Parsing again, because I ideate in monologue and explain in dialogue, apparently.

"We already have DMs that mainly fit into these rolls already, informally." And they get criticized for "not doing their job" when they get burnt out, prefer not to run plots, or go on much needed breaks. Give them less jobs to do and spread the workload and everyone is relieved of additional expectations.

"But I like DMing/telling stories AND playing my own PCs!" That's awesome and that drive is the source of much of our creativity. No one is asking that you never play your characters, simply that while serving in the role of DM, you put the needs of others before your own. If it would worry you that much, you could always do a week on, week off sort of deal. One of the most frustrating things as a player is to send a tell to a DM, playerside or DMside and be told "I'm not doing that tonight/this is my playtime." Imagine you and your group of friends show up to your PnP DM's house on Friday for the weekly session, beer and pizza in hand, and he turns you away at the door, stating "Dude, I'm watching Who, go away." As friends, you understand, but it still sucks because you 1) don't get what you expected and 2) are made feel like an asshole for expecting it. Simply put, when wearing the DM-hat, DM. If you want to play, cool, just take off the hat for a while so we know not to bug you.

"But what about continuity? What if I don't finish my plot within X months? What if I want to continue it later?" Given that the DM shifts could very well be a few months at a time, and given that that's all a DM would be doing in that time, I think any worthwhile arc could be tied up very nicely within it. Getting into the groove of being around Saturday evenings, you could get it done. "But what if the players don't show up!" -Oh. Well, that's always a possibility, but from ~10 years of hanging around, it more often seems like players are willing to be around for DMs once they know they're there. You're a priceless commodity! We'll show up more often than not. And nothing stops you from continuing your plot when you shift picks back up. But the arc of the server has shown that people seem to prefer smaller, more spontaneous plots. If you really think you have one that needs 6 months, cool, but I doubt it.

"What if someone continues on MY plot in a way I don't like? What if they-" I have to stop you right there, theoretical chum. Maybe it's that damnable Rand and Sinclair that polluted my poor innocent mind at a young age, but I always saw my plots as gifts. Like any sort of story or art, once you share it, its out there for everyone. Yes, I made it, yes, I'm in charge of it, yes, it should bear all the scars and pockmarks of my heathen soul, but I'm giving it to someone, because I'm strong enough and creative enough and what I make deserves to be experienced. And to experience something is to allow yourself to be changed while you in turn change what is being experienced. So what if someone expands on your story a few months? So what? If anything, it should be taken as a compliment that someone thought your story was worth expanding on. Someone agreed that what you made was awesome, and now they wanna see it keep being awesome. Once you're out of the saddle, enjoy the ride like the rest of us.


I empathize with the issue of having to train new people on the DM client might be tough. But believe it or not, sometimes interpersonal systems/jobs work better when everyone knows a bit about the other positions. That's how expectations are balanced. Hitherto, players are mainly held to regard DMs as esoteric, multi-armed "fungineer" devi, juggling player interactions on 4 of their 8 limbs and stories on the others. And told that we simply don't understand or couldn't know the depth of these things. And then told, after all of it, that the DMs are just human and only so much could be expected. It's a tailspin of being told one thing and then bolted from the heavens when we believe too much in what we have been told. Ultimately, when our pleas go unanswered, when we seem to get told off unilaterally, when our rain-dances don't seem to work one way or another, we have to write it off as "the DM's work in mysterious ways." And more often than not, that leaves players either agnostic in questioning if they ever really understood what DMs are and are for or in crass disbelief that they're there in a beneficial capacity at all.

Pardon the extended religious metaphor. I know the team is weary about those, from experience. But the TL;DR of it all is that we really crossing over into the territory where more stands to be gained from listening to the supposed "vocal minority" than what can be lost. Silence is often construed as consent and some people would be happy with anything short of a pointy stick in the eye. Good enough and better than ain't good enough for Amia and if we want more people under the big tent, we have to first invite them in.

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Obviously I didn't mean it literally I was making a point by throwing your own argument back at you, I stand by my earlier statement that telling people to leave however nicely its phrased is a copout and beneficial to the server or its cultural wellbeing. Obviously I am not talking about extreme asshole players who need to have their trolling or abusive behaviour removed from the server but just in regards to people expressing genuine concerns.



Passive aggressive much? Please don't go there.



Pointing out exits in a building for health and safety purposes which is the core reason why companies have to brief visitors and customers on fire exits etc is completely different from directing a dissenting player to leave the community however its phrased.
One is to inform you for your safety and the other is a demand someone leave the community because their issues and the player are not wanted. So again I would rather people stop using the door tactic and justifying it as mere "clarification" or whatever, its passive aggressive nark and as I a player I don't want to see it, as a DM of many years experience in pnp for public and private groups I don't want to see it, its counter productive and trollish.

Frankly DMs set the standard of conduct for everyone, if a DM sanctions narky BS they cant really complain when players start becoming narky to each other or back at DMs.

I am not saying its easy and I am not saying that sometimes nark feels justified but it demeans the poster and the reader and is part of the problem not the solution.



Gunnery Sergeant Hartman once said to Private Pyle "whatever you do, don't fall down that would break my F^%king heart"

Now was he just making a statement of fact or was he trolling the hell out of Private Pyle.



