I've recently thought establishing the harpers on Amia. I'm not sure if there is anyone who is harper yet, but if you're interested please tell.

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Favorite char that I am currently playing:
-Roxy Brenan: Super-hot half-elf chick that like to dance.
-Lilly Thiend: Cleric of torm, and a flirt.
-Allison Rosalie Wen- Anthropologist and sorceress.

"Don't feed the DMs"

Well, I am sure the Harpers, if they exist on Amia, won't reveal their identity or existance OOC, let alone IC. In the Realms, it's often been true that "you don't call the Harpers, the Harpers call you." I imagine it'd apply on Amia, too.

Starting actual Harper PCs is a bit problematic, because it requires NPC interaction by default: you need the approval of several senior Harpers before you're admitted into the ranks, and as such, you could say it falls within the realm of DM approval. You can always claim to be Harpers IC, of course.

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meh. Probably a better idea to make up a whole new faction :/\

I'm tool lazy for that. never mind. :/

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Favorite char that I am currently playing:
-Roxy Brenan: Super-hot half-elf chick that like to dance.
-Lilly Thiend: Cleric of torm, and a flirt.
-Allison Rosalie Wen- Anthropologist and sorceress.

"Don't feed the DMs"

ah bah, just guess who the harpers are. it's obvious! well maybe not so much now since amia has been "tradgey" free for a while

The Harpers do exist on Amia. That's all I'm saying.

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Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

Harpers? Bunch of good for nothing layabouts whom can't keep their nose out of other people's business!

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

Harpers are just a tale, nothing you should worry your mind with!

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

I've always wanted to play a Harper character, but I've never seen anything even hinting at their existence on Amia. Are they really that super secret?

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Born to a [wealth level] family, you spent your early years doing [early activity] in [town type]. Your father was [father status], while your mother was [mother status]. You left your homeland at the age of [chosen age], seeking [reason for leaving].

Maybe just post that you are interested in joining and ask for one of them to contact you in a pm.

Really though, I don't see why they are kept so hush hush occ. IC, I get it, it's how it's supposed to be, but is it really necessary to keep the faction so secret from players? RP them in secrecy but make the faction itself more open, or at least contactable on an OCC level.

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Each faction chooses how they want to be contactable. Some factions (Sharrans, high up Banites, Cyricists) feel that having names out OOCly opens them up to metagaming, to the point where they even maintain their forums offsite.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

That is very true. I am completely for keeping all secrecy. In fact, I would love it if the player list at character loggin was blocked! Just the class and number of levels. It would keep away so much unconcious metagaming. One could easily spot all Harpers simply by looking at the list a few times. Then they'd know who to RP with and who to avoid, using whatever RP excuses. I'm not saying many do this. But it cannot be denied that some do.

Anyway, all secrets must be kept! There are crafty ways of finding out how to reach them IC.

I half agree. Secery ICly and even OOCly is needed. However, there is limits to secrecy. Being able to contact people, and being aware of RP taking place is something that should also be happenig. Because sometimes secercy can lead to elitest RP. Meaning that people will keep to the group, never let others get involved, and always RP with each other.

The Harpers may be secert organization. But they are known by the general populace to exist. So the ability to know ICly of there existance would be nice, as well as OOCly, a way to contact them.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Harpers are stupid anyway. I blame Elminster for that.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

I'm all for secretive Factions and characters, both IC and OOC. One thing though, about secretive factions: I think they should have a DM post something about how to contact them so others have a shot at joining, if they're looking for them but can't find them. When they don't do that, you have what the Sharran resorted to a while back: Make a fake forum account and openly ask for members. Just my two cents anyway.

Not to mention, it's kinda unfair when some idols are hidden and only their secret faction gets to see it and use it. Why would you have to ask them permission to be what you are? That's lame. If the idol of Silvanus was only found in the Grove, that doesn't mean only Grovies and those allowed in the Grove can be Silvanites. You don't need mortal permission to be a faithful to said god. Why is it that way with certain gods on Amia?

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

You don't, alot of people fail to read that as long as you fill the deity field at creation, you get that deity with no idol needed.

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IMO, an OOC method of contacting a faction is metagaming. I've always maintained that there really should NOT be OOC communication at all in any way whatsoever, because almost anything you would ever need another player to know you can do through IC dialogue, IC emote, or IC story. Along that same line, I think that finding out who may be a Sharran or a Harper or a Spy from Another Dimension should require you to actually take a real RISK and find out IC rather than take the pussy's safe way out and have a means of uncovering it purely OOC.

You want to know if there are Sharrans? You have to take the risk and ask that suspicious dude over there, whom you have been watching for six months, and who exhibits what you might consider to be Sharran tendencies, whether you can get involved in the Sharran cell...

