AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Okay... *NONE* of the hin deities support a CG alignment? Not a single one? For hin? Not even Brandobaris, the god of (according to FR Wiki) thievery, stealth, adventure, and halfling rogues? This is the pantheon of a race notorious for wanderers, adventurers, and rogues?

I must be missing something here...

Well, Kelemvor ...Doesn't have Death as his Domain.

So....

Somebody's missed something.

Last edited by Gunz on Fri, Aug 06 2010, 10:15 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Contrary to what seems to be popularly believed, the way of the Rogue is not one of chaos by default. A rogue can very well be lawful and make tons of sense. Likewise, adventuring, thievery, stealth and wandering has nothing to do with chaos inherently either. Look at Mask, he's NE. Look at Shar, she's NE. Look at Baravar Cloakshadow, he's NG. Look at Vergadain, he's TN. Brandobaris? TN. All these gods of theivery, stealth and over-all rogueish ways are neutral. The Elven god of this sort is of course CN, but Elves are weird and always have chaotic gods so they don't make a strong case at all.

Hin aren't a chaotic race by default either. If anything, they're more of a neutral race. And if I was to argue toward law or chaos, I'd argue for law. All the Hin gods are lawful, save for Sheela Peryroyl and Brandobaris. Stronghearts are known for their lawful ways. Ghostwise are probably more neutral, leaning toward lawful, considering their distaste for the teachings of Brandobaris and their love of Urogalan and Sheela. Lightfoots are the one's that perhaps embrace a bit more chaos, but I wouldn't call them chaotic. I'd say they too are neutral, but with a bend toward chaos in this case. Hell, look at the mechanics and it even tells you there that Hin are usually neutral.

Anyway, about the gods and Chaotic Good. No, none of the Hin gods allow for CG priests. However, those restrictions only apply to their priests, not the rest of their worshipers. You can very well be a CG Ranger/Rogue who worships Brandobaris or Cyrrollalee or any other Hin god. That's totally and completely fine.

The hin pantheon can have CG followers, but they don't give divine support to them, as in clerical stuff.

Arvoreen - LG
Brandobaris - TN
Cyrrollalee - LG
Sheela Peryroyl - TN
Urogolan - LN
Yondalla - LG

Taking the deities' alignments into consideration, along with the "one-step" alignment rule (divine support given to characters of the deity's alignment, or one step away on either axis), then.....no. No divine support for CG characters. Sorry, them's the breaks.

I'll use Brandobaris for example, since you named that one specificly. His alignment is Neutral Neutral, or True Neutral. Therefor, he would divinely support only thos of the following alignments: LN, NN, CN / NG, NN, NE. All other alignments are two steps away from -his- alignment, and therefor, not supported.

========

As for Kelemvor, yes he -should- have the Death domain. Not sure why he doesn't, myself, if that's the case.

At the time the deity system was added don't believe Death had support for non undead creatures. Hence he wasn't given detah, since at the time, only Undead were summoned.

Khylaria wrote:

As for Kelemvor, yes he -should- have the Death domain. Not sure why he doesn't, myself, if that's the case.

He was never updated after the Death Domain was made more complex, in order to include non-undead summons for gods like Kelemvor. He should for sure be updated though. It's been discussed a few times already. I think it might be on Disco's "to-do" list.

....Ninja-ed by Tormak... :evil:

Tymora is considered one of Yondalla's Children (depending on which book you're looking at) and she is CG I believe.

O.o No she's not? She's just allied with the Hin Pantheon. Tymora came from Tyche, along with Beshaba. Tyche wasn't a Hin god and Tymora and Beshaba aren't and never were Hin god either.

It's like Mielikki and Silvanus being very close to the Elven Pantheon. They're still not members of the Seldarine.

Quote:

Halflings consider Tymora to be one of Yondalla's Children, and consider her widespread worship in human lands as simply the greatest of Lady Luck's numerous humorous cons.

http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Tymora

She's also Brandobaris' consort in many verions, which would make her "part of the family" by marriage, so to speak, if nothing else.

