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Now, I was under the impression that Faerun, and Forgotten Realms, and the people within it, are very racist. Dwarves have certain races they are prejudice against, elves, humans, every race does. Especially drow, surfacers are terrified of them, and despise them. If they saw one on the surface, the normal reaction would be to run in fear, or attack them. I can understand this being a bit relaxed on Amia, but its getting to the point where its just rediculous.

MOST of the time, drow are huggled and cuddled on the surface, provided they are not Lolthite. Also, many seem to DEFEND the drow, and other widely hated races. I know its up to the player how to RP their character, but it seems a bit overkill, with the lack of racism on Amia. I know racism is prevalent, but to a very lesser extent than what it should be in my opinion. As always, leave your RUDE comments and bashing at the door. The purpose of this is to discuss the topic at hand.

Flamebait!

That said. It's Amia, and even ICly it does make sense for racials to be given alot more lenience. Most come to Amia for the sole purpose of /escaping/ prejudice due to their race, as Amia really is an isle for outcasts. Drow specifically - the Eilistraeens aren't just a myth that most surfacers hear about on the mainland, that are secretive and invisible, but on Amia they're a tangible and visible entity that again skews the public perception.

Yes, standard FR means that drow would be recieved much more harshly, but IC stuff on Amia does more than justify the 'lenience' and acceptance given to them due to the setting, and the actions of other players and characters.

I understand leniance, but this is a bit more than leniance. This isn't the land of huggle all drow who come to the surface. I think the racism should be on a lesser scale, but it should still be there, more than it is.

Well before all the rude ones leave their comments I hope to get in there first.

You do actually have a point that I have noticed as well. A lot of the racial stereotypes that I would expect to see between certain factions just isnt there.

But I do wonder if this is becuase there is a genearl shift to players wanting to actually have more contact with other pc's insttead of open or hostile contact.

I have a good feeling this will become a flame thread/locked sometime soon, but I hope not as this is something should be discussed.

anyways, yes, most people are racist and prejudice to some degree in the forgotten realms world. Humans for instance may not like someone because they are commoners if said human was a noble, or not like elves or other non humans for not being humans. Elves and drow hating each other is not the only type of racism in the FR world. There is also say hatered towards red wizzys, duegar, full blooded orcs, wizards and other arcane classes in amn.

I do wish that amia was more like cannon lore, which means that the races would hate each other for a varity of reasons. but i am not sure if that will be happening, it has in some areas like winya but alot of areas still think of the idea as racism=wrong and not good for the FR world.

Yes, I see alot of the racism = wrong thing. How often do you see that in FR? Mostly everyone is racist towards something.

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

I understand leniance, but this is a bit more than leniance. This isn't the land of huggle all drow who come to the surface. I think the racism should be on a lesser scale, but it should still be there, more than it is.

Not really. When most drow are harmless or rather, lucid towards surfacers as far as what surfacers can see, and even moreso when they're seen (consistently) doing good alongside the Evil Aasimar and Necromantic Elves, they suddenly become far more acceptable and commonplace in the minds of many as the lines become blurred.

Granted, to me, this all comes down to "IC is IC."

WonWon wrote:

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

I understand leniance, but this is a bit more than leniance. This isn't the land of huggle all drow who come to the surface. I think the racism should be on a lesser scale, but it should still be there, more than it is.

Not really. When most drow are harmless or rather, lucid towards surfacers as far as what surfacers can see, and even moreso when they're seen (consistently) doing good alongside the Evil Aasimar and Necromantic Elves, they suddenly become far more acceptable and commonplace in the minds of many as the lines become blurred.

Granted, to me, this all comes down to "IC is IC."

True, but I see people who aren't even suspicious of drow the first time they meet. But I do agree with you, IC is IC, and its up to the players how to react to certain situations and other players. I'd just like to see things a bit more closer to the lore.

Its a fair point I know from Belladonna's IC point of view she is always suspicious of -any- Drow that she meets first off even those openly sporting there... shall we say peaceful credentials.

