AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I recognize that, apprently, lots of things have a unique twist on Amia, especially when dealing with mechanics because of the need to keep things acceptable for a real time online RP simulation.

But I've found lately, that while playing my high Lore character, specifically designed with lots of lore and history sources and notes on hand for the world of Abir-Toril and Forgotten Realems, no one wants to hear the actual lore.

It's starting to really get under my skin how often I find things that are flat wrong, or ignored, major factions following a deity that completely ignore major aspects of the dogma or even blatently violate it, how little anyone understands the mechanics of magic.

But most of all, how almost no one is willing to hear my versions and information IC. I've been told a number of times by players they simply don't care about the Lore and my sources, they are exempt my player RP rights. Normally I can understand that but it makes my Lore based character impotent when everything he knows is ignored.

It's probably just the PnP DM in me that get's me all edgy, and I understand how large and complexe the DnD and FR lore is, but the unwillingness of players to accept that maybe, JUST MAYBE, they are mistaken about the history they know, is really starting to get to me.

*sighs*

Yes. It is a sad fact that many people could give a hoot about others. I think it's more of a player thing than an IC character thing. I have found it rather fruitless to make characters that rely on others actually caring what you have to say. Had a character for 1 year that had a great backstory that was never once asked about. You need to hit people with a sledgehammer to get them to notice you have a story to tell, and even then you will find that only 1 time in 100 will someone actually take the bait.

I feel for you.

Drannok wrote:

I recognize that, apprently, lots of things have a unique twist on Amia, especially when dealing with mechanics because of the need to keep things acceptable for a real time online RP simulation.

But I've found lately, that while playing my high Lore character, specifically designed with lots of lore and history sources and notes on hand for the world of Abir-Toril and Forgotten Realems, no one wants to hear the actual lore.

It's starting to really get under my skin how often I find things that are flat wrong, or ignored, major factions following a deity that completely ignore major aspects of the dogma or even blatently violate it, how little anyone understands the mechanics of magic.

But most of all, how almost no one is willing to hear my versions and information IC. I've been told a number of times by players they simply don't care about the Lore and my sources, they are exempt my player RP rights. Normally I can understand that but it makes my Lore based character impotent when everything he knows is ignored.

It's probably just the PnP DM in me that get's me all edgy, and I understand how large and complexe the DnD and FR lore is, but the unwillingness of players to accept that maybe, JUST MAYBE, they are mistaken about the history they know, is really starting to get to me.

*sighs*

PCs believing their version of religion is right and yours is wrong?

No way, dude. No way.

PArdon my disbelief at this entire topic. Your entire forum demeanor as well tends to set you up as an elitistic jerk.

uhh... go to bendir. my main is interested. I am too... He would rather sit and chat about the progression of human culture all day than go and hunt. He doesn't even consider himself hunting, training, or pleasure killing. He sees it as learning about the creatures' physiology.

TormakSaber wrote:

Drannok wrote:

I recognize that, apprently, lots of things have a unique twist on Amia, especially when dealing with mechanics because of the need to keep things acceptable for a real time online RP simulation.

But I've found lately, that while playing my high Lore character, specifically designed with lots of lore and history sources and notes on hand for the world of Abir-Toril and Forgotten Realems, no one wants to hear the actual lore.

It's starting to really get under my skin how often I find things that are flat wrong, or ignored, major factions following a deity that completely ignore major aspects of the dogma or even blatently violate it, how little anyone understands the mechanics of magic.

But most of all, how almost no one is willing to hear my versions and information IC. I've been told a number of times by players they simply don't care about the Lore and my sources, they are exempt my player RP rights. Normally I can understand that but it makes my Lore based character impotent when everything he knows is ignored.

It's probably just the PnP DM in me that get's me all edgy, and I understand how large and complexe the DnD and FR lore is, but the unwillingness of players to accept that maybe, JUST MAYBE, they are mistaken about the history they know, is really starting to get to me.

*sighs*

PCs believing their version of religion is right and yours is wrong?

No way, dude. No way.

PArdon my disbelief at this entire topic. Your entire forum demeanor as well tends to set you up as an elitistic jerk.

We're dealing with Faerun, Faerun is an established world with religions that are defined reasonably enough *though individual characters could focus on or dim their focus on certain aspects*.

Unfortunately, Faerun is an established world. There are going to be purists who see Faerun's gods as immalleable, and similar.

Some people aren't gonna see eye to eye on how the God's portrayed.

I like the idea of trying to work with someone who might be meaning to play a worshipper or servant of a deity, and get them in a direction which helps more befit the character concept or the deity they serve (whichever suits the situation).

