AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Not sure if this is really off topic, but alot of evil folks have been mentioning they would like to see the return of the hold, I posted an IC thing for but I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't mind OCC to see it back that would IC.

Now I hate to bug DMs or ask for somthing not many folks would care about, I was a DM and well I hated to see anything go unused.

So I have to ask, how many people are interested in the return of Wyrmhold as a force of evil and if you are any particular ideas for renovations or new stuff you might have would be welcome as the hard working DM staff can always use player input, ideas and the like as it helps our DMs to not fry their brains thinking up EVERYTHINg on their own.

Personally I would like to see it make a come back mostly due to the new road just south of it. It seems like the perfect highway robbery spot. =P

With the renovations to the maps I enjoy the thought of Wyrmhold returning and gate-ing the only two entrances to it's zone. The major risk is that aside from 1 zone of mylocks we're right next to the damn Dale and thats only a cart ride from Cordor. I suggest filling that pass with boulders and if possible the new Wyrmhold should have a few secret acesses into the underdark or maybe a one way ride on the under-river that way you have an underground escape. I know there are a few members of the chromatic flight gathering and desiring this thing as well. Kiran supports it firmly as he believes in a city of law where the law is upheld and pathetic things like racism are a non-issue.

Edit: Also a thought is to gather funds and get evil wizards to establish permanent one way portals out as well. It's already pretty tough for evil to maneuver safely across amia, why not work to counter this?

Well, you heard my opinion in game. I am all up for it.

Shipped this to GD.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Phearnun wrote:

We can rebuild Benwick and the kelly temple inside the old city, aswell as adding Udos Dro'Xun again so no changes at all happen to the server while we are at it. Mabey raise all the fallen npc's so there is even more of a stagnat feeling on the server. It could become like a bad dream for Kohlingen that repeats itself yearly on the server.

I'm with Phaerun, just add a dash of "we have too many hubs already."

I wasn't here to see it destroyed, but I don't think it should be rebuilt. From what I understand, it's destruction was a major RP event. Trying to rebuild it there, beyond almost 'retconning' this event, would be far from subtle and likely see every epic paladin on the isle to stop it.

Building it elsewhere if it is really needed seems a better idea to me.

Think there is a vaste support for the return of Wyrmhold under playings with evil aligned characters. The point is now if but how. Just posting it on forum isn't going to do anything. Coming up with a good plan IC and playing it out IC is the only way the DM's are ever going to do it. It won't just pop back just because people want it.

The fact is the site has been hallowed and untill that get reversed in some way, it isn't going to happen.

Now please don't go planning and plotting and talking about it on forum. I also find that such easy ways of "role playing" things, especially for mayor things. Do it IC and when a plan is made and alliance for it has been formed, suggest it via PM to the DM's. This will also keep every good aligned player from flocking to it like moths to a lamp.

I find it silly to restrict something on the grounds that there are too many things already in the module.

If there's a group of people who thinks of themselves as a faction, they can do it without needing their own Forum. If certain people want to get Wyrmhold back, I'd suggest they use what is left of it and request no Mylocks to spawn directly in the ruins. They could put up placeables and make it into a makeshift hideout. No hub needed, and maybe a total of 20 DM mouse clicks.

It's died by plot, and to have it just "pop back" into existance would be awkward. On the flipside, just because certain old structures did never gather a following to be rebuilt, it does not invalidate this. More well-played evil should always be welcome.

Phearnun wrote:

We can rebuild Benwick and the kelly temple inside the old city, aswell as adding Udos Dro'Xun again so no changes at all happen to the server while we are at it. Mabey raise all the fallen npc's so there is even more of a stagnat feeling on the server. It could become like a bad dream for Kohlingen that repeats itself yearly on the server.

I am quite for it that it is gone from where its gone and would prefer it, if there are enough tiamat followers, to see it rebuild somewhere that you can really build it away from those that would seek its instant destruction, not just say " I shall cast a magic spell, and here it is again". Frozenfar or Forstakkrr come to mind.

I agree with this, for the most part, to be frank. Lets not let Amia be Rome, in other words, a city of historical but otherwise useless buildings and sights allowing no room for growth.

