AMIA ARCHIVE :: View topic - Players metagaming merchants and guards

I can't stand when/if people immediately try to jump to the "You can't do that, because that NPC guard which is completely unrelated to my character, standing 40 feet away looking in the other direction, would totally come and help me beat you or tell you to stop!"

Mr Mago wrote:

chances are they ~would~ tell you to stop, if they were anything more than a complex polygon in armor. it is their job to tell you to stop. thats what they do. they keep the peace in cities. would you rough a guy up with a cop sitting on the park bench across the street? if you would, you aren't very intelligent. if a cop is across from you at an intersection, do you run the red light? hell no. you get punished.

the guards aren't there to chill as decoration. they are there to get some action on petty criminals who rough people up in cordor square. if they are facing the other way, its because they can't move on their own. a guard is vigilant, not chill.

blackvswhite wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Did you read the rest of my post?

Cordor Square is entirely different from the stuff I was talking about.

And more so... how many NPC guards would want to risk their lives in getting involved in a conflict outside of their jurisdiction and responsibilities, against well known and infamous villains such as Darthion, Frey, Vaylek, Va etc etc?

Some NPC guards might. But in the instances which I described, that's at the discretion of the DMs to decide. Not the players.

Yeah.

"Sound the Alarm!"

"Call the Law Knights! Call the Adventurer Guard!"

.. Etc.

Don't even go there.

TormakSaber wrote:

Don't even go there.

But...

In Underport, Mindflayers with mind control and lots of guards means NO fights can even start I'd think? Dunno...

soundofastream wrote:

In Underport, Mindflayers with mind control and lots of guards means NO fights can even start I'd think? Dunno...

*cough*

Well even in Cordor I could see some shady and corrupt guards, especially in the more shady part of the city like south Cordor. Guards that could be paid off to look the other way. South Cordor I think has too many NPC guards as is, shouldn’t it be more run by gang leaders and crooks rather then by the guards?

Merchants I guess it would depend more on the merchants shops where they are more concerned with any damage that can be caused if a fight broke out, like the inns they would say take it outside while just a shop they would turn a blind eye as long as no dame is caused or harm is done to them, perhaps even a bribe to be blind and dumb after the fact.

Underport I could see them getting involved only if it gets too out of hand that would ruin business, even to the point of snagging up the loser of some fight themselves to sell on the slave market there. Remember you can not take modern day RL instances as the way things would be on Amia, it’s a totally different word with different moral concepts.

Acually at one time there were NO guards in South Cordor.....and the Black Flag, a player run mafia style faction, ran South Cordor......ahhh, I loved those days....and yeah we pretty much did those things you mentioned....along with some larceny, muggings, robberies, and murders...lol

Yeah...we'd make them pay a "Fee" for strolling through Cordor.....it was a pithy fee but..heh it was fun shaking people for fifty gold pieces each...lol

Geld Yaztran wrote:

Yeah...we'd make them pay a "Fee" for strolling through Cordor.....it was a pithy fee but..heh it was fun shaking people for fifty gold pieces each...lol

Yeah, until the FLAG and other renegade groups in the South pushed too far and.. well, we come to our state today.

It's sort of like what happened to Times Square. Sure it looks pretty now, but people will never admit they miss the wall to wall porno.

Simple fact is that if there's no DM to possess the NPC and it's not a faction area which have a strict no meta rule already all you can do is roll with the RP and take a screenie if you want to protest after the fact. That or you can whine like a child and then log out and sulk about it. Without a clear rule in place it is a case by case thing that only a DM can judge on

soundofastream wrote:

In Underport, Mindflayers with mind control and lots of guards means NO fights can even start I'd think? Dunno...