If he turns out to be Sharran and lets you in, hoorah.
If he turns out to be Sharran and kills you for asking too much, hoorah!
If he turns out to be not a Sharran and sells you out for your interest, hoorah!
If he turns out to be not a Sharran and he murders you for apparently being one yourself, hoorah!

No one wants to take these risks. You all just want to ~know~ without ever having to work at it or possibly suffer for gaining the knowledge.

Yoss,
*clap, clap, clap*
Maglorine

Note: emoted sincerely

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Ah the joys of Espionage..

Seriously, I understand both sides of this but for the most part, advocate sticking to IC means to trying to contact Sharrans.

HAHAHAH!! AHHH HAHAHAHAHA!

(i agree)

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Jess Incognito:- Ah, but the phoenix may fly only when its feathers are grown...

Olaf Grudgebringer: Stroppy Cleric or Morradin

Krunk (Underdark): Stay back! He's a bit mad.

the_incognitos@live.com

Well sure, if you have hours upon hours to spend on Amia, that's all fine and dandy. Not everyone has hours to spend trying to find and follow people, etc.

I don't see how having a way of setting something up with a faction you might be interest in is any more "metagaming" than using the party ball for hunting groups.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Also, I don't think one -needs- to be connected with other Harpers on the server to be a Harper. Perhaps they are on a secret mission from the mainland? Sure, meet up with other ones if you can, but I don't think you'd be limited on what you want to do just because you can't find other Harpers.

Though, I could be wrong. I can understand if this isn't allowed so there aren't 50 Harpers runing around.

You people have made me think.

[dark lord sauron voice]I shall now do what i have been thinking about and not reveal it to anyone! I shall make the one character! THE ONE CHARACTER TO RULE THEM ALL![/dark lord sauron voice]

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Favorite char that I am currently playing:
-Roxy Brenan: Super-hot half-elf chick that like to dance.
-Lilly Thiend: Cleric of torm, and a flirt.
-Allison Rosalie Wen- Anthropologist and sorceress.

"Don't feed the DMs"

It is horrible to have ooc information lead to an uncovering of a character, but the problem like most servers is that you can't kill that character who finds out, not many would agree to "if i kill you, your forget I'm sharren" they go tell there freiends ooc.. and it's still out, secret factions just don't work very often. but they are fun while they last, least I had my fun for three years before being uncovered, and I never had since that character to give out secretive information.. rped her hiding it away in her mind to never be uncovered ever again.

Secret faction threads always encourage the make death harsher debate threads.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

They're better than the Zhentarim!

Just like Waterdeep is better than Cormyr and Haluraa is better than Thay.

*sets the Iron bait*

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Secret factions need to have a DM liaison, listed in the Lore forum together with an entry for the faction in question, for a couple of reasons.

The first should be made obvious by this thread, and I have had direct experience of the same thing happening - a secretive faction that has existed on Amia for a decent amount of time suddenly finding a new group of people starting the same faction on the grounds they don't know it exists (and worse, being anything but secret about it and ignoring the lore covering Race, Class, Alignment and religion).

Another very clear need for DM liaisons is in faction plots which will very often have something to do with infiltrating another group (be it NPC or PC) or doing one thing overtly as a cover for something covert.

(There was another reason, but I forgot what it was)

I think members of such factions should face the same obstacles as players that want some of the widgets available (some of the Bard Songs or the Book of Vile Rituals for example) but with a two-tiered process.

The first part means coming to the forum and finding out who the DM liaison is for the given faction, we'll say Harpers, and then sending a PM, or ingame /tell, to that DM indicating your desire to become a member.

The Harpers, and at least two other secretive factions I can think of, have special items in PnP that are used to identify other members. In the case of the Harpers they have two different items that have similar functions, but one is for "trusted friends and relatives" (often given to the children of Harper agents), while the other is for members. I can't off the top of my head recall the exact attributes of these Harper Pins (I think that they both give a Will Save bonus), but their function is to, when activated, glow in the presence of each other indicating that the person you have just met is a Harper.

Once a player has contacted the DM liaison and done an initial quest/task the DM gives them the "minor" version of the faction item and, behind the scenes, contacts the leadership of the relevant faction to let them know that there is a new PC seeking membership. Whether the DM tells the leadership the name of the person or simply orchestrates a supervised meeting is up to them. What happens next is the same as getting the Many Faces widget - the leadership RPs with the new potential member and if they and the DM are satisfied that they have been successful they are awarded the full widget and all the benefits being a member of such faction should enjoy. The added benefit of doing things this way is that current faction members, in this case Harpers, can observe the PC trying to gain admission for a number of weeks if they wish, before that person is awarded the full widget.

