AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

If anything, I'm for the opposite. Getting to level 30 is already preposterously easy, and being level 30 is essentially meaningless. If we're going to change the XP rate, it should be made harder to get to high epic levels, not easier.

Alaria- wrote:

Didn't we have a similar discussion a while ago which resulted in the DC XP raise?

Just leave things as they are in my opinion. I don't think the arguments posed for this one goes all the way. I personally don't like characters who show up, rush to 30 and only then start RPing. Giving them easier access to it supports 'altitis'(which I also don't like!) and the prior mentioned behaviour. This is just my personal opinion.

This is a great post, let me dissect it.

We can keep plugging holes, bailing water, saving people from a plague but eventually the fish tank will be empty.

Going to an Alt, we all have reasons for this. To start something unique, to find a new playstyle or rp that we can enjoy, to escape monotity that a single character can bring, maybe even to forget about the next batch of XP you need to collect.

We can argue for faster XP, this could reduce the number of alts or increase the number of alts. People may be more satisfied with their characters if they had more time to RP, or they might succumb to a pseudo story teller style.

With Fymor, I had some great moments out in the field, but those moments vanish when the trip turns into a three hour kill-click fest, something to get out of the way that might only be sprinkled with vague dialogs.

The main root of this debate... is that I feel that RP feels inadequate when one party begins to doubt their ability to sway the story, LVL, XP rates, DreamCoins...

If leveling wasn't an exponential mechanical advantage, then people would be happy. If I said the most powerful adventurers were powerful not for their ability to kill, spot, or otherwise one-up another with numbers - but to use their literal adventuring experience to come out on top... consistantly... with skill... that is what makes someone Epic, a figure among the people.

But D&D and NwN isn't really designed for that to be automated. It's designed for a DM to present circumstantial and appropriately skill based encounters while the knowledge of the players increases in tandem to the story and in turn, further challenges.

What if we didn't have ECL zones, but appropriate adventures... EVERYWHERE!? ANYWHERE!

A taxing pipedream I worry that won't happen.

We can't expect DM's to always be there.
We can't expect the Devs to put in the rediculous amount of effort.
And we can't expect everyone who likes the old to like the new.
We can't risk that change either.

This is Amia, it's too old to be anything else.

So for now, back to the band-aid solutions. I'm not voting on this poll, because neither is the answer.

LibrisMortis_666 wrote:

I think we need to EARN level 30. Your character literally goes through serious changes, not just mechanical but RP. Depending if you grind via the usual leveling you face many monsters, and much death. If you level through harvesting e.t.c then you're going through the same just not violent. There is no use to just raise the EXP when it's perfect now. Does it take a while to hit 30? Yes. Is it worth the time? Sometimes. I have a level 3 that has rebuilt 2 times from 30ish and I don't bother to level him again. He is level 30 and all I do is hang out and rp. Do I outmatch people in rp via levels? Nupe. Shouldn't stop you from enjoying your time. You only /need/ level 30 if you think you need it.

Props to Fymor for doing the same!

Thought a few times about retorting, I need to chime in and elaborate since I did begin leveling once more (after a very long time without leveling).

With a list of things that require more lvl's to achieve!

- Player Housing (Golly, how do the commoners live!?)
- Faster Gold Earning (Cause RP props cost gold you know)
- Class Specific RP Enhancers (Ranger Animal Companions? Check. PnP Spells? Check.)
- Stealth (without entering the truesight/invis meta war!)
- LvL Restricted Equipment (seriously, all I wanted to do was wear my designer attires, or blow a dinky horn, or fire a certain arrow, or you know... HOLD A SHOVEL!?)
- Job Log (that sweet sweet job log)

Richard_Edmund wrote:

I actualy like the idea of increasing XP rates by 5-10%

The problem is that OP is requesting to raise up the xp rate 5-10 !! X !!

*puts on his math glasses*

Which means, on level 5 your average Joe the Warrior gets 35 xp for one dead orc warrior.

If we take the middle road and say the xp rate is going to raise 7x, it means Joe would recieve (turns on the beloved Windows calculator) 245 xp.

And to level from level 5 to level 6 requires 5,000 xp. Do the rest of the math (Calculator stopped working, send report to Microsoft).

That said I do not even mention high tier mobs like Yeti, which gives you 76 xp on kill on level 28!!!!!

Alaria- wrote:

Didn't we have a similar discussion a while ago which resulted in the DC XP raise?

Just leave things as they are in my opinion. I don't think the arguments posed for this one goes all the way. I personally don't like characters who show up, rush to 30 and only then start RPing. Giving them easier access to it supports 'altitis'(which I also don't like!) and the prior mentioned behaviour. This is just my personal opinion.

The ones who want to wait to 30 for real RP are gonna do it anyway. Are you gonna let the junkies do whatever, or at least give them clean needles?

Some people have altitis. Because you don't like it won't change that it's there. Additionally, what's wrong with someone strong showing up on the island? Not that anyone actually can show up at 15+, but some want to feel like it, and faster leveling can help that. Not everyone likes showing up green. Especially those who've been playing the game for a long time and/or have altitis (which I know is frowned upon generally, but it's not going away).