The way see it.. dragons won't liek it very much some where frozen.. yes they will surivie.. but like is soemthing different maybe on another isle speckled over the trackless sea. but yes it current position sort of sucks.

it's not like they will be a lack of dragon kin, Rdd is always an attractive class, we could make it somewhere people can study to become rdd's and unlock the secrets in there distant heritage.

Last edited by Dwagin on Tue, Apr 07 2009, 7:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Wyrmhold is hallowed ground now. Rebuilding it in place seems like a bad idea tactically.

As soon as you start the concept of raising up some destroyed monolith of evil publicly, it's going to draw in entirely too much attention and be nipped in the bud.

In my opinion: Build the faction, then build the faction stronghold, somewhere secret, safe, if you're going to publicly admit to being evil.

We're soon to have a huge evil based area on Amia-B, called the Underdark.

Tarkuul, Zanshibon, Sanctuary of Sin and other above ground areas aren't used anywhere near enough already. What's the point of making more areas when the evilum surfacers just hang out in Cordor or Wiltun anyhow?

Just playing 'devil's advocate'

On the other hand, I'd love for us to have the 9 hells on the server, or even a goodly plane...going off to other planes is a great idea, have the portals well hidden but 'findable'...

Now -that's- what I'd love to see...

Pandemonium anyone?

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:35 PM, edited 2 times in total.

How about the proper abyss? City there. How about the Sanctuary of Sin in the Cordor Underground. I don't see the need for another city at all, tbh.

Last edited by Pony on Tue, Nov 05 2019, 14:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Last edited by Azrael on Tue, Apr 07 2009, 9:10 AM, edited 4 times in total.

Edit: Oh he beat me to the respond

Phearnun wrote:

Perhaps it would be finally nice to have a dark city where more than just one group can be active. A place where there can be roleplay between evil factions, that can make it feel alive. Lets not kid ourselves, Wyrmhold was never very active, it wasnt very pretty either. We had more full blooded devils hang around there as dragon disciples.

In the end the dragon disciples will hang around Cordor anyway as they get lonely again. Make a small city really made for the demented of the demented, add a lot of dark shrines with a feudal hierachy for the lawful evil chaps, then in the slums that are half claimed by the jungles or the simmilar have places for the CE. And dont give it a lame "we are officially neutral and not that bad" style as Tarkuul has. A small piece of hell and the abyss on earth.

The cleregy could have a special role in advising the evil lord, the head of each dark church being permitted to have a council seat for instance. Like an Ultrinnian, only each house is a dark faith or dark faction. Mabey even give them a order, causing strive between them for more influence in the city so the atmosphere does not get stagnant.

I believe this refers to an organized neutral-evil/lawful-evil type city.

...we have unorganized areas of evil (like most of underground Cordor) or an evil area that is specific to one faction.

Don't think we have an organized evil place that isn't specific to one (maby two) faith(s) or group(s). Wiltun could become something like this...possibly...

(not including the Abyss, I don't see plain everyday 'mortals' having much influence there with demons/devils about, and it's not very 'lawful')

Edit: A city like this could help bring together the evils in Amia, so they could accomplish more, the idea of evil politics taking place between factions via the city is just *sage nod* worthy. Evil drow allowed admittance to this 'surfacer' city would also add a whole new political aspect. I'm already drooling over the idea.

Just want to clear some things up that I don't think every understands about the hold.

1. When Drak and Layla made the hold it wasn't supposed to be just for Dragons, they were to be the ruling powers/class but it was more to be a place for evil and meaner neutrals who don't care for the other baddie factions to call home.

2. If it was rebuilt I'd hope for an entirely new interior, more castle like less like grim black lava filled heck hole -.- perhaps with an upper floor, maybe a basement with tunneled dug out by kobolds that link up underground elsewhere.

3. I would never even suggest the idea unless a fair number of players liked the idea of another neutral/evil faction/city state in Amia. I hate stagnation, change is good, I was the one who wanted the flight to die when I left, I have no intention of just pasting and copying old evil plans and old Wyrmhold over the same location.

