I would think a month is a good timeframe to max level. Note, I didn't put a number of hours here, just a timeframe. A new character SHOULD be an investment. Take it from someone who has nearly a hundred characters. Investment gives a character worth. That worth is displayed ingame by interactions with other characters. Our goal should not be to have people creating new characters constantly, it should be to make the ones they play more valuable, therefore, more immersive, therefore part of a community. I've seen this myself, when you feel like you can just roll up a newbie all the time, none of them have value, and the roleplay suffers. Look at those that have stuck with one or two main characters for years. We all know the names, we all see them. Those characters have value beyond how many hours it took to gain level 30.

I'm still holding firm that eliminating the level cap for parties would be a quick, relatively painless solution. It would also help people to stay in their current characters rather than rolling new ones just to help a friend, and giving that character less than a second thought. Watching people disappear daily from your world, and having new ones show up is disconcerting to someone who would live anywhere for a time. In just 4 weeks, I've seen dozens of people leave, and dozens of new ones come. Yet, the people I appreciate the most were there when Chance arrived, and will likely be there when he's gone (if he ever leaves!).

I think this is literally the defining point I tried to make, but worded better.

You /can/ get to 30 easily without ultra no-lifing, but it needs the right combination. We should not be addressing XP being given out as a whole, we should be addressing the difficulty of which it is to gain without the D&D "dream team".

As something to say, when I came back to Amia after a long hiatus, I decided to get Rico to 30 from 24. This is was hard, solely because 10 rogue/20 SD build isn't too great (I'm aware of the rework, mind). I joined a party which consisted of a Cleric KC, a Druid and a Dev-critter. The party lasted 6 hours, and by the end of it I only just hit 29 ECL. We only had two wipes due to error, but the "dream team" as I term it cover so many angles that the only real challenge is finding the party.

To reiterate, we should not be looking at how xp is scaled, it is fine for what amia is and discourage someone making a lot of characters that can all get to 30 in no time at all. What needs to be discussed, is why is it the only reasonable way to progress on Amia is to have a diverse party? Why does it seem you need to have at least one caster to have a good chance of progressing? Have you ever seen a full party of people, none of them a pure caster, be able to rip through mobs anywhere near as a fast as a caster?

Some food for thought.

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Honestly, I see a good balance with both Guy's and Kamina's suggestion, as I had stated in an earlier post. Implement a daily xp limit to allow for better progression, as well as RP. But at the same time, remove, or drastically increase the ECL differential. Even setting the differential to something like 15 would work, as it would prevent level 30s from grinding with level 2s, but they could still adventure with people of fairly higher level than they are. This would make a good balance for it, imo.

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I can get on board with widening the gap, but... xp daily limit cap... ehh, no, hate those. Say you do get that one "dream team" party, and you hit the cap... that just... sucks. If we widened the party cap to 10 or 15 like you said, that just might do the trick.

That's the thing. In general it requires not only a competent, but a sizable party to achieve that statistical rate of XP gain. Which more often than not people nowdays cannot find. And if they can, it's difficult having 5-6 people align their schedules so that they can find the time to do such. The most efficient way of getting people to group up together to train, level, and get XP, is to make the leveling process appealing.

- An XP boost does that. One that makes it easier for players to be self-sufficient (to some extent) in leveling.
- NPC vs PC events (hosted by DMs) .. that reward XP (to all non 30 ranges) does that.
- Greater XP reward for Dream Coins does that. (Those who choose to roleplay more at low levels are rewarded in kind anyway).
- Improvements to the job system. Making it simpler, easier to understand, and easier for new players to pick up/use actively.

^ If we can do that? I believe strongly that Amia will find an end to it's dead, dull and dark state right now. The sheer increase in new characters being made (and leveling parties being formed) will create tons of new RP, and promote the development of factions and so forth.

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Inkheart

A fairly sophisticated and promising system was suggested for that, some years back. It was never pursued but the details should still be buried somewhere in IA. Maybe I'll see if I can find it, later.

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This doesn't solve to the problem though. When I said people could get to 30 in 3-4 days, to which you met me with "not everyone no-lifes" but with this, they could maybe hit it in 1-2 days, to which your response would probably be the same. It's win-win for both sides but not for the same reason.




Agreed.




Agreed.




I agree, but I am fully aware that the Job System is very old in coding and, from what I've heard and seen, is very very finicky to edit. I know the dev team is working on this already.

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Just a thought.... People will powergame if they want to. No amount of rules, restrictions, or what have you will change that. Why then, are we penalizing those that simply want to "hang together and hunt and roleplay together" who are more than 5 levels apart? I just never understood this. Sure, there will be those that abuse it, but... just as we don't balance for PvP, why are we balancing for Powergamers? They will do it anyway, no matter what. So, I ask again, why punish the many for the sake of the few?

I rather strongly agree with Kamina's point that we should focus on making Amia less 'party only' dependent in the leveling phase. It really does require a dream team more often than not (either that are some powerful friends) .. and that makes it very hard on new players, or any non PVE based builds. Dexxers especially struggle quite a lot, more specifically in the early game. But, despite that, I feel that until a balance between difficulty and XP can be found, a simple boost to the XP income (or just a greater range allowed for partying) would be a good placeholder solution that really doesn't have hardly any cons at all. As Iron said earlier, there isn't exactly anything all that bad about people being able to hit 30 in 30 hours. If they have the time, good for them. It's not hurting anyone else. But for the majority of people, those who can only devote 2-4 hours to leveling a day, that's still a good 1-2 weeks that it's going to take them to hit 30. So an XP boost -is- viable without 'breaking' the game.

