) or even to anyone who got mad at them ("enemies") they would have been caught long ago. They haven't.

Not to mention it wouldn't make any sense from the perspective of Blackguards and their masters: why would they receive/give an ability that only makes it harder for the BG to do their job; to scheme in society if that's what the pact is about in the first place? Rules should always yield to common sense; common sense dictates unequivocally that a chosen champion of the god of persuasion, corruption and political schemes wouldn't broadcast his vileness to those he wants to deceive. Why would he barter for such a liability in the first place?

And either way, I fail to see what those spells and counter-spells matter. You make it seem like it's a game of moves and counter-moves, of players trying to win. And sadly, we do have to role-play within the confines of a game. But fortunately, the game we use (NWN/Amia) doesn't feature all those unsavory details of D&D. So trying to apply them will always require an argument; why is this good for our game? Luckily, we don't have to just accept every aspect of D&D by default, because we're not playing D&D.

Yes iron but i have been told my paladin can infact feel the evil aura from a blackguard. If he wants to hide it then i would not know would I? So if a paladin does come across this nefarious individual it is his duty to stop it. Failing to do so may result in the death of innocents etc. Its a risk he can not take and his/her god will not look favourably on the wuss that failed to do what is necessary.

You should play that character class. If you do not play the paladin class your character will suffer the consequences. thats not unwittingly coming across a problem. Its stating facts of what some characters MUST do.

What would you do if you had a paladin character who comes across a balck guard with the aura active? Your paladin can sense the evil so do you ignore it? Ofcourse you shouldn't, failure to react may get a fall widget if a DM is watching and rightly so in my eyes.

So you believe you should be given easy information to make sure your character doesn't make mistakes? Isn't the very fact that your paladin simply "knows" that this man is an evil blaggard without any empirical evidence an inconvenience that forces you into contrived, unprovoked RP? Would it not be better if you did not in fact have the easy means to know and thus had to make more of an effort IC? That also opens up the possibility of being mistaken and taking the responsibility for it, which potential is necessary for any paladin RP that wishes to transcend the cookie-cutter.

We're not talking about how you need to react IC to the information you get, after all. We're talking about whether you should assume you get that information in the first place. If it's just falling you worry about, you should be happy to have one less headache. Ignorance is bliss. (That is not my argument, but it should convince those who worry about their PC's status.)

(Furthermore: a paladin who simply confronts a blackguard for "being evil" is probably overstepping his authority. But that will depend on the DM overseeing, I suppose.)

People getting confronted for "Being Evil" happens a lot.

I can't remember the exact thread, but BurningoutBright had a post about how she believes profiling in the Realms is not only acceptable but also status quo. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

People.... people are going to only quote that last line from here on out, aren't they.

CelestialDante wrote:

What would you do if you had a paladin character who comes across a balck guard with the aura active? Your paladin can sense the evil so do you ignore it? Ofcourse you shouldn't, failure to react may get a fall widget if a DM is watching and rightly so in my eyes.

1) My paladin would not sense the aura. He's not some magical radar on the lookout for evil homing beacons.

2) Even if he did have supernatural information, he wouldn't react to it. He couldn't; it wouldn't be honorable, lawful or good in his eyes (or probably the eyes of the multiverse). Every man is responsible for his actions, and invading someone's privacy by forcefully looking into their soul and subsequently condemning them based on that subjective indication of things they "must have done" in the past is not my idea of due process.

That's how my paladin would react. I'm not saying everyone must agree, but since you asked. If you choose to drive yourself into a corner, don't ask for OOC support to legitimize it.

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

I can't remember the exact thread, but BurningoutBright had a post about how she believes profiling in the Realms is not only acceptable but also status quo.

Perhaps to some extent. Moreso than in real life, probably. But it still feels like a cop-out: when you realize the simple and easy tools you've been given may not be quite as ethical and unproblematic as you'd assumed, you default to the "everyone does that" position. It might fly, but it's still not very admirable.

Joon argues against forced Detect Alignments, Zone of Truths and similar spells IC too.

Quote:

So you believe you should be given easy information to make sure your character doesn't make mistakes? Isn't the very fact that your paladin simply "knows" that this man is an evil blaggard without any empirical evidence an inconvenience that forces you into contrived, unprovoked RP?

A paladin ofcourse can make mistakes. My point is he has tools at his disposal granted to him by divine right to detect evil as it were. I never would rp my paladin "simply knowing" a black guard was evil if they don't have their aura active,

Quote:

..that forces you into contrived, unprovoked RP?

Its not unproked RP is that player CHOOSES to use the aura. I know full well ooc that some characters my paladin rps with are evil however my paladin does not know that

Quote:

That also opens up the possibility of being mistaken and taking the responsibility for it, which potential is necessary for any paladin RP that wishes to transcend the cookie-cutter.

As previously said he has the abilities as a gift from his/her God, to simply ignore the immense super evil aura from a character is not doing what that deity would wish, the paladin being ignorant of their duty deserves that fall. He may think better then of the abilities granted by his/her deity.

I am not speaking of all characters but a Paladin is a strict thing to RP, who can not simply ignore evil, granted I play a Tormtar at that. If he sees a blackguard he should aim to deter them from evil. If the blackguard is fixed to his nefarious cause then a paladin must do anything they can to stop them. Kudos to the low level folks tackling an epic toon.

I just can't help but think of Mathus and "HE'S GOT THE RED EYE" through all of this Alignment-revealing discussion.