Azrael wrote:

Edit: Oh he beat me to the respond :o

Phearnun wrote:

Perhaps it would be finally nice to have a dark city where more than just one group can be active. A place where there can be roleplay between evil factions, that can make it feel alive. Lets not kid ourselves, Wyrmhold was never very active, it wasnt very pretty either. We had more full blooded devils hang around there as dragon disciples.

In the end the dragon disciples will hang around Cordor anyway as they get lonely again. Make a small city really made for the demented of the demented, add a lot of dark shrines with a feudal hierachy for the lawful evil chaps, then in the slums that are half claimed by the jungles or the simmilar have places for the CE. And dont give it a lame "we are officially neutral and not that bad" style as Tarkuul has. A small piece of hell and the abyss on earth.

The cleregy could have a special role in advising the evil lord, the head of each dark church being permitted to have a council seat for instance. Like an Ultrinnian, only each house is a dark faith or dark faction. Mabey even give them a order, causing strive between them for more influence in the city so the atmosphere does not get stagnant.

I believe this refers to an organized lawful-evil type city.

...we have unorganized areas of evil (like most of underground Cordor) or an evil area that is specific to one faction.

Don't think we have an organized evil place that isn't specific to one (maby two) faith(s) or group. Wiltun could become something like this...possibly...

(not including the Abyss, I don't see plain everyday 'mortals' having much influence there with demons/devils about, and it's not very 'lawful')

I find myself agreeing with these points.

IC you could never rebuild it in place. It is far to well known and infamous a spot .. you would have every Paladin and do gooder from miles around just to try and put a stop to its reconstruction wether you tried to do it by mundane means or magical.

Having said all that there is no reason why the -ideals- of that place cant live on, it would just have to be in another location and kept a closely guarded secret to those who were a part of it.

Last edited by Azrael on Tue, Apr 07 2009, 8:01 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Athyonn Ursidae wrote:

IC you could never rebuild it in place. It is far to well known and infamous a spot .. you would have every Paladin and do gooder from miles around just to try and put a stop to its reconstruction wether you tried to do it by mundane means or magical.

Having said all that there is no reason why the -ideals- of that place cant live on, it would just have to be in another location and kept a closely guarded secret to those who were a part of it.

I'm actually stirring with the idea of having a formidable evil city that bored good align'd epics can't walk up to and destroy in two seconds, but something formidable that will last on the surface with trade ties to the UD, a city that could stand easier than one specific faction could on it's own, one worthy of the other evil faction's attention, and involvement.

1. Provides a sanctuary of sorts for those being constantly hunted by the bored epics of the 'other alignment'.

2. Provides a place of diverse evils to hang out in casually, and discuss plans/rumors of the surface

3. Provides political aspects and organization of the secret and hidden evil factions, without revealing the locations of the secret organizations themselves.

4. Provides more evil NPC's to work with for DM's, I imagine a black caravan trade operation here quite easily.

5. In case tarkuul, or any other evil faction, ever wanted to to go to war with 'anything remotely good aligned' and have a chance of not being blown to bits on the spot, they have a city to side with...after, some political rp/planning/approvals with the city's government and other evil factions.

6. A place or refuge for evil factions if and when they do get destroyed, so they have a place to go, or possibly even re-located to the city, the local church isn't going to be Tyr after all ^^

7. Being publicly evil won't mean automatic insta-kill all day long anymore.

Should be something the surface city's will have to some extent deal with, so instead of "oh look an evil guy let's kill them!" It becomes..."Oh I wonder if he's a leader in "Insert Name of City's" government, that could be pretty bad if trade operations were closed, or a possible war broke out" (which encourages people to talk to evil align'd people seriously instead of mercilessly hunt them all day)

Then finally a person who is evil-align'd and not looking for a fight can claim an important position such as having a position in the government of the city. (even if they're lying) Then there is a 'actual RP reason' not to kill them on spot for merely being evil, but to actually talk to them or let them walk through a wilderness area peacefully.

Well, there's one simple restriction to an evil city, based on previous experiences: it simply can't be created on Amia island.

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, there's one simple restriction to an evil city, based on previous experiences: it simply can't be created on Amia island.

Ever tried a formidable one?

Take over one instead?

Where are the days that "simple" still meant "easy to understand"?

Magnum Opera wrote:

Take over one instead?

