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New (?) pickpocket rules
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Author:  Xaviera [ Tue, May 26 2009, 10:56 AM ]
Post subject:  New (?) pickpocket rules
I see that El Pollo Grande has today posted some details on the pickpocketting system in Rules & Lore. Not being too familiar with how it worked, I'm assuming that this is a revamp and not a more detailed posting on the existing system.

I have a few questions about it.

First, there is a bonus to the DC for party members within 6-20 m. What's one tile? 10 m outdoors and 3 m indoors? Do the pickpocketting mods vary with scale distance indoors vs outdoors or not (eg. 20 m being something like 2 tiles outdoors or 6 tiles indoors)?

Second, the list of items that may be taken is:

Quote:
* Items that are equipped cannot be taken.
* Items marked plot or undroppable cannot be taken.
* If a stack is selected for lifting, only one of the stack items will transfer.
* Items over 5 lbs cannot be taken. Items in weight reduction containers are treated like regular inventory for the weight limit.
* Containers cannot be taken, but their contents are treated like normal inventory and one item in the container may be randomly selected.


Does this mean that it is possible to steal epic loot or DC items? I have at least 2 DC items that are less than 5 lbs, not undroppable and that Tristana will pay me 0 gp for (which presumably means they are not plot). Is it possible that I could lose them?
Author:  Dev Disco [ Tue, May 26 2009, 11:12 AM ]
Post subject: 
It's exactly the same as the previous version.
Author:  Kjetta [ Tue, May 26 2009, 11:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New (?) pickpocket rules
Xaviera wrote:
Does this mean that it is possible to steal epic loot or DC items? I have at least 2 DC items that are less than 5 lbs, not undroppable and that Tristana will pay me 0 gp for (which presumably means they are not plot). Is it possible that I could lose them?


This means that they are plot. All (well, 99,99%) DC items are set to plot.

Ioun stones are the source of pickpocket angst, not DC items.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 11:34 AM ]
Post subject: 
Not changed, but PP is nerfed horribly, so if you have basically any spot you should be fine. Unless you're dead.
Author:  Lascivar [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New (?) pickpocket rules
Kjetta wrote:
Xaviera wrote:
Does this mean that it is possible to steal epic loot or DC items? I have at least 2 DC items that are less than 5 lbs, not undroppable and that Tristana will pay me 0 gp for (which presumably means they are not plot). Is it possible that I could lose them?


This means that they are plot. All (well, 99,99%) DC items are set to plot.

Ioun stones are the source of pickpocket angst, not DC items.


Curious, if an Ioun stone is lifted or something of the sort, does the person have an OOC requirement to hand it back? I personally don't have pickpocket, nor do I pay much attention to when I get pickpocketed and my character doesn't notice.

My personal thoughts is that it's acceptable, and people should perhaps invest in Spot to prevent being pickpocketed. From what I know, there's a miniscule chance of an item being lifted from someone, and if they actually do, then kudos to them for sticking to pickpocketing for so long. :P
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:09 PM ]
Post subject: 
As far as I'm aware there is no OOC 'you must hand items back' on PP, otherwise they may as well give it the fixing it deserves and let item bonuses add to it and remove the ability to take items altogether.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:10 PM ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
Curious, if an Ioun stone is lifted or something of the sort, does the person have an OOC requirement to hand it back?


No.

And that's why I think PP should be removed entirely.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:11 PM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
Quote:
Curious, if an Ioun stone is lifted or something of the sort, does the person have an OOC requirement to hand it back?


No.

And that's why I think PP should be removed entirely.


How about you change it so it can't take items instead, and then allow it to act like a normal skill (albeit with a widget)?

Edit: Damn English ambiguity. 'You' was meant to refer to the group / individual who deal with such things, not the person quoted in particular.
Author:  Lascivar [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:13 PM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
Quote:
Curious, if an Ioun stone is lifted or something of the sort, does the person have an OOC requirement to hand it back?


No.

And that's why I think PP should be removed entirely.


Because people don't like having to squeeze Spot into their tumble/UMD dumped builds?