I think it is really important to note that non-divine characters are perfectly allowed to follow deities they're not within one-step of.

Exact words are also in Faiths and Pantheons, so its not a victim of one of Amiawiki's bad mistakes.

If your really that concerned about it, go CN and go Brandobaris. Your character personality can still be CG'ish, the two blur so often that it wouldn't really matter.

BloodNAshes wrote:

Quote:

Halflings consider Tymora to be one of Yondalla's Children, and consider her widespread worship in human lands as simply the greatest of Lady Luck's numerous humorous cons.

http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Tymora

She's also Brandobaris' consort in many verions, which would make her "part of the family" by marriage, so to speak, if nothing else.

That means some Hin believe her to be, and that's true enough. Saying that she's considered a member of the Hin Pantheon though is a big step up and untrue.

"Some believe to her to be" and "she is considered to be" are semantically equivalent...

I don't see why it matters though, real polytheism isn't very dogmatic or universal about these sorts of things so I don't see why FR should be.

Tymora's not a Hin God.

BloodNAshes wrote:

"Some believe to her to be" and "she is considered to be" are semantically equivalent...

I don't see why it matters though, real polytheism isn't very dogmatic or universal about these sorts of things so I don't see why FR should be.

Not really. Saying that some Hin believe her to be part of the Pantheon is to suggest that that is so in the IC sense. Saying that she's considered to be of the Hin Pantheon in some of the lore books can imply that it's true in an OOC sense. Some Hin may believe it, but it certainly isn't true at a lore and OOC level is why I corrected you.

Quote:

Tymora's not a Hin God.

She's a god commonly worshipped by hin, whose portfolio includes lightfoot halflings. Why does anything else more than that matter? Whether it's marked "this is a dyed-in-the-wool true, official hin pantheon god" in some half-thought-out wotc product somewhere shouldn't really be important if you're playing a halfling who wants to pick a "chaotic good" god who a halfling would likely pick. Even if she wasn't, if halflings on Amia suddenly took to worshipping her en masse, then she'd become a hin god, for all intents and purposes. Going "by the book" is a very monotheist approach to religion.

It's been mentioned before, but yea: You don't need to be within "one step" of your patron's alignment. You can be a CG thief of Brandobaris. There's nothing stopping you. Unless you wish your hin to also get divine casting too.

You could be a LE Brandobaris worshipper just the same. In Amia the only thing you miss out on is the tine boost you get on the off chance you get a 'prayer' granted.

Go wild. You're not restricted.

BloodNAshes wrote:

She's a god commonly worshipped by hin, whose portfolio includes lightfoot halflings. Why does anything else more than that matter? Whether it's marked "this is a dyed-in-the-wool true, official hin pantheon god" in some half-thought-out wotc product somewhere shouldn't really be important if you're playing a halfling who wants to pick a "chaotic good" god who a halfling would likely pick. Even if she wasn't, if halflings on Amia suddenly took to worshipping her en masse, then she'd become a hin god, for all intents and purposes. Going "by the book" is a very monotheist approach to religion.

You're wrong. Her portfolio doesn't include lightfoot Hin at all. You're trying to prove that she's from the Hin Pantheon when the books very clearly state she's not. She's a god from the Faerun Pantheon.

If her worship is highly popular among Hin on Amia, she would remain exactly what she is: a popular god among Hin. That doesn't change the cosmology of Amian FR unless DM's state such. She's a popular god among Hin -- hell, even my Hin prays to her -- but she's not a Hin god.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora

Tymora worshippers

Lightfoot halflings

Tymora Portfolio

Gods are creatures of belief in the setting, unless that's changed last time I checked, so regardless of what verse 5, line 8 from the gospel of WoTC might say (many of which, like many such texts, contradict each other) the OP should be more concerned with trying to figure out how the character in mind would view the deity not what "it really is". I stated many hin consider her part of the pantheon, which is true, and that she's a consort of Brandobaris in many versions, which is also true. Ergo, it's a valid choice if you're trying to pick a "halfling god who supports CG". I can read the books, I copied everything on hin from the books into a file on the wiki, I know what they say, I just don't see the point of nitpicking like this is or why something needs to be "official".