DM's would have to allow the take-over of the city, and just having it returned back to normal 2 days later as a result of hordes of good align'd bored epics isn't what I'm talking about either.

...but that idea is a possibility, one the DM team has to approve of however.

(External trade ties (such as underdark/black caravan/Tarkuul) need to be there to withstand sieges and trade embargo's however)

Last edited by Azrael on Tue, Apr 07 2009, 8:22 AM, edited 1 time in total.

(My first maby second double-post ^^)

Dev Disco wrote:

Where are the days that "simple" still meant "easy to understand"?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/formidable

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/formidable

Formidable...meaning, 'a worthy opponent', or 'not going down easily', something that can hold it's ground but at the same time not take everything else over.

Creating something like a balance of power between good and evil.

So, you suggest that we start building an evil city in some pace that's by definition surrounded by a ton of enemies? It would be squashed before you could erect the scaffolding, unless we do some Deus ex Machina city development.

Azrael wrote:

Magnum Opera wrote:

Take over one instead?

DM's would have to allow the take-over of the city, and just having it returned back to normal 2 days later as a result of hordes of good align'd bored epics isn't what I'm talking about either.

...but that idea is a possibility, one the DM team has to approve of however.

(External trade ties (such as underdark/black caravan/Tarkuul) need to be there to withstand sieges and trade embargo's however)

Mind that a take-over doesn't necessarily need to be a hostile take-over. :wink:

Dev Disco wrote:

So, you suggest that we start building an evil city in some pace that's by definition surrounded by a ton of enemies? It would be squashed before you could erect the scaffolding, unless we do some Deus ex Machina city development.

True making it become a reality requires a reason that keeps the smiter's away. Perhaps it is hidden somehow, or could be a previous existing place that was taken over, perhaps it starts out as a black caravan trade outpost or publicly displayed as another 'good/neutral aligned city' ...when in actuality it is not. Perhaps it even 'does' start out as a neutral/good align'd place but later through RP is taken over and turned evil. (there are quite a few possibilities all requiring plenty of RP to make it become a reality.)

This is to make the justification on an ooc level, especially with the DM team, that yes it would be a good idea for such a place to exist, after the ooc approval people can whole-heartedly RP to make something like it a reality and apart of Amia.

Was Wiltun destroyed since I last logged on?

I admit, I was somewhat surprised to see someone with a guinea pig or DM tag call Wiltun evil ... But it definitely has potential: It's not on Amia making it somewhat defendable. It is a hub (that could be difficult for good aligned people coming to B, though). It is unclaimed as far as I know. It's already in the module and doesn't need any dev time for now. I also see some really evil characters hang out there. And it needs more player love ...

So ... RP to make it more evil? Meet. Plot. Destroy. Giggle.

Regards
Ts

Hehe. I like the Wiltun Tileset. Another Isle in the sea?

No one actually called Wiltun evil, merely suggested it as a possible place where large groups of evil people could eventually gather (as opposed to those that already hang out there who were mentioned as well).

Hrm, as there seems to be more then a few folks who want the hold rebuilt, and Tarkull is a fine evil area on its own, one would have the two linked in some fashion. Akin to a dark Benwick hallow with a the holy grounds of three gods, the biter coast region into the Mylock hills and Wyrmhold could be a region ruled by darkness, given they don't give a damn about weak followers the danger level of near by monsters could go easily unaltered.

I don't want to step on anyones toes and as for the hallowed ground anything holy can be defiled, makes for good evil RP.

The old Hold was drab and never got as much work as I would have liked, I was on Story and other DMs who were there at the time didn't want to up the hold to much for fear of people thinking I was abusing my DM power to get what I wanted -.-.

Anyway if anyone has any understanding of how Drak's mind works he would rather destroy the hallowing with black magic and rebuild stronger then ever to spit in the eye of people who hate him, as for RP Drak is very persuasive convoluted and super villianish and knows how to cur the favor of powers like Cordor by hook or by crook I'm more then happy to put forth effort to the project if enough people want to see it happen.

Azrael wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

So, you suggest that we start building an evil city in some pace that's by definition surrounded by a ton of enemies? It would be squashed before you could erect the scaffolding, unless we do some Deus ex Machina city development.