No idea where this rant come from and I have no answer for it as its anything I say is likely to spawn more branches to perch on and rant from But I will say I have not said DMs are the cause nor have a I said they are the solution, and frankly ranty posts like this display that the "them and us" mentality some claim is prevalent is not just a player to DM issue but DM to player issue as well. Another symptom of problems not solution imo.



Or maybe in this hypothetical scenario they would be a sick of your posturing and trollish demand they shut up and suck it up or leave and decide they are in fact wasting their time and leave on the basis that if something starts taking more out than you get in return well you have to decide if you have a life surplus to spend wasting your time or are you seeking to generate some enjoyment to take into your life.

Justifying someone's motivations based on self serving criteria of your creation is hardly fair if someone is raising a valid point or what might possibly be a valid point and you give them a binary option of shut up or shut the door on the way out. Hell even me arguing against "the door" tactic is getting you all riled up and super defensive it seems with your ranty reply above going back 7 years on about things I have not mentioned and don't even know about.

Maybe that's something you need to consider



If you were a player and you vented such sentiments in a thread trying to fix an issue, how would you moderate yourself if you were also the DM reading the paragraph contain this comment? Be honest



My first point being that people need to stop taking OOC shortcuts to IC matters and get on with role playing their characters and stop trying to get one up on other players OOCly.

My second point is why are you as a DM sanctioning with this sentence the use of party chat at all, like I said a few years ago party chat was "afk bio" and that's about it I can't even recall party chat needing to be used to settle OOCly BS as we were so focused on our IC engagement if something came up that needed some OOC clarification then sure party chat or more often a tell would be more appropriate but strictly as a tool to facilitate smooth RP

I for one would like the server culture to get back to this fundamental principle and thus free up DM time from having to overwatch party chat and probably avoid a lot of OOC conflicts in the first place..



I highly recommend that ~all~ players (again this DOES include DMs in my world) turn off party chat, go cold turkey and just get back to IC chat I think some of you will be surprised how the flavour and quality of your RP can improve by removing this OOC distraction and temptation.

And on that note I will bow out of this thread as I dislike the changing tone of the conversation, which is a shame as the OP has made very good points which appear to be getting some peoples backs up.

Remain calm people

_________________
Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

I just want to point out that in Australia we don't have that door notification thing, so his initial remark didn't sound passive-aggressive at all...

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Wow

You guys are all so impassioned about a video game and an online community

Is this myspace or something?


EDIT: My point is, I think we all need to take a chill pill. Like... Go outside. And read a non-fiction book. Realize this game is not worth stressing over. Nor are most of the people on here. Reality is a bitch, don't make fake-reality a bitch too.

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Osiris Masud

I don't think anyone is really stressing here. I'm certainly not. Taking the issues of the server seriously and speaking passionately about it doesn't mean we've forgotten it's a game. That's like telling a crowd of soccer fans to cool down in the midst of a match.

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Yeah, but see, I look at hardcore sports fans like they're aliens too.

I'm not reading 100% of this thread, but from what I did read, it looked like people were stressing pretty hard, over stuff that doesn't need stress. If that is the case, just take a chill pill and have fun. If that is not the case, then... Uh... Go fuck yourself.

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Osiris Masud

Oh lordy lord, Threadnaught #2 is on its way.

I know the staff is super excited to see me post, what with my witty repartee and propensity to flatly tell people they're wrong, so I'll do my best to keep this brief...ish.

I've read through this whole thing and it's kind of going in circles like the last one. It's highlighting something, however, that I've noticed more and more in the past months to a year. The server is growing an increasingly bad us-versus-them complex, to the point where a number of players and even some staff feel like certain DMs are irredeemably wrong and can't be reasoned with. I can't see the DM forums, so I really don't have a great feel for what the DMs are feeling about this, but Dusty's "this isn't a democracy" attitude seems to be somewhat on-point.

I'll take this from the DM standpoint first, because I've tried to run a server where we'd bend over backwards to please players. It doesn't work. By and large when one player wants something about the server changed someone else wants it to stay the same. The effect that bending to this has on the playerbase is something like a meat slicer- sure, there's a vocal minority every time, but you keep shaving off a little more and a little more and pretty soon you've subjected the server to death by a thousand cuts. This happens every time you make a change- a few more people get pissed off, take their ball and go home.

Conversely, you can't realistically write off "a small but vocal minority" for the same reason- you shave them off, then shave off another minority later, and again you find yourself beset by the same situation. I don't think you do that often, but we're all human and sometimes you just want to go "to hell with those people".

A great point has been that newbies are by and large brought in by players talking about it with their friends. Now, there was a topic a while back that had newbies directly weighing in and explaining that the slowness of leveling were the #1 reason they were getting discouraged and leaving the server. It really surprised me that DMs (and players) by and large took a "everything is fine" stance (not universally, but to a large degree) when the "newbies", one of our most important tools to grow the server, were candidly explaining what was turning them off and that they needed help. The thread ended up getting locked, and at the end of the day I feel like absolutely nothing will come of it, and we've more or less lost the bulk of those newbies.

That, I think, is the root of a lot of frustration; you can say all day we're free to post constructive ways to improve things, but more often than not it feels like every discussion simply ends up tipping over and spinning its wheels until a DM shoots it in the head to put it out of its misery. The changes to the server, then, seem to arise from behind-the-scenes initiatives (not that that's bad) while many players feel that they are powerless to instigate change (that is bad). When players feel helpless, they begin to feel hopeless, and in short order they get either despondent, angry, etc- and then they just plain leave. A few here, a few there, the meat slicer shaves off a sliver every time.