But at the same time she has a kind soul, so more often than not will not openly provoke a situation unless she is pushed. And most of the surface drow players are actually very good for not portraying themselves as hostile, so it leads to a kind of IC loop here.

The Lore would actually be against you in this regard. Have a look at Cordor, even - The captain of their militia is not only a drow, but one who is by reputation and presence alone respected within the city by the commonplace. The same can be said for previous councilmembers within Cordor.

Even Winya Ravana had a drow sub-leader for a while, and that's the elven city of all things. The Drow are seen, largely, as little more than 'ordinary' people by the sheer majority. The whole 'They are an evil race' argument sadly falls through when they actively make strides to do 'good' and when the so-called 'good' races are off eating babies, torturing children and stealing housewives as to lock them in secluded, dragonguarded temples.

Racial Prejudice does exist, and I still see it, but ultimately even the lack thereof is mroe than justified from a 'lore' perspective as far as Amia is concerned.

looking at if at face value, for example, Cordor (being a city of "tolerance") tries to curb the idea of racism in the city, but i've seen more often then not that when in the field there is lots of racism. Of course i understand your standpoint and have seen my sister play more than one event where racism might have been a good RP issue, but was never brought up. It's really up to the players and how they want to play it, but it would be easy to get out of hand IC and OOC so its probably avoided to keep from making players mad... just my thoughts on the subject.

Spreading the bad word of Drow on the surface is something my other characters practice on a regular basis, and make sure other people know it.

Remind them of the races natural nature, call them liars when they say they are good, don't let your character turn their back to them, and remind others to watch their backs when they are around.

The more people that hate Drow, the better, in my books. Anyone who's had the misfortune of finding themselves in Ultrinnan is made sure, at least by me, to have a reason to hate them more.

Making a scene IC can help move people toward doing the same, that's what I try to do, it might not help, but I can dream

Halflings, due to their reliance on most other races and general respect for each type's individual 'gifts', makes them the most tolerant race ever. But on Amia, things are seriously messed up (and not necessarily in a negative way).

The hin are considered very racists, and the drow are EVERYWHERE!

The general negativity about the drow across Faerun is mostly due to their nature, but also because they're so blooming elusive. Seeing a drow is like finding the end of a rainbow in most settlements.

But on Amia they are a common sight. The evil ones, the lovely ones, as well as the frankly weird ones. This leads to more racial awareness and less need for racial harshness overall in the land and surrounding isles.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I disagree with the anti-racism, lore based argument because it ignores the incredible difficulty of escaping from a cultural discourse. An example of this in reality is when the English arrived in Australia and tried to paint gum trees and draw the Platypus... the paintings and drawings are so odd because the cultural lense through which they viewed the two resulted in the trees being some odd mix of oak and gums, the platypus was largely drawn like some sort of freakish duck.

Very hard to escape your culture, truly.

Last edited by Zante on Fri, Jan 23 2009, 18:58 PM, edited 3 times in total.

The statement that most drow are evil does not apply to amia. The fact is that at least half of amia's drow population are good surface dwellers, which is a provable fact. Even the evil drow aren't actually all that evil, there is no special reason to fear them over evil humans/elves etc. Drow aren't stronger or more dangerous than a random adventurer you may meet, on the main land a drow raiding party would be a nightmare for anyone, on amia, there are much worse things out there.

Amian drow just aren't a real threat or menace, just one of several evil factions on the server, who actually stick to themselves more than others. At least for me banites have been a far bigger nuisance, as an example.

This is simply how things on amia are, and an moderately intelligent and observant character would not need much to realize this. A character that keeps insisting that all drow are evil is objectively wrong, so it makes sense that he would be called out on it and be called ignorant.

Not that I got a problem with people hating drow, but when they do, they are icly being ignorant and biggoted, which my characters will call them out on.

Basically... feel free to play characters that hate drow, but when others come to their defense don't complain, as your character is wrong.

Wyjyn wrote:

I disagree with the anti-racism, lore based argument because it ignores the incredible difficulty of escaping from a cultural discourse. An example of this in reality is when the English arrived in Australia and tried to paint gum trees and draw the Platypus... the paintings and drawings are so odd because the cultural lense through which they viewed the two resulted in the trees being some odd mix of oak and gums, the platypus was largely drawn like some sort of freakish duck.