True making it become a reality requires a reason that keeps the smiter's away. Perhaps it is hidden somehow, or could be a previous existing place that was taken over, perhaps it starts out as a black caravan trade outpost or publicly displayed as another 'good/neutral aligned city' ...when in actuality it is not. Perhaps it even 'does' start out as a neutral/good align'd place but later through RP is taken over and turned evil. (there are quite a few possibilities all requiring plenty of RP to make it become a reality.)

This is to make the justification on an ooc level, especially with the DM team, that yes it would be a good idea for such a place to exist, after the ooc approval people can whole-heartedly RP to make something like it a reality and apart of Amia.

If you think about from the mindset of a man like Drak to survive even thrive when so many foes lay around you is the ultimate sign of strength and power. To raise up the hold from the ashs of ruin and stake a claim as a city state again to weave and manipulate the world into being forced to see it has more value as a trade partner and ally, as a castle and harsh protector of the wilderness, thats the kind of evil he and I live for, it creates moral grey areas and frustrates do-gooders into learning that coming in swords blazing won't stop every kind of bad guy.

So, you're asking the Wyrmhold to be rebuilt for your character?

Cordor be damned - I am quite sure that Kohlingen will see the place burned down regardless of what Cordor wants unless Dorne goes out to defend it himself.
And then he can only butcher the Kohlingers so quickly.

I think that if you want to restart the faction, the rules should apply to you like it is applied to everyone else.

Before actually getting your own area, you need to gather enough people.

If I am not mistaken, in order to have an area for your faction, you need at least 10 ~active~ PCs.

EDIT: Aw, damn! Forgot to make it default colour. ._.

Last edited by Azrael on Tue, Apr 07 2009, 10:58 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Ravenovf wrote:

Azrael wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

So, you suggest that we start building an evil city in some pace that's by definition surrounded by a ton of enemies? It would be squashed before you could erect the scaffolding, unless we do some Deus ex Machina city development.

True making it become a reality requires a reason that keeps the smiter's away. Perhaps it is hidden somehow, or could be a previous existing place that was taken over, perhaps it starts out as a black caravan trade outpost or publicly displayed as another 'good/neutral aligned city' ...when in actuality it is not. Perhaps it even 'does' start out as a neutral/good align'd place but later through RP is taken over and turned evil. (there are quite a few possibilities all requiring plenty of RP to make it become a reality.)

This is to make the justification on an ooc level, especially with the DM team, that yes it would be a good idea for such a place to exist, after the ooc approval people can whole-heartedly RP to make something like it a reality and apart of Amia.

If you think about from the mindset of a man like Drak to survive even thrive when so many foes lay around you is the ultimate sign of strength and power. To raise up the hold from the ashs of ruin and stake a claim as a city state again to weave and manipulate the world into being forced to see it has more value as a trade partner and ally, as a castle and harsh protector of the wilderness, thats the kind of evil he and I live for, it creates moral grey areas and frustrates do-gooders into learning that coming in swords blazing won't stop every kind of bad guy.

It doesn't have to be Wyrmhold, infact I fully expect more than one person to try and make the organized evil city (once the general idea is approved anyway), whether or not you succeed depends on making 'at least' a few alliances with the various evil guilds, PC and NPC alike.

If building...requiring funds, and a way to mask it from the smiters
If taking over a place, requiring careful planning.
If renovating an old place like Wyrmhold...funds, people, rp alliances all still needed.

I also fully expect a few of the people to have their plans foiled through RP (if such and such paladins figure it out and mount a force to blow it to bits or something like that)

The end idea however is not to have one faction dominate the place, but rather requiring several to work together

(if supplies from the underdark for example, best to be on best possible terms with the drow and/or underport ectectect)

Also I wouldn't make the leadership, of the end product, racially restrictive, as wyrmhold was. I would absolutely love if the various evil factions had representatives voice their factions' opinion to the other representatives, and then they debate and vote on what is to be done, this of course probably needs a NPC mayor/parliamentary monarch of the city to help settle ties in the vote or more serious issues that might harm the city. (As each faction still has their own agenda.)

Ravenovf wrote:

Not sure if this is really off topic, but alot of evil folks have been mentioning they would like to see the return of the hold, I posted an IC thing for but I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't mind OCC to see it back that would IC.