While a server certainly can't be a democracy, at the same time you're DMs, not dictators. This isn't an MMO, it's a bunch of regular punters sitting down to RP together. In PnP, anyone can run a campaign and be the DM because we're all just regular people playing a game. Now I'm certainly not advocating letting the players DM en masse, I am advocating putting more weight behind what's said by them and, on occasion, yielding some ground. At the moment I see quite a lot of "We'll change when it's warranted" or some similar version where a qualifier is added. It's nothing but a dodge that allows you to maintain your stance and forestall discussion against it by inserting said qualifier and then simply establishing a standard of sufficiency so high that it's impossible to meet. Don't do that. It's not honest.

Finally, as to the actual root of the discussion, I'll be... well, this hasn't been brief so far. I'll pontificate as little as I can manage?

Recently I sent in a private request to change my character's alignment. It took weeks of DM discussion and debate for a one-step alignment shift with excellent RP backing over a very very long period of time. What's more, the alignment shift means absolutely nothing to the character mechanics and doesn't influence how I play- I was simply being honest and making my character match their actions. When you have a two-week debate over something that piddly, you are being too controlling. Quite frankly, I know my character's alignment better than you do, and unless there's an obvious mechanical exploit I'm taking advantage of it should've been rubberstamped.

Step back. Relax. I see DMs treating every single request as if it must meet some ridiculous level of scrutiny, and it's just insane. You say no for the most inane of reasons when saying yes wouldn't hurt anything. I've had interesting concepts rejected because you quibbled about the classes I wanted to use for that request, yet I could do it without asking you at all by RPing it as something else. In short, it feels like asking you anything is a fast-track to a no or to a long, convoluted, and overly-drawn-out process to get a yes. I see some of the recent changes as moving towards even more control, something I think is going to backfire on you. If the DMs are so overburdened by applying such a high level of scrutiny to these requests, then maybe you're going a little overboard in treating every request like an application to import biohazard materials. At some point, I just don't want to deal with you anymore because you've made the process so painful that it's not worth it to even try.

So seriously- chill out. It's a game, we're not trying to break it, and if you'll step back and give people more latitude in creating what they want to create and facilitating the process rather than placing it under a microscope I'll bet you'll find at least some degree of renewed vibrance amongst the playerbase. Stop finding reasons to say no and instead look for reasons to say yes. Don't say "we'll approve it if X"- don't give yourselves an out with an impossible-to-achieve qualifier, because from what people are saying the standard just keeps rising and it's strangling creativity as a result.

I really, really like this server and so do a lot of us. This isn't us-vs-them, this is us together. Players would do well to remember that as well; I'm in touch with a fair few on Skype and the amount of bitching just keeps increasing, more and more painting the staff as this group of bad guys who are just out to railroad everything and say 'no' a lot. Please step back and relax as well, or you're just going to piss them off and then we'll be in a big pot of pissed-off together.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

Aren't you the guy that got so mad he lost a fight in the same "video game and (an) online community" that you made a thread about it where you attacked people? Truly, such hypocrisy shouldn't be so blatant if you want to make a case.

No, I didn't get mad at losing a fight lol, as I've said multiple times It does irritate me when I see people who don't role play their classes, which I've seen with multiple different people or classes, and I think that shifters need to be tweaked, but that is not because I've lost fights to Shifters.

I've also won fights with them doesn't change my stance on it, nor does it remove the need for angry people to chill and take a step back.

Truly, such b8 was gr8, m8.

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Osiris Masud

This is why we can't have nice things.

Dusty's kind of right, a lot of the problem is player attitudes. When we're this willing to be catty and snipe at each other in ways completely unrelated to the discussion we're not exactly making it easy to like us.

So to players: Don't be a dick. Good lord, don't be a dick. Be firm, vocal, and passionate if you need to be, but stop this kind of crap. It carries over into all of your discussions and I'm willing to bet is a good part of the reason the DMs are getting fed up with some/all of us.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

(Bleh, covered extensively already.)

I think instead of suggesting that if folks can leave if they are displeased one should realize that everyone who is posting or even paying attention to this thread is actually trying to work for improvement of the enjoyment of everyone as a whole. Telling them to basically deal without complaining or offering criticism or fuck off isn't the right approach. It is after all a game is it not?

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Nothin matters berk. Don't you see? Even so a poor sod shoudn't go hungry

Since it is only a game and since we've all pretty much agreed that we're all invested in this server, players and DMs both, can we please not hurl insults and accusations?

This thread was created with the intention of offering feedback and insight, let's try to keep it that way and avoid turning it into the monolithic mess the other topic turned into. I realize that a lot of people feel strongly about certain things (and I count myself among them) and think that those things are the root of all the problems presented therein, but I'll kindly ask that they try to keep their posts constructive and their tone polite. Having this thread devolve into mud slinging will lead to it being locked and will benefit no one.

@opening remarks:
As in, you meant it the same way I said it? Facetious is the term. It's a form of humor and is traditionally seen as good natured where I come from, not malicious, and it usually bears a bit of truth in it.

@passive aggressiveness:
Please don't confuse my own cultural sensitivity for an attack. We are a Global server. You could be anywhere and not everywhere can relate to a metaphor as they lack the same experiences to base it on.