Very hard to escape your culture, truly.

This is true for someone either culturally closed in, on Amia, or a fresh visitor/adventurer/merchant/etc. from the mainland/underdark.

For those that have been around for a while, and those that are from such a diverse area tend to be more accepting.

Thought still, there's no reason why someone can't or shouldn't be racist, based on their upbringing, deity or horrific experiences.

Just POI: FR isnt real life, so we can leave all those examples at home.

Some people hate it, some people hang around and huggle everyone. I think its just two sides of the aisle we are always going to have. Just try and get along.

That being said, surface drow should be a platinum coin race. Think about why we have platinum coins in the first place. And think about how rare surface drow are compared to the things we -do- require a PC for.

I know it would rock the boat too much, and people would freak, but im just sayin... its not the worst idea.

Zante wrote:

Amian drow just aren't a real threat or menace, just one of several evil factions on the server, who actually stick to themselves more than others. At least for me banites have been a far bigger nuisance, as an example.

Often too many OOC complaints from coming to the surface, raiding the surface, killing surfacers, and so on, it's just frustrating and not worth dealing with the hassle half the time, or I would do it more often.

aurelius311 wrote:

That being said, surface drow should be a platinum coin race. Think about why we have platinum coins in the first place. And think about how rare surface drow are compared to the things we -do- require a PC for.

Not going to touch on everything that is wrong with this, I'll just point out that there would be no way to prevent someone starting an underdark drow who gets converted within a week or just moves to the surface which makes the whole idea moot.

Most players are victims of imposing our modern notion of "good" on Amia's fantasy universe. In our media-laden world, we're generally taught that racism is a bad (evil) thing. People playing good or at least non-evil PCs probably hesitate to be openly racist because it doesn't fit their notion of their own alignment. Whether this is a concious choice or an unconcious choice.

I have my own opinions about racism in Amia, but for me it boils down to Amia's players not being prepared for a "hardcore RP" environment that blurs lines or, alternatively, makes ugly distinctions.

Xalyth wrote:

Often too many OOC complaints from coming to the surface, raiding the surface, killing surfacers, and so on, it's just frustrating and not worth dealing with the hassle half the time, or I would do it more often.

Not that you actually could do anything Joe the evil human blackguard can't do as well...

Zante wrote:

The statement that most drow are evil does not aply to amia. The fact is that at least half of amia's drow population are good surface dwellers, which is a provable fact. Even the evil drow aren't actually all that evil, there is no special reason to fear them over evil humans/elves etc. Drow aren't stronger or more dangerous than a random adventurer you may meet, on the main land a drow raiding party would be a nightmare for anyone, on amia, there are much worse things out there.

Amian drow just aren't a real threat or menace, just one of several evil factions on the server, who actually stick to themselves more than others. At least for me banites have been a far bigger nuisance, as an example.

This is simply how things on amia are, and an moderately intelligent and observant character would not need much to realize this. A character that keeps insisting that all drow are evil is objectively wrong, so it makes sense that he would be called out on it and be called ignorant.

Not that I got a problem with people hating drow, but when they do, they are icly being ignorant and biggoted, which my characters will call them out on.

Basically... feel free to play characters that hate drow, but when others come to their defense don't complain, as your character is wrong.

Ahh and here lies the problem, over half the drow are GOOD surface dwellers. But seriously, a character hating drow does NOT make them unintelligent. One of my characters knows not ALL drow are evil, but will assume they are until proven otherwise.

As Yossarin was saying, in FR, racism isn't neccessarily viewed as a bad or evil thing.

If you want there to be more racism towards drow make an evil drow and start causing trouble instead of trying to tell people how they should rp their characters.

If you're not willing to give people a reason to hate to drow beyond "This is how it's suppose to be in Forgotten Realms" then all you can do is react how you see fit.

Guxx wrote:

If you want there to be more racism towards drow make an evil drow and start causing trouble instead of trying to tell people how they should rp their characters.