.. The boost -will- do a number of things to solve Amia's dead state, though. And if any have questions as to 'how' that is.. the OP as well as a quite a few of my follow up replies re-iterated that. At the very least I know it'll give the hope and motivation to the five players I just brought in to actually stay and give this server a chance. And in the future, with either this placeholder solution or the later implemented ones, I don't doubt that this will cause plenty other 'new players' to stick around as well. It'll make even us oldies have more reason to stay. Because, well.. who doesn't get excited about a new character? Or about making a new clan, family, faction or tribe with friends?

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Inkheart

A boost to the amount of XP you get per kill will not change how boring and tedious it is to grind that XP for levels. It will just shorten the time you spend doing it.

But is that really what we want to accomplish? So many people have said they hate the leveling process on Amia, because it's boring/tedious/clockwork/unimaginative/whatever. If we compare the Gibbering Maw with every other hunting ground ever, there's a huge difference in how enjoyable the hunting becomes in the Gibbering Maw. I'm not saying we should load every hunting area with WoW-esque scripts and encounters like the Maw, but I want to point out what I think is the real crux of the issue.

I don't see anything wrong with spending a year or more to get to level 30. What I see as a problem is a lack of energy or drive or enjoyment in the leveling process, to the point where people just stop or leave because of tedium. If that's happening, then maybe we should worry more about the design of the area and not about how much UBAR XPs we can drain from each beastie.

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I'll make another topic about the party level range after dinner. I found the old suggestions, so I'll try to present a few alternatives succinctly. I think there were a few very viable solutions with few arguments against them, but I guess it was never a priority. It deserves its own topic as it's more about connecting people than affecting leveling speed directly.

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Thanks Iron!

Jes touches on my view so far. Too often do I see people grind to 30 THEN rp their toons. The mindset that we need to be max level is wrong on an rp server.

"The point of the journey is not to arrive"

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

I agree.

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Because people want to establish their characters. They want to win at things, roll the best at things, etc.

Adding my thoughts here, but its more in praise.

While I was levelling Ahriman (Whom at different stages of levels he learned different things and went through an IC transformation in the process) there were particular DM's in my time of levelling that actually focused on providing "On the go" quests and "Happenings" which I witnessed in that time which I think is a neat idea!

Hudson & Silkelock, My fingers pointed at you lads, I would love to encourage more of this interaction for the newer players. It makes the difference so much better between a mindless grind and all of a sudden "Whirlwind and a wrong feeling encrouches on you.", It adds so much to character development. Sorry if I missed others out that have done similar, I'm only talking from perspective.

Praises to each and every one of you lot in the team for managing the load we demanding buggers slog out to you.

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Xalibossk, Body Tamer & Terror Of The Underdark

I can agree on Jes point. It is quite interesting to join DM event, such as Yossarrins massacre in Triumvir, and actually try to survive with a toon lvl 6.

I also enjoyed Mahtans rule of keeping the alternative characters, in the start, at low lvls.

And I do think hunts can be a lot of fun, if you happen to have a group who is open to roleplay the thing instead of trying to be as fast as possible to get the best exp/gold per minute.

My other recommendation is to find a group of players with similar mindset. Then it will be a lot of fun.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

This is one I'd like to hit on the nose. I'm going to use my minotaur character as a case study because I'm more or less identifying with almost every 'problem' people say the current system spawns.

I'll start a dungeon with whatever PUG I've managed to find (somehow I managed to find a few), and we'll be getting 20-25 xp per kill if the party is crap, 50-60 if the party's really good. Assuming the high-end 60 xp, this comes out to about 317 kills to get from 19 to 20, 400 from 24 to 25, and 483 to get from 29 to 30. If you get any lower than that (and you'll usually be getting in the 30-40 range), those numbers shoot up in a hurry.

Now I hear you say "Well three hundred and something isn't a lot of monsters to kill!". No, it's not, but this is a straw man I'm setting up to point out a few things:

You're not just leveling your toon once. Even at two levels you're breaking 600 mobs at a minimum even at mid-level. I'm just going to take the Fire Giants as an example of spawn numbers (not XP, as we're assuming 60 per kill). A quick double-check puts it at 33 potential packs of spawns at between 5-7 mobs per pack. Averaging that to 6 per pack we get 198 mobs plus two boss mobs (credited at 500 xp each for a guesstimate) for a grand total of 12,880 xp, which I'll round up to 13,000 to be very generous. Assuming this is a fairly average number of spawns, this means you'd have to loop the dungeon twice to level at later levels if you're getting really, really good XP- and more than likely you're not. If you're getting middling XP you're throwing four to five dungeon loops per level once you pass about level 15. Even at a conservative 15 minutes per loop, that's about an hour minimum per level- and usually it takes longer than that. Amia admittedly caters to 30, yet I can think of no PnP playgroup in the world* that requires a day and a half of solid playtime just to get your character up to snuff, which brings up another point:

You cannot RP some characters faithfully until they're maxed out. Again, back to the minotaur: He should be a belligerent, combative and uncooperative person at the very least, but the fact that I can get the shit stomped out of me by ~95% of the people I run across forces me to play him differently unless I really enjoy chewing on dirt for the rest of my life. I know you can think of another few characters whose RP just doesn't work unless they're at least capable of surviving a fight for more than fifteen seconds. Making leveling faster doesn't hurt them, nor do I feel it will hurt other characters:

After a point, I just can't RP in a dungeon any more. I can only come up with so much interesting crap before it gets old, and at that point any 'bonding' between characters becomes completely moot; we're all just lowering our heads and grinding it out after the first hour or so. When you have to come back to day after day of grinding (and are usually lucky to even find a group willing to grind) it kills the interest in the character (and if it's your first or only active character, the server). At this point I've essentially thrown up my hands because I find the grind so tedious, my time so limited, and the availability of groups so low. OOC frustration kills characters, and almost nothing is more OOCly frustrating than standing around for an hour just to find a group, grinding for 30 minutes to an hour, getting not a single level, and then trying the same thing again for the next month or more. At that point I'm no longer interested in buying what you're selling, and by the time I get to 30 I've got a good bit of pent-up resentment to go along with it.