Very_Svensk wrote:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tymora

Tymora worshippers

Lightfoot halflings

Tymora Portfolio

Just because they worship her doesn't mean that she's part of the hin pantheon instead of the Faerun Pantheon.
From the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:

In the book, she is also listed under the Faerunian Pantheon and NOT under the Halfling Pantheon. Who worships her is a VERY different thing to what pantheon she is a part of. That would be like calling Yahweh a part of the Ancient Egyptian Pantheon because some Egyptians worshipped him. Try proposing that one to the next Christian you see (or Ancient Egyptian I suppose).

Except that many halflings do consider her one of Yondalla's Children, so it would be like if Jawheh was subsumed into the Egyptian pantheon by egyptian worshippers, which happened with real world polytheism all the time.

Yes, but unlike real life the pantheon a god belongs to affects the ability for them to affect worshippers in another pantheon and afaik a god cannot be in more than one pantheon at once.

BloodNAshes wrote:

Gods are creatures of belief in the setting, unless that's changed last time I checked, so regardless of what verse 5, line 8 from the gospel of WoTC might say (many of which, like many such texts, contradict each other) the OP should be more concerned with trying to figure out how the character in mind would view the deity not what "it really is". I stated many hin consider her part of the pantheon, which is true, and that she's a consort of Brandobaris in many versions, which is also true. Ergo, it's a valid choice if you're trying to pick a "halfling god who supports CG". I can read the books, I copied everything on hin from the books into a file on the wiki, I know what they say, I just don't see the point of nitpicking like this is or why something needs to be "official".

The OP asked a specific question: "Okay... *NONE* of the hin deities support a CG alignment? Not a single one?"

She asked about Hin deities, not popular gods among Hin. That's a different topic. Not that it was wrong that you bring Tymora up, it's just wrong that you try to misrepresent her as a Hin god, when she's clearly not. Just because many Hin love her doesn't mean she's a Hin god. It's great that the OP is informed of which gods outside of the Hin Pantheon are popular among Hin and that Hin might think Tymora is of the Hin Pantheon. However, it's not fine that the OP is told information that would have the OP think OOCly that Tymora is of the Hin Pantheon because it's not true. That's the point in the nitpicking.

Things need to be official because this is all at an OOC level and people should know the official truth of the matter. If she ICly went to your character and asked him a question aimed at getting a similar answer and you referred to Tymora as a Hin god, that's a totally different matter that wouldn't need correcting at all, because that's IC belief, not OOC known truth.

This is last time I'll try stating this. If a "hin deity" is not equivalent to a god considered a hin deity and popular among hin by hin themselves, then what is a "hin deity" is irrelevant in terms of the actual character in-game. Knowing the "OOC truth of the matter" should be a question about trivia if anything, not a question pertaining to making a character.

Basically, my position is being misrepresented here in order to repeat some statement of officialness like I missed it the first time, or like the OP must have missed it. I'm saying Tymora is "part of the hin pantheon" as far as concerns actual religious practice and belief, among many if not most, in the world your character is going to exist in, and not whatever writer outside the world penned down in the book about her status.

Quote:

Yes, but unlike real life the pantheon a god belongs to affects the ability for them to affect worshippers in another pantheon and afaik a god cannot be in more than one pantheon at once.

Not sure what "can't affect worshippers" in another pantheon is supposed to mean or how it would matter. If you're a CG halfling and want to get divine spells, you could pick Tymora and it'd be mechanically and thematically appropriate and it's not like your spells would auto-fail on people who worshipped an "official hin god".