It's base PP vs modified spot. The only time I'd possibly have something against it is if they got an Ioun from a dead person, which I would find amusing, but still a little cruel nonetheless. lol
Author:  Phantom-D [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:14 PM ]
Post subject: 
No

It is because I can't kill them later and steal all their stuff like RP would dictate.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:50 PM ]
Post subject: 
Phantom-D wrote:
No

It is because I can't kill them later and steal all their stuff like RP would dictate.


This: Or:

I dislike any ability that gives a player one-way access to another player's inventory.
Author:  Lascivar [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:54 PM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
Phantom-D wrote:
No

It is because I can't kill them later and steal all their stuff like RP would dictate.


This: Or:

I dislike any ability that gives a player one-way access to another player's inventory.


Then take PP aswell? :P
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 12:56 PM ]
Post subject: 
You're missing the point, methinks. I doubt you'd be happy if I took whatever I liked from your inventory as a DM, and told you an NPC had just pickpocketed your stuff, but if you kill him (and you may do so in one hit), you cannot ever have your stuff back.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 13:01 PM ]
Post subject: 
That is why I call for it to be changed every time this topic pops up.
Author:  Selmak [ Tue, May 26 2009, 14:12 PM ]
Post subject: 
I would say, add Pickpocket to the job system. Then you're not actually taking gold or inventory items, you just get 'Swag' in your inventory and go to a fence to turn it in for cash.

It just seems a no-brainer that if you have all these other jobs which don't cause grief or have a chance for negative XP, the Pickpocket is shafted unless it does fall into line, and/or will spend its time doing those other jobs instead.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 14:14 PM ]
Post subject: 
I've only ever found PP, as it is, useful for looting corpses, so to that effect it is only worth putting one skill point in.
Author:  Dev Disco [ Tue, May 26 2009, 14:31 PM ]
Post subject: 
I wouldn't mind adding it to Thief, and simply make the skill utterly useless.
Author:  Gunz [ Tue, May 26 2009, 15:43 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dooo it! Dooo it! Dooo it!

I have 2 pick pocket characters and I've not used the skill once. I just... don't have the heart to take peoples items they've worked hard to get. I guess I could pick pocket and give it back if I get something though >.>

I like the idea of it being put into the job system though.
Author:  BeautifulLie [ Tue, May 26 2009, 15:55 PM ]
Post subject: 
I dont want to PP npcs if I want to PP I want it to be for the RP. Now that being said i'm content to let PP take -only- gold but im sick of how hard it is for anyone to PP in a crowd or not. THats just completely ridiculous. "Oh look you're in a crowd, theres -alot- of noise and distraction going on but everyone gets -SUPER- boosts to watching their purse!!!" DOesn't make sense alot of thieving occured on crowded busy streets, someone just nicked a hole in your money pouch and you'd never notice.

But at the same time i'm highly against PP spammers that don't RP in the least bit. I had one fellow trying to chase me around and anytime I stood still he just kept spamming and spamming. Sure my spot/listen wasnt high enough to stop him so I told him IC'ly to get out of my personal space. He just kept spamming with the 'Neener neener' attitude and sure enough I smited him. That to me is horrible PP play and not worth it at all.

*end rant*

My votes with Yurrell, change the system so PP's cant touch your items period. Just coins and make the DCs to do so less crazy retarded.
Author:  Wolfking6116 [ Tue, May 26 2009, 20:33 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dev Disco wrote:
I wouldn't mind adding it to Thief, and simply make the skill utterly useless.


Do I get a full rebuild?
Author:  Dwagin [ Tue, May 26 2009, 20:56 PM ]
Post subject: 
Dev Disco wrote:
I wouldn't mind adding it to Thief, and simply make the skill utterly useless.


Leave it for rogue classes.

Make successful picks give 'rewards' based on gold and xp. Equivalent to trap xp.

I suggest perhaps, a level varying cap to the gold. Ergo, a level 5 can't be nicked for more than 250, but a level 30 can be nicked for 10,000.

Also make the skill and gold/xp scale with skill check difference and rogue class level, so someone with more pickpocket skill gains more enticing goodies, and can do something roguish and rogue skill dumpers get no benefit.
Author:  blackvswhite [ Tue, May 26 2009, 21:01 PM ]
Post subject: 
leave it alone. it sucks as it is. don't make it worse.
Author:  StandingBehindYou [ Tue, May 26 2009, 21:12 PM ]
Post subject: 
blackvswhite wrote:
make it worse.