*cough*

Author:	beciv [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 1:11 AM ]
Post subject:	Players metagaming merchants and guards
I know there are a lot of people out there that believe trying to intimidate and shake down characters in the wilderness is fun RP...But when the same people try to do the same RP within a city it is even more lame. There are guards or merchants that would call on guards if it was a real world situation. I find it very funny that a person willing to metagame the guards or merchants has the nerve to send other people tells complaining about them ignoring his RP when the players did not ignore the RP in any way but flat out stated in an emote that the character is ignoring the actions of the other player and in fact ask the merchant to do something about the "Riff - Raff" In it's shop.

Author:	Mobile_Svensk [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 1:14 AM ]
Post subject:
I dont get your point. What are you trying to put forth? Should we change something? Is this a specific event?

Author:	Mr. Hackums [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 1:43 AM ]
Post subject:
I think its safe to assume most people understand that "Shaking someone down" in front of a guard is a no go, the point being merchants should also be included? You cant assume they'll tell the guards to come- What if I'ze an EPICK Character, wit' Zewp Intimidates? He'd freeze in his tracks! Or that, he might just draw his magical little wand thingy and blast you all away? MY point being that we cant really determine the IC reaction of a merchant. There's a perfectly legitimate set of reasonings for every situation, (And we wont get into specifics, Uh-huhs). Though, avoiding RP around all NPC's is just folly, but still be careful. It never hurts to ask for a DM to come control the merchant for a moment, or something?

Author:	Mr Mago [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 2:41 AM ]
Post subject:
I can't stand when/if people immediately try to jump to the "You can't do that, because that NPC guard which is completely unrelated to my character, standing 40 feet away looking in the other direction, would totally come and help me beat you or tell you to stop!". Flat out ignoring NPC guards within a settlement, that -would- assist a specific individual (Bendir Dale militia assisting resident hins close to the dale or within it, Winya Guard assisting a resident elf at the Nexus Falls or within Winya, etc)... is, however... bad. And clearly against the rules. But that's nothing new. Also. If you're the one stirring up shit, causing trouble or picking fights... then why would some random guard assist you? I used to get that quite a lot in Amia Forest. Where elves who weren't part of the Grove, would bitch and pick fights with my characters, and then OOCly respond that I was metagaming the guards as my character kicked their ass for it. // End of rant >.<

Author:	blackvswhite [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 3:04 AM ]
Post subject:
Mr Mago wrote: I can't stand when/if people immediately try to jump to the "You can't do that, because that NPC guard which is completely unrelated to my character, standing 40 feet away looking in the other direction, would totally come and help me beat you or tell you to stop!" chances are they ~would~ tell you to stop, if they were anything more than a complex polygon in armor. it is their job to tell you to stop. thats what they do. they keep the peace in cities. would you rough a guy up with a cop sitting on the park bench across the street? if you would, you aren't very intelligent. if a cop is across from you at an intersection, do you run the red light? hell no. you get punished. the guards aren't there to chill as decoration. they are there to get some action on petty criminals who rough people up in cordor square. if they are facing the other way, its because they can't move on their own. a guard is vigilant, not chill.

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Author:	RigorIYIortis [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 3:18 AM ]
Post subject:
Perhaps the guards should be scripted to attack anyone with a weapon drawn after their second warning, or when spellcasters start unleashing spells in public. This of course means they'd also have to be scripted to stop fist fights...seems like a lot of work for something that should be a no-brainer.

Author:	Mr Mago [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 3:23 AM ]
Post subject:
blackvswhite wrote: Mr Mago wrote: I can't stand when/if people immediately try to jump to the "You can't do that, because that NPC guard which is completely unrelated to my character, standing 40 feet away looking in the other direction, would totally come and help me beat you or tell you to stop!" chances are they ~would~ tell you to stop, if they were anything more than a complex polygon in armor. it is their job to tell you to stop. thats what they do. they keep the peace in cities. would you rough a guy up with a cop sitting on the park bench across the street? if you would, you aren't very intelligent. if a cop is across from you at an intersection, do you run the red light? hell no. you get punished. the guards aren't there to chill as decoration. they are there to get some action on petty criminals who rough people up in cordor square. if they are facing the other way, its because they can't move on their own. a guard is vigilant, not chill. Did you read the rest of my post? Cordor Square is entirely different from the stuff I was talking about. And more so... how many NPC guards would want to risk their lives in getting involved in a conflict outside of their jurisdiction and responsibilities, against well known and infamous villains such as Darthion, Frey, Vaylek, Va etc etc? Some NPC guards might. But in the instances which I described, that's at the discretion of the DMs to decide. Not the players.

