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Blind Drow?
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Author:  Lascivar [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 7:01 AM ]
Post subject:  Blind Drow?
I've a character I intend to create (after having done 31 different build tests, literally) as a Blind Drow. The stats aren't important etc, what I'm more curious about, is if it's actually possible to have such a character IC. Would he be cast out of society for a weakness like blindness, or would it be allowed?

EDIT: Meant to say Evil Drow, not one prancing around on the surface, as anything goes up there. :P
Author:  Gers [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 7:19 AM ]
Post subject: 
If they were born blind, they'd probably be killed at birth. If they went blind as an adult, they'd probably be laughed at, humiliated, and either killed or kept around as a source of cheap, cruel amusement, IMHO
Author:  Nekhy [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 7:51 AM ]
Post subject: 
It's a big flaw. The chances are such a drow would never make it to adult, because any drow with such weaknesses are simply killed off as soon as others notice they're blind.

Eilistraeen drow are an exception to this, of course.
Author:  Kjetta [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 8:01 AM ]
Post subject: 
I very much appreciate your take on drow RP though. The whole point of RPing in a draconinan society that despises weaknesses and flaws is of course to engage in a game where you hide and draw attention away from your own flaws. It must be utterly boring to play an actual flawless drow. Blindness might be a tall order though.
Author:  Gunz [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 8:10 AM ]
Post subject: 
Totally agree with the three above. A underdark Drow that's blind would be killed so fast if born that way. If it became blind, it would still probably suffer the same fate.
Author:  soundofastream [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 8:21 AM ]
Post subject: 
I reckon there's room in a Ghaunadan cult for a Blind Drow....we'd accept all sort of outcasts, providing the Drow is actually still useful (Blind Bard whose hearing is so good, he doesn't need sight for instance)....*shameless plug*

This assumes you've left the Llothite society and stumbled into a Ghaunadan cult (highly unlikely except on Amia)..there again, you might also just as likely become an easy sacrifice...it all depends on whether or not he converts and renounces Lloth....etc...
Author:  Lascivar [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 8:31 AM ]
Post subject: 
Hm, thanks for the input. I may still in fact create the character, and keep the flaw to himself as much as possible. The idea was that he's relied on extremely acute hearing and smell to survive so far. - I was juggling the idea of taking Epic Skill - Listen as well just to further that idea, but that's much later down the track.

The blindness happened after birth, related to poisons during combat.
Author:  HellScourge [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 8:45 AM ]
Post subject: 
I met one blind Drow so far, he was very secretive and not the fanatic 'Rargh, surfacers, rargh, die, die, die! Stab stab stab!' type.
He took great care to hide his name and his true identity.

Not sure if he was elistraen or Lolthite though, it could've been both. As I said, he was good at hiding it. ;)
Author:  IronAngel [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 16:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
I don't care for the idea of drow being an idealistic race, really. To me, they're pragmatic to the extreme. Being able to keep yourself alive is all that matters. If the character proved a useful asset to another drow, maybe a matron mother, I doubt he'd be turned down or persecuted because of his blindness. I don't think any drow actually buy the "Imperfection is an affront to our divine race", they just use it as an excuse to get rid of competitors and former pawns who are no longer useful.
Author:  Acrid [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 17:46 PM ]
Post subject: 
Oh you think? i tough it was writting in one of theses book that are in Ultrinan library, something like: "Those with a difference wont be accept in the society.." hm, cant remember the rest but i could always check it up.
Author:  IronAngel [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 17:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
I could care less what a book in Ultrinnan library says.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 18:13 PM ]
Post subject: 
Meow, Iron with the claws.

That said: Blindness always comes off as gimmicky to me, in a character.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 18:32 PM ]
Post subject: 
Do it! But fair warning, I will use drow hand signs around you just to be a jerk. :twisted:
Author:  Moridan_X [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 18:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
do it

there is obviously plenty of chance that a good drow goes prancing around the surface and i wouldn't think it rare for a blind one to go to the surface, hey, at least it wouldn't actually acknowledge the light on the surface.

if ur drow aint on surface though, it'd probably be killed, but ya never know...

up to you, holmes
Author:  -Dark Faith- [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 18:51 PM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
I don't care for the idea of drow being an idealistic race, really. To me, they're pragmatic to the extreme. Being able to keep yourself alive is all that matters. If the character proved a useful asset to another drow, maybe a matron mother, I doubt he'd be turned down or persecuted because of his blindness. I don't think any drow actually buy the "Imperfection is an affront to our divine race", they just use it as an excuse to get rid of competitors and former pawns who are no longer useful.


This.

If the blind drow is able to track people down due to his heightned senses, or do any job better than a "Normal" drow would, I highly doubt any matron would pass up on the chance of having such a valuable asset in her house.
Author:  Gunz [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 22:38 PM ]
Post subject: 
If he gets it later in life, he'll have a better shot at living if he can hide it well enough.