@"There's a door over that away!"
As you refuse to see the point there, I won't waste either of our time beating a dead horse. What has needed saying has been said. Our server is not so black and white, and everyone getting super offended with this rhetoric should already realize that.

@Player attitudes toward the Team and toward eachother:
Actually, that's not a rant. That's an assessment. The terminology is that already used in Player and DM posts alike. If the terminology is something you wish to address, please do something constructive to that end. I'd love to help!

(;,,; ) ( .''''.) (;,,; ) ( .''''.) (;,,; ) ( .''''.) (;,,; ) ( .''''.) (;,,; )
Weeeooowweeeooooweeeeooooweeeeooo

Back to the more immediate topic though:


As a player, I'd take the moment given for self reflection and consider ways I, as a player, could help expedite the changes I would like to see. As a DM here, I'd agree, or be able to see where that is coming from. Then again, I understand what I write. Not all folks seem to, and that's a communication failure on my end. All I can do for that is apologize for whatever it is that didn't mash and clarify as best I can. I truly wish I had Yoss's gift for language.


As a Global online community, sometimes you need to use some OOC to round out the rough edges of how people speak. It serves a purpose in helping to keep the peace. I stress it as a tool, not a crutch. That's why I still support it. In an ideal world, I'd be right there with you.


Not a bad sentiment. I truly hope that we eventually can.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I agree with a lot of what Eurgiga presented, player wrangling included. What still lies at the root of it for me is something I don't think I've been able to quite articulate before. The us-vs-them mentality is part of it, but as Rift said, it doesn't come from nowhere. I think it's time we ask some questions about things we have forever taken for granted, both sides of the screen.

The issue that is still at the core of it all is that now, more than ever, it seems like there's a growing loss of agency as a player. You would be right in saying that we've never really been a democracy; but why in years past did that not feel a huge issue until now? Why, in years past, was I so willing to throw my RP and character into the hands of the Team and now, I won't even bother with asking for a bio change? Experience? Loss of trust? I don't know, but I know I'm not alone in being concerned for it any more. Players are constantly asked to trust in the team, but when that trust falls through or something goes awry, they have no say but what they are allowed. DMs are end of the line. They pick their successors. The team sheds one vestige for another year to year. And the spirit and banner of the teams are routinely outlived by individual players and the server as a whole. I know Letum expressed that we shouldn't be too concerned with what changes might happen down the road, but that's exactly what led us here. Does having to ask to go to the bathroom impede my freedom to do so? Not directly, but it is certainly a state of lesser agency than when I was allowed to go on my own without asking anyone. There now becomes, however unlikely, the possibility that I will be told no, I cannot: that's discomforting. And all because a few people wet their pants. That's what the requesting of non-NWN classes out of the blue felt like to me and a lot of players it seems. For most of us, it isn't that we doubt you'll let us go, but why did we have to ask in the first place? And if you're just going to let the majority of us go(rubber stamp tons of things), then why didn't you just reprimand the offenders than making yet another hoop for the rest of the class to jump through?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

What I'm saying is, I think Amia would benefit from a sort of social contract. A written one. Not a gentleman's promise from this team or the next, not an assurance that things aren't as bad as they seem, not more words that inevitably fall through once the mouth that spoke them has left. What I mean is an agreement that we, as players, can hold even the team to. "We will refrain from enforcing opinion as law." "If we don't know, we will tell you we don't know, rather than act as if we do and further confuse you." "We will respect all previously approved requests and RP, save in instances in which the mechanical future of the server is at state." "The freedom of the individual player is to be valued without respect to opinions regarding that player." That sort of thing. And I know it's scary; "you're tying our hands!" you cry. Well, when they're not tied, players like me and others now get picked clean when you and your approving nods vacate the position. Others are simply scared off or discouraged from doing what they would otherwise be capable of.

I know this isn't smoothing over the issue of "us vs them" when I'm basically addressing the DM team, but in truth, it does feel like that more and more and I'm sincerely offering my opinion on why it does. There's little accountability when dealing with the Team. Disco has said many times that Amia is not a priority for him right now, so it's a unrealistic to constantly tote him as the guy to go to when this issue continually rears its head. Short of the server catching on fire, I think he's cool. There are for most purposes two parties at work, and one of them can literally go "we don't like your RP/item/character, even though he was fine last week/before any of us were DMs. Change it because we say so." It's happened and I frankly got tired of being told that it wasn't, when I was experiencing it and when I heard of others experiencing it. It was like being smothered in my sleep and the guy holding the pillow was going "shh, shhh, you're dreaming." If "you're players too" then why doesn't it feel like it for so many of us?

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About what Prison said up there:

The fact is that I don't want to leave. I love Amia, and I want to help the server grow to be more enjoyable generally, and not just for my taste. And reading the "if you don't like it, leave" makes me feel like I should leave.

Just that.

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Womans in your town

Well. I rarely speak up in this kind of discussions. Mostly because I never had big issues with how things are handled around here. That changed.

I am /not/ going to drag my complains to the light over here (PMed DMs some time ago, still not sure what the result will be) Just wanted to say that there is some injustice of how players are treating each other. Which in turn leads to awkward situations that DMs need to fix afterwards.

But it happens. And when it does, something has to be done though. Otherwise it's just leads to situation, where it's not fun to play. It's not fun to play on a server where some PCs have more rights than the other.

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Cyn & Velden story ~ life after death
'Now life has killed the dream I dreamed.'