"But there are quests!" I hear you say.

Where?

No, really, where? It's great if you're adding more quests, but you seem to be doing it in the most player-unfriendly way possible. Quests should not only be plainly discoverable but flow naturally from the actions of an adventurer: An NPC should spout dialogue about needing help when people who haven't completed the quest walk by, or shit should drop in a dungeon that explains in a non-vague way that you can take this to someone for a reward. Is it handholding? Yes. But right now I feel like the new quests may as well be under a rock in the woods for how many of them I've found (none)**. Either handhold or come up with a happy medium, but the way it is right now is hair-pullingly obscure. The only way I ever find them is if another player tells me about them. If they're so hard to find that I require OOC guidance to find them, then not only has your obscurity been defeated through OOC means but my point has been made that they are insufficiently noticable IC.

Nor am I going to go talk to literally every NPC I see. That kind of crap died out with the old Final Fantasy games. It worked for them, but it doesn't work for us. Modern multiplayer games commonly feature very definite indicators of quest availability and location, and it seems to be being imitated a lot, suggesting that it's been pretty successful at bringing in and retaining players (which is really their bottom line- as is ours).

So, what would I change?

1. More 'drop' quests. Items that drop in dungeons that you can turn in for XP and gold would be a tremendous boost to XP if done right and prolifically. I've been suggesting one particular form for a while now, but the utter lack of developer feedback makes me think there's not much interest.

2. More obvious quests. Would I go so far as to put an exclamation point over NPCs' heads? Well, not ideally, no. But I WOULD:
2a. Put up a 'notice board' in all high-traffic areas with a quest listing in an IC manner, such as "Farmer Bob needs help clearing out goblins from his outhouse" or "Reward! Lost cat! Answers to General Tso".
2b. Make NPC questgivers say something about needing help when PCs are within a certain radius, assuming they haven't done the quest yet.

3. Up the grind XP to at least double its current amount. I've been on and even run servers with far, far higher grind XP and I never saw anything bad come of it- in fact, there seemed to be a distinct lack of complaints about leveling in those places, whereas bitching about the grind may as well be Amia's anthem.

4. This one's a little out there: Raise the starting level to 15. It gets rid of a huge amount of the really low-level "I got stepped on by a rat and now I'm dying" crap, allows for a more narrow target level range for dungeons and events alike, and significantly speeds the leveling process which allows characters to at least start a significant portion of their development without shooting them right into the mix out of the gate. This is in fact done explicitly in HotU, where your new PC will be leveled to 15 before beginning their epic adventure. 15-30 takes far longer than 1-15, so we still wouldn't be cutting out the majority of the grind nor depriving players of that ever-so-important chance to bond with each other in the course of doing the monster mash. It'd require a complete retooling of a great many dungeons if not their outright elimination, but aside from that I can't think of any way this would actually hurt things.

*Yes, I know Amia is not PnP, it's a comparison. Don't get hung up on it, I'm illustrating a point with it, not making an argument.
**Not talking about the minotaur here, I've leveled another PC recently who would be able to go to any settlement and still found no quests aside from what was explicitly pointed out to me by other players at some point in time.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

In regards to 'where' the quests are, I am fairly certain the new line of quests the NPCs featured do inform you of other quest-NPCs and tell you where they are. All it takes is to actually read instead of hitting the number keys to quick-finish the conversation.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

or we could add ways to get exp rather then grinding, while the jobs can be nice, it requires a massive amount of time, effort, and commonly not being violently killed by everything in the vicinity if the job happens to force you somewhere with monsters. A passive exp for roleplay would certainly help.

This has been discussed before, no way of implementating this is unable to be abused and monitored.

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Okay, I'll go give this a fair shake and have a look with a new character and report back on how it goes.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

Unfortunately, passive XP gain continuously gets shot down. It's good in theory, but in practice it's either going to be such low XP gain to prevent abuse it's not even worth it, or if it's too high people will abuse it by standing around and just doing a lazy one-word emote every five seconds.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Ugh... if that is the lameness the playerbase has succombed to here.... can we still call ourselves a roleplay server? I mean, really... passive roleplay xp is wonderful. We have DM's around enough, if it was abused, spankings can be given out. Also, in the case of Prisoners of the Mist, theirs is set up that the more people in the vicinity, the more xp you get, and... there must be at least 2 people talking. Saying one word every 5 seconds does not get you anything on their system.

All these topics lately about xp gain and party issues are great to discuss, but all I keep hearing is how they will be abused. Maybe we need to examine that? On other servers where these things are in place or have less caps on parties, I never hear of abuses, or rarely at least. Maybe we're just not a mature enough playerbase to have nice toys, I don't know. But, I think it's worth a try.

As you said in the other thread, there will always be people to abuse it. And also, if just by standing around smiling every thirty seconds makes you a level 30 Weapon Master, well I'll be damned.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Heh, point taken, but... that's a heck of a lot of smiling.

Changing the XP per kill -will- change how 'boring' it is. You've shorter threshholds & 'checkpoints' (goals) to reach before you can feel you've made progress. Shortening the time before you see results, before you can get that next level of spells, or get that new feat.. -definitely- adds a vibrance to leveling. It's not a flawless solution, but it -will- make it 'less tedious' (hence one of the main points & problems in this thread) .. and it will give people incentive to make new characters & roleplay together. And though you may not see anything wrong with taking a year or more to get to 30, are you really willing to see tens of players leave the server because you played a key role and preventing them from being able to do it in a shorter amount of time than currently allowed?