Although Iron may or may not be right, it doesn't rule out the possibility of another Drow killing him off with that excuse just to be sure he doesn't become future competition some how. Drow are chaotic and ruthless, give them an excuse to kill and they just might take it.
Author:  IronAngel [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 22:48 PM ]
Post subject: 
o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:
Although Iron may or may not be right, it doesn't rule out the possibility of another Drow killing him off with that excuse just to be sure he doesn't become future competition some how. Drow are chaotic and ruthless, give them an excuse to kill and they just might take it.


Yeah, but that goes for any character. It's something that remains to be seen in game. The concept itself isn't impossible.
Author:  Yurell [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 22:56 PM ]
Post subject: 
o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:
Although Iron may or may not be right, it doesn't rule out the possibility of another Drow killing him off with that excuse just to be sure he doesn't become future competition some how. Drow are chaotic and ruthless, give them an excuse to kill and they just might take it.


Nope, the PvP rules do that.
Author:  Gunz [ Fri, Mar 27 2009, 23:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
IronAngel wrote:
o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:
Although Iron may or may not be right, it doesn't rule out the possibility of another Drow killing him off with that excuse just to be sure he doesn't become future competition some how. Drow are chaotic and ruthless, give them an excuse to kill and they just might take it.


Yeah, but that goes for any character. It's something that remains to be seen in game. The concept itself isn't impossible.


The way his further explained it, no, it's not, you're right. It's just going to be extremely hard.

If you try it and pull it off, my hats off to you. That's a tough thing to pull.
Author:  aurelius311 [ Sat, Mar 28 2009, 0:42 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:

That said: Blindness always comes off as gimmicky to me, in a character.


I agree. its impossible to not meta game that in my mind. not maliciously, just mechanically.
Author:  soundofastream [ Sat, Mar 28 2009, 16:25 PM ]
Post subject: 
Well, you're all kind of assuming all Drow are Llothites. Not all think the way some might in Ultrinnan. Vhaeraunites might be very tolerant of a blind drow. Elistraeens would heartily welcome them and Ghaunadan drow would also likely take him/her under their wing.

In most cases, the person must be useful still...
Author:  Gunz [ Sat, Mar 28 2009, 21:56 PM ]
Post subject: 
soundofastream wrote:
Well, you're all kind of assuming all Drow are Llothites. Not all think the way some might in Ultrinnan. Vhaeraunites might be very tolerant of a blind drow. Elistraeens would heartily welcome them and Ghaunadan drow would also likely take him/her under their wing.

In most cases, the person must be useful still...


He said he was making an Underdark drow, Eili drow are extremely rare and extremely secretive when they're from the Underdark. Not to mention, they usually live secretly pretending to be of another faith to stay alive. In the Vhaeraunite faith, true, they may have a slightly better shot but make no mistake, they're very much just as vicious as Lolthites and can even be worse. After all, their main goal is to rule the surface with their elven cousins. A evil superiority complex is still present so when they see the weakness they may very well kill the weak drow. Ghaunaden, I'll bow out to, I don't really know much about him.

I'm just stating possibility's here, not absolutes. Don't hang me >.>
Author:  Talon [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 0:35 AM ]
Post subject: 
I think "blind" characters should have forced mechanical blindness permanently placed on them.
Author:  Galenson [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 0:47 AM ]
Post subject: 
I've always seen that inspiration for the Drow came from the ancient Spartiates in Spartan society due to the extreme amount of similarities between the two. I won't blaber on though, I'll stick to a specific point. Both the Spartans and the Drow don't tolerate the weak well and either kill them at birth or ridicule them in every way possible.

The Drow might not have been sacrificed.. but either Vhaeraunite or Lolthite, be prepared to take some flak. None-the-less, have a go and see how it plays out. Don't expect to get too far with the character though at first... just incase things don't go to plan.
Author:  555444333 [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 0:52 AM ]
Post subject: 
I'd kill that shit straight out the door.
Author:  Galenson [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 1:00 AM ]
Post subject: 
Yes, we all know how Spartan you are.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 2:50 AM ]
Post subject: 
Talon wrote:
I think "blind" characters should have forced mechanical blindness permanently placed on them.


The character, at 28, will have ~85-100 Listen skill with a few pieces of Mythalled gear, and a couple items I've noticed along the way, bringing it close to the +50 item cap.

I think non-blind characters should have forced mechanical blindness on them unless they have +90 Spot. See what I did there?
Author:  Talon [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 3:42 AM ]
Post subject: 
Just because you don't have epic spot doesn't mean you can't see what's around you. Your argument is fail.

And having all that listen doesn't mean he can "see," he isn't Daredevil.
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 4:15 AM ]
Post subject: 
Talon wrote:
Just because you don't have epic spot doesn't mean you can't see what's around you. Your argument is fail.


Nope, but you can't see the moon (can't remember what the DC for spotting it is, but it's about three light seconds away ... spot DC of 300 000 minus whatever the moon's size modifier is)
Author:  tao_myst [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 4:55 AM ]
Post subject: 
Just pretend what you see on screen is what your drows mind sees, there are more senses than sight and sound to play with, of course should have 0 spot skill being sight blind.