If you're not willing to give people a reason to hate to drow beyond "This is how it's suppose to be in Forgotten Realms" then all you can do is react how you see fit.

I'm not trying to tell people how to RP their characters. You are totally missing the point. I never said "this is how everyone should act" I was saying, this is how they act in FR, and it would be nice to see it like that. So stop accusing me of things I am not doing alright?

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Ahh and here lies the problem, over half the drow are GOOD surface dwellers. But seriously, a character hating drow does NOT make them unintelligent. One of my characters knows not ALL drow are evil, but will assume they are until proven otherwise.

Well, but then why would they not have the same stance to anyone they don't know? Elves and humans can be just as evil and dangerous, and they quite often are.

make this really fun DAGs. Make it a poll "Do you want less surface drow?" Not anything official, just for everyone to get a sense of where we all stand. Dont forget a boobies option, of course.

Zante wrote:

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Ahh and here lies the problem, over half the drow are GOOD surface dwellers. But seriously, a character hating drow does NOT make them unintelligent. One of my characters knows not ALL drow are evil, but will assume they are until proven otherwise.

Well, but then why would they not have the same stance to anyone they don't know? Elves and humans can be just as evil and dangerous, and they quite often are.

Why not? Sillindra is generally suspicous of anyone she meets. She just is a bit more harsh and has less patience with drow.

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Guxx wrote:

If you want there to be more racism towards drow make an evil drow and start causing trouble instead of trying to tell people how they should rp their characters.

If you're not willing to give people a reason to hate to drow beyond "This is how it's suppose to be in Forgotten Realms" then all you can do is react how you see fit.

I'm not trying to tell people how to RP their characters. You are totally missing the point. I never said "this is how everyone should act" I was saying, this is how they act in FR, and it would be nice to see it like that. So stop accusing me of things I am not doing alright?

To me your version still reads "You're all doing it wrong", and it will no matter how sweetly you try and word it.

DarkAngelGirl wrote:

Why not? Sillindra is generally suspicous of anyone she meets. She just is a bit more harsh and has less patience with drow.

I guess my point does not apply to her then.

Some characters hate of drow is downright unreasonable though.

Yossarin wrote:

Most players are victims of imposing our modern notion of "good" on Amia's fantasy universe. In our media-laden world, we're generally taught that racism is a bad (evil) thing. People playing good or at least non-evil PCs probably hesitate to be openly racist because it doesn't fit their notion of their own alignment. Whether this is a concious choice or an unconcious choice.

I have my own opinions about racism in Amia, but for me it boils down to Amia's players not being prepared for a "hardcore RP" environment that blurs lines or, alternatively, makes ugly distinctions.

I think this got lost in the hate, and thats too bad.

aurelius311 wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

Most players are victims of imposing our modern notion of "good" on Amia's fantasy universe. In our media-laden world, we're generally taught that racism is a bad (evil) thing. People playing good or at least non-evil PCs probably hesitate to be openly racist because it doesn't fit their notion of their own alignment. Whether this is a concious choice or an unconcious choice.

I have my own opinions about racism in Amia, but for me it boils down to Amia's players not being prepared for a "hardcore RP" environment that blurs lines or, alternatively, makes ugly distinctions.

I think this got lost in the hate, and thats too bad.

I think it did. This is precisely my view on it. FR is supposed to be -much- more tolerant than it's contemporary fellows on Earth, but that doesn't mean they're Politically Correct, in our modern sense.

Take, for instance, medieval Europe. If you were English, chances are, you hated -everyone-. Africans and Scandinavians were barbarians, Muslims were monsters, the French were asses (this still holds true, incidentally). You hated them all. In Faerun, though, most places get along with most other people of their race, and even most other races. This doesn't mean, however, that they love everyone else, or even that they use logic.

Let's take African Americans in place of drow, here. There have been millions of Africans who have done wonderful things. We see great Africans every day. However, there are still many people who consider them horrible, and evil, and disgusting. This even works going back to the 1700s. The black slaves could prove themselves intelligent, and civilized, and all that, and whites saw it every day. Still, though, they considered them stupid animals. It was the way of the times. This holds true the exact same way for drow. The people on Faerun don't necessarily think through "Why do I hate these people", they just do.