Personally, I'm all for spells that force situations by detecting Alignment, compelling truth, and so forth because the countermeasures also exist. Scared of being pinged as Evil? Find a way to get Undetectable Alignment or any of the other Alignment-obscuring options out there in D&D. Worried about walking into a Zone of Truth? Better get your Will Save up, or invest in things that prevent you from being affected by Mind-Affecting Compulsions. Worried about being Legend Lore'd? Don't ever advance beyond 13th level.

There were some scenes fairly recently that happened where I was a bit terrified that I'd be put up against a Zone of Truth, and I was pretty sure that because of circumstances, my character wouldn't have a very good chance of beating the Save. When it didn't happen, I was actually really disappointed and even kind of annoyed in a way - I mean, if that wasn't the situation to use a Zone of Truth, then what is? I felt let down, really.

There was also a situation, years ago, when another character of mine was interrogated under a Zone of Truth and she beat the Save. But the person who had cast it was confident that she was under the compulsion and that no falsehoods came her lips. Because of being 'forced' into that situation by a spell, it took the RP in a direction it probably couldn't have gone otherwise, because the other character believed in their own magic to the point it colored their reception of my character's answers. If there had been no Zone of Truth, I imagine that character would have doubted whatever mine would have said, truth or lie, and it would have been stuck in a stalemate of, WELL I GUESS THERE'S NO SENSE MOTIVE SO THERE'S NO REAL WAY TO INTERROGATE YOU, SO IDFK.

One of the things about RP that distinguishes it from simply writing a story by yourself is being in situations that 'force' you. They challenge you to deal with them, and sometimes it sucks and your house of cards comes crashing down around your head because you happened to be lax on a countermeasure the one time some Paladin is idly scanning about the square with Detect Evil. But that's how it should work. While that can destroy some characters, it can also allow the same character in another situation to excel in ways they might not have been able to when they can 'trick the system' and pretend to be non-Evil. Suddenly, there's 'proof' that they aren't Evil - and the Paladin or whoever is forced into a situation of their own: do they believe their righteous talent, or do they doubt it and in doing so, doubt their own conviction and clarity?

'Forceful' and 'inconsiderate' spells don't end RP. They provide a stimulus. Good, bad, or neutral.

Celestial: you say your paladin has gifts from his god and that he can feel the Blackguard's aura. But that's what's being challenged. You in fact do not get Detect Evil in Amia unless other players let you use it, and you do not feel the Blackguard's aura unless you're hostile. The only unclear part is whether you can identify someone as a Blackguard simply by virtue of the saving throw penalty when you've set them to Hostile. I don't think so, though you might certainly feel something.

Letum: I don't argue that they can't be put to good use. (Well, Detect Alignment can't because Alignment is inherently flawed and absolutely cannot be reconciled with reality, no matter how hard you choose to believe otherwise - but Zone of Truth certainly can.) But demanding OOC that you need all these tools to be able to play a certain character (class) is nonsense.

I have no problem with Detect Alignment spells, because A: counters exist, and B: the spell itself doesn't count as proof of wrongdoing. Since Paladins must be both Good and Lawful, they're expected to follow due process and get evidence to back up a claim. Detect Evil is like a detective's "hunch," but you can't be convicted on a hunch.

(In before someone provides an anecdote where one time some Tyrran totally convicted someone based on a hunch.)

My problem is just what I wrote about the incommensurability of alignment the other day. Two people can behave exactly identically and have the exact same beliefs, and still have different alignments because it's players who decide them. (And the DM card doesn't help: they realistically don't have some consistent formula to calculate it for everyone, even if we wanted them to.)

I might let you use them if you're real nice about it, OOC. But in most situations they don't really add anything that couldn't be achieved with other means. Means already available in game, like Dominate Person and tell them to tell you the truth.

But that's not what this is really about. It's about whether we should twist and change Aura of Despair to broadcast your alignment to everyone. Given that you already can use Detect Evil with consent, there's absolutely no reason to give people that additional lenience. You can play a paladin just fine without "metagaming" someone's alignment from the aura, and arguing otherwise is just disingenuous.

In honor of the last time I saw detect evil get discussed, I'll reference OOTS:
Just hold up a lead sheet and claim it's part of your religion.

Seriously though, there are dozens of ways to "detect" someone's alignment without the use of pnp spells on Amia already.

I agree with Council's position.

As for the actual Aura.. if it's something that can be turned on and off, to have it on is an active use of an evil aligned ability.. in a crowd it might be harder to immediately register the source but combine that with big brooding black armour and similar? (Which I'm sorry happens a fair deal from what I have seen)

Additionally.. I think it might be worthwhile for someone to plumb Book of Exalted Deeds, Vile Darkness and the Core books to make some helpful aides on alignments.

Is anyone else feeling like this discussion has completely lost all usefulness? I mean, I enjoy a smart debate as much as anybody, but this isn't really a debate any more. It's just one group of people saying YES YES YES and another saying NO NO NO. We've all made our arguments, but "does this ability work this way or that way" ultimately isn't a question anybody but the DMs can answer, and they don't seem to have any inclination to do so.

Ravenloft has a sweet spellsystem in place, might want to take a gander.

Iron i have already quoted in this thread a DM saying the evil aura can be felt. This is not about detect evil at all. You have made an incorrect assumption there. I have voiced my opinion and the logic based behind that view. I do look forward to a DM ruling regards this and will respect the rule of course. Don't think it necessary to remind me of rules of pnp spells and abilities. I know them

inprison666 wrote:

So, for the most part I'm putting my BG away since the threat of MGing isn'y ruled away and folks are so hell bent on knowing every little thing like he stinks or something.

Or you could you know, be more cautious and make sacrificies to maintain your cover as a not-blackguard, like all good spies and infiltrators have to, not openly flaunt your power and wonder why everyone flips shit.

A trend I've noticed lately....

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