Ever seen a guy fight two people blindfolded?? its quite amazing. it is possible to "see" without your eyes but its weird...hope it works out in any case, also you should have immune to darkness as what would it do lol.
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 5:06 AM ]
Post subject: 
You can't see. You are using your hearing and best judgement to tell where everyone is. You are at a huge disadvantage since you can't tell colours or insignia ... all in all you're going to have a bugger of a time with that disability, especially in drow town, but good luck anyway.

Note: 'you' refers to the blind character. I'm sure the player enjoys watching him suffer.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 7:07 AM ]
Post subject: 
I somewhat think of being able to locate people, the same way I would as if they were invisible. The Listen skill actually lets you spot people who are invisible, as long as you can pass the the DC - The DC including several factors which you can find here.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Invisible

The more Listen, the further away you can locate them, aswell as beyond obstacles/doors etc.

By my reckoning, having about 70+ Listen, you could easily pinpoint a person's breathing or heartbeat, at 105+ you're likely going to hear a Shadowdancer's eyes blink.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 7:11 AM ]
Post subject: 
You sure about all that? I've had Torin running full bore at 80 listen once, and couldn't pick up Joe Blow Level 5 in invis a ways away from me.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 7:13 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
You sure about all that? I've had Torin running full bore at 80 listen once, and couldn't pick up Joe Blow Level 5 in invis a ways away from me.


Certain of it.. I've got an Assassin/Monk on BoW who has just on 110 Listen.. Gets through Invis and SDers without even trying.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 7:58 AM ]
Post subject: 
That's BoW though, not Amia.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 8:15 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
That's BoW though, not Amia.


Unless Listen was modified in particular for Amia, then it should still have the same effect, since it's NWN default for Listen checks against invisibility.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 8:23 AM ]
Post subject: 
Blah, I've never ever caught an invis dude wih Listen though...
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 9:08 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
Blah, I've never ever caught an invis dude wih Listen though...


Neither do I, and my drow has 95 AC natural before rolling.
On an average roll that's theoretically enough to hear the heartbeat of anyone within 1.2m
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 11:26 AM ]
Post subject: 
Possibly check with Disco or a dev to see if Listen or Invis have been modified at all on Amia. I haven't actually checked Listen vs Invisibility on Amia in particular unfortunately.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 11:33 AM ]
Post subject: 
I have it doesn't work.

My character Tjorn (a bard) had 101 listen and cursed for -19 and didn't locate an invisible person.
Author:  Yurell [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 11:52 AM ]
Post subject: 
I seem to remember someone posting somewhere else (I think it was Iron) that listen will not counter invis, and I think it's a NWN thing not an Amia thing, since that doesn't seem the kind of thing they'd nerf away.
Author:  Nekhy [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 11:55 AM ]
Post subject: 
I have a Listen-focused character, and I've never noticed any of those above mentioned perks from it. As far as I know, they have also not been modified on Amia. Might be something that in theory works like XYZ, but in reality, doesn't.

Listen-based characters are not very good for other than RP flavour.

Anyway, more on blind characters. My character also happens to be blind. I suggest you do some research on eye movements in blind people, for example. It's very difficult to hide blindness from those who can see your eyes. People with normal vision pick up even the smallest inconsistencies in how your eyes react to sharp movements, for example.

There's a lot of things you can't sense by hearing only. Colours are one major obstacle, and there's no way around this. Shapes are another, unless you can touch them. Textures, too.

I always try to find a medium between gimping my own gameplay enjoyment by going all puritan about what my character can and can't do, and giving other characters a slight advantage over her flaws. My character can fight, she's been trained in blind combat (that's how I explain the feat Blind Fight anyway), but she'll be slightly disadvantaged at other, mostly RP situations. She can, for example, navigate through a lot of areas by counting steps and turns. She remembers how many steps it takes to this point and when to turn to get to another point, but if for some reason there's a major change in the area, she'll have to readjust.

It's a great idea to spend some time with a blind person IRL to get an idea how it feels like to be blind and what you can do. You can do quite a lot of things, but you just have to think differently.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 12:13 PM ]
Post subject: 
Quite possible that I've just seen mages running around without invis on a PvP server, and everyone else ignores them. :P
Author:  Nekhy [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 12:38 PM ]
Post subject: 
Or you've seen the invisibility bug. Everyone can see invisible people from proximity. But that also applies to characters with 0 Listen.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 14:14 PM ]
Post subject: 
Mm.. I meant in the distance, but I don't actually think seeing people in Invisibility at close range is a bug, rather than NWN's gimped mechanics.
Author:  Talon [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 14:26 PM ]
Post subject: 
In NWN listen has nothing to do with spotting invisibility. I believe it was supposed to at one point, but, like parry, this was something else that was never fixed.
Author:  Lascivar [ Sun, Mar 29 2009, 15:05 PM ]
Post subject: 
Talon wrote:
In NWN listen has nothing to do with spotting invisibility. I believe it was supposed to at one point, but, like parry, this was something else that was never fixed.


>.> What's wrong with Parry..? Far as I know it works unless being attacked by blue targets, but I don't use it much at all. lol
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