Carter wrote:

The people on Faerun don't necessarily think through "Why do I hate these people", they just do.

Proper FR Drow don't exist on Amia.

Quote:

Halflings, due to their reliance on most other races and general respect for each type's individual 'gifts', makes them the most tolerant race ever.

Only lightfoots are generally "tolerant" and that's because the bulk of them live as grifting gypsies, which is to say they need to exploit tallers in order to survive. Ghostwise and stronghearts are both xenophobic and ethnocentric "savages" and "rustics" respectively, who generally don't even get along with each other, especially because of their history. Most hin on Amia are stronghearts (probably due to their stat bonuses) and the Dale was founded by stronghearts I believe, so it's natural they'd be "racist". I put racist in quotation marks there however, because it seems people don't distinguish a lot of the time between bigotry and a political opinion which opposes multiculturalism and espouses traditionalism, which is what a lot of the Dale arguing is often about.

Anyway, I think the lack of racism on Amia comes down to the simple human fact that it's very hard for most people to play someone who holds views they violently disagree with, at least without simply using that person's character in an exaggerated and stereotyped manner to try to teach a lesson about how those views are bad, consciously or unconsciously. Present morality being what it is, (particularly among Amia's population of mostly liberal middle class people), people are highly offended by racism and thus will likely have a hard time approaching it in some unbiased fashion and will look for ways around it. It's naive to expect things to be otherwise in any event, and it's the same reason certain kinds of RP are forbidden outright here (not that I disagree with that).

Talon wrote:

Proper FR Drow don't exist on Amia.

That isn't the point.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Honestly, I miss the days when the Shrine was really busy with Im'kiira and Jud playing heaps. Fun times being hated so much as qirlan:D

Wyjyn wrote:

Honestly, I miss the days when the Shrine was really busy with Im'kiira and Jud playing heaps. Fun times being hated so much as qirlan:D

The Shrine isn't busy because most of the Eilistraeens nowadays seem really intent on yelling at you in tells if you don't hug their drow.>.>

Cerri. Now she's a Luskanite. If you take a moment to get to know her, she's seen alot of races/different types of people after standing around the docks singing for her supper.

She reacts to appearances, not race..simply due to her upbringing. If she sees someone in a big black cloak and a big spiky helm out in the middle of nowhere, she'll cower back in fear. if she sees a black clad drow in a similar place, same thing. Fear. Cowering.

If someone looks scary, she's gonna be scared.

Hedda hates drow, elves, and pretty much anyone else who isn't a dwarf. Quite racist.

Savita will speak with anyone if not simply to talk her way out of a gruesome death.

I see nothing wrong with reacting how your charrie would, but I've experienced the "why are you being so mean" tells that a few choice words can bring on, so I think people avoid it due to the hassle of hurt feelings. Like Yoss said, I dont think the average Amia player is comfortable with the sort of RP true FR-esque racism would bring. I don't think I am eiither, to be honest.

aurelius311 wrote:

Just POI: FR isnt real life, so we can leave all those examples at home.

i repeat.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 12:10 PM, edited 1 time in total.

On the note of my racist character... I've actually taken to sending tells apologizing either beforehand or just after he starts ripping on some one.

From what I've seen a lot of players take it better if you make the effort to show that it's not an attack on them as a player and that it's just an IC thing.

Yeah whenever my character is a total you know what to someone, I at least always send them a smiley face tell or something. Just how I am

I hate harsh feelings OOCly.

Guxx wrote:

On the note of my racist character... I've actually taken to sending tells apologizing either beforehand or just after he starts ripping on some one.

From what I've seen a lot of players take it better if you make the effort to show that it's not an attack on them as a player and that it's just an IC thing.

Yossarin wrote:

I have my own opinions about racism in Amia, but for me it boils down to Amia's players not being prepared for a "hardcore RP" environment that blurs lines or, alternatively, makes ugly distinctions.