Exactly. Worst part is, typically the offenders lack an actual reason for their actions. To them, I say shape the fuck up and shame on you. We don't need that kind of vitriol here, and if need be, the team can always crack down on it harder than we already do. The warning system we use presently is fair and gives you wiggle room to improve, don't give us a reason to reexamine it.

For the love of dearest things, what makes being considerate of eachother so hard? We DMs can do it as we hold ourselves to a higher standard. I've seen our Drow Community at each other's throats before, and had to have a hauntingly similar chat with them a few years back. In the years since then? They've figured it out, and I couldn't be prouder of them. It took some time and there wasn't a 'quick fix.' If they can do it, you can too.

If 2015 turns out like 2014, that's still going to be 2000 issues this year. I challenge you to do better.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

What if I have an issue with your face? Are you going to fix your face?



All nonsense aside, I think this is definitly something to be aware of. It's somewhat innate to the game, as people get invested in their characters and tensions can run high. Mind, this is entirely different than being passionate about the game - the kind of tension that spawns nasty OOC conflict tends to revolve around passion for the own character, at best.

But I think this discussion is going off track again. Let's go back to the original concept and the role of players, DM's and devs - and their relation to one another, please.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

I just want to say that I was in attendance (secretly) during BoB's event last night. Loved it. The only bad thing was the number of people which caused lag and hard-to-read chat. And she ran a second for others who couldn't stand the lag, encouraging the more involved people to sit the second out and the less involved to join the second. That is exactly what Amia needs.

Thanks BoB. Regardless of my irritation at your posting tone recently, I have always liked you (and our cybering) and I'm happy to have been involved in the event.

I've been a part of two other random events (really small ones involving just a hunting party) but that was a couple of years ago. I want to see more of that. Randomly dropping in on hunting parties makes things super fun!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I agree, you jackasses stop being asshats to each other! You fuckers can learn something from me, I'm always nice even if you lot are a bunch of pricks most of the time.

Fuck.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

The commentary on refocusing and how it has some circular arguing are all well and good, but maybe one of us should sum up the points of this thread like Amarice did in the other to assist in directing the future flow! I am at work and can't right now- will try later if no one else wants to.

Few things I wanted to touch on from the more recent posts.

VitalTouch is correct that the environment of party chat has shifted, to the point when I'll actually log out of the DM client sometimes because of the amount of backbiting and snowballing of rumors that I see spread like wildfire some days. And it's not even usually about DMs, it's usually about other players! Why, guys? Nothing kills the IC mindset, a DM's desire to run an IC event, or a feeling of community on the server faster than that sort of OOC bile, especially when it's right IG. So please police yourselves, and police each other; if you're in a party and someone starts down that path, just ask that they keep things IC, and vent to someone on skype or something if they must. That's not ideal either mind but... it's better than keeping it IG.

DarkImmolation's base concept of DM versus GM setup is something along the same lines of what a few people have suggested, in one form or another, independently. It's also akin to a split of the DM job description that I've been mulling over in my own mind for quite a few months now because I've seen how many of our great plot DMs are sidelined, burned out, and not doing anything now because of all the other crap that there is to wade through. Part of the job description? Sure, but that doesn't make the negative impact it's having, any less real. So, maybe the job description needs to change.

Eurgiga, it's funny you linked that thread where all the new folks commented, had lots of discussion, etc. I actually still have it bookmarked as something that I very much want to go through, and draw inspiration and direction from. So it hasn't really been ignored or forgotten just... keeps getting pushed to the side in light of other things... like "all of this" I know, I know... I'm so far behind I think I'm ahead You're right that most discussions inevitably end up devolving, on both (or all if there are more than two) sides and dieing a slow (or fast if locked) death. I'll make a somewhat radical suggestion below (don't know if it'll be a good one, but hey).

Oh and also something that Eurgiga touched on that I've meant to make a point of myself, is the "simple requests" thing. I've been compiling notes from this thread to bring up for a more focused discussion later on, once the dust has settled some.


As for the "idea"... we have the Improving Amia forum, we have a lot of things that are brought up in General Discussion also, any many of the more controversial ideas or issues end up turning into giant threadnaughts that suck up player, DM and Dev time alike in reading, contemplating, posting, moderating; time we'd all probably rather spend RPing, DMing or doing design work. People invariably get frustrated, things are said on all sides of any debate that we may not actually mean but are a product of the heat of the moment, or the ever-increasing emotions produced by such discussion and debate. Generally it becomes a mess. And a lot of the time, as Eurgiga said, nothing comes of it in the end for those reasons. Which... kinda defeats the purpose, right? We've used up all that time that we could have been using on what we really are here for... and all we have to show for it most days is frustrated players, frustrated DMs, frustrated Devs... no one wins.

However, we still absolutely need the opportunity to bring up things that we think need improvement, issues that we see as potentially harmful to the community, or even just to spitball new ideas that pop into our noggins at 0400. Change and growth are good.

My thought would be a sort of "purge" say, 2-4 times a year, for example. Now I'm not talking the movie Purge and we all go around murdering each other on the forums. But rather that we all keep notes through the year and "save up" our ideas for improvement, or suggestions on what needs changing, for these specific times in the year.

What (I think) this would look like and do for us, would be 3-6 months of just playing the damn game, whether it be RPing playerside, RPing DMside or making changes to the world based on RP, or all of the above for some folks. Bugs would still be fixed when reported (don't laugh, I'll get to that 6 page bug thread one of these days...), DMs will still help mediate between players when they cannot do so themselves, the support structures would still be there. But all the other big threads on change would be ignored (hopefully by as many people as possible!) in favor of being IG as much as possible.