To say he's in the wrong for insisting in SOME effort to portray the deity or their Dogma closer to spec, especially in an established setting is a mixed situation. Given what Amia's designed for, yes it is more designed to play as you wish to play, however as we are using a set setting, I do concur there should be more effort to try to play appropriately to the Dogmas and similar of the involved factions deities and the like.

. . .

This is why a world of absolutes fails when you try to put real people in it. A world with real gods dictating the religion, instead of only high priests and religious leaders.

That's not even the major point of my complaint though. It's more about being unable to even play information based characters, or try to teach history here because of total lack of interest.

Elitist jerk? Maybe. Rules Lawyer, an equally hated thing, is also fitting.

I freely admit to acting like both all too often.

*cough* Eldathmonkshifters! *cough*

EDIT:
real life example of religion: lets look at those Christians. Main sect, Catholics. They were the real deal. Then some followers thought it was a bad way to follow Jesus, so... Eastern Orthodox, schism of 1054. sticking to the Roman Catholic side of things, fast forward to Martin Luther and his 95 theses. he had 95 complaints about how the church was run and he decided to get his own group going. The protestants just multiplied after that. Tons of sects of the same religion all with different ideas on who/what god is, etc.

why is it possible for so many sects to exist? because there is no tangible evidence that the higher up prefers any one particular religion. In this game, the gods give tangible evidence of what they want. Simple trial and error would be all that is necessary to fine tune your group to serving a particular god. The gods would favor followers who do what they do in a more exact way than those who stray from the path

Well, as far as I see it, I can interpret my gods dogma as I will, and so long as he doesn't smite me or remove my casting abilities I'm still treading the thin line.

That said, my characters will relate to everything IC, however unbelievable.

Drannok wrote:

This is why a world of absolutes fails when you try to put real people in it. A world with real gods dictating the religion, instead of only high priests and religious leaders.

Well, in Amia it needs to be the players, as there are far too many priests and the DMs cannot possibly keep track of all of them nor be there to make sure said priest is truly following the dogma of his deity or if he should be smitten (sp?) for it.

That reminds me... I've been considering writing a thread about clerical RP at Amia for a long time now.

As soon as I get home, I will start working on it.

"Hey, want to sit there and listen to me lecture you about (topic) for 15-30 minutes?"

Can't expect everyone to be interested. You may need to pick a better topic, anyway, or find a better locale. Most people could look up these things if they were truly interested.

I think part of my issue is being used to DMing in PnP, where the DM has to be ever present, and being kinda draconian about alot of rules due to paranoia of loopholes and things.

Not to mention being in sort of a rules lawyery group.

Basically what Tormak said.

I have a higher Lore skill than you do and I don't have any such troubles. I think the issue stems from a different source.

However, there is probably one difference between us: I, as a player, know all of jack shit about the intricacies of genuine FR lore. Just a couple of things here and there, and most of those things probably wrong.

No, I bring in my own lore and manage to sell it as authentic, right or wrong. The only way for me to adjust is to, well, read a bunch of sourcebooks and (mostly) poorly written literature, and I've got better things to do with my time, and better choices for reading material, too!

Yossarin wrote:

I have a higher Lore skill than you do and I don't have any such troubles. I think the issue stems from a different source.

However, there is probably one difference between us: I, as a player, know all of jack (censored) about the intricacies of genuine FR lore. Just a couple of things here and there, and most of those things probably wrong.

No, I bring in my own lore and manage to sell it as authentic, right or wrong. The only way for me to adjust is to, well, read a bunch of sourcebooks and (mostly) poorly written literature, and I've got better things to do with my time, and better choices for reading material, too!

So long as you sound authoritative people will believe you - being charismatic means you can bluff through whatever you like until you actually meet someone who knows what they're talking about.

It's not elitist actually but it is tantamount to asking people to not ignore gravity at times, I will admit.

Honestly sitting and speaking with Drannok IG/IC gave me better insight as to the workings of things I had planned for my PCs. I'm a nut that way in wanting my plausible to be really -possible- in an FR world.

It's not a limit to find out that there are portions of a Dogma or world defining rule that applies to your PC. It just inspires greater creativity to work in it or around it and perhaps helps the PC to grow in character.

Loremasters would be awesome for PCs that are Int/Wis based to run around as. Just frigging fun really. *shrugs* But that's just me I guess. I like a challenge.

Loremasters are great to have around. They can tell you everything you need to know. People just get annoyed when they are told they are RPing their characters wrong (whether they are or not is a debate I will not enter).

Yurell wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

I have a higher Lore skill than you do and I don't have any such troubles. I think the issue stems from a different source.

However, there is probably one difference between us: I, as a player, know all of jack (censored) about the intricacies of genuine FR lore. Just a couple of things here and there, and most of those things probably wrong.

No, I bring in my own lore and manage to sell it as authentic, right or wrong. The only way for me to adjust is to, well, read a bunch of sourcebooks and (mostly) poorly written literature, and I've got better things to do with my time, and better choices for reading material, too!