Author:	The Incognitos [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 3:56 AM ]
Post subject:
Mr Mago wrote: blackvswhite wrote: Mr Mago wrote: I can't stand when/if people immediately try to jump to the "You can't do that, because that NPC guard which is completely unrelated to my character, standing 40 feet away looking in the other direction, would totally come and help me beat you or tell you to stop!" chances are they ~would~ tell you to stop, if they were anything more than a complex polygon in armor. it is their job to tell you to stop. thats what they do. they keep the peace in cities. would you rough a guy up with a cop sitting on the park bench across the street? if you would, you aren't very intelligent. if a cop is across from you at an intersection, do you run the red light? hell no. you get punished. the guards aren't there to chill as decoration. they are there to get some action on petty criminals who rough people up in cordor square. if they are facing the other way, its because they can't move on their own. a guard is vigilant, not chill. Did you read the rest of my post? Cordor Square is entirely different from the stuff I was talking about. And more so... how many NPC guards would want to risk their lives in getting involved in a conflict outside of their jurisdiction and responsibilities, against well known and infamous villains such as Darthion, Frey, Vaylek, Va etc etc? Some NPC guards might. But in the instances which I described, that's at the discretion of the DMs to decide. Not the players. Agree... I've been told regularly that this is a medieval setting... I try to remember that. Bear that in mind when dealing with regular Guards. The Law Knights are called out to deal fighting adventurers... the regular flatfoot cops are there for pick pockets and drunks. Not someone who could level a city block if the fancy took them. They wouldn't run in weapons drawn... they'd run to the barracks to get a law knight. Merchants would be thinking something like "go outside go outside go outside go outside go outside etc...'. So expect someone to show up for real dangerous violence... but a little bit of inconspicious threatening would likely skip their attention.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 3:58 AM ]
Post subject:
Or you could not tell the DMs how to play their Cordor NPCs?

Author:	Grymia [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 4:10 AM ]
Post subject:
Yeah. Honestly, while seeing Frey or Darthion might prompt panic, it would likely also prompt the following, and I quote in essence coughs "To arms! To arms!" "Sound the Alarm!" "Call the Law Knights! Call the Adventurer Guard!" .. Etc.

Author:	Geld Yaztran [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 4:33 AM ]
Post subject:
Honestly I think only the authorities should be the important aspect. Merchants would honestly NOT get involved. As much as it ruins business, their business would be even more ruined if said merchant dies, which would prompt them to keep their mouths shut. Have we not, even in real life, found instances where someone was attacked and everyone around remained quiet and said not a thing? This has actually happened more times than any person would like to admit. As for guards and law knights, it would be a different story. It's their job to intervene. They picked the job probably for that reason. Guards would stick up for you, but as for merchants who want mainly to stay out of others business and mind their own? I doubt they'd be willing to throw their lives away to assist some stranger they may never see again...from being robbed. They may even keep quiet as to not risk their lives and join the victim in death/robbery/etc.

Author:	joie de vivre [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 4:33 AM ]
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"Take pictures! Use the Gnomish Camera! Darthy, gimme a pose!" But yeah, having been a victim of a Wail of the Banshee in a city, I must say I support the no-fighting-in-cities-with-big-police-forces

Author:	The Incognitos [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 4:39 AM ]
Post subject:
Grymia wrote: Yeah. "Sound the Alarm!" "Call the Law Knights! Call the Adventurer Guard!" .. Etc. This is what I was getting at... I believe it was you that told me to expect that reaction Tormak.