Lastly, because we all officialness so much:

Quote:

Tymora's Followers: Tymora isn't in fashion in Luiren since Yondalla's Children advised that human deities weren't as Luiren (their pet adjective) as halfling gods of luck like Brandobaris. But Tymora's Followers like to say instead that the humans worship a halfling deity. They're the most individualistic of the halfling groups, but some of the most fervent competitors in the Games.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... 20020213rt

And again for emphasis:

Quote:

The names of the halfling powers of the Realms listed hereafter - Arvoreen, Brandobaris, Cyrrollalee, Sheela Peryroyl, Tymora, Urogalan, and Yondalla - are simply the names by which the individual halfling powers are most commonly known across the planes and the names by which religious scholars of other races refer to them.

http://grpg.wikidot.com/pantheon:halfling

BloodNAshes wrote:

Not sure what "can't affect worshippers" in another pantheon is supposed to mean or how it would matter. If you're a CG halfling and want to get divine spells, you could pick Tymora and it'd be mechanically and thematically appropriate and it's not like your spells would auto-fail on people who worshipped an "official hin god".

I'm referring to the relationships different pantheons have with eachother in Forgotten Realms. Pantheons get quite peeved when one pantheon tries to take the domain of another.

BloodNAshes wrote:

But Tymora's Followers like to say instead that the humans worship a halfling deity. They're the most individualistic of the halfling groups, but some of the most fervent competitors in the Games.

That's a IC point of view. And they like to say it. Just like I 'like' to say the sun rises in the morning, and not that the Earth rotates to bring it to my line of sight. Just because we 'like' to say something doesn't mean it's true.

BloodNAshes wrote:

The names of the halfling powers of the Realms listed hereafter - Arvoreen, Brandobaris, Cyrrollalee, Sheela Peryroyl, Tymora, Urogalan, and Yondalla - are simply the names by which the individual halfling powers are most commonly known across the planes and the names by which religious scholars of other races refer to them.

That place didn't list its sources. I named an official sourcebook that said she's not a member of the halfling pantheon. Bring me another sourcebook, a more recent one, that says that she is.
Either that or a DM ruling, since DMs can arbitrarily decide to add gods to pantheons since it's their game.

I appreciate you guys looking out for the original intent of my question.

I guess I'm a bit flabbergasted that, for example, Brandobaris, the god of thievery (an act which is by its very definition chaotic) of the halfling race (which is strongly good-leaning) does not accommodate CG clerics.

Regarding Tymora... I agree that Tymora does seem like she would be a natural fit among the hin. The lack of a "true" hin deity of luck does seem like a bit of a conspicuous gap in the pantheon of a race so associated with luck that they get to be "lucky" for free as a racial ability.

I thought halflings just worshipped whatever could reach the top shelf.

Last edited by Zinovy on Sun, Aug 08 2010, 2:07 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Pantheons are vague groupings. They seem to be deliniated partly by race and partly by sphere of influence in terms of worshippers. To say Tymora isn't part of the Hin pantheon isn't saying much, because if they worship her, and she cares to grant them blessings, then she is the object of worship in the same way as "official" halfling gods. In that sense, pantheons are made for ease of reference for players, mostly, because the gods of a so-called pantheon certainly don't all work together or have a checklist of eligible candidates.

Also, as mentioned earlier, gods are objects of worship to mortals, rather than buddies they call on. Many names you hear as deities are aspects of another god.

So should I hijack my own thread to ask whether it would be plausible for a shrine of Tymora to be erected in the Dale?

Lizzie wrote:

So should I hijack my own thread to ask whether it would be plausible for a shrine of Tymora to be erected in the Dale?

If you can get it happening ICly, I don't see why not.

Plausible in a FR setting (though more in Luiren than outside of it) in that halflings there praise her in a widespread manner. Implausible in Bendir Dale in that alot of its residents follow an unfocused selection of typically human deities to begin with. But it's something to do, if you like doing that!