Then we have those 2-4 months in the year when, for the duration of that month, the posting begins! Things slow IG for that month (just be default of time constraint) and we turn out attention to what we learned and observed about our community in the last "session" if you will, and where we think improvements could be made. Requests slow during this time, NPC interaction, plots, activity IG both from players and DMs, design implementation peters out a little as we all focus on what we can each do to improve the status quo. After that month (or less if it doesn't take that long, but cut it off at a month max) we go back to what we love to do the most; RP IG.

It's a controversial idea perhaps... I don't know if it would even work, but I can see potential in it at least to allow us to, as a collective community, find our footing once again and get thing done right, while enjoying the game we all came here to play.

What this server needs is process control!

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Could you elaborate please, Numbers?

Basically issue I see it is that we have a process but there's no follow up, or internal checks. So people can do MONTHS of RP and it can be vanished by an error, a lack of communication among the team etc.

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Ah, alright, good to point out. Thanks for the input. Sort of further to what was touched on by Dark Immolation (I think?) about the simple requests, etc.

Even if it's just a spreadsheet on google drives or something - a log like that can prove invaluable
easy to update and so forth.

(as I commented earlier in this thread, I'm working in Manufacturing urrently, but there's a lot of general development and flow stuff that is broadly applicable in terms of solutions and options for anything)

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Yes. The players who get easily butthurt over something minor that happened IG need to deal with it without grabbing a DM immediately. I've seen how much time is wasted for everyone involved just so nothing can be done retrospectively other than saying who was right and who was wrong. Everyone needs to chill out and try to avoid silly conflicts so much. Ain't nobody gots time fo' dat.

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There's actually a notion on the server concept that I'd like to bring up for consideration, as it encapsulates many of my thoughts.

How 'real' do we want the server/setting to be?

For example, if such could be done with an acceptable investment of manhours by the dev team, would you be in favor of implementing any of the following?
- Characters need to eat and drink regularly or start suffering penalties.
- Ambient weather affects characters. Mist and rain can increase Spot DC's. Desert heat causes fatigue. Cold weather causes frostbite.
- Characters can only run so far (depending on Constitution) until they run out of steam and need to rest. No more sprinting across the island.
- Characters are slowed to various degrees by armor. Except dwarves, who are slower to begin with. This makes positioning all the more important, but also makes skirmishing a viable tactic.

The following is something I'm particularly curious about:
- Implementing spell components or some other measure (like a HP cost) to make casting spells more a strategic/tactical decision than the whimsical handwaving it currently is. This might rebalance things in favor of non-casters somewhat.
- Magic potions have negative aftereffects. Health potions "wear off" after a while, causing some damage. Ability improvement potions cause a penalty after wearing off. The idea behind this is that potions push the body/magic/whatever to unnatural heights, which whiplashes back around after a while. It also supports and encourages the notion that magic potions (and magic in general) are addictive. I was certainly intrigued by a certain PC's Limitless-like interpretation of Owl's Wisdom potions, and the subsequent addiction.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

Some of those ideas I like, but not in the way one might think. I like them only in terms of their context.



Unnecessary on the scale that Arelith does it. In our settings of the Amian Island and the other locations in the Trackless Sea/Sea of Swords, food is generally readily available, either in settlements or just in terms of carrying around rations. It therefore becomes an inventory filler that doesn't contribute much of anything to the enjoyment of the server and the challenge is minimal to nil.

The exception to that is during the context of a specific DM Event that sees PCs, either of lower level or of lacking magical aptitude, into an isolated area for an extended period of time where food/water is either scarce or dangerous to eat/drink. Only in that context do I like the notion of dehydration/starvation penalties.

There is another context I like, that of the chronic overeater (glutton) mental problem who does become so hungry he or she will eat ridiculous things and may feel like they are starving. Or the monstrous cannibal whose desire to consume is less about hunger and more about a need to kill and feed to sate the consumptive desire. But I'm not likely to see that often.



There are within the realm of possibility and have already somewhat been implemented. They are environmental conditions/hazards. I do not think they should be buckshotted into the gaming world, but rather made a part of a hunting area/dungeon or sometimes unveiled during DM Events (a heavy fog rolls into Cordor, reducing visibility and spot checks to notice evil mutant frogs crawling out of the sewers). I was already talking briefly with some of the Dev team about altitude sickness in some areas, mild at the top of the Crags and a little more severe in Brog.



It feels a little like the eating thing to me. It rarely seems to make a big difference and would just encourage people to skip nicely designed areas in favor of teleport-transportation even moreso. Though that is not a good argument against it because that speaks more to the implementation of areas than anything else.



This was discussed before, since PnP armors reduce or hamper base movement speed. The Slow effect was too restricting, and it was apparently far too difficult/complex/impossible to implement changes to actual movement speed based upon armor type. After talking it back and forth with somebody (maybe it was Glim?) I reasoned it was something best left alone.