It shouldn't exist.

Dwagin wrote:
Dev Disco wrote:
I wouldn't mind adding it to Thief, and simply make the skill utterly useless.


Leave it for rogue classes.

Make successful picks give 'rewards' based on gold and xp. Equivalent to trap xp.

I suggest perhaps, a level varying cap to the gold. Ergo, a level 5 can't be nicked for more than 250, but a level 30 can be nicked for 10,000.

Also make the skill and gold/xp scale with skill check difference and rogue class level, so someone with more pickpocket skill gains more enticing goodies, and can do something roguish and rogue skill dumpers get no benefit.


That sounds interesting but complicated. For that reason I'd root for Dev Disco's solution, since that has more chance of being implemented.
Author:  DarkAngelGirl [ Tue, May 26 2009, 21:19 PM ]
Post subject: 
If I PPed an ioun stone from someone, I'd feel terrible and end up giving it back. THats just lame.
Author:  Gravemaskin [ Tue, May 26 2009, 21:25 PM ]
Post subject: 
blackvswhite wrote:
leave it alone. it sucks as it is. don't make it worse.

if you can steal ioun stones, even by an off chance.. it's not sucky.
Author:  blackvswhite [ Tue, May 26 2009, 21:52 PM ]
Post subject: 
.001% chance? OVERPOWERED
Author:  Dev Disco [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:02 PM ]
Post subject: 
Ummm... I fail to see the logic in your statements?
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:35 PM ]
Post subject: 
Can someone please give me an answer as to why it can't be changed so ~feats~ including epic ones can e included and the roll and items cannot be taken?
If you're only stealing gold, the main source of angst disappears.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:39 PM ]
Post subject: 
No. Get out of my inventory. Period. I don't care if it's just gold, you have one way access to my inventory. Replace my example above wihth "75% of your total wealth. You are informed your house was robbed/your bag of holding ripped/whatever. The money is GONE."
Author:  The Cobbit [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:41 PM ]
Post subject: 
I mirror Tormak's hate for Pickpocketing.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:41 PM ]
Post subject: 
So out of all your millions someone steals a thousand gold and that's reason to sit down and cry? You lose more if you get unlucky and die in a hunt, even if there is a raise scroll handy.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:44 PM ]
Post subject: 
Yurell wrote:
So out of all your millions someone steals a thousand gold and that's reason to sit down and cry? You lose more if you get unlucky and die in a hunt, even if there is a raise scroll handy.


No, it's, once again, the fact that you have access to my inventory, and you are not a DM. You can waltz in, take what you like, and walk away, and I am unable to do a single thing about it.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:46 PM ]
Post subject: 
If PP is changed to take only gold, how can I steal that Ioun stone 'what you like'?
And since I can only try three times on one person IIRC, the most I could possibly grab is a couple of k, and the instant I fail you will definitely kill me.

And I'm using first person here to allude to the Per, not myself.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:47 PM ]
Post subject: 
Reading comprehension. Can haz it?

Quote:
No, it's, once again, the fact that you have access to my inventory, and you are not a DM. You can waltz in, take what you like, and walk away, and I am unable to do a single thing about it.
Author:  Yurell [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
Exaggeration, using it much?

"Take only gold" =/= "Take what you like"
Author:  blackvswhite [ Tue, May 26 2009, 22:49 PM ]
Post subject: 
yes you can. you're a DM.

if you see someone get seen pickpocketing and the pickpocketer gets killed, they better give it back with a little something extra. If they don't, screenie or get a DM right there.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, May 26 2009, 23:06 PM ]
Post subject: 
Yurell wrote:
Exaggeration, using it much?

"Take only gold" =/= "Take what you like"


Gold is still in my inventory.

Pickpocket gives you access to my money and thus my inventory.

I cannot ever get this back from you, outside your OOC good grace, because unliker you, I am not allowed to see your inventory.
Author:  Ts_ [ Tue, May 26 2009, 23:40 PM ]
Post subject: 
What happened to "roll with the punches"?