People need to take a step back here and stop being selfish. Honestly. Restricting what is 'possible' because 'you only' think that "this is how EVERYONE should do it" is really just recipe for disaster, and it's kind of arrogant to think that that's going to either increase the count of the current playerbase, or solidify & strengthen it.


No offense, but who are you to make that claim? .. To say that that mindset is "just wrong"? Again, each person has their own preferences, the way to succeed here and make it the most fun for ALL involved isn't to stomp on either the majority -or- the minority just because a 'few' people feel that everyone else should be restricted because their opinions just matter more. Keeping an open mind and having a server where all kinds of people with different preferential backgrounds can enjoy themselves is a far better system, and it, yet again.. is a large step towards reversing Amia's dead state.

And on a logical level, who ever said the journey ends at 30? .. That's an OOC mechanical term. For most of my characters, the journey is only just beginning at 30. All the in depth, long, drawn out, 'making history' kind of RP with other players I've had.. -has- been post 30. You may dislike that, but so what? Are you really going to push to restrict what other players can do just because you fundamentally disagree with their style? .. Are you really willing to push for that and watch players leave this server because you played a key role in putting a stop and a block to it's improvement?

--

Please. Both of you. Ask yourselves that. Because this isn't how you make things better, and this isn't how you bring the server back to life -or- how you keep the current playerbase, let alone how you keep the new guys interested. This does the exact opposite of all of those things. It's just taking one big foot and keeping it down on the ground. All I'm seeing in these two comments are variations and repetitions of the mindset that says "Everything is perfect (it's not) .. all is well (it's not). And we should just leave things as they are and **** what everyone else says." Honestly, I started this thread to look for a solution to the existing problems on the server regarding leveling. Not to see people utterly deny that there are any problems at all and then suggest that we just ignore it and watch the player count deteriorate.

So if you have any ideas, by all means, please, share them (SO LONG AS IT IS PLAYER FRIENDLY) .. I really have to stress that. Because this server is not player friendly at all. There's an overkill and wealth of restrictions that makes it hell for any new player to go through, and it isn't much better for vets either. The thread was started for sake of finding a method of increasing the rate at which we can level. That's goal #1. Goal #2 is to find a solution that can accomplish that -while- increasing the number of people that make new characters (because as of now, the number is very small, and it's hard to find anyone to level with because no one wants to go through the process of leveling). I'd say goal #3 is accomplishing both 1 & 2 while increasing roleplay .. WITHOUT forcing it on those who don't want 'rp their way for a year' up to 30. Again, the preferences of a few should not be utilized to restrict and punish everyone else. And I'm not sure how securing the joy and success of your fellow players hurts you. If anything it will save this server from the state it is in now. -Unlike- what 'sitting down and doing nothing' (restricting your fellow players and killing their potential methods of joy) will do.

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Inkheart

^ Eurgiga hit this point flawlessly. Although 'some' of you may be able to enjoy and endure the horribly slow, miserable grind (and find great RP in the midst of it) some of us can't. And not all characters will be that way. Some of them really do have to be max level in order to 'be' what they were intended to be. But the most -important- point Eurgiga made here was this: "Making leveling faster doesn't hurt them, nor do I feel it will hurt other characters:" .. Read that, and read it well. Please. Because if you guys want this server to succeed you're going to have to consider all involved. Not just stomp on everyone else saying "Well, THIS is how -I- think roleplay should be. So we better make rules to force that on everyone else and make it so that they can only enjoy it MY way."

If the rate at which we gain XP is doubled, you will see an incredible change in the 'life' that is expressed in Amia overnight. No more will there exclusively be group RP amongst cliques behind closed doors. (There'll be people running around left and right leveling together, RP'ing together, and just.. grouping w/ strangers in general) .. New factions will arise, new character relationships, new characters -in general- .. and with it, tons of new roleplay and personalities. And in general people will get more 'bang' for the time that they invest into this game, and they will be much more willing to stay and continue playing here than they are now. Because as of now? .. In the dull, dead-state that is the cycle of "signing onto Amia & walking around for 30 min to an hour to find no roleplay" .. people are just going to start leaving. But THIS.. this would work. And I -dare- the administration here to try it for a week, or a month, even. And then just see how it goes.

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Inkheart

I'm not being rude Zykritch, because ultimately I agree with you, but it's best not to rip in to others for disagreeing with you like Jes and Analog did (Well, less so Jes, but you know...)

The system has been in place for a very long time, and we've never had a severe drop of population outside of NWN being shut down.

If people don't want it changed, they don't want it changed, instead of saying how wrong they are, try to see from their point of view.

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Yes and no. People should as always be able to play their character as they want within the realms of possibility on the server. If you want to play a lvl 1-2-3 you should be able to. If you want to play a level 30, you should equally be able to. There's no shame in wanting your character to be strong, there's no shame in wanting your character to be able to move and shake with some weight behind their presence. Just the same as there's no shame in playing a level 1-10. I just don't understand the glorification of these characters, it's cool that people are interested in that but it's also cool that people are interested in being top dog.




This doesn't solve the issue that Amia's an antiquated server on an antiquated game with an unappealing form of PvE. Nothing will change that reality, but we can take steps to lessen the pain that it brings about, both to new players and people wanting to play new characters. (Again, to be reiterated people should not be discouraged from playing how they want within the reasonable confines of Amia, and no amount of XP will stop people from playing /how/ they want, it'll just agitate them if they are forced to grind to play how they wish.)