So long as you sound authoritative people will believe you - being charismatic means you can bluff through whatever you like until you actually meet someone who knows what they're talking about.

Yes, those are the people I fear. :shock:

But I figured out a long time ago that the "lore" I teach and deal with needs to avoid history. I don't know the Realms lore to be able teach its history. I can, however, instruct and discuss other soft sciences and subjects that have relevance in the setting and never trip any loremonkey's warning signals. The only kind of history I'll speak about with any authority is Amian history that I've been around for.

I believe my guy Barnaby has met your Guy Drannok. I don't believe any Lore subject ever came up. But if it did, i'd probably be interested in a chat.

I can only think of one reason why I wouldn't be interested in this sort of thing.

And that is Ao-level God Lore. Do the common folk know anything about what goes on up there? Do the gods send out newsletters to their worshippers? I find a lot of knowledge on this sort of thing to be rediculously detailed (Time of Troubles aside). Its fine as players to know this sort of thing to get a better feel for the "characters" of the gods but when it drifts IC and every gnome and his dog knows what Urdlen had for breakfast yesterday, I think it can get very wierd. I'd prefer to see speculation (especially incorrect speculation) on the divine.

Drannok wrote:

It's starting to really get under my skin how often I find things that are flat wrong, or ignored, major factions following a deity that completely ignore major aspects of the dogma or even blatently violate it, how little anyone understands the mechanics of magic.

But most of all, how almost no one is willing to hear my versions and information IC. I've been told a number of times by players they simply don't care about the Lore and my sources, they are exempt my player RP rights. Normally I can understand that but it makes my Lore based character impotent when everything he knows is ignored.

It's probably just the PnP DM in me that get's me all edgy, and I understand how large and complexe the DnD and FR lore is, but the unwillingness of players to accept that maybe, JUST MAYBE, they are mistaken about the history they know, is really starting to get to me.

*sighs*

If you ever want a man to really 'tell you something', contradict him.

If someone asks, offer advice oocly. No one will respond well with... 'Hey, you're wrong, I'm right.'

Religious fervor in Amia is given leniency, but I've never seen from the mainland any sort of sign, or interpretation that any of the sects on the island are right, or wrong in any way.

You're not a DM here, so you have to take a look at it from a player's point of view.

There's one thing on Amia that doesn't get treated with respect at all And that's people who denigrate others' RP. If you don't like it that is fine, don't tell people you don't like it, or it's wrong. Its not your place to, mind yourself and your own RPing, if you think someone is violating the rules Screen shot/report to a DM.

It is nice to have some ground rules for fantasy, but it is still fantasy and we can make up stuff with our imaginations the same or even better as the people who made up the original lore...

..."hey look that's a dragon"

"No that's a giant lizard with wings!, Run!!"

...at least we haven't stolen the egyptian pantheon yet. *cough cough*

I mean the players haven't anyway... *glances at the D&D 'loremonkeys'*

Edit: I must make an exception here when it comes to the Amian established Gods/religions, there are certain religious rules or 'lore' that can't be easily broken or just remade/invented (unless they are remade when the god is put into the module for the first time)

Neither of my characters would mind listening to lore lectures, save perhaps from one, maybe two of them. I, as a player, can't be arsed to RP listening for half an hour, however.

As for the absolutes, I can't say I know a whole lot about FR, very little to be honest, but the absolutes are universal, yes? Like, killing someone is universally evil, unless in safe defense or whatever. But every single person on Toril, doesn't know about every single god, do they? Their dogmas, their blah-blah-blah?

What I find more annoying than some random dude flinging lore at you every second due to his high lore skill, is someone with absolutely no lore skill, 8 Wisdom, 10 Intelligence, blabbering on about every single god as if they knew everything about them. I like to tag a little note to those people, you know what it says? "Metagamer."

So yeah, rather you with your X Lorepoints, than the usuals.

krytellan wrote:

I have found it rather fruitless to make characters that rely on others actually caring what you have to say. Had a character for 1 year that had a great backstory that was never once asked about. You need to hit people with a sledgehammer to get them to notice you have a story to tell, and even then you will find that only 1 time in 100 will someone actually take the bait.

I feel for you.

Hey, Kalliniel was my first major character on Amia, and he's been around for three and a half years. The first time anyone asked about his life was a few weeks back, and then Maias had to log in the middle of the story. Tragic.

As for religion, it's not as absolute you make it out to be. The only thing worse than a rules lawyer trying to stuff facts down your throat is one who's got the facts wrong. The matter is discussed in various sources, but a nice, thorough look into heresies, church politics and the relation between gods and their worshipers can be found in Power of Faerûn. I'm not going to go into much detail, but suffice to say, the gods don't lead their churches, speak their dogma to mortals or dictate the edicts of their faith. For example, the part in Malar's dogma about ridding disease in nature to keep the hunt clean and bloodlines strong, was a decree made by Garmos Saernclaws some 1000 years ago (Cormyr: A Novel, page 74), not an eternal truth from Malar himself.