As Yurell suggested, you would lose some gp. If you have so much money that you don't notice it, don't complain. If you notice it IC, deal with it IC. If that is impossible for whatever IC reason, don't complain.

If the PPer is causing OOC mess, complain to a DM or put on your own DM hat.

The argument about your inventory ... the PPer wouldn't see it. He wouldn't even know how much money you have. He would simply take a bit of it when successful. You already understood that, I bet.

Of course you can get the gold back with IC means if you catch the thief, and you're not depended on the PPer's OOC good grace. The opposite is true: The PPer, with the current widget, has to depend on your OOC grace not to metagame. Even if that widget would be replaced, you will always know exactly how much gold you lost and when.

Finally, I wouldn't worry so much about people having quite limited interaction with your inventory. They interact with your entire world. If they want to harass you, there are better ways than stealing a little gold from you 3 times / reset.

Yes, I'm aware that PP is a mechanical way to interact with you. "Roll-playing". But only when it is successful it doesn't give you an immediate chance to RP with the PPer. And even on success you can try to make the best out of it a little bit later.

Regards, Ts
Author:  The Incognitos [ Tue, May 26 2009, 23:47 PM ]
Post subject: 
How wussy can we get? It's bad enough for rogues as it is, what with the total lack of high level purchasable goods and crazy listen spot skills everywhere, taking pick pocket as well would really damage the 'classic' rogue image.

If someone is absurdly lucky enough to get an Ioun stone from a pick pocket attempt it can always be turned into an RP situation. It's an absurdly valuable thing to steal and I would guess that many fences would refuse to touch it, to much 'heat'. Start a massive investigation, track it down. They are supposed to be rare after all.

As to the Pick Pocket spammers, inform them that they are now in a 'permanent hostility' situation with you. Have guards list them as wanted criminals. If they are stupid enough to try what is effectively a mugging then let them deal with the consequence, every do-gooder and their dog will be after them.

Removing the concept all together however, would suck. And if it is done, allow rogues and thieves to stage big robberies and actually get away with it once in a while. Getting caught every time must get really frustrating.
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:01 AM ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Incognito and Ts_

As to seeing your inventory, you are going to have to show me this. I have never seen the inside of someone else's inventory besides getting a random (tiny) amount of gold and once an arrow.

And should the PP skill be removed, would everyone who has taken it be getting a rebuild? As this isn't nerfing a skill, it is completely removing it.
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:07 AM ]
Post subject: 
My idea was simply allow all modifiers to affect the check, a gain something like d4 gold for every point you succeed by (and some xp - the exact numbers for either don't really matter). The maximum you could conceivably beat the check by is 130, so that's 520 gold.
That's not much at all.
Author:  Estara [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:13 AM ]
Post subject: 
TormakSaber wrote:
Yurell wrote:
Exaggeration, using it much?

"Take only gold" =/= "Take what you like"


Gold is still in my inventory.

Pickpocket gives you access to my money and thus my inventory.

I cannot ever get this back from you, outside your OOC good grace, because unliker you, I am not allowed to see your inventory.


Hilarious.

But Tormak (and Cobbs??), you two just seem to be upset with PP because it makes you mad and seems unfair. I understand perhaps ioun stones frustrating you, but "direct access to your inventory" itself shouldn't make you so mad? Isn't it like once a reset? If Ioun stones are the reason people are mad, make Ioun stones heavier than 5 lbs? And why do you care if someone takes some insignificant little item once a reset? Maybe it's the principle of it, and if that's it, I guess I just can't sympathize. I don't have any particular attachment to my inventory, except items over 5lbs.

And making ioun stones heavier, that's probably easier than rerouting the whole PP system?
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:17 AM ]
Post subject: 
Estara wrote:
And making ioun stones heavier, that's probably easier than rerouting the whole PP system?


As much as I hate to disagree someone whose supporting my contention, I must say that I think changing PP so that it can only take gold would be better, as it would remove the main grievance, and then we could have feats and items add the necessary skill points to it to actually work.

The main reason it doesn't now as far as I'm aware is because of the risk of stealing someone else's items.
Author:  StandingBehindYou [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:18 AM ]
Post subject: 
The Incognitos wrote:
How wussy can we get? It's bad enough for rogues as it is, what with the total lack of high level purchasable goods and crazy listen spot skills everywhere, taking pick pocket as well would really damage the 'classic' rogue image.