Last edited by Gunz on Sun, Aug 08 2010, 2:58 AM, edited 1 time in total.

BloodNAshes wrote:

This is last time I'll try stating this. If a "hin deity" is not equivalent to a god considered a hin deity and popular among hin by hin themselves, then what is a "hin deity" is irrelevant in terms of the actual character in-game. Knowing the "OOC truth of the matter" should be a question about trivia if anything, not a question pertaining to making a character.

Basically, my position is being misrepresented here in order to repeat some statement of officialness like I missed it the first time, or like the OP must have missed it. I'm saying Tymora is "part of the hin pantheon" as far as concerns actual religious practice and belief, among many if not most, in the world your character is going to exist in, and not whatever writer outside the world penned down in the book about her status.

All of the Hin gods are popular among Hin and are indeed Hin deities. Tymora only has former and is indeed -not- a Hin deity. It's absolutely not irrelevant in an OOC sense. In fact, it's rather important if you want to talk Hin deities. The OP didn't ask you what gods are popular among Hin, the OP asked about Hin deities in specific.

I merely corrected you. You could have very well misspoken or said that what you're trying to say is merely what Hin think or perhaps what you think, but instead you continue to argue a moot point defensively.

BloodNAshes wrote:

Lastly, because we all officialness so much:

Quote:

Tymora's Followers: Tymora isn't in fashion in Luiren since Yondalla's Children advised that human deities weren't as Luiren (their pet adjective) as halfling gods of luck like Brandobaris. But Tymora's Followers like to say instead that the humans worship a halfling deity. They're the most individualistic of the halfling groups, but some of the most fervent competitors in the Games.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp? ... 20020213rt

And again for emphasis:

Quote:

The names of the halfling powers of the Realms listed hereafter - Arvoreen, Brandobaris, Cyrrollalee, Sheela Peryroyl, Tymora, Urogalan, and Yondalla - are simply the names by which the individual halfling powers are most commonly known across the planes and the names by which religious scholars of other races refer to them.

http://grpg.wikidot.com/pantheon:halfling

The first one is pointing out the ICness of how Hin see it, not how it truely is. Tymora doesn't come from the Green Fields, the home of the Hin gods, she's not listed as a Hin god and is never once mentioned to actually be a Hin god.

The last one is just some random site with nothing supporting what's written. It could very well be home brew.

Lizzie wrote:

I guess I'm a bit flabbergasted that, for example, Brandobaris, the god of thievery (an act which is by its very definition chaotic) of the halfling race (which is strongly good-leaning) does not accommodate CG clerics.

I'm not sure I agree that thievery is inherently chaotic. But that's besides the point I suppose. Here's a list of thievery and thieves gods for you:

Faerun: Mask has both thievery and thieves in his portfolio and he's NE.
Hin: Brandobaris has thievery in his portfolio and he's TN/NN.
Dwarves: Vergadain has Non-Evil Thieves in his portfolio and he's TN/NN.
Orc: Shargaas has thieves in his portfolio and he's CE.
Drow: Vhaeraun has thievery in his porfolio and he's CE. (Keep in mind that all Drow gods, like all Elven gods, are Chaotic though.)

I should also mention the following:

Abbathor, who is the Dwarven god of greed, which can of course include thievery. However, it's not mentioned specifically in his portfolio (He has: greed). He's LE.

Shar doesn't have thievery in her portfolio (She has: dark, night, hatred, loss, forgetfulness, unrevealed secrets, caverns, dungeons, the Underdark), but she's still worth a mention since many thieves work in shadows. She's NE.

Baravar Cloakshadow doesn't have thievery in his portfolio (He has: illusions, deceptions, traps, wardings), but many thieves do worship him so he's worth mentioning. He's NG.