Now I hate to bug DMs or ask for somthing not many folks would care about, I was a DM and well I hated to see anything go unused.

So I have to ask, how many people are interested in the return of Wyrmhold as a force of evil and if you are any particular ideas for renovations or new stuff you might have would be welcome as the hard working DM staff can always use player input, ideas and the like as it helps our DMs to not fry their brains thinking up EVERYTHINg on their own.

From an OOC perspective, I wouldn't be displeased at people attempting to rebuild Wyrmhold.

It sort of reminds me of the "ancient evil returning" stuff going on behind the scenes with the necromancer in The Hobbit. Investigators come and either fail or win an apparent victory that merely delays rather than prevents the reconstruction, just like the disguised Sauron being driven out of Mirkwood didn't stop him and shortly afterwards he reveals himself in Mordor.

Then again, I might partially feel this way because I wasn't here when Wyrmhold was around the first time. I can see how people who were here might feel a little disillusioned if the same place keeps getting built over and over again.

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, there's one simple restriction to an evil city, based on previous experiences: it simply can't be created on Amia island.

Dev Disco wrote:

So, you suggest that we start building an evil city in some pace that's by definition surrounded by a ton of enemies? It would be squashed before you could erect the scaffolding, unless we do some Deus ex Machina city development.

This seems pretty unambiguous though, and it would take some deus ex machina (or very competent players or incompetent opposition) to make it happen in spite of the inevitable massive numbers of people who would try to stop the rebuilding before the fortress was rebuilt and harder to dislodge.

The amount of people OOCly wanting Wyrmhold to be rebuilt is not relevant. What happens ICly is relevant.

I got bored...

What is that and why is it covered with red lines?

It's a toolset screenshot of something I made as an alternative, based on my suggestion of another isle ;)

Nekhy wrote:

The amount of people OOCly wanting Wyrmhold to be rebuilt is not relevant. What happens ICly is relevant.

I think we have a winner!

Quote: 'The amount of people OOCly wanting Wyrmhold to be rebuilt is not relevant. What happens ICly is relevant.'

Dare I say that those people that hadn't figured that out the very instant the first post was read have no concept of amia's workings?

Why not just lock this topic, the idea is out not like it needed to. I've been hearing this over and over again for more then a year. And anything to the effect mention on forum is doomed to fail anyway because it's not like goodie players will just ignore reading this. Face it thanks to this it will be atleast three months or more before anything along these lines becomes possible to do again IC.

What's up with the blurry picture. Those top view maps hardly show much of anything and very good luck trying to get away with something that big.

This all is just people stating there personal opinions without much care for what others post anything. Like I often say there is no such thing as discussion in most cases, especially online where distance and lack of direct contact makes people feel godly in their opinions (yes guilty, so don't bother). People just state their own views in post after post and that's it. No point really.

Guess I needed to write this a bit harsh say bitchy if that word pleases. It just seems as pointless as those word association threads on forums.

Yurell wrote:

No one actually called Wiltun evil, merely suggested it as a possible place where large groups of evil people could eventually gather (as opposed to those that already hang out there who were mentioned as well).

Actually, I was referring to Yossarin's and Mr Mago's posts in the Good vs. Evil thread. Yossarin put it in the group of Neutral/Evil places, Mr Mago in the evil group. Mind you, those are their personal opinions, not official statements.

All I'm saying is: You want a bad(TM) town? You want (need) an island? You want a hub? You want all the nice commodities, portals, mythal forge, shops? You want it now? Go to Wiltun. Sure, it could become the new Cordor East, but so far it hasn't and Wiltun doesn't even try to be another "City of Tolerance".

But, I'm offtopic anyway. This thread is about Wyrmhold and it seems like Wyrmhold is dead. I also get the impression, that new areas to start a new faction in are hard to come by when existing ones are not used ...

Regards!
Ts

// edit: Me can't grammar correctly 'n stuff. 1 of 100 edits done.

No locking plz, I already stole the topic and turned it into the...

"Let's have an organized multi-factional evil city to balance Amia, Yayyy!" topic.

..as I too realized the situation of the first post in this thread ^^

Wyrmhold what do you think.

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