I guess what I don't really understand is, who would this hurt? This being a slight to mild xp increase.

Also, can xp penalties be tossed? Those don't make much sense to me. That is to say, why can a fighter/rogue get a xp penalty and a fighter/assassin not? It seems purely mechanical and to carry no RP value. But maybe I'm wrong.

Leveling is already very easy. Anything easier would make it seem effortless and as sort of a "not really serious" server. I would not change it.

Nalkanar wrote:

Leveling is already very easy. Anything easier would make it seem effortless and as sort of a "not really serious" server.

Very this. How preposterously easy is it to get to level 30? It's so easy that even I, the worst gamer in the world, have done it five or six times.

Nalkanar wrote:

I would not change it.

I would. I'd make leveling *harder*, not easier. As it stands, being level 30 is essentially meaningless.

I think we need to shift the topic more towards why grinding is a bad thing and what we might not like about it.

Since... that seems to be something everyone brings up and assumes is really obvious but doesn't elaborate upon.

Lets get to the root causes shall we?

Nalkanar wrote:

Leveling is already very easy. Anything easier would make it seem effortless and as sort of a "not really serious" server. I would not change it.

Can you provide a specific example for us to discuss your viewpoint with? What is a regular timeframe to reach 30 for 'you', where have 'you' seen this elsewhere? Can you provide some examples of players content or happy with the system and if so, players who arn't? What are your own experiences with such?

treasured memories wrote:

The ones who want to wait to 30 for real RP are gonna do it anyway. Are you gonna let the junkies do whatever, or at least give them clean needles?

Some folk don't make it to thirty before they've had enough and seek other venues. In the end, nothing can really determine the outcome for each players journey to thirty or motivation. Rather moot to debate I feel.

treasured memories wrote:

Some people have altitis. Because you don't like it won't change that it's there. Additionally, what's wrong with someone strong showing up on the island? Not that anyone actually can show up at 15+, but some want to feel like it, and faster leveling can help that. Not everyone likes showing up green. Especially those who've been playing the game for a long time and/or have altitis (which I know is frowned upon generally, but it's not going away).

There was a lot of debate on this topic previously in a seperate thread but doesn't really end up relevant to this exact discussion on XP rates and flow for existing characters. Rather heavy debate, not that I remember the thread. Give it a search.

treasured memories wrote:

I guess what I don't really understand is, who would this hurt? This being a slight to mild xp increase.

Why else? Let some player skip levels you have to let all of them do such. That means the early content (which there is a lot of developed opposed to end game) becomes chaff. The server started with low level start in mind, and was built from the ground up on the principle. It would take too much development time to change this now.

treasured memories wrote:

Also, can xp penalties be tossed? Those don't make much sense to me. That is to say, why can a fighter/rogue get a xp penalty and a fighter/assassin not? It seems purely mechanical and to carry no RP value. But maybe I'm wrong.

A relic of the engine I think, and D&D. In a campaign setting, start to an end this mattered greatly as it rewarded those who forsook the fun goodies of mixing other classes. It would have been complicated to give an xp bonus to everyone except outlyers, so they gave penalties to the complex group, making it easier on less knowledgable or new players to work with. Negative reinforcement once again proving to be a poor method of behaviour manipulation.

Quote:

If we take the middle road and say the xp rate is going to raise 7x, it means Joe would recieve (turns on the beloved Windows calculator) 245 xp.

Adding 7% to 35 is only 37.5. I meant adding percentages, not multiply.

You maybe, I said OP.

OpenTheRift wrote:

I simply propose, that for the sake of longevity, and diversity we increase the XP rate 5-10x it's current settings.

See?

Derp.

Some people dont want to level too fast. Some people don't want to level too slowly. The answer may very well lie in the middle. Upping XP gains by 3-5X until level TWENTY would allow people to get to a level wherein they could have all the skills you'd need to RP the character you want to or feasibly challenge a level 30, but still be at a disadvantage. And then make the grind to 30 rewarding as you don't -need- those extra levels.

We can't really use Canon or in a lot cases the Mechanics of the game as a basis for balance. A level one shouldnt have 6-10hp, while a 30 have 300-600. You shouldn't be able to flick your finger at level 1 and insta kill them. It isn't realistic.

The general gist of my opinion being - make it easy to get to a mechanically usable point, but make it hard to get to that "Epic point".

If your leveling too quickly and you want to really RP as progressing at a much slower rate? Either dont take the levels, purposefully dont use strong gear (Take off your boots, ammy, rings etc...) or refrain from using higher level abilties. Such as a Wizard only using less then 3rd circle spells, even though he might have 9th.

In my opinion at least, it's not a matter of wishing I could level more slowly. Of course I could do that; I could just kill fewer monsters. Rather, it's a matter of wishing that level 30 actually meant something, wishing that the pinnacle of advancement would be at least a bit of an accomplishment, rather than the routine outcome of a week's worth of grinding.

In other words: I don't want to RP progressing at a slower rate, I want to actually have to progress at a slower rate.

lilmarcat wrote:

Some people dont want to level too fast. Some people don't want to level too slowly. The answer may very well lie in the middle. Upping XP gains by 3-5X until level TWENTY would allow people to get to a level wherein they could have all the skills you'd need to RP the character you want to or feasibly challenge a level 30, but still be at a disadvantage. And then make the grind to 30 rewarding as you don't -need- those extra levels.