Erevan Illesere doesn't have thievery in his portfolio (He has: mischief, change, rogues), but he's a god of rogues. I'd bet many Elven thieves worship him though. He's CN. But, it should be mentioned that all Elven gods are chaotic because it's just their way of being and Elves are just weird and have all kinds of exceptions. >.>

-----

There are might be other thief gods, but those are the ones I could think of and ones I felt needed mention. Gods like Cyric, Oghma, Beshaba and, of course, Tymora are popular rogue choices too -- including thieves.

Lizzie wrote:

So should I hijack my own thread to ask whether it would be plausible for a shrine of Tymora to be erected in the Dale?

Sure it is. Do it ICly though.

I'd bet lots of Hin would even support the idea.

Quote:

I merely corrected you. You could have very well misspoken or said that what you're trying to say is merely what Hin think or perhaps what you think, but instead you continue to argue a moot point defensively.

To repeat, I copied everything from every core and 3.5 book on hin into "The Big Book of Small Folk". I know very well what it says. It's not a moot point however to state that what the books say on this and many other issues is largely incoherent (semantically a "hin god" is a god of or belonging to hin, and as creatures of belief gods are almost wholly dependent on their worshipers opinions of them to determine their being anyway), contradictory (it states she is one of "Yondalla's Children" in certain passages, which is the name for the hin pantheon), inane (making her a consort of Brandobaris if she's not intended to be part of the pantheon), unclear (explaining what exactly the effects on the world would be of being a hin diety or a god considered by hin to be their deity) or, yes most importantly, irrelevant (why the "OOC sense of talking Hin deities" matters when making the character when it's not going to affect said character, nor the god, mechanically or thematically). The whole "is she really part of the pantheon?" argument strikes me as pedantry.

Zzzzzz........

Tymora is Human Pantheon, end of story.

Quote:

and as creatures of belief gods are almost wholly dependent on their worshipers opinions of them to determine their being anyway

No, gods derive their power from worshippers, but what that power is and their alignment is determined by them and the portfolios they have, which are rigorously regulated by AO.

Someone define "pantheon" for me other than its dictionary meaning? I can't find a definition for it on FRwiki or WotC. It seems to be a very loose grouping based on followers and influence, with no IC tangibility beyond the relationships between those groups of followers.

The "pantheons" in FR divide the gods into various groups. There's the "Human" or "Faerunian" Pantheon, and this is things like Bane, Torm, Tyr, Cyric, Kossuth, LAthander, Red Knight, Tempus, Kelemvor, etc etc etc.

Then there's the racial pantheons. "Elven" "Dwarven" "Hin "Gnome" "Orc" "Draconic" etc. Some subraces have a tiny pantheon that is a perversion or subversion of their full racial pantheons, such as "Duergar" and "Drow" pantheons.

Even Goblins, Kobolds, Gnolls, Sahuagin, etc tend to have some measure of quasi powers or demipowers that they worship.

At the end you have the human pantheons that are not the Faerunian pantheon. These are still worshipped generally by humans and planetouched but are differentiated from the "Human" or "Faerunian" Pantheon by the name of their region. The "Untheric" Pantheon, the "Mulhorandi" pantheon, the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara Tur, etc.

Sometimes deities cross pantheons and join another one. The big example here is Assuran, who moved over from the Untheric Pantheon during war with the Mulhorandi Pantheon, and became Hoar, in the Faerunian pantheon. Same deity, but new name, and same hate for the Mulhorand gods

Hope that helps.

EDIT: Another example is the Netherese deity (and not Mulhorandi.... that was a big lore oops from me during the Nes'ek plot...) Amaunator. An old and stern deity, when Netheril fell, he was reborn into the youthful and energetic Lathander. In 4th edition, thanks to the Risen Sun Heresy, the Second Sun over Eversult, and the revitalization of the Netherese Empire, he reclaims his old name and title of Amaunator, but still gives faith and power to those who owrship hm in his younger aspect of the Morninglord Lathander.