Although a part of me loathes it, the Forgotten Realms is a bit of a handwavey-magic setting. Some refer to that as a "high magic" setting. The balance is inherent in that everyone and their brother has access to high magic, but this ultimately sucks for non-casters even in Amia who tend to be more than a little outpaced. Balancing that is an entirely different discussion that involves different things like summon balancing, for one. In the current dynamic, anything that increases the GP expenditure of a caster can double back on non-casters when casters start charging them more to compensate. I have considered the possibility of gold cost for summons, but...I don't know. That issue is just a very complex one and needs to be hammered out in exacting detail by the Dev Team, but it is so daunting with so little promise of actual effect that it isn't really worth it.



I think there may be better ways to implement this concept that might be more lore-accurate, but they escape me. I like the idea, and it actually fits into something I think I may be slowly introducing soon, but that depends upon how much support I can drag out of the DM/Dev teams.

Penalties to potions will again harm non-casters most

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

It would, yes. It isn't lore-accurate and it creates more problems, but there is something totally different on my mind that doesn't affect potions. I will play that close to my chest for now, though.

Oh my word, I think this would actually make me quit playing. Depending on the scale, I suppose, heh.


This could be intersting, if feasible. We sort of do it with environmental damage, after all.


Eh, I don't like this idea very much. Cart/portal travel makes the idea not very effective pretty much right away, but also making travel more of a PITA (and by extension leveling) is not a good idea.


Seen this brought up before and I don't really like the idea.


You would have to jack up costs a lot to make it feasible. Most components are simple and cheap to acquire so they wouldn't make that much of a dent.


I think this would negatively affect leveling more than anything and therefore be an unnecessary detriment.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Considering the heights of which a PC's equipment increases their ability scores well beyond their natural capacity, the potions idea isn't feasible if your body or mind are already conditioned to being pushed up to a certain limit.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Naivatkal
+1

I had just the bare bones of some food, maneuver, and weather effects somewhere, but got a new computer tossed all my toolset stuff when I left. I could post the general ideas, but that's not what this thread is about. Maybe later. Suffice to say they hold to my motto of "balance by addition." So players aren't penalized at all for not doing any of these optional things, but instead are encouraged and decently rewarded when they think about "roleplay" things like rations for a trip. Or just what additional actions(not currently in the game) that a character could take that might be hindered--or helped--by things like armor weight, ambient effects, etc.

Anyway, my answer to Elorathall would be as real to the point it doesn't hinder current gameplay. So where we are now is pretty good. That's our groove as a server. Things can be as "real" as we want so long as it doesn't feel like we're doing chores first before we can actually play the game. Having to chug your 8 daily glasses of water and get 2000 calories before you can join people in the Frozen Wastes is a chore. However, getting a few temp HP after resting, because the party Baker gave everyone some bread before they settled in is an incentive to be and think in-character.

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I don't see how the implementation or certain more "realistic" mechanics would help the server define itself.
Not in the direction that we are looking for at least. Or at least, not these changes in general.

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Womans in your town

Well, as you might have gathered, the purpose of my questions was to set up a discussion as to just how realistic/hardcore or casual we feel the server is and/or should be. This goes broader than mechanics alone, but it also goes into area design, atmosphere, plots and rules - especially those related to restricted character concepts/classes.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

Actually, in regards to a Hunger/Thirst/Fatigue system, it would be REALLY cool if we could get something like that, but make it optional. People who enjoy that hardcore side of things can have it active, while people who don't like it can keep it turned off. Another server I played (can't remember the name) did that, actually, and it was pretty great.

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I think Elorathall is onto something, though... Where is the server going, guys? And do you like it love t and want some more of it?

For my part, I think the server needs to get away from the constant 'competition' and need to 'win' that seems so prevalent. When we can sit down together and tell a good story without any honest regard to what that story will turn out to be, then I think we can really figure out where the server can go.

Mind that this is an 'average', and doesn't automatically encompass all. "The average always holds true", quoted from R.A. Salvatore.

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I Am:
Derrin: 'Nothing to see here'
Beck: Hard working dwarf paladin.
Naela 'Widow': Wandering priestess.
Celinor Triellian: Paladin of Corellon.

I second the above. Striving to win IC is all well and good, but when it expands to OOC, that is when problems (and tempers) arise.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

As a reminder and/or suggestion:

Keep your posts concise. Some people have jobs and families, and reading through lengthy posts, though wickedly smart they may be, consumes a lot of time and energy. Read what has been written hitherto, and if your point has already been made, you don't need to repeat it. If you really want the whole DM team to contribute, it would be helpful to keep this as easy-to-read as possible. Seconding people is bad unless you clearly expand on it: you don't need a rabble to make a point.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

Nonesense, long post:

Through the course of a conversation with IronAngel about the current situation of Amia, I think we came across an aspect we had not yet touched upon specifically – even though it is tied to a big part of this situation. That is the greater amount of DM investment of time and energy the DM Team needs to put in.

Amia in the recent years has placed a much greater focus on the political roleplay of cities. This primarily as a byproduct (but not exclusive to) of the Reyes plot, that I think was as much as a player driven reaction as it was a dm driven reaction. If you look back at how Amia was four years ago, you could notice a few very big changes. Cities have become factions, faction leaders have become state officials, and political plots have become a standard. A few years back, the only playerun cities I can think of were Edonil and Barak Runedar.

These plotlines require a lot more DM attention. Instead of players of factions influencing parts of the city political roleplay, they often times run it. That up’s the stakes, require a lot more details, and requires the DMs to be consistently on call for developments. If you compare the activity of Tormak and Riegela as the Kohl DMs, the contrasting demand of time and energy is just plainly insane. And Kohl is not the exception here. Riegela has to handle more in a week, than Tormak had to in four months. And I am not exaggerating, nor saying Tormak did way too little.

Not only does it up the stakes, make the plots bigger, but it divides the playerbase. In my opinion, this is in no small part of why the allstar-problem manifested so prominently during the Reyes plotline. Those who become a part of this city-factions require a lot more DM attention just because of the nature of that roleplay. They have massive amount of resources, and in turn the regular adventurers and factions are reduced to the little leagues in comparison that have little to no influence. In addition, if adventuring events do happen, the player officials usually handle and oversee those as well - usually because they tie into those complicated city-plotlines.

I also believe that this may be a big reason of why we see so little player initiatives in regard to a mage academy, or religious ceremonies, or bardic festivals and storytelling gatherings. The player type who usually saw to those, are instead behind closed doors in meetings handling the political crisis and endeavors of the cities. Not to mention, the pressure on the players of those positions is insane and unforgiving - cutting down on the number of those who could even play in the major leagues. A few who dared just quit due to a burnout - because it is so cutthroat and unforgiving. Upset a dwarf official, suddenly an alliance is at stake and everyone is mad at you.

If Rigela would have spent the time I needed her kohl NPCs for instead on small events, and I in turn spent half the time of the meetings about political and military affairs of Robert doing player-run events, I believe it would have benefited Kohlingen a lot more. I think it would have been far less of a burn-out problem for either of us.

But the amount of DM investment of time and energy the DM Team needs to put in is not only reserved for this change of Amia. The greater amount of quality control consumes a lot of time as well.

This all ties into a variety of smaller issues, including less accessable plots, less dc spread, burnouts, difficulty for evil factions to get ground against city-factions, etc, etc.

I agree with the conciseness bit, but "seconding" is about the only way to show that there is more than one person feeling the same way. Good as a point may be, sometimes nothing comes of it when it seems like only a few people are concerned. Even without the issue of players being heard or not, there's still a relevant numbers game; issues that affect more people get looked at more quickly.

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You can neatly compile the relevant points afterward (subjective, I know, but the DM team has to be given some veto as to where to draw the line exactly) and conduct a survey based on them. If any proper changes are going to be made, gods willing, it might as well be based on proper information. I assure you, it's the better way of doing things and doesn't require any extra; on the contrary, it might prove easier to pull off with the right method.

Seconding can be just sporadic and susceptible to hype and "aggressive" (for want of a better word) forum behaviour, which clearly doesn't depict the majority of the server (i.e. there must be a very high variation in the amount of posts per player). Not that a poll would be perfect either, but at least those too timid or less zealous wouldn't have to do more than simply click an option to voice their concern.

EDIT: Hackums' topic Which Conflict Would You Like to See? is a good example of a more methodical approach. Though if I ever were a DM - gods forbid! - I would just grab the server by its nonexistent balls and have my way with it.

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Every time you clock in the morning, I feel you just want to kill
All my innocence while ignoring my purpose to persevere as a better person
I know you heard this and probably in fear
-Kendrick Lamar, good kid

+1
Seconded.
I second this post
QFE.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Yoss pretty much summed up my thoughts on things like thirst/hunger/armor slow, etc. Even as an optional system, that's taking Dev time away from things that would more greatly benefit all the players on Amia, not just those that may optionally want to use it. It might be nice as an optional thing, one day, but not until other more widely used things are fixed or updated first, kinda idea.

Any feedback on my "periodic purge" concept would be greatly appreciated still.

Glim, I think it is with 'good will' that most of the player base make suggestions in IA. You know... "Improving Amia".

Number-wise (nb of open ideas vs scripters) 'we' beat 'you'. Always. The Dev Team is faced with a number of suggestions which obviously can't be adressed (read: scripted, 2da'ed, hak'ed...etc) unless you spend 100x more time than it took us to write the post.

Pausing IA for a second and breathing (through DMIG, questing, NPC possessing) is definitely a good idea if you feel like it, really. This should be fun for everyone, else nothing good will come out of it.
We're all here to get rid of RL stress, pressure and deadlines.

I may be naive, but I don't see how anyone would criticize your desire to pause the technical improvement work for two months every quarter...

We went through a pause on scripted requests for a while.
Selfishly, I can only say 'If you were to chose between IA and scripts, help us be creative' (and help us personalize our gaming experience).
Watching a cool spell or custom ability is definitely worth more of your time than fixing damage reduction on combat dummies.

L.

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Nana Anvilmar - Slower Talking, Faster Running
Lester, Jester, Chandler, Alchemister !
Pauris Sennemen de Laelith - Merchant (currently in Suzail, Cormyr)
Metzlitemoctzin - Payit slave, now freed from Silent's sadostyle of plotting !

Reviving this thread and setting it back on track. While I have to say that I think outright- leaving- over the issue is heartbreaking and pessimistic and removes another person able to contribute to the narrative to repair the situation, Aiseth's farewell succinctly summarizes what Amia is desperately lacking. A narrative. I'll repost it here, because it's damn poignant. All the dev work in the world is lovely and necessary and appreciated, but the place is frighteningly hollow right now.



Also, a link to my previous thoughts on the matter, so I'm not bloating the post with copy pasta: viewtopic.php?p=1327412#p1327412

You play dungeons and dragons for the story, not the dungeons (and our dungeons don't even have dragons). Character development cannot happen organically and convincingly in a vacuum.