We can't really use Canon or in a lot cases the Mechanics of the game as a basis for balance. A level one shouldnt have 6-10hp, while a 30 have 300-600. You shouldn't be able to flick your finger at level 1 and insta kill them. It isn't realistic.

The general gist of my opinion being - make it easy to get to a mechanically usable point, but make it hard to get to that "Epic point".

If your leveling too quickly and you want to really RP as progressing at a much slower rate? Either dont take the levels, purposefully dont use strong gear (Take off your boots, ammy, rings etc...) or refrain from using higher level abilties. Such as a Wizard only using less then 3rd circle spells, even though he might have 9th.

Also, doesn't the rest menu have an option for your character not to gain XP from a battle? Not sure how it works as I've never used it!

treasured memories wrote:

Alaria- wrote:

Didn't we have a similar discussion a while ago which resulted in the DC XP raise?

Just leave things as they are in my opinion. I don't think the arguments posed for this one goes all the way. I personally don't like characters who show up, rush to 30 and only then start RPing. Giving them easier access to it supports 'altitis'(which I also don't like!) and the prior mentioned behaviour. This is just my personal opinion.

The ones who want to wait to 30 for real RP are gonna do it anyway. Are you gonna let the junkies do whatever, or at least give them clean needles?

They will, but it boils down to effort. I will not support an initiative where minimalistic effort is required to get new, fresh characters to the top levels unless they spent DCs for it. (Which in turn was a reward for roleplaying). We have already seen examples where people make new (evil) characters, level them up, wreak havoc and then just discard the characters. What the topic suggests only makes such behaviour easier and I don't want to support it out of principle.

I am of course biased since starting here I have only had two characters.

Quote:

Some people have altitis. Because you don't like it won't change that it's there. Additionally, what's wrong with someone strong showing up on the island?

Nothing is wrong with that! Just pay the DCs for it. We made that system better just the last time this conversation popped up. I think it's enough.

Quote:

Not that anyone actually can show up at 15+, but some want to feel like it, and faster leveling can help that. Not everyone likes showing up green. Especially those who've been playing the game for a long time and/or have altitis (which I know is frowned upon generally, but it's not going away).

I guess what I don't really understand is, who would this hurt? This being a slight to mild xp increase.

Increasing experience gain by 5 to 10 times (as the topic suggests) is by no means a 'slight to mild' XP increase, but I can see your point! What did you have in mind to counter that proposal?

Liz wrote:

In my opinion at least, it's not a matter of wishing I could level more slowly. Of course I could do that; I could just kill fewer monsters. Rather, it's a matter of wishing that level 30 actually meant something, wishing that the pinnacle of advancement would be at least a bit of an accomplishment, rather than the routine outcome of a week's worth of grinding.

In other words: I don't want to RP progressing at a slower rate, I want to actually have to progress at a slower rate.

I absolutely agree. Before Amia I was playing on a rather hard-core server (Mystara - Black Horizon). Hardcore in terms of loot drop on death, extremely harsh penalty on death as well like stat reductions and such, very low xp rate and so on. Also, you could only have one character - no altitis allowed. I loved the server for the challange it offered, both RP-wise and character progress-wise.

Mystara was as well level 30 server. However, there was a "cap" for level 20 and from there you could only progress further via. "approvement" from the staff. Quite similiar to Dream coins here.

So not only it was near impossible to "grind" your way up to the level 20 fast, because the xp rate for grind was extremely low (10-15 xp per kill), but it was impossible to have a server filled with "epic nobody" characters, because you just could not level past level 20 without being recognized by the community and staff. There being on higher level actually was a success.

rates tbd, Meaning any rate from 2x to 2000000x

if the server wasnt hyperbolically designed around being lvl 30 and everyone was put back to 1 i too would be for lower rates. the only people who benefit from flatly introduced lower rates are the privileged old guard and their council of elders

We just need more areas for higher-level characters to have fun in.

Liz wrote:

Nalkanar wrote:

Leveling is already very easy. Anything easier would make it seem effortless and as sort of a "not really serious" server.

Very this. How preposterously easy is it to get to level 30? It's so easy that even I, the worst gamer in the world, have done it five or six times.

If you're the worst gamer in the world, then how utterly terrible am I, who have only gotten one character to 30 in seven years?

Alaria- wrote:

We have already seen examples where people make new (evil) characters, level them up, wreak havoc and then just discard the characters.

There's a reason for that, you know. Villains have to be disposable by necessity. They're already at a higher risk of being permakilled or generally screwed over, and people start complaining if they stick around anyway. Amians don't like troublemakers and try to chase them off both ICly and OOCly with worrying frequency, so obviously someone who knowingly makes an evil character is going to avoid getting attached.

Despite all that, I've still thought about making a villainous character for the purpose of creating some conflict and give people some exciting RP. Half an hour after character creation I remember how much of an investment that actually is, and stop. I just don't have it in me to spend that much time and energy on a character that I know ahead of time is going to die, and frankly I think the people who do should be applauded, not scorned.