Personally, I play nothing but loremasters these days. It's mostly because I enjoy sprinkling tidbits of Realmslore into the game for flavour, and the average Faerûnian is woefully ignorant of most things; even moreso than us players. They don't know how magic works, what the Weeping War was and maybe not even where Aglarond lies. I've never had much problems, except when I face questions my characters should have answers to but I have not a clue about. You know, when a fellow Cormyrean asks what was going on back home when Joon left, etc. Usually, I just change the subject.

I don't have problems with keeping people interested. I try to drop in hints and references in the middle of RP, like you would naturally refer to things familiar to you, instead of giving lectures or snide remarks. Also, I reckon it's smart to not make the other character/player feel like you've just proven them wrong and embarassed them, because that won't make them very receptive to what you have to offer. Instead, I try to give the other player the option to react as his character knew what he was just told if appropriate, even if the player didn't. Let them have their dignity, and everyone's happy. It's fun to show off your knowledge, I know that very well, but the more discreet and elegant you are the more fun it is. I think the succesful mentality in playing a "loremaster" is to challenge yourself to entertain others, not just to challenge others with your skillz. (That's better left for the forums, where no one's supposed to have fun!)

Imagine the kind of person you'd like to listen to in real life, and tailor your style around that, I suppose. I know I wouldn't like a know-it-all who chimes in on everything, so I doubt such a character would appeal to me either.

I guess you also need to pick your target audience. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I tend to end up RPing with folks who're curious and conversational. Besides, when you offer your lore tohelp track down lost treasures or fight legendary monsters, you're rarely turned down even by the more practical adventurers.

I personally enjoy RP'ing with loremasters. I find it to be very rewarding and interesting.

Yet, if someone were to... say... tell Darthion he wasn't following Bane correctly, you're likely looking forward to a beating.

IronAngel wrote:

For example, the part in Malar's dogma about ridding disease in nature to keep the hunt clean and bloodlines strong, was a decree made by Garmos Saernclaws some 1000 years ago (Cormyr: A Novel, page 74), not an eternal truth from Malar himself.

Reminds me of Lloth forbidding love ... Her dogma states that you cannot disobey Her or Her tenets for love, it was a High Priestess named Elvanshalee that decided love was useless and week (at least according to Menzoberranzen and Drow of the Underdark second ed).

Iron and Yossarin both share something in common that makes their lore-heavy characters (even though Yoss makes his lore up on the fly) work.

They make it *interesting* to listen to them.

Perhaps that's the difference? If I'm going to sit and listen to someone blather on about some nonsensical lore that i probably don't care about, because it IS nonsensical, well, it better be interesting. This is precisely why some fiction novels crash and burn, whilst others win awards. Some are interesting, some are not.

Just keep in mind that nobody is here to listen to a university lecture. We're here for entertainment. So toss about all the lore you want, just make sure it is entertaining for the rest of us, else nobody will care to listen to you.

Cori wrote:

Iron and Yossarin both share something in common that makes their lore-heavy characters (even though Yoss makes his lore up on the fly) work.

They make it *interesting* to listen to them.

Perhaps that's the difference? If I'm going to sit and listen to someone blather on about some nonsensical lore that i probably don't care about, because it IS nonsensical, well, it better be interesting. This is precisely why some fiction novels crash and burn, whilst others win awards. Some are interesting, some are not.

Just keep in mind that nobody is here to listen to a university lecture. We're here for entertainment. So toss about all the lore you want, just make sure it is entertaining for the rest of us, else nobody will care to listen to you.

Ahh, I was trying to figure out a polite way of saying "Well, you just might be overbearing and boring..."

TormakSaber wrote:

Cori wrote:

Iron and Yossarin both share something in common that makes their lore-heavy characters (even though Yoss makes his lore up on the fly) work.

They make it *interesting* to listen to them.

Perhaps that's the difference? If I'm going to sit and listen to someone blather on about some nonsensical lore that i probably don't care about, because it IS nonsensical, well, it better be interesting. This is precisely why some fiction novels crash and burn, whilst others win awards. Some are interesting, some are not.

Just keep in mind that nobody is here to listen to a university lecture. We're here for entertainment. So toss about all the lore you want, just make sure it is entertaining for the rest of us, else nobody will care to listen to you.

Ahh, I was trying to figure out a polite way of saying "Well, you just might be overbearing and boring..."

Thanks, Tormie. It made me giggle after having this awful day. :P

Woes of a Loremaster

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