Author:	Grymia [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 4:45 AM ]
Post subject:
Again: "Call the Guard!" Or some similar reaction is JUST as possible of a merchant, if not moreso.

Author:	Herra Tutteri [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 8:43 AM ]
Post subject:
Party PvP Cordor back! Woo! A toi toi!

Author:	ainjyll [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 15:11 PM ]
Post subject:
In my mind, if a player is knowingly engaging as the aggressor in any type of RP that may cause the guards to become involved, they should contact a DM before proceeding. Then the conversation may turn into: Character A: Give me all your money! Character B: // You can't do that, you're metagaming the guards. DM-possessed guard: coughs and turns his back to the pair It just makes sense to me for the instigator in shady or questionable activities to be the one to contact a DM and ensure surveillance.

Author:	Herra Tutteri [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 7:03 AM ]
Post subject:
Mr Mago wrote: I can't stand when/if people immediately try to jump to the "You can't do that, because that NPC guard which is completely unrelated to my character, standing 40 feet away looking in the other direction, would totally come and help me beat you or tell you to stop!" Such is life. I've got to live by it, you've got to live by it. Sometimes I did wonder that maybe he had time to smash some loudmouthed necro's head before the guards got to him, but for some reason I wasn't allowed to do that.

Author:	Jan [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 7:08 AM ]
Post subject:
I suggest Party PvP in Cordor. Oh wait.

Author:	TormakSaber [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 7:13 AM ]
Post subject:
Don't even go there.

Author:	Silvarus [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 7:47 AM ]
Post subject:
TormakSaber wrote: Don't even go there. But...

Author:	soundofastream [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 8:57 AM ]
Post subject:
I guess the real question here is. "What do we do if there are NPCs around, yet no DMs to control them?". For instance, will NPC Road Wardens or Grove Guards in Amia forest step in to break up a fight normally? In some cities, I'm not even sure if Guards will even bother interferring with fights. L'Obsul's guards might just turn a blind eye, or regardless of circumstance, always beat up the foreigner and put them in jail instead? In Underport, Mindflayers with mind control and lots of guards means NO fights can even start I'd think? Dunno... I think DMs need to just give the playerbase clear direction for each area where NPC guards exist and then, we the players can react accordingly in our RP. Maybe a 'Guide to towns, villages and important areas' done up with an intro and some guidance on NPCs guard reactions to conflicts between players? Just a suggestion...

Author:	Geld Yaztran [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 9:01 AM ]
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Before this degrades to oneliners, I like to think alignment should play the part of how the NPC merchants react. Some merchants may not only not help, but loot your corpse and sell your goods off.

Author:	Really Evil Pigeon [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 11:39 AM ]
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Silvarus wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Don't even go there. But... QFE? shifty look

Author:	Mr Mago [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 12:46 PM ]
Post subject:
soundofastream wrote: In Underport, Mindflayers with mind control and lots of guards means NO fights can even start I'd think? Dunno... cough

Author:	Drakos_Vek [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 13:50 PM ]
Post subject:
Mr Mago wrote: soundofastream wrote: In Underport, Mindflayers with mind control and lots of guards means NO fights can even start I'd think? Dunno... cough Becuase every player is defiently not jacked up on mindblank potions. Anyway, I say the DM's current way of running things is fine.

Author:	Mr Mago [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 14:26 PM ]
Post subject:
Because that's not quite what has happened so far in Underport.

Author:	Godo [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 14:50 PM ]
Post subject:
Well even in Cordor I could see some shady and corrupt guards, especially in the more shady part of the city like south Cordor. Guards that could be paid off to look the other way. South Cordor I think has too many NPC guards as is, shouldn’t it be more run by gang leaders and crooks rather then by the guards? Merchants I guess it would depend more on the merchants shops where they are more concerned with any damage that can be caused if a fight broke out, like the inns they would say take it outside while just a shop they would turn a blind eye as long as no dame is caused or harm is done to them, perhaps even a bribe to be blind and dumb after the fact. Underport I could see them getting involved only if it gets too out of hand that would ruin business, even to the point of snagging up the loser of some fight themselves to sell on the slave market there. Remember you can not take modern day RL instances as the way things would be on Amia, it’s a totally different word with different moral concepts.