Of course, due to the nature of a secret faction, if a DM witnesses the player doing something stupid like blabbing about being a Harper, and who else is one, in the middle of Cordor East that item can be immediately removed. It could maybe even be replaced with a "Fall" widget that lets other Harpers know who they are but doesn't let the fallen Harper know.

I also think that members of certain factions should be required to prove they are at least passingly familiar with the lore of the faction (which means reading more than the 1-2 paragraphs supplied on a wiki), and that no player may have a character in any faction specifically opposed to the one they wish to join (for example, no player may have one character in the Harpers and another in the Zhentarim, even if one character is no longer active), unless it is part of an infiltration plot.

Finally, and no offence is intended by this, I would much rather see, and think it would be far more beneficial for Amia, players being encouraged to join canon factions than all these "Faction Concept" threads (although some of those concepts actually are canon groups).

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

Factions run themselves, Sokar. If any faction needs a "DM liaison" for anything, they're free to contact us about it. We don't tell them how to run their factions or demand that they open themselves up to metagaming.

Harper Pins don't do any of the things you stated, btw. They do +5 saves vs mind effecting, immunity to scrying, immunity to mind READING, immunity to electricity. They don't react to Harpers but anyone of evil alignment who tocuhes one causes the pin to turn black and the pin begins to screech out harsh noises, "as if a harp was being savagely beaten", quote Code of the Harpers.

EDIT:

And there's no need for a 'liaison' for this. It's directly handled by the DM running the plot in the first place.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I think I agree with Yossarin. Keep it -all- IC. If someone wants to say, desperately be a sharran, they'll eventually get known by the sharrans and likely approached.

Just like real life, just because you want to be an SAS soldier in your dreams, doesn't mean in reality, you're the right person or even likely ever be in a position to be one.

Having said that people who are Zhents or Sharrans aren't anything better than say, a Red Wizard or Triadic Knight, they just operate in a much more hidden way. Likely you'll never know you're talking to one, whilst with a Triadic Knight, you can all stand in a line and say, "look at me mum!".

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

First thing about being a harper. Don't talk about being a harper. Second thing about being a harper. Don't Talk About Being A Harper.

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Character Status:
Mynna- Guldorand
Samrael Cymere-Winya Ravana
Laika-Unknown

That's more Moonstar style honestly. the village of berdusk, and Twilight Hall specifically, is a basically public Harper *fortress*. Shadowdale is notable too.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

However, since Harpers have such a reputation for being so incredibly secret, it would make sense to run around saying, "Hey everyone, I'm a Harper!" because everyone would think that someone that stupid couldn't possibly be a real Harper. Thus allaying all suspicion.

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Born to a [wealth level] family, you spent your early years doing [early activity] in [town type]. Your father was [father status], while your mother was [mother status]. You left your homeland at the age of [chosen age], seeking [reason for leaving].

Unless of course they realized that Harpers are incredibly cunning and clever and would most certainly utilize social HIPS in that manner, so I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of me...

But the Harpers would know that people would figure that they're extremely clever, and thus pretend to not be Harpers who aren't pretending to be Harpers. Which would mean that people would figure that they ARE Harpers not pretending to not be Harpers, so the Harpers would not pretend to not be a Harper who's not pretending to not be one. Only not.

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Born to a [wealth level] family, you spent your early years doing [early activity] in [town type]. Your father was [father status], while your mother was [mother status]. You left your homeland at the age of [chosen age], seeking [reason for leaving].

Harpers blend in where they must, puff up and act overtly as they must, and do what needs doing to serve Good ..

A Harper Token (pp. 66-67 Champions of Valor) is used to identify other Harpers and typically, though not always, glows when it comes in contact with another Harper item (Pin or other Token).

Easy mistake to get the names mixed up, especially when a token is used in conjunction with a Pin.

And I didn't mean that a DM liaison would run a faction - that's not what liaison means. I meant that the DM is the insulating layer between the secret faction and those wanting membership.

The main problem with secret groups is this -

You want to be a member of Secret group X.

Secret Group X is a secret, therefore you cannot find out who is a member of Secret Group X because anyone who reveals they are a member of Secret Group X is a liability to the Group.

Likewise, if you are to be considered for admission to Secret Group X you cannot ever make mention that you even know about them, let alone that you want to join them because you are not acting in a secret manner suitable to the Group.

You have a secret interest in joining a secret group whose members are secret... Find out IC! Right...

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"Where's my pony?"
"I'm sorry, baby, I had to feed that pony to a dragon."
"Oh. Whose horse is this?"
"It's a Warhorse, baby."
"Whose Warhorse is this?"
"Zed's"
"Who's Zed?"
"Zed's dead, baby. Zed's dead."