Yep, this is it, this is the one. If you want to put a time frame on hitting 30, this is the way to do it because for the people who don't want to, or more often the case don't have the time to spend days grinding (optimally, much longer without optimal setup!) don't have to be dragged through the mud of the arduous and frankly mundane process of leveling.



There are a few problems here, one is that you're shunning a player's decision to play a character the way they want, and deeming it 'improper' when in reality it's entirely acceptable.

I think the root of this disagreement is that we all have different views of what the journey is. To some the journey may be bashing from rats to balors, and each troll, gnoll, and dragon along the way might be just what they want. You can do that, even a level 30 if they wanted could go back to any dungeon at all just for the sake of their own character's fulfillment, or whatever reason they may find.

To others the journey may be etching their place in the world that is living and breathing in amia, ala not NPC centric. And to do that it very much helps to be 30, admittedly you don't have to be, but in some instances you most certainly do. A social character doesn't have to worry about this, but a brooding tyrant does.

And to another crowd the journey might be staying level 1-2-3 and playing out the life of a commoner in a world utterly stacked against them, and that too should be their prerogative.



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There are some unspoken benefits for providing exponentially increased XP gains, and it brings about a sort of melding of the community in many un-noted ways.

People will not feel as turned away from starting new characters to play with new groups, as they will quickly be able to assimilate should that group be more exclusive to end-game "content" as many are. (I say content like this because this server, this game is all just a vessel for us to RP within. To play out our characters, however we envision them, in the land of Amia, that's the real content.) Which most importantly of all erodes the (oh my god is OTR going to say it) clique that has so frequently been blamed for the plethora of problems within Amia's past and present. This will be managed by tearing at the very barriers that isolate us from other players, we will be able to play with them on common grounds more frequently because we'd have more characters.

Haven't you all seen a faction crop up and really love the way it played, really wanted to be a part of it but couldn't be asked to roll a new toon to get into it? How many of you have come up with a concept you'd love to play, one that really sparks your flame for RP and ignites your desire to live a certain character, only to be snuffed out by the reality that is tedium on NWN.

There will also be more interesting characters and content floating about all the time, giving a more lively presence and atmosphere, and we can't really say what that atmosphere will be because it would actually be possible for it to fluctuate rapidly with the now unburdened and creatively inclined public no longer having to trudge through the mud of the grind. (As opposed to the aggressively enforced, and one-sided atmosphere we currently experience)

People would be more willing to give up their characters knowing they could create a new fresh idea, or explore a concept they just didn't have the time for before. It's selfish for us to expect people to play one character, we should actively encourage people to play Amia how they want, while contributing to the living and breathing progression of the server as a whole.
As an aside to people being willing to give up their characters I am not 50%, 70%, but 100% sure that evil factions would be more willing to let their characters be perma'd (though not exclusive to evil, I'm sure many good or neutral players want their story to end, and are shunned from that finality by the reality and difficulty of regaining what was lost) after they are inevitably rooted out and torn to shreds for the third, or fourth time to the point their actual impact on the server has begun to wax and wane. Instead they could let the victory be had with dignity, and die knowing they did something within the lifetime of their character.. And then move on to the next idea, without the burden of tedious grind.
This enriches the environment of the server, gives finality where currently we have nothing but barriers towards even considering this an option.

The environment of the server would really become more lively and unpredictable with the freedom XP gains would allow us. Factions could rise and fall without the pain they currently suffer of getting to a relevant state, not necessarily accounting for the very many player-to-player obstacles which SHOULD exist (and I don't mean PVP). Our objective here is to only remove the pain of carrying this dying game in all it's unpolished glory, and instead exemplifying, expanding and giving more variety to what we really play this game for, RP.

Another thing worth noting is the amount of time that can be spent RPing once that time is removed from grinding. Some people have mentioned that being level 30 isn't necessary to RP, and they're right. Neither is even carrying a weapon, or being anything more than a commoner. But those are honestly niche options while appealing to some, are not necessarily appealing to others, and you can never expect people to do something they don't want simply based on the value another has attached to it. There is no stopping people from playing the way they want to play, there is only inconveniencing them. If I want my character to function a certain way and feel that it's only possible to do so from level 30, with perfect gear I will not be interrupted, because that's how I want to play my character. We shouldn't impose our playstyles on others, but rather be accepting and understand that we have a very diverse community. Instead of condemning players for their preference we should provide a system that allows for each of us to pursue our desires in reasonable time frames, and avoid subjecting our player base to the worst parts of this game.

XP gain increase will not hurt the player who wants to play the journey of their character slowly, they will always have the option to turn off their XP gain, or refuse to take a level. This just gives much needed breathing room to the crowd who doesn't feel that's the journey for their character.

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Iron's idea is the most respectable best-of-both-worlds idea in the thread because it both puts a definitive timeframe cap on leveling, and also removes the tedium and pain of actually grinding away your soul and precious hours.

I personally endorse the most extreme end of the spectrum, in which an NPC can give you perfect equipment (Baring specialty gear such as epicl00ts), and max level with a few clicks. Allowing all players to play exactly what they want without hours of mind-numbing grind, and those who wanted to take a more moderate approach would be able to have their low levels, and moderate equipment as they so desired. Because ultimately I feel NWN is merely a medium for RP, and while it is very good at some of the things it does, the things we endorse and uphold on this server aren't necessarily the shining examples of what makes NWN a gem of a game, save that we are an RP server.