Author:	Merrien [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 15:18 PM ]
Post subject:
Godo wrote: Well even in Cordor I could see some shady and corrupt guards, especially in the more shady part of the city like south Cordor. Guards that could be paid off to look the other way. South Cordor I think has too many NPC guards as is, shouldn’t it be more run by gang leaders and crooks rather then by the guards? Merchants I guess it would depend more on the merchants shops where they are more concerned with any damage that can be caused if a fight broke out, like the inns they would say take it outside while just a shop they would turn a blind eye as long as no dame is caused or harm is done to them, perhaps even a bribe to be blind and dumb after the fact. Underport I could see them getting involved only if it gets too out of hand that would ruin business, even to the point of snagging up the loser of some fight themselves to sell on the slave market there. Remember you can not take modern day RL instances as the way things would be on Amia, it’s a totally different word with different moral concepts. It'd be hilarious to have gangleader NPCs in South Cordor, lol.... envisioning a couple of thugs standing around, picking their fingernails with their knives "Yeah, keep on walking... don't even turn around." and/or cat calling females that walk by.... lol...

Author:	Geld Yaztran [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 15:23 PM ]
Post subject:
Acually at one time there were NO guards in South Cordor.....and the Black Flag, a player run mafia style faction, ran South Cordor......ahhh, I loved those days....and yeah we pretty much did those things you mentioned....along with some larceny, muggings, robberies, and murders...lol

Author:	Merrien [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 15:30 PM ]
Post subject:
Geld Yaztran wrote: Acually at one time there were NO guards in South Cordor.....and the Black Flag, a player run mafia style faction, ran South Cordor......ahhh, I loved those days....and yeah we pretty much did those things you mentioned....along with some larceny, muggings, robberies, and murders...lol lol, dang, I missed it! some of my chars would be flummoxed, but oocly I'd be lol'ing!

Author:	Grymia [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 16:02 PM ]
Post subject:
Geld Yaztran wrote: Yeah...we'd make them pay a "Fee" for strolling through Cordor.....it was a pithy fee but..heh it was fun shaking people for fifty gold pieces each...lol Yeah, until the FLAG and other renegade groups in the South pushed too far and.. well, we come to our state today.

Author:	Merrien [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 16:03 PM ]
Post subject:
Somebody always gotta ruin the fun. Boo!

Author:	Lally [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 16:06 PM ]
Post subject:
It's sort of like what happened to Times Square. Sure it looks pretty now, but people will never admit they miss the wall to wall porno.

Author:	Scimiter [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 16:26 PM ]
Post subject:
Simple fact is that if there's no DM to possess the NPC and it's not a faction area which have a strict no meta rule already all you can do is roll with the RP and take a screenie if you want to protest after the fact. That or you can whine like a child and then log out and sulk about it. Without a clear rule in place it is a case by case thing that only a DM can judge on

Author:	Herra Tutteri [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 16:28 PM ]
Post subject:
Grymia wrote: Geld Yaztran wrote: Yeah...we'd make them pay a "Fee" for strolling through Cordor.....it was a pithy fee but..heh it was fun shaking people for fifty gold pieces each...lol Yeah, until the FLAG and other renegade groups in the South pushed too far and.. well, we come to our state today. Oh I remember Hunie leading a raid to their warehouse and shutting it down. Was beutiful. He never got credit for that, though.

Author:	762 [ Thu, Mar 18 2010, 16:38 PM ]
Post subject:
Lalelilolu wrote: It's sort of like what happened to Times Square. Sure it looks pretty now, but people will never admit they miss the wall to wall porno. Because they know they can still find it on 8th Avenue.