Last edited by Yossarin on Fri, Jan 23 2009, 19:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Yup. Stole the post right out from under me. But good on you anyway, Guxx.

Quote:

The statement that most drow are evil does not aply to amia. The fact is that at least half of amia's drow population are good surface dwellers, which is a provable fact.

This here is part of the problem. Are you honestly trying to say that half of *all* drow on Amia are good surface dwellers, or half of all *player character * drow are good surface dwellers?

If the former then we should change the lore make drow alignment normally neutral, make Ultrinnian an easily accessible city with items and areas for all and finally lead a great crusade to purge the evil baby eating Llothite drow :twisted:

(supported by half the population of amian drow). Incidently this would allow Disco to make a drow hunting area as there should be :lol:

If the latter then you are wrong as the *vast* majority of drow are demon worshipping, baby eating psycho's, and the rest of Amia has much to fear. Take your pick :wink:

PS to the poster comparing drow to African-americans... :shock:

Not cool on many levels... Most importantly African Americans aren't ECL +2 with a host of magical powers that live underground worshipping a giant spider demoness :wink:

. But seriously that is''real world'' rascism , bigotry and ignorance whereas *in the lore* at least drow are objectively evil.

Mr T

Another point to consider is that adventurers, who basically every single PC character is, are going to either be more "open" or simply care less about racial differences than commoners, who, contrary to working with members of other races for a living, are most often competing with them for resources and territory in some way. From the standpoint of PCs, I don't really think the lack of racism is a problem (although, one could argue there's simply too many PCs I suppose,

) but the world, meaning the NPCs and the towns and their laws and such, could certainly stand to be a bit more xenophobic in my opinion. But people, meaning the PCs, complain it somehow lessens RP opportunities to do things like lock gates and make strict rules about racial admittance and association, so if people want a more believable FR setting they'd have to deal with such things.

Lalelilolu wrote:

Guxx wrote:

On the note of my racist character... I've actually taken to sending tells apologizing either beforehand or just after he starts ripping on some one.

From what I've seen a lot of players take it better if you make the effort to show that it's not an attack on them as a player and that it's just an IC thing.

Yossarin wrote:

I have my own opinions about racism in Amia, but for me it boils down to Amia's players not being prepared for a "hardcore RP" environment that blurs lines or, alternatively, makes ugly distinctions.

Honest opinion? People who are going to cry because their drow character, or their tiefling character, or whatever, is insulted need to either A) not play on Amia, or B) play a character that doesn't have such ugly connotation attached. Play a nice, caring, sweet human who doesn't ever do anything. If you're going to play a character that other characters might not like for any reason, you better be ready to accept the consequences of that.

Carter wrote:

Honest opinion? People who are going to cry because their drow character, or their tiefling character, or whatever, is insulted need to either A) not play on Amia, or B) play a character that doesn't have such ugly connotation attached. Play a nice, caring, sweet human who doesn't ever do anything. If you're going to play a character that other characters might not like for any reason, you better be ready to accept the consequences of that.

I agree with this entirely, one of the main reasons behind my half-drow character is because I enjoy the conflict that is suppose to, and occassionally does, come from his race.

I love when an elf makes an off comment about him and he gets mad, I love when a drow talks down to him and he threatens to gut him, hell, I love just being able to snap at people when they call him 'drow'.

But that's just me, he's my conflict character.

Mr T wrote:

This here is part of the problem. Are you honestly trying to say that half of *all* drow on Amia are good surface dwellers, or half of all *player character * drow are good surface dwellers?

I meant pc's, which are those drow others would actually see and interact with, and would actually affect one's perception of drow.

Carter wrote:

Talon wrote:

Proper FR Drow don't exist on Amia.

That isn't the point.

Of course it isn't the point, it is the problem.

Case in point:

Zante wrote:

The statement that most drow are evil does not apply to amia. The fact is that at least half of amia's drow population are good surface dwellers, which is a provable fact. Even the evil drow aren't actually all that evil, there is no special reason to fear them over evil humans/elves etc.

Racism?

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