Alaria- wrote:

Just pay the DCs for it.

"What do you mean you're poor? Just get a job." "What do you mean you can't get a date? Just be yourself." "What do you mean you're depressed? Just think positively." This is not a solution.

@op: I think the XP rates are fine. If anything, leveling is too easy, and being epic is kind of pointless. The job system makes it quite easy alongside the high XP gain from monsters.

Quote:

I just don't have it in me to spend that much time and energy on a character that I know ahead of time is going to die, and frankly I think the people who do should be applauded, not scorned.

Secondly answering this mildly offtopic thing: I think there is no expectation evil characters should suffer real consequences with their character and shoulder serious losses, while the same expectation cannot be met for good/neutral. Variably choosing what you end up losing, and ultimately to give up your character is a personal decision regardless of alignment. It's true, soldering the fall, and playing along with defeat is amazing; continue to do it when it happens, just don't automatically jump to the postlogue. Amia's perception of evil needing to be weak and lose (and never come back when they do so) is something that should be discarded, not accounted for. Don't let this stop you, and don't let someone shame you into thinking you can't respawn. We all know the heroes have died hundreds of times too.

Liz wrote:

Nalkanar wrote:

I would not change it.

I would. I'd make leveling *harder*, not easier. As it stands, being level 30 is essentially meaningless.

Well, I would not change it that much. Because if there is something that should be change it would be also loot and money distribution, since gold seems to be pointless here as well. This works and I would leave it at that. There is this annoying need to grind dungeons again and again to get to some lvl, but that is kinda hard to do in any other way.

I would imagine that leveling 5 characters to level 30 would be easy, after your first character gets there! Certainly now that my ranger has toured the isle I know where to find a few quests which will no doubt aid in leveling my dwarf without the need of DCs. Actually the one think putting me off playing my dwarf was finding myself stuck in the same hole my ranger was before throwing caution to the wind and burning DCs. I honestly don't mind a slow progression, so long as there is a progression and I'm not simply running and rerunning the same areas!

What has become painfully clear to me as a newer player on Amia was how little new people knew with regards where quests were located... this resulted in the endless running of the Orcs for at least my ranger! There doesn't seem to be direction for those who wish to run a few dungeons to gain gold and XP, even rping it out resulted in being sent to places far harder than a current level would allow! Amia, for a new player, certainly isn't easy leveling. My prior server was far far easier, you were practically spoon fed the first quests which let you level to at least 15 in a rather straightforward manner... without burning DC coins of any type!

The above said, Amia certainly isn't the hardest plan to be in either! I will add that there are a few misleading or seeming misdirection's from some npcs as to where the work is or where you can find things... then I picked up that bloody quest outside Wharftown that wants me to go and warn Uhm... a place which is no longer there!!

As it was said above for new players the direction of the NPC quest gives are quite confusing.
Personally I only made a the low lvl quest at Cordor and then I was pretty stuck...
I don't have any character lvl 30, and my higher lvl is around 25 i think... And maybe is because I don't know where to get all the quests! For example I made the cordor ones, then I grinded with some friends through dungeons and that's fun too because if you also RP it you get to know people and all that... but at some point it get tedious...
I know that in the log (I don't know if that's the name haha) you can see a "hint" about the quest... and also someone posted the quests available and the probable level range of them. But for new players most of the time don't know that... so maybe some system to guide new players with the quest?

It's always the same. You get so much help, so many boosts, the server is SUPER EASY to play, but you want it easier.

Why don't we make the server harder to play on instead? That would be more fun, if there actually would be a challenge.

It's a better idea instead of seeing people cling to lvl 30's that are over years old.

In my experience lvl means nothing. It doesn't matter if you are lvl 1 or lvl 30.
LVL does not matter unless you are pvp'ing or if you are in a dm event because our dm events cater to lvl 30. Our server focus is only on lvl 30's or tight nit groups.

Imo we should reward people who retire and perma their characters by allowing them to start a new one at 30. Unless they do not want it.

Some concepts don't work well for lower lvl's at the start.

The book of exhausted deeds suggests letting a player pick up a character from a higher lvl if their character martyrs them self.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

People hardly find leveling as the experience to make anything unique or particularly pertinent to their character's development. It's often the off-time in between, and thereafter. Ask those of us who don't only play one main.

This.

VKB wrote:

If more DMs would run impromptu events and small-scale plots while people hunted, it would give us a good reason to roleplay more often away from the hubs, not to mention allow low-level characters to feel useful and develop as individuals. That's the solution, not increasing EXP gain or whatever. Instead of more local plots where newer, less experienced characters have a chance to influence events, it's turned into a goddamn DC grab where the only chance for lowbies to get DCs is to get their asses kicked by level 30+ monsters and not have any bearing whatsoever on the plot, while the regulars (frankly, myself included) get to hog the spotlight. I've said this a dozen times before and I'm getting tired of repeating myself every time this comes up.

And that's all I have to say about this.

Yeah, I think this post has a good point. That would mean the problem is how much we focus on "expert level" plots.

My own personal view is this, if you want the tl;dr and just want to skip to the point, see the underlined portion: If a crucial process is boring, then it needs to be fixed, no argument. Yes, grinding is easy. Yes, it can be finished in a single weekend. But "fun" it is not, and it certainly isn't intuitive or really conducive to your character's growth to run between groups of mobs to circlegrind your way to a new ability. However, I wouldn't change the XP rates, and I certainly wouldn't insist we keep this system static and "as is" with the current environment we're dealing with in NWN as a whole. So this leads me to my suggestions: The first one is fairly easy: Dungeon completion bonuses that are only given once in a character's life time, to encourage people to tackle new challenges and go elsewhere. This would have to be a considerable amount of XP so that people didn't have to backtrack too many times, because this would just remove the suspension of disbelief and remove from the RP experience as a whole. Yes, mechanical experiences do have a profound effect on RP, make no mistake. The big thing with this dungeon reward system is that new dungeons could be legitimately challenging and tricky, making them have a larger impact on the PC. They would be longer, more rewarding, and it would remove some monotony from the experience as a whole. My second suggestion is probably nothing more than a pipe dream, but I'd basically say that PCs should be able to do things to get a temporary, small percentage bonus to XP gain by doing things in events, RP, and the game world in general. If we want to go by the "just roleplay, it's a roleplaying server" argument, then we need to do something to make roleplay have more impact on how you progress. DCs are one way as is, but I've met quite a few people who are reluctant to burn them. As well, these are more a currency to see you rewarded new items that may or may not have a mechanical benefit.

Bertnard wrote:

That would be more fun

Oh sure, and then we can turn the server into a cooking simulator, because that's what I think is fun, and my way of having fun is objectively superior. I mean, as long as it's my opinions being prioritized then everything is peachy, right?

Blech. Sorry. I shouldn't really go off on you, but we're just waving our subjective feelings on the leveling experience around here. What riles me up is that some of us are saying "we don't enjoy this aspect of the server" and then a bunch of other people are saying "well your opinion is inferior, contributes to the moral decay of the server, and we should in fact change things so you like them even less".

Alaria- wrote:

Increasing experience gain by 5 to 10 times (as the topic suggests) is by no means a 'slight to mild' XP increase, but I can see your point! What did you have in mind to counter that proposal?

That's why I said slight to mild, not 5 times. I'm more in line with richard. 5-10%ish?

Larsaan wrote:

Alaria- wrote:

Just pay the DCs for it.

"What do you mean you're poor? Just get a job." "What do you mean you can't get a date? Just be yourself." "What do you mean you're depressed? Just think positively." This is not a solution.

yeah

Larsaan wrote:

Alaria- wrote:

We have already seen examples where people make new (evil) characters, level them up, wreak havoc and then just discard the characters.

There's a reason for that, you know. Villains have to be disposable by necessity. They're already at a higher risk of being permakilled or generally screwed over, and people start complaining if they stick around anyway. Amians don't like troublemakers and try to chase them off both ICly and OOCly with worrying frequency, so obviously someone who knowingly makes an evil character is going to avoid getting attached.

A small part of the debate, in my eyes. Small, but there. I still get attached to my evils, though.

Alaria- wrote:

They will, but it boils down to effort. I will not support an initiative where minimalistic effort is required to get new, fresh characters to the top levels unless they spent DCs for it. (Which in turn was a reward for roleplaying). We have already seen examples where people make new (evil) characters, level them up, wreak havoc and then just discard the characters. What the topic suggests only makes such behaviour easier and I don't want to support it out of principle.

I am of course biased since starting here I have only had two characters.

Part of the argument is about redirecting effort toward RP. Nobody is trying to get an easy ride to the top, because getting to 30 is just a very, very small part of that. The idea, as I understand it, is just to lessen the pain of a boring grind, and that's it.

DukeDublin wrote:

treasured memories wrote:

I guess what I don't really understand is, who would this hurt? This being a slight to mild xp increase.

Why else? Let some player skip levels you have to let all of them do such. That means the early content (which there is a lot of developed opposed to end game) becomes chaff. The server started with low level start in mind, and was built from the ground up on the principle. It would take too much development time to

I didn't suggest to let anyone skip levels? I'd be opposed to that even. Early grind is actually the most bearable. There's more quests and it's easier to find groups. My biggest beef is with end game grind. It's not all that easy for some builds to solo, and finding a group can be rough.

DukeDublin wrote:

treasured memories wrote:

Also, can xp penalties be tossed? Those don't make much sense to me. That is to say, why can a fighter/rogue get a xp penalty and a fighter/assassin not? It seems purely mechanical and to carry no RP value. But maybe I'm wrong.

A relic of the engine I think, and D&D. In a campaign setting, start to an end this mattered greatly as it rewarded those who forsook the fun goodies of mixing other classes. It would have been complicated to give an xp bonus to everyone except outlyers, so they gave penalties to the complex group, making it easier on less knowledgable or new players to work with. Negative reinforcement once again proving to be a poor method of behaviour manipulation.

just to keep the idea alive

Bertnard wrote:

It's always the same. You get so much help, so many boosts, the server is SUPER EASY to play, but you want it easier.

Why don't we make the server harder to play on instead? That would be more fun, if there actually would be a challenge.

disagree!

In my opinion, level isn't why our players are attached to their characters.

Here's why I think this:

Apart from the many events and RP that give a veteran character a reputation, they also are going to have accumulated and spent several DC's on "the next level" or what you probably call "what do I do at level 30?"

Once you play that game, any time you reroll you lose DC's as well as reputation, and finally, as well as XP. I'm not convinced that changing the XP system alone will change the dynamic we see on amia.

treasured memories wrote:

Bertnard wrote:

It's always the same. You get so much help, so many boosts, the server is SUPER EASY to play, but you want it easier.

Why don't we make the server harder to play on instead? That would be more fun, if there actually would be a challenge.

disagree!

Disagree all you want. Do a little homework and check similiar topics to this one for last two years. You'll find out that people do indeed keep on crying to have the game easier and easier. And the saddest part is that the staff is often too chicken to be strict because they fear they MAY loose the handful of those who keep on crying. Unfortunately, the contrary is true and the server already lost quite a few great players who rather left to join more challanging servers where the players are not in a constant whine mood.

The community makes me sad because of topics and opinions like this one. I am often an optimist, but I am loosing hope rapidly.

Guardian wrote:

treasured memories wrote:

Bertnard wrote:

It's always the same. You get so much help, so many boosts, the server is SUPER EASY to play, but you want it easier.

Why don't we make the server harder to play on instead? That would be more fun, if there actually would be a challenge.

disagree!

Disagree all you want. Do a little homework and check similiar topics to this one for last two years. You'll find out that people do indeed keep on crying to have the game easier and easier. And the saddest part is that the staff is often too chicken to be strict because they fear they MAY loose the handful of those who keep on crying. Unfortunately, the contrary is true and the server already lost quite a few great players who rather left to join more challanging servers where the players are not in a constant whine mood.

The community makes me sad because of topics and opinions like this one. I am optimist, but I am loosing hope rapidly.

Because it's easier to cry about everything being too hard than to try and get better.

Guardian wrote:

The community makes me sad because of topics and opinions like this one. I am optimist, but I am loosing hope rapidly.

for making the grind a little less painful and tedious? I guess I'll never understand the strong resistance to such.

Making it less painful doesn't mean it has to be made -easier-, perse. Just less shitty. Where's that replacement for illithids anyway?

Bertnard wrote:

Because it's easier to cry about everything being too hard than to try and get better.

I think that's a poor and insulting generalization about people who want better xp rates.

Keep the belittling, inflammatory comments to a bare minimum, people.

Guardian & Bertnard wrote:

Stuff.

This isn't Dark Souls, this isn't a Platinum Game, we are not proving proving our girth in the Olympic Dick Waving. This is spending endless hours killing the same things over and over again. You are not a better person for grinding. At most, you're more resistant to boredom.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Making it less painful doesn't mean it has to be made -easier-, perse. Just less shitty. Where's that replacement for illithids anyway?

They're on their way. Sadly, there are more chiefs than indians.

Let me put it this way, I work, I have a wife, a house a family... my time online is thin at most I guess like many others. The RP is king, it's great to interact rather than mouse click monster BUT RP doesn't happen all the time so the choices are 1) wait round but run the risk of finding no one or finding someone but having to leave as my time is up! 2) log off and do something else away from the server. 3) improve my character level by running a dungeon... which is boring when it's the same one over and over!

I don't have the time to 'grind' but I also rather enjoy exploring and running dungeons when I can't find anyone to RP with, seriously there are only so many times I can go bug Rosary in the Dale with minor character points or made up issues! lol

Y'know we could maybe solve this with roleplaying exp, but people don't like the idea that your swordfighting gets better due to an extensive practice of conversation (nevermind that said conversation could easily include an education on the finer points of swinging swords). Level 30s who have mastered the art of murder through extensive practice of apple-juicing, they're okay though.

walnutboy wrote:

Let me put it this way, I work, I have a wife, a house a family...

Ahahaha. Bertnard owes me a beer. I was waiting for this excuse to appear. If it was sooner it could have been two beers, but what you gonna do.

Yes, wal. Every single person who is NOT with the idea of having exp. for nothing and do not mind the grind that much is:

1, Virgin
2, Lives with parents
3, Have no work

Which is why all cool people are low levels and all 30s are lifeless nerds.

:lol:

serbiris wrote:

Y'know we could maybe solve this with roleplaying exp, but people don't like the idea that your swordfighting gets better due to an extensive practice of conversation (nevermind that said conversation could easily include an education on the finer points of swinging swords). Level 30s who have mastered the art of murder through extensive practice of apple-juicing, they're okay though.

Yes, this idea was about on various occasions, and I think it's way better than juice pressing myself. Abusable, indeed, but what is 8 hours of apple picking and juice pressing if not an abuse of a job system.

You might instead consider that there's something wrong with the way leveling works in Amia when people find AFKing next to resource nodes less tedious than actual adventuring.

Edit: Also...

Guardian wrote:

walnutboy wrote:

Let me put it this way, I work, I have a wife, a house a family...

Ahahaha. Bertnard owes me a beer. I was waiting for this excuse to appear. If it was sooner it could have been two beers, but what you gonna do.

Yes, wal. Every single person who is NOT with the idea of having exp. for nothing and do not mind the grind that much is:

1, Virgin
2, Lives with parents
3, Have no work

Which is why all cool people are low levels and all 30s are lifeless nerds.

:lol:

Way to put words in someone's mouth in the most condescending and smug way possible.

Larsaan wrote:

You might instead consider that there's something wrong with the way leveling works in Amia when people find AFKing next to resource nodes less tedious than actual adventuring.

You ask good questions, but support horrible solutions.

Just because some people are bored and rather two click every now and then for instant xp whilst watching youtube you do not make a server-wide change that is a massive exp. rate boost.

Besides, what is so magical about level 30? I really, really don't get it. Eddie, one of my very first characters hit level 30 few days ago. I was stuck on level 28 for ages. I've been through many, many DM events on much lower levels than others and not for one second I had a feeling it ruins my fun in anyway. And as far as I can tell, others did not feel it either.

And what do you expect will happen on level 30? I can tell you what - I bet my last dime that the moment you hit 30 and be on the said level for some time, you'll get bored. And you'll try to grind for epic loot - however, the fact you did not spent the time with your character with the "mindless" grinds of various creatures, and therefore practice the lows / highs of your build you'll probably fail. And we may very soon expect threads like "Make epic loot easier to gain" because you "proper RP'ers" can't be bothered to grind for epic loot, right? Or "make death penalties less harsh" because you'll get eaten by the Beast every now and then.

It's the very same thing in principle. If you ask for lowering xp's because you can't be bothered to invest the time into your character progression through adventuring, which is essencially the point of almost every DnD (it's calle Dungeons and Dragons for a reason, you know), then what stops you to request later an easier access to Epic loot which is accessible ONLY via. grinding?

And one more thing. Quite possibly every each one of you came to DnD gaming through paper DnD. Tell me what is paper DnD about? It's about adventuring - always. The fact the Neverwinter Nights game is limited in the way that you cannot have unlimited number of random dungeons that is produced by an imagination during paper session is obvious. So we will solve it by giving the most valuable "reward" there is, and should be also the hardest to obtain, the experience points, for free? Have you ever witnessed a paper session where players would just sit around and talk about weather and what hairstyle is currently "in" and through that progress in combat prowness or spellcasting abilities?

The answer is no.

Larsaan wrote:

Way to put words in someone's mouth in the most condescending and smug way possible.

Sorry, heard that sad excuse so many times there is just no other way to answer it anymore.

Last edited by walnutboy on Mon, Dec 07 2015, 19:50 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Guardian wrote:

walnutboy wrote:

Let me put it this way, I work, I have a wife, a house a family...

Ahahaha. Bertnard owes me a beer. I was waiting for this excuse to appear. If it was sooner it could have been two beers, but what you gonna do.

Yes, wal. Every single person who is NOT with the idea of having exp. for nothing and do not mind the grind that much is:

1, Virgin
2, Lives with parents
3, Have no work

Which is why all cool people are low levels and all 30s are lifeless nerds.

:lol:

serbiris wrote:

Y'know we could maybe solve this with roleplaying exp, but people don't like the idea that your swordfighting gets better due to an extensive practice of conversation (nevermind that said conversation could easily include an education on the finer points of swinging swords). Level 30s who have mastered the art of murder through extensive practice of apple-juicing, they're okay though.

Yes, this idea was about on various occasions, and I think it's way better than juice pressing myself. Abusable, indeed, but what is 8 hours of apple picking and juice pressing if not an abuse of a job system.

I'm sorry, i thought this was a mature RP server... i must be mistaken!

I started playing this game when i was, a) a virgin, b) living at home and c) ... didn't actually have a job, your point?

I don't mind the grind, what i do mind is the repeat and repeat and repeat over and over just to feel like a character is gaining some physical ground. The near death experience for what, a bag of gold the odd crystal or weapons everyone just seems to sell and not use? It's all well and good saying 'you can RP it' but mechanically when you get called on it your OOCly left embarrassed and ICly shafted!

**EDIT**

I came to this game when a friend bought it and suggested i do the same. He was a big DnD fan and with his friends we had a group and weekly meets... out of all of them i am the last one still playing and guess what, never played DnD paper game in my life! :mrgreen:

I doubt that we should make any change to be honest. The the most recent change regarding the 1/DC per pre-epic levels makes things super easy.

Let's not derail this topic and devolve into calling people no-lived basement dwellers. Literally no one here has a right to call anyone a 'lifeless nerd' when we all play and RP on this ten year old game. Get back on topic or we're going to lock it and let people cool off.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

Let's not derail this topic and devolve into calling people no-lived basement dwellers. Literally no one here has a right to call anyone a 'lifeless nerd' when we all play and RP on this ten year old game. Get back on topic or we're going to lock it and let people cool off.

Good point actually *looks around* think we may have all been there are some point!

walnutboy wrote:

your point?

My point is that saying you have a wife, kids, work and house and use it as an excuse why you cannot progress your character is cheap and sad.

Believe it or not, we all have wives, jobs, kids and houses. We just do not use it in an argument. Because it may look like you are suggesting that all people who actually have a progress in game are, as mentioned, lifeless basement nerds, hence my pointer in the previous post (for some reason I think some people did not get it. I must have troubles with mr. english).

Guardian wrote:

Larsaan wrote:

You might instead consider that there's something wrong with the way leveling works in Amia when people find AFKing next to resource nodes less tedious than actual adventuring.

You ask good questions, but support horrible solutions.

Just because some people are bored and rather two click every now and then for instant xp whilst watching youtube you do not make a server-wide change that is a massive exp. rate boost.

Sez you. Tweaking the numbers can have a huge impact on the sense of progression. For one, it determines how long you have to stay in one place and do the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. Lower XP rates lead to more tedium as you have to put in more work to get the same result. Higher XP rates lead to less tedium, and if you think that's horrible then your idea of what constitutes "fun" is very different from mine.

Guardian wrote:

Besides, what is so magical about level 30? I really, really don't get it.

If you don't get it, then don't be so quick to laugh in people's face about it. Jerk.

Guardian wrote:

Eddie, one of my very first characters hit level 30 few days ago. I was stuck on level 28 for ages. I've been through many, many DM events on much lower levels than others and not for one second I had a feeling it ruins my fun in anyway. And as far as I can tell, others did not feel it either.

No one here has claimed that you can't have any satisfying RP on low-level characters. Sure I've been in events where my character's low level wasn't a hindrance. There's even been characters where I've slowed down my leveling so the character's roleplay would match the changes that the levels would bring (such as putting off the wing-sprouting level on a DD). The thing is, that was my choice in roleplay. I don't have the choice of going in the opposite direction. There were times during the Arcanum War where I hated that Aven wasn't at high level yet, because I had ideas for how she could contribute to the war, but was completely out of range of the epic powerlevel that the events were at. By the time she hit 30 the war was more or less over, and those roleplaying opportunities had passed.

Guardian wrote:

And what do you expect will happen on level 30? I can tell you what - I bet my last dime that the moment you hit 30 and be on the said level for some time, you'll get bored. And you'll try to grind for epic loot - however, the fact you did not spent the time with your character with the "mindless" grinds of various creatures, and therefore practice the lows / highs of your build you'll probably fail. And we may very soon expect threads like "Make epic loot easier to gain" because you "proper RP'ers" can't be bothered to grind for epic loot, right? Or "make death penalties less harsh" because you'll get eaten by the Beast every now and then.

This is basically just a series of baseless assumptions and slippery slope hand-wringing.

Guardian wrote:

It's the very same thing in principle. If you ask for lowering xp's because you can't be bothered to invest the time into your character progression through adventuring, which is essencially the point of almost every DnD (it's calle Dungeons and Dragons for a reason, you know), then what stops you to request later an easier access to Epic loot which is accessible ONLY via. grinding?

You mean like people are doing right now? I'm sorry to tell you this, but requesting epic items or better-than-epic items has been a thing for a while now.

Guardian wrote:

And one more thing. Quite possibly every each one of you came to DnD gaming through paper DnD.

No I didn't. Other way around, actually.

Guardian wrote:

Tell me what is paper DnD about? It's about adventuring - always. The fact the Neverwinter Nights game is limited in the way that you cannot have unlimited number of random dungeons that is produced by an imagination during paper session is obvious. So we will solve it by giving the most valuable "reward" there is, and should be also the hardest to obtain, the experience points, for free? Have you ever witnessed a paper session where players would just sit around and talk about weather and what hairstyle is currently "in" and through that progress in combat prowness or spellcasting abilities?

The answer is no.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here. Persistent world servers and pen and paper sessions are so obviously different that you can't use the same adventuring philosophies for both, it won't work. For one, there's no level cap in a P&P game, and the DM will make sure that both combat and character progression happens at a reasonable pace. A P&P game would never feature the party killing 500 standardized fire giants for four hours.

And what sort of D&D campaigns have you been in where experience was the "most valuable reward"?

Guardian wrote:

Larsaan wrote:

Way to put words in someone's mouth in the most condescending and smug way possible.

Sorry, heard that sad excuse so many times there is just no other way to answer it anymore.

You didn't answer it, you strawmanned it.

Guardian wrote:

walnutboy wrote:

your point?

My point is that saying you have a wife, kids, work and house and use it as an excuse why you cannot progress your character is cheap and sad.

Believe it or not, we all have wives, jobs, kids and houses. We just do not use it in an argument. Because it may look like you are suggesting that all people who actually have a progress in game are, as mentioned, lifeless basement nerds, hence my pointer in the previous post (for some reason I think some people did not get it. I must have troubles with mr. english).

At the risk of derailing anything i will reply here, i never use my family as an excuse. I was pointing out that that it isn't always possible to sit and grind for levels in a week for most people, certainly isn't an option for me! Didn't use it as an argument either, it was more colour or flavour to the text as to why some might or simply can't do the rinse and repeat level grinding experience.

Lifeless basement nerds wasn't my line and i somewhat resent that it is applied to me or my post. My english is fine enough, i pass most tests with it and even manage to sound somewhat convincing when i RP! heh... not bad for my first and only language! :mrgreen:

Experience Rates and Time Efficiency

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