How about this: you can keep pickpocket, but everyone who takes the pickpocket skill can be looted.

I'm sure you would be in favor of that, right?
Author:  The Cobbit [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:21 AM ]
Post subject: 
You would not believe how much grief is caused by PP. It tends to cause way more problems than RP.

If the skill gets killed, and the Job System is amended to incorporate a version that only gives access to small amounts of gold, then fine.
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:21 AM ]
Post subject: 
StandingBehindYou wrote:
The Incognitos wrote:
How wussy can we get? It's bad enough for rogues as it is, what with the total lack of high level purchasable goods and crazy listen spot skills everywhere, taking pick pocket as well would really damage the 'classic' rogue image.


How about this: you can keep pickpocket, but everyone who takes the pickpocket skill can be looted.

I'm sure you would be in favor of that, right?


They can be, so long as you take PP.
Author:  Yurell [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:24 AM ]
Post subject: 
The Cobbit wrote:
You would not believe how much grief is caused by PP. It tends to cause way more problems than RP.

If the skill gets killed, and the Job System is amended to incorporate a version that only gives access to small amounts of gold, then fine.


I'd be fine with tat, so long as everyone who took PP got a rebuild - it's not fair them having a skill that has been utterly removed, or conversely having to use job points just to use a skill.

For the record, I am not including myself in the characters who need a rebuild, having only one rank in PP on one of my chars, so it's not a selfish desire.
Author:  Jan [ Wed, May 27 2009, 0:47 AM ]
Post subject: 
Pickpocketing is a DnD skill... duh. The NWN version might be broken, arguing against rogues stealing stuff is plain wrong.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Wed, May 27 2009, 1:06 AM ]
Post subject: 
Estara wrote:
TormakSaber wrote:
Yurell wrote:
Exaggeration, using it much?

"Take only gold" =/= "Take what you like"


Gold is still in my inventory.

Pickpocket gives you access to my money and thus my inventory.

I cannot ever get this back from you, outside your OOC good grace, because unliker you, I am not allowed to see your inventory.


Hilarious.

But Tormak (and Cobbs??), you two just seem to be upset with PP because it makes you mad and seems unfair. I understand perhaps ioun stones frustrating you, but "direct access to your inventory" itself shouldn't make you so mad? Isn't it like once a reset? If Ioun stones are the reason people are mad, make Ioun stones heavier than 5 lbs? And why do you care if someone takes some insignificant little item once a reset? Maybe it's the principle of it, and if that's it, I guess I just can't sympathize. I don't have any particular attachment to my inventory, except items over 5lbs.

And making ioun stones heavier, that's probably easier than rerouting the whole PP system?


It IS unfair. If you pickpocket anything from my inventory, it is gone. I can't get it back. Ever. Ever ever ever. Unless you decide to be nice OOC and give it back. If joe schmuck level 3 logs in, pickpockets whatever, and logs off and never comes backj, that item is gone. Why? Because you had one way access to my inventory, without my permission, to take whatever the system would give you, and I have no wya of getting it back except by your permission.

This is a one way road and it doesn't work.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Wed, May 27 2009, 1:08 AM ]
Post subject: 
Yurell wrote:
StandingBehindYou wrote:
The Incognitos wrote:
How wussy can we get? It's bad enough for rogues as it is, what with the total lack of high level purchasable goods and crazy listen spot skills everywhere, taking pick pocket as well would really damage the 'classic' rogue image.


How about this: you can keep pickpocket, but everyone who takes the pickpocket skill can be looted.

I'm sure you would be in favor of that, right?


They can be, so long as you take PP.


No. This is stupid. I don't need to be a trained cutpurse to gut you like a fish and walk away with your magic bags full of loot.

The next time my PC kill you, I will log DMside, take everything that you have equipped, and give it to my PC. If you complain, I will ignore you and say I earned it with my character's skills.

This is what pickpocket does, at its most basic., It allows you to take other character's and player's gold and items without their consent, without their permission, anytime you'd like, with no chance for REAL retribution. Dying IC is nothing. Why? Because you still got their stuff.
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