On the contrary, I'm possibly more or less not definitely rejecting the idea that in no way with any amount of uncertainty that I undeniably do or do not know where they shouldn't probably be, if that indeed isn't where they aren't, even if they aren't where I knew they weren't...

Actually, depending on what you do, how you handle yourself and who you associate yourself with.. you might be pulled into it.

A good recent movie to give ideas of how this sort of thing can work out for those interested, is "50 Dead Men Walking." .. Look it up. ^_^

Shrek ripoff! Thats Pinocchio's line! I call shenanigans! Fire alert! Whee-woo-whee-woo!
.....
Eh *cough* ahem... What i meant to say was... I agree with Sokar.

EDIT: Minor typos

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--MAINS--
Xanon .: Talonite!
Xiladei .: Amethyst Dragon Disciple.
Ryth .: Returning Elven Archer. Missing for some time.

It works for at least 3 factions currently on Amia. And if it did not, it is still their perogative to choose on their own how they recruit members.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Somebody brought up a good point. Can I make a harper (sharran, etc) without having to join the Amia harpers?

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Same as:

Can I make another faction called "Triadic Knights"? or, Can I make another faction of the Banites or House Baenre.

If it already exists, you'd need a damn good reason to be stealing the same name on an OOC faction level.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

You don't need Darths permission to follow bane, or Yastons to serve the triad. Harpers are not an amian thing, they are an existing group from core lore. You should be able to make a harper scout from the mainland really, seeing as the amian harpers are not the authority on harperdoom. You can't steal their faction because it's not theirs to begin with.

I would like a DM to answer though.

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Hey, remember when we had that secret faction once, and then some blabber mouth metagamed it? Yea, that was fun...

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Difference between Faiths and Factions is that faiths is simply your character's patron deity. Character chosen, etcetera.

Factions wise, however, entails involvement into an established (if not utilized) faction; complete with NPC considerations to be made. Thus, you'd need DM confirm at the least were you to make a Harper out of the blue, especially given the faction's own specifics.

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Mostly Retired

My own belief that factions have taken an OOC tendency to their recruting is metagaming issues over the years, where players who where heavily involved in faction RP where exposed when they should not have been.

Players of secret factions are always putting there characters at risk for even minimal interactions, such as disguises used in assassinations or abductions to secret bases. Players retain the knowledge OOC and the characters are not supposed to IC and overlapping of the two occures frequently in the playerbase.

If amia was a hardcore server I think we would have the same problem, there is no way around metagaming this is not real life and as a fantasy setting with various means of contact outside the game OOC information will always be passed over somehow someway.

Then we have the aspect of that in the realms the secret motives of gods, alliances between factions are not always known and yet on amia every character that walks around seems to know every last detail. Amia is not exactly a realistic server in regard to the realms and as such things on the server play out differently to what would be expected. Which is why some factions partake in doing things very selectively for even a hint of exposure could destroy every last one of them.

On another note,

I do not believe the DM team needs to partake as liasons there work load is large enough and if you look hard enough (use the search button) you will more than likely find postings made by new leaders for contact information to factions your interested in.

Or if you wish to do things on an IC level, there are more than enough places on Amia that are seedy enough and for a fee will tell you what you need to know.

Regards
Craig

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM

Duh, you maroon, that was established in the post just prior to that. Can you identify that reference, as well?



Yes, I've watched it work and work well. It is entirely possible for a secret faction to be found out, but it takes a special kind of person with the right kind of dedication. Some of you have it, most of you don't.

This is very true, espically the recuiting oocly. It is a HUGE problem with factions, and it makes it very very annoying for those of us who legitally recruit.

The War Knights have such low numbers for example, because we recruit characters from the PC populace. Where as certain other factions have sprung up over night with epic levels members, which is a blatant show of OOC recruiting. I personally find it very unfair, and I'd like to see people punished for it.

Oocly agreeing to create a character, then doing it from scratch, with the intention to join a faction is fine IMHO, but having your epic level you never use anymore join a faction because someone OOCly asked you is plain lame. IMHO, if you do it, you should be punshed.

(Correct me if I took your comment wrong Craig, I was a little confused.)

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

OOC recruitment come in many forms, one in which you mentioned and another in the form of players being OOC screened before they are recruited to find any mishaps with the player not the character. For instance players who have a reputation for metagame or simply breaking server rules, these players are not ones you want within your faction .

Some factions recruit entirely on an OOC level through socail networks while others feel oblidged to protect themselves on an OOC level. I wouldnt go as far to say any of it is wrong, for players to work well with each other and maintain a faction OOC familiarity has to exist otherwise problems can arise down the line.

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM