AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Class Alterations: Dragon Disciple Changes and Warlock.

So...who do we ask about 'official' Warlock lore on Amia, or is it open? From my experience, base D&D lore about warlocks has either needed to be heavily extrapolated or has little to go on, and what little there is can be...contradictory. For example in 3.5, which we're playing in, supposedly they're pact-bound (from level one, as opposed to Blackguard's level 6+, natch) to demons...or something? But they can be CG? Is it even a pact, or is it like Sorcery from a different source? What even is the eldritch blast?

I don't really have any problem with the DD changes, especially since I'm very, legitimately glad to know it didn't put as much strain on the devs as a more in-depth alteration would have. I will ask, however, whether players can special-request caster level upgrades to sorcerer/DDs or whether we'll have to wait until that gets a more thorough splice like with a few other changes in the works.

To my understanding, it's the same as the general 3.5 lore for Warlocks. As opposed to 4th and 5th edition, where they can choose themselves to pact to a higher entity, in 3.5 they 'inherit' the pact from generations past. They don't have a choice, and they are born with these 'innate' talents, that are 'spell-like abilities' but not actual spell casting, and as such, they do not really benefit from most things that normal spell-casters would. Dusty can probably comment more on that. Here's a good source to read up on:

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/warlock/index.html

Excellent... All the better to troll Guardian/Holy Avenger with RDD builds and endless pvp now >:)

These changes are cool.

I like the idea of warlocks. If I ever decide to write a request for one and it gets granted, might make me play more. Seems pretty neat.

warlock 20 rdd 10 would be sick

A general write-up of what exactly a Warlock is in Amian lore would be very helpful in people determining if they want to request a Warlock. I realize it's probably coming soon with the DD change scripts, but earlier if possible couldn't hurt.

There's a lot of nuance and mindful explanation that has to go into describing how their "innate" magical abilities are different from a Sorcerer's. Fiendish bloodlines can make either, and under some systems *cough*Pathfinder*cough* Sorecers can come from pacts or ominous dealings as well. Honestly, I always saw 3.5 Ed Warlock as just a "do-over" of what Sorcerer could have been if Cook, Tweet, and Williams realized how poorly Vancian magic fit the idea back in 3.0. I still find the class as it is very interesting on its own, though. I see Warlock as to Blackguard as what Sorcerer is to Dragon Disciple: exploring a power source, but focusing on one particular aspect rather than another.

SamTheGiantSlayer wrote:

To my understanding, it's the same as the general 3.5 lore for Warlocks. As opposed to 4th and 5th edition, where they can choose themselves to pact to a higher entity, in 3.5 they 'inherit' the pact from generations past. They don't have a choice, and they are born with these 'innate' talents, that are 'spell-like abilities' but not actual spell casting, and as such, they do not really benefit from most things that normal spell-casters would.

Complete Arcane kind of goes back and forth in some places. The whole intro blurb for them essentially describes them as some sort of specialty sorcerer in that their power is completely innate, but then later on pg. 164 it mentions people knowing that they derive their power from patrons. Under Background is says Warlocks are "born, not made" but then two sentences later says some people become a Warlock by seeking out the "dark powers" that make you into one. It ultimately says "the exact nature of a warlock's origin is up to the player to decide." So if we want them to be only through innate bloodlines, or only through pacts, we've got to differentiate our idea from the weirdly and sometimes poorly explained original one.

Mkay, we can work on an entry of lore for Amia's Warlock. For the sake of dismissing confusion.

Last edited by The1Kobra on Wed, Oct 05 2016, 3:41 AM, edited 2 times in total.

I know on Arelith the lore is that warlocks always have to enter such pacts knowingly and willingly, though this has the definite side effect of making any warlock come with IC stigmas, especially those pacted to the lower planes. Of course, if the abilities aren't granted knowingly that does lessen the stigma to a degree, though I imagine some characters would still be spooked by someone drawing power from the lower planes. (Or just being spooky in general!).

If I recall from NWN2, warlocks have to be either chaotic (fey pacted) or evil (lower planes pacted). So there is some factor in that. I don't know what the PnP rules are though.

If bard is used as a base though that makes lawful warlocks unplayable conventionally. Will lawful warlocks be allowed? With multiclass combinations as well? (Like a Warlock/monk)

Chaotic only like PnP. We will have to bump the alignment after leveling to reflect it properly. It isn't a perfect solution but bard is still the best fit.

Warlocks can be Any Chaotic or Any Evil.

Pacts can come from a billion sources and artificially limiting them is needless. "Sins of the Father" should be a viable archetype.

My opinions.

Tormak is right about the alignment!

Forgot the any Evil!

Edit: my mistake, looking at the wrong thing. xD

If people are using bard as a base, though, they won't be able to be LE like what would be possible in PnP unless they're leto'd.

Kobra's question regarding would-be illegal multi class still stands as far as Monk is concerned.

oh yeah monk bard rdd would be possible now.

sick.

Another question, not that it applies to me or anyone I know:

For those who have in the past applied for a tail or legs when they reached the 18 RDD threshold: are refunds optional?

Probably not a huge thing in any case but I know that depending on what the update is they actually do refund stuff occasionally.

Commie wrote:

oh yeah monk bard rdd would be possible now.

sick.

You would need to request a warlock first, so I think that's fair. I support this, amia needs more cool shit.

I am afraid refunds are not an option just as they are not when prices are reduced.

You can pick another trait of the list, unless you already have them all already then well you had them before anyone else did. legs aren't charged anyways.

I guess if you really have and have already paid any optional now free pick and have the 18 DD levels we can see if there us some other trait that could be given if it is fitting to the dragon type and such like a visualizer or such!

I remember i paid 50 DC for Ry's wings and 25 DC for her tail.

Whoa, how did you even manage to save 50 DC's lol o-o

I end up spending mine on dumb stuff too quickly (i.e. leveling) lol.

Commie wrote:

oh yeah monk bard rdd would be possible now.

sick.

for the sake of simplicity i'd still not allow this, personally.

MisterLich wrote:

I end up spending mine on dumb stuff too quickly (i.e. leveling) lol.

The struggle is real

Guardian wrote:

Quote:

18 : 1 AC, 100% immunity to element, +2 Con, +2 Cha, 32 SR

Maybe it's just me, but this seems pretty brutal (meaning OP a bit).

Apart from that, love it. Especially the Warlock class.

Given the generic feat selection, medium AB growth, lack of useable skills, this doesn't make you "OP" at all. It's very much like the Bard/RDD/PM combo. You are very good at dying slowly. These are welcome changes, and will root RDD as a very "tanky" class, as it is currently only used as one of the worst Melee builds in the game. Good work guys.

The1Kobra wrote:

Also, does the warlock blast damage scale in epic levels?

The widget text lies!

It scales into epic.

So, just out of curiousity:
1: Do the extra RDD stats (particularly the CON and CHA) count towards the +12 cap, or are they applied as base stats?

2: I take it for warlocks they won't be able to take the improved eldritch blast feat in epic levels? (Which adds 1d6 damage for each one they take)

They've never counted toward the caps in the past, so they shouldn't do so now.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Commie wrote:

oh yeah monk bard rdd would be possible now.

sick.

You would need to request a warlock first, so I think that's fair. I support this, amia needs more cool shit.

That would be a disgusting, lorebroken mess with obvious mechanical benefits...if you are looking at it from the RP perspective. Also "Bard" is being used as the base class for warlock, and you are not in fact a bard...so..RDD should be off the table for that one. Me thinks. To clarify. Bard is being used as a Warlock due to the already existing hit die, ab growth and proficiencies (simple weapons and armor) that Warlocks have in the source. It is also a charisma based class and has similar feat progression. This is by no means, and in my opinion should be a backdoor to class combinations not previously available.

Mav can probably confirm this (or tell me I'm terribly wrong), but stat increases are not counted towards the cap as far as I know.

And I agree with Tormak here, there won't be any "monk/rdd/bards", since bard is only used for emulation purposes and the song feat is going to be disabled for these pcs anyway.

I wasn't trying to snipe you either Commie (sorry bro, totally looked like it), I just fear the day I see Pally, RDD, 2 "Warlocks" running around.

I thought I'd make a note here about the Dragon Disciple ability bonuses. I talked about this vaguely in-game once, but I wasn't on a character with whom I could test it. And I haven't been able to get +14 CON on the one where I can. xD

I'm more than happy to help test the Dragon Disciple bonus to see if it's being treated toward the cap, but I need DM help as I don't have access to a bunch of CON items with my high-DD character.

Anyway, the way it looks in-game is that the changes past DD 10 do count toward the +12 cap, since completely naked my 16 Dragon Disciple has green CON, like it's been buffed. The other bonuses from Dragon Disciple (Con/Int/Cha) prior to DD 11 have never done that, and it won't show up on the STR because the -2 from DD 10 is only negated on DD 12, so it doesn't read as a buff.

If a DM would like help in checking that at some point, or if someone can get to it before I can, it would be good to know if something is applying incorrectly!

Hey Jes. Talked with another player who went moar DD. It appears that all the stat bonuses after 14 DD appear as perma buffs and count towards the +12 cap.

I am looking into this. This might be the limitations of the script. I got some ideas though.

Just as a suggestion, I'm pretty sure you can remove or add base stats via Chat Commands. If I understand correctly, this would basically mean it could be fixed by a DM. So if it is limited, you could just remove the bonuses you get now and have them applied via DM, just like dragon color and the free wings/legs/horns/tail.

I rather not do that. Creating more work for the team and holding players characters back waiting for DMs is never a good way to go.

I have a solution but it is going to take me a while to code out and implement so be patient! Thank you.

Just a quick thought I had of my own, and not sure if it's part of your own idea, Mav. Also not sure if it would really work anyways. Haha. What about the sort of auto-LETO edit that generally occurs with applying subraces? Just boots the character and then they simply log back in with the boosted stat or whatever.

The subrace system is a monster from what I understand. Sune is even scared of it.

There is a reason it hasn't been touched for years I am afraid.

I got a better solution though once I figure it out.

Can someone be/request to be a bard/warlock? I assume the exact benefits would have to be discussed with the team but I assume that would entail getting your bard song back but losing out on, for example, some of the eldritch blast progression and its more powerful widget alterations.

Overneath wrote:

Can someone be/request to be a bard/warlock? I assume the exact benefits would have to be discussed with the team but I assume that would entail getting your bard song back but losing out on, for example, some of the eldritch blast progression and its more powerful widget alterations.

Well. The issue there is that they are the same class mechanically. You get your bardsong back, but at a disproportionate level as a 15 bard/ 15 warlock would now have a 30 bard cl. The same would go for the DC's and duration on regular bard spells. I know for a fact that lasting inspiration is factored into this "build" which means 21 bard/ 9 warlock on a base race. 9 warlock would get the non epic widgets, but the DC's which are fixed would be based off your cha mod, meaning more powerful than they should be at that level. Even if this was allowed, it would be a walking exploit, as essentially you get 2 classes for the cost of one. Multiclassing further makes this worse. Say you take a spin on the typical 25/5 Bard/KC. Not the best build, but very solid. Despite your break down of warlock/bard you are now 25w/25b/5kc....mechanically.

Technically it'd work because the build you want to play would need to be submitted with the request. So you could simply say do not go pver a certaiin amount of perform. Same end result. As for feats, if you are 21bard 4warlock 5KC, you'd lastimg winspiration. If you are 16b 9warlock 5KC, thrn no winspiraton. Only problem there is that it's based on 'we trust you not to abuse this'. Well, the stacking on bard spells couldn't be fixed though, I think. So probably not going to be allowed. On the other hand, as far as I understand the lore, it'd be a bit like going Wiz/Sorc or Favored Soul/Cleric multiclass. It's just a bit weird why you'd do it.

robbi320 wrote:

Technically it'd work because the build you want to play would need to be submitted with the request. So you could simply say do not go pver a certaiin amount of perform. Same end result. As for feats, if you are 21bard 4warlock 5KC, you'd lastimg winspiration. If you are 16b 9warlock 5KC, thrn no winspiraton. Only problem there is that it's based on 'we trust you not to abuse this'. Well, the stacking on bard spells couldn't be fixed though, I think. So probably not going to be allowed. On the other hand, as far as I understand the lore, it'd be a bit like going Wiz/Sorc or Favored Soul/Cleric multiclass. It's just a bit weird why you'd do it.

The problem here is that the wigets have a fixed DC that advance with your cha mod. So your "Warlock" spell, even if you only got one widget, would improve with your charisma. It would still be proportional to a lvl 25 caster..unless you don't invest heavliy in cha...to which.. why bother taking Warlock at all?

You can't mix bard and warlock. System limitations. We can't set CL's properly.

Any word on the progress of either of these?

Alright everyone! I apologize for taking so long with this but there was a lot of issues and scripting that needed to be sorted. Here we go! Any questions?

~~~

((information on the newly supported Class))

Warlock

The Warlock base class will be emulated by Bard levels.

OverviewWarlocks are powerful individuals who harness supernatural powers; these powers are inborn or gained abilities, not spells. Whether the beneficiary of inborn talents from generations past, or the resulting power of a pact with a higher being, Warlocks stand apart from their spellcasting counterparts in many distinct ways.

Pacts with higher beings can range based upon alignment, disposition, or background. For example, a Chaotic Good Warlock may choose to pact with an Eldarin, whereas a Neutral Evil Warlock may prefer to pact with a Gelugon. (You can be creative, here! Anything considered a 'higher being' would work, ranging from Seelie/Unseelie Fey, Demons, Devils, Celestials, Slaadi, etc.)

A warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul. A warlock can use any invocation he knows at will.

RequirementsBase Class Emulation: Bard
Alignment: Any Chaotic, Any Evil

Supported Abilities

Eldritch Blast: The first ability a warlock learns is eldritch blast. A warlock attacks his foes with eldritch power, using baleful magical energy to deal damage and sometimes impart other debilitating effects.

An eldritch blast is a ray with a range of 60 feet. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, allowing no saving throw. An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level and increases in power as the warlock rises in level. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast, your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.

An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although the Spell Penetration feat and other effects that improve caster level checks to overcome spell resistance also apply to eldritch blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects. Metamagic feats cannot improve a warlock's eldritch blast (because it is a spell-like ability, not a spell). However, you may take a Custom Epic Feat (Eldritch Mastery Epic Feat) to increase the damage of all blasts by 50%.

The prerequisites of this custom epic feat are as follows:
- 16+ levels of Warlock
- 25+ Spellcraft

The eldritch blast shapes and essences are unlocked as follows:

Shapes
No Shape: Level 1
Eldritch Chain: Level 5
Eldritch Cone: Level 10
Eldritch Doom: Level 15

Essences
Eldritch Blast: Level 1
Hindering Blast: Level 3
Hellrime Blast: Level 6
Beshadowed Blast: Level 9
Brimstone Blast: Level 12
Utterdark Blast: Level 15
Vitriolic Blast: Level 18
Noxious Blast: Level 21
Detect Magic: Beginning at 2nd level, a warlock can use detect magic as the spell at will. His caster level equals his class level.
Deceive Item: At 4th level and higher, a warlock has the ability to more easily commandeer magic items made for the use of other characters. This can be emulated by the Use Magic Device skill.
Imbue Item: A warlock of 12th level or higher can use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he does not know the spells required to make an item (although he must know the appropriate item creation feat). This can be emulated by item crafting feats.

NOTE: Haste does not apply to actions per round when using the Eldritch widgets.

//Note the below can be requested on to armor, etc for emulation purposes but will still be counted towards the normal armor balance etc.

Extra Requestable Abilities

Damage Reduction: Fortified by the supernatural power flowing in his body, a warlock becomes resistant to physical attacks at 3rd level and above, gaining damage reduction 1/cold iron.

At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, a warlock's damage reduction improves as shown on the advancement table below.
Supernatural Resilience: Beginning at 8th level, a warlock knows the trick of supernatural resilience. Once per day, as a free action, he can enter a state that lasts for 2 minutes. While in this state, the warlock gains +1 regeneration per round.

At 13th level, a warlock's supernatural resilience improves. When in his fiendish resilience state, he gains fast healing +2 regeneration per round.

At 18th level, a warlock's fiendish resilience improves to +5 regeneration per round.
Energy Resistance: At 10th level and higher, a warlock has resistance 5 against any two of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic. Once the types are chosen, this energy resistance cannot be changed. At 20th level, a warlock gains resistance 10 against the two selected types of energy.

Alternative to items, you may choose to represent this with the appropriate feats.

Summary:
- No Warlock/monk or Warlock/Bard
- Spell list will not be limited (These will represent your Warlock invocations)
- The prerequisites of the 50% increase custom feat are: 16+ levels of Warlock, 25+ Spellcraft, and one useless epic feat. (The epic feat must be one of the custom feats, which do nothing unless set)
- Alignments: Any Chaotic, Any Evil

Did the problem of stats after lvl 14DD not stacking get fixed ?

Progress is being made on the DD changes. Don't worry. The process I am doing is a delicate one so I need to verify each step works before adding it server wide.

Alright. DD script is done. There will be a few days delay before we add this in so we can work out a bug.

Warlock: "Spell list will not be limited" What is meant by that? Unlimited casts of Bard spells?

It means you can use all your bard spells, but you cannot use bard song or curse song. Or any of the amia custom songs you can learn from NPC and PC.

Ah, ok. Thought unlimited Mass Haste seemed OP.

keep in mind though because the warlock blast is an item i don't think it benefits from haste

Your team would though. The Warlock maybe not so much, though other spells unlimited would be great. Let's say perma Animal Buffs. Would be "pretty powerful".

Unlimited? It is the normal amount of casts for a bard. And of course, not able to extend.

Commie wrote:

keep in mind though because the warlock blast is an item i don't think it benefits from haste

That is correct.

Class Alterations: Dragon Disciple Changes and Warlock.

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