We should all come to realize by now that this game isn't very fun to grind in, and the only feasible ways to eliminate these issues would be to alter the flow of XP in such a way that circumvented the time invested into an archaic system. Some of you might think it's fine, and some people might even like it. They can still have their cake and it it too, if a new system is implemented. Nothing stops you from grinding, nothing stops you from going to any zone as any level. Reasonably though many of us don't care for the grinding at all, in any form. We have limited time and we would like to get to the point of the server as soon as possible: RP.

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bad man

There's been a number of severe population drops in the past. And it wasn't just because of NWN being shut down. It was because of bans being handed out 'en mass' due to player-incited "call for mommy" drama (w/ no effort on the player end to solve things civilly) .. it was because of people getting sick of the endless grind, sick of the lack of benefit for the time they invest into this game, and it was for roleplay coming to a very stagnant stop for the 'majority' .. and only being a luxury that people found amongst very well known friends, or bland, forced small talk with strangers. Back when NWN was in it's prime maybe our current system worked. But right now? When we're a light in a dying game? The case isn't quite the same anymore. We need improvements, and we need to give players more incentive to stay.

.. "They" are just two people. How many more will leave because they see that "they" are the cause of a declination of the idea to improve Amia as it is? The opinions of just two people should not be grounds for restricting everyone else here because they think that "RP should only be done this way." .. That's ridiculous, and it hurts the server more so than anything else. They don't get harmed at all by allowing others their freedom to enjoy roleplay how they want. So I've a tendency to get a little unnerved at that suggestion, because I know how much damage it will do. It's -already- doing damage.

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Inkheart

^ This sums it up. For any and all who think the solution is to restrict other players for sake of your own preferences or idea of what 'the journey' is .. or what 'good rp' is .. this is what you need to be reading (and above all, understanding).

We have a solution. It's one we've proposed multiple times in this thread and only -one- flaw was ever stated, found, or acknowledged with it. And it's one that is easily, -easily- fixable. And that's that some players will get to 30 more quickly than they would prefer (and with XP blocks, physical decisions to not go level one day or another, and potentially new scripts to limit XP income) .. that can solved with no problem at all. So why is everyone so afraid of this? .. It -is- a solution. And it -would- work. .. Go on, I dare you to try it for a week (or a month). I dare everyone to support it here and now and see how it goes. Because I can promise you, with the results that you'll see due to this change? You will not be disappointed. Amia will have it's life & vibrancy again.

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Inkheart

Hi, I'm a new player! Ish. A few months? That's still new, totally.

Just throwing that out there because, since you guys are talking about new players and all, I figured maybe my perspective could help. Or it won't, I dunno. But I'm gonna try to help anyway. Let's do this! :D

I hate grinding.

Like. To the point of being an extreme and absurd hatred. To the point that most of my friends know this about me off the top of their heads. To the point that it's literally a running joke in my faction that my main character will never advance past level 13. Ever. (We're going on a month now, so, we'll see if I can keep it up.)

There's a few reasons for this, but the biggest one is that, simply put, I'm here for the RP and almost everything about the grinding system discourages RP. First up, a lot of players just kind of don't care to RP while they're trying to focus on not-dying. There's not a lot of room for typing, especially if things are getting intense. Often people choose to discuss loot drops and the like OOCly, just for efficiency. And if the players you're with are just there to get the level-ups, well, forget it, you're in for a damn quiet dungeon run.

Not only that, but... Yeah. For the people in the other thread who have been saying the ECL restriction is a serious hindrance to roleplay, for new players? Absolutely and totally accurate. It's frustrating as heck. I've had countless situations where, ICly, it would have made sense for me to team up with someone and help them out, or for one of my friends to team up with my group, and then we discover we're precisely 6 levels apart and suddenly they (or I) have to find a thinly-veiled OOC reason to dip out. This is especially frustrating playing as a kobold PC; the only ones my character really trusts are, well, kobolds. Kobolds stick together, and always run in groups. So it's a liiittle bit annoying when you are literally incapable of having your tribal leader join you for a raid, or you go out to attack the mylocks that have been screwing your people over but have to, for inexplicable reasons, leave half your warriors behind.

Pardon my language, but it is an absolute pain in the ass on all levels.

And that makes me sad, because, you know, it can honestly be pretty fun. I don't actually mind running through a dungeon if it's with a group. But it is so bloody hard to get a group together that's in my ECL range that I honestly just give up, 90% of the time. So, I eternally stay at level 13.


To add another perspective: One of my closest friends, we'll call him Paul, who I convinced to come here with me, actually left the server/game over this issue. Like, left and never came back. He's a college student, like me. He has very little time during the school year, like me. He's only got specific times during the week that he can actually play, and, when he does, he likes to play with his friends, because he's honestly a little bit shy and doesn't know anyone here on the server. Because, y'know, he's new. Or was, until he quit.

But yeah, he quit. Because this became a serious problem. The rest of us had a bit more time to play than he did, and one or several of us would inevitably get out of his level range, and he'd be unable to go into dungeons with us. We tried making alternate characters or having people stay behind but ultimately it was just a huge pain for everyone involved. Unlike me, Paul was a bit more interested in playing the game than roleplaying, though he was new to the latter so that was understandable. But he found himself so frustrated with the fact that he was always just out of range of the people he wanted to play with, that he eventually quit. That was a month or so ago, and he's never come back.

We talked about it once, and I tried to encourage him to come back, but he gave me an argument that I honestly couldn't get around: "It's just not fun."


I'm providing this extensive testimony for a specific purpose. You guys are talking about how this sort of stuff deters new players, and I'd like to decisively prove that, at least in my personal experience, yes. It does. I've stuck around just because I really enjoy roleplaying and barely grind anyway, but I feel like there's two sides of Amia: The roleplaying, and the grinding. And they're almost totally separate eighty percent of the time, because of all the restrictions on the latter. As a result, I usually just don't bother. And, thus, stay level 13, for the rest of the foreseeable future.

I get that you have to worry about balance and all that stuff, but, honestly. Like people have been saying, there will be people that inevitably game the system and power through it. Nothing will ever stop that beyond a daily EXP cap or something. The people that suffer are the ones that don't have the time to actually level for days on end and grind their way up to 30. It's called a grind for a reason, and some of us just don't have time for it.

If we really are a "roleplay first" server, which I'd like to believe we are, then please, please take this into consideration and do something to make grinding a little bit more... You know. Roleplay-friendly. Because, right now, it's often just an obstacle that people occasionally surpass and RP around, rather than a tool to RP with.

And that sort of sucks.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

Tyrak's testimony here is hugely important. And I hope you guys don't undervalue what he's saying. I've personally brought five more players to this server already within the past couple of weeks. Three of which are already playing here actively, and three of which are already on the verge of quitting permanently because of the difficulty, tediousness (and yes, slow pace) of the grind.

This right here, what Tyrak JUST said right here, is exactly what they are experiencing. And chances are, it'll end the same way for them as it did for Tyrak's friend if we don't do anything to make it easier on people:



So, we have a solution. One that would undoubtedly work. And it would do wonders for this server. So why can't we give it a try?

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Inkheart

Please moderate the personal tone, you can still get your points across by taking a moment before you click Submit to adjust how aggressive the presentation might be, and make small changes that will both keep blood pressure from rising, and clarify your intent and point.

Tyrak, thank you for the new player perspective, and, well, as one of the proponents of easier partying rules, I also thank you. I've brought several friends to this server in my time here, and nearly all quit because the #1 reason they came was to play with me. As soon as they realized it could be weeks before we could run dungeons together in any meaningful way, I tried to help, I made new characters to support them, but, it just always felt like we were chasing the 8 ball.

As someone who was really excited for an open-ended DnD game after years of table top, and recommendation from some online RP friends, I have to say;
The grinding necessary to advance is entirely why I dropped out. Not to be offensive to anyone who likes the slower burn experience? But, if I'm gonna spend hours on a roleplaying game, I like roleplay to be my focus instead of a tepid, rapid response between mobs.
I put in a good two weeks of effort before washing, I just couldn't get into it enough with a "To-Do; Kill a Billion Monsters" always looming overhead.
Anyways, yeah, I fell in the same thinking as "Paul" Tyrak mentioned and GG'd, sorry.
(P.S. I'm not Paul; Tyrak is in fact my mortal nemesis, and when the Trumpets blare, we will do battle atop the Mount)

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DeviantArt; http://leschinsky.deviantart.com/ I take commissions!

Lyllith Montimaers : Thorny Rusthaft : Ternesj Drihliri : Mournia Montimaers : Mary Belle Whately : Naji Nebak'nizir the Third

My intent is to speak with a (hopefully) strong, adamant, and urging tone. (A desperate one, even) .. As opposed to an aggressive one. My apologies if I come off as being otherwise, though. It's not at all my intention. I just feel very strongly about this, and believe in it just as much. I'd like my words to convey that sense of faith & urgency.

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Inkheart

I'd like to throw in a couple things real quick.

1: For the record, I also apologise if my post gave anyone the wrong idea. As any of you that know me know very well, I love this server and the people in it, which is why I've stuck around. I'm just also, uh. Very blunt. It's usually for humour's sake but can also be a bit rude.

Though I do think that the pace of levelling is a little slow if you are new and don't know the server's grind-spots (ask me about "the ogre grinding story" sometime, seriously, I'll tell you), I don't even mind a slow build. My favourite server for ages was an old Zombie Survival server. Universally-enforced permadeath, super-hardcore, and you literally didn't get experience from kills. Like, any. At all. The only experience you got was from occasional DM events, a 10-exp-per-30-minutes script running in real time to reward you for not dying yet, and a single quest that got you, maybe, to level 2. That was it.

And I loved it! It was great. The lack of any physical ability to grind meant we just roleplayed instead, and focused on other things like in-character conflicts and getting resources so we didn't starve to death. It was thrilling, and it was fun. So, no, I don't mind a slow build, but I still dislike the grinding system here.

...Especially due to the ECL limit. Because I will admit I genuinely do hate how the ECL limit works. Thaaat wasn't miscommunication. '-';


2: I noticed we got referenced, but didn't want to add even more to my last, far-too-long post. So I'm addressing it now!


This is true! We in the kobold faction are getting a ton of cool RP. Unexpected amounts of it, in fact. It's rad, and Terallis makes an awesome point. You can totally still RP before level 30. It's what we've been doing for months.

But that being said, I'd like to point something out. Yes, we RP a lot, and we're an average range of 10-20. But I'd also like to point out that, as of the time of writing, we actually have a very conscious effort going on to get a few of our members to level 30 in the near future if we can, even though none of us want to benchpress carts or do quadra-backflips or anything.

Why? Because everyone else is level 30, and, if you're not, you get pushed around. A lot. Not just if you're a kobold, either; I hear about it all the time from people who primarily play dwarves, humans, and elves. I'll admit, it's kinda fitting for kobolds, but when it's to the point where we've gotten randomly PVP'd by single level 30 characters that our entire group of 6 could do nothing to stop, it's less immersive and more "man some of these characters are kind of massive jerkfaces". So we're actually trying to get a couple people to level 30 in our faction for this reason alone; not because we want to be super powerful, but because we just want to be able to hold our own when we're in a group. That's it.

So, no. Level 30 isn't everything, by any means. But there are certainly reasons why some people would think that you "can't" RP until level 30. It isn't totally accurate, but I can see where they're coming from, especially if they're playing a character they want/expect to get into inter-character conflicts with.


Finally, P.S.

Leschinsky do not think that leaving this server will save you. Upon the summons we will do battle and I shall see your flesh rended from your skeleton with hellfire the likes of which thou hast not seen in a millenia. Mine fury shall not be quenched by mortal man, for it is ever-burning and eternal, as shall be your suffering upon your defeat.

...Sorry, guys, that had to be said, please continue.

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

Since I've had a few people ask, I'll give a quick phone-post: I'd make it easier to get to 20, and then make every Epic level unable to be gained by Exp, and instead quested for and relevent to their particular classes. It would no longer be possible to get to 30 without dedicated, non-grinding effort for each Epic level.

Can I just say that I love this idea? We'd just need to do it well, if we did. I've seen servers do this very poorly, where you need MONTHS of investment to even gain a level or two. But even so, I'm totally down for this.

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I like letum's idea a -lot-...

In fairness I don't think it's just "two people" who are fine with things as they are. This is kind of like voting in America - because you don't have compulsory voting, only people with an axe to grind get their opinions heard, which ends up getting weird things implemented that a lot of people end up not liking. It's a silent majority for the most part and who knows what they're all thinking. That said, I think we can agree that there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied and something should be done to help them, ideally without alienating other players. This is difficult, some might say impossible without a compromise that leaves everyone unhappy, but I think it's worth a shot.

I'd personally lean more to the suggestions of making the lower levels more interesting, ie with DM activity, or PC politics, and stuff like that which doesn't end up resulting in 30s vs 30s. Definitely need more quests, but that's been in the pipes for ages and I'm given to understand that they are incredibly annoying to assemble. That would probably address the concern and help people to feel less like 30 is the place to be. I personally kind of /do/ enjoy the grind. I stopped playing for unrelated reasons. But that's just me, and I'm not saying you guys have to enjoy it my way. In fact, I doubt I would have much less fun if you did speed it up, although it will certainly force me to adapt. I just think a solution other than making the grind faster might be best.

In part it probably has a lot to do with server identity, especially when we bring up comparisons like Sinfar's rapid exp gain or PotM's dreadful crawl. And whatever Arelith does (I think they run it fairly slow). Both apparently appeal to some, but I don't know if it's necessary to adopt one or the other. So what are we about, and how does our current leveling rate reflect that?



Sounds awesome, though it also means at bare minimum designing half a dozen quests structured to be repeatable, or at most about 400 hour-long jaunts (that's a bit on the absurd end so I'll clarify: one per level per class, vs one per archetype repeated however many times, possibly with RNG thrown in). I would be interested in hearing how you would implement this when you have a chance to explain in detail.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

No. I've seen this done before, and higher levels frequently and often abused it to pick on lower levels.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

In what way, Eurgiga? Any anecdotes to share?

Like Yossarin, I'm curious as well, because, as I pointed out earlier, that's kind of already happening. Frequently.

Though perhaps in a different way than you mean, so. Details?

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Currently Playing:

• Krel'xiekiv - Kobold Scout
• Aldriano Alode'tnen - Fabulous Bard

So since this topic has devolved, I am going to make my points for the sake of reiteration.

If the team could put out quests every two weeks instead of every four or six months, then leveling /might/ be fun. But currently it is not. It's mindless grinding, point-clicking, and hating yourself until you hit level 30 because you will not be able to participate in things with the people you are role playing with until you hit 30.

DM plots cater to max level, and the server population sits at 30 because the level cap is in place.

Until these two things change, leveling will not be fun. It will be purgatory.




I'm also not suggesting that, because said Mid-Level PCs are desperately trying to become level 30 so they can do stuff with everyone else on the server.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Yeah. Personally I'd like to make a reminder to everyone here that, although a number of these solutions are both nice, beneficial, and viable.. almost -all- of them are far off and require extensive scripting and far too much time to implement to help solve the 'now'.

I've no doubt in my mind at all that within the year Amia will have eradicated a number of the problems posed in this thread. We've countless solutions being proposed to handle that. But, FOR NOW.. we need to implement something as a 'blanket solution' until then. Because unless we do, players will continue leaving, and new players will continue giving up after a week of rather horrid, grueling leveling.

Currently I know at least three players on the verge of quitting this game entirely due to the in place circumstances here, and I wouldn't doubt that there are a sizable number of others in the same position as well. Amia is in a dead state, an instant and -current- solution being implemented has strong potential to take it out of such. Regarding making leveling more 'exciting': Although DM events help spice things up a bit, they are not a solution, because they are dependent upon fortunate login timing and synchronized schedules. They are not definitive or dependable, and many people will miss out on this 'solution'. It's only a nice 'factor'. It won't solve anything for real.

Letum's idea is nice. I don't disagree. But again it has the same con that the previously referenced 'solutions' had (such as the already 'in progress' quest system): It will take time and new scripting to implement. That still neglects the present, it still ignores the players that -right now- are on the verge of quitting Amia. We do need a placeholder solution, and the results of such would be incredibly beneficial for this server if we all could agree on implementing one.

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Inkheart

How about things like double experience weekends or happy hour experience gains? It's not as much as a global effect all the time, but provides times that grinding will be faster.

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Sadly that leaves a number of people out of the equation. If they can't free up time on the weekend (or can't be there for 'x' specific hour) they're really just left out of the benefit & solution. I like the idea, but it'd have it's fair share of problems. Hence why an overall XP boost would be easier to implement and quicker to solve things. It doesn't matter who is online or at what time, they all benefit.

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Inkheart