Well, yes and no. I was more going for: what makes it a pantheon?

It's partly race, but many races can worship a same god. Mulhorand/Unther all came to Faerun as a lump, so their union comes from there and is more tangible. While I don't know alot about the racial history of dwarves and elves, there's still a story about how their gods came to be and why they watch over their respective races, rather than scramble for all manner of followers (since gods more or less explicitly know it dictates their power since the Time of Troubles), and it's inherent to their racial character to be more secluded and autarcic.

I'm saying that "God X belongs to X pantheon" sounds oversimplified. What makes a pantheon seems to vary alot per pantheon, and alot of what people put forward seems assumption of some kind of union that, beyond the racial deities, I don't see. Mask and Oghma are in the same pantheon, but they certainly aren't allies.

They're a pantheon because that's how AO groups and categorizes them. Nothing much more to it. You see this in RL mythology too. The Greek pantheon, the Norse pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, etc.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

I'm not sure I agree that thievery is inherently chaotic. But that's besides the point I suppose. Here's a list of thievery and thieves gods for you:

Faerun: Mask has both thievery and thieves in his portfolio and he's NE.
Hin: Brandobaris has thievery in his portfolio and he's TN/NN.
Dwarves: Vergadain has Non-Evil Thieves in his portfolio and he's TN/NN.
Orc: Shargaas has thieves in his portfolio and he's CE.
Drow: Vhaeraun has thievery in his porfolio and he's CE. (Keep in mind that all Drow gods, like all Elven gods, are Chaotic though.)

I should also mention the following:

Abbathor, who is the Dwarven god of greed, which can of course include thievery. However, it's not mentioned specifically in his portfolio (He has: greed). He's LE.

Shar doesn't have thievery in her portfolio (She has: dark, night, hatred, loss, forgetfulness, unrevealed secrets, caverns, dungeons, the Underdark), but she's still worth a mention since many thieves work in shadows. She's NE.

Baravar Cloakshadow doesn't have thievery in his portfolio (He has: illusions, deceptions, traps, wardings), but many thieves do worship him so he's worth mentioning. He's NG.

Erevan Illesere doesn't have thievery in his portfolio (He has: mischief, change, rogues), but he's a god of rogues. I'd bet many Elven thieves worship him though. He's CN. But, it should be mentioned that all Elven gods are chaotic because it's just their way of being and Elves are just weird and have all kinds of exceptions.

This is well-researched and interesting, but not exactly to the point. I'm not arguing that the god of thievery should necessarily *be* chaotic. I'm arguing that the god of theory should support chaotic clerics. Mask (NE), Shar (NE), and Baravar Cloakshadow (NG) are all examples in favor of my argument. Of the nine deities you listed, six support CG or CE clerics, and I'd assert that one of the other three (Abbathor) isn't really relevant to a discussion of thief gods, since although his portfolio may be tangentially thiefy, the dwarves already have a god whose portfolio explicitly and non-tangentially includes thieves, and that god (Vergadain) can IMHO be discounted because the dwarves are the archetypal Lawful PC race - they're pretty fanatic about it. It's only natural that dwarven gods should shun chaotics in all forms. Hin don't have that same lawful reputation; they're described in the PHB as trending neutral. And the distinctions between NG and CG are so meaningless that even WotC scrapped those alignments for 4th Edition. If you buy those arguments, then the Hin god of thievery is the only real outlier.

Edit: Took a quick look into the Deities & Demigods book just because it was on my shelf and within reach.

Add three more pantheons to support my argument: Hermes (CG) and Loki (CE) are the thievery gods of the Olympian and Asgardian pantheons. The Pharaonic (Egyptian) pantheon has no god with thieves or thievery explicitly listed in their portfolio, but the recommended rogue deities are Apep (NE), Bast (CG), Bes (CN), and Set (CE), all of whom allow for chaotic clerics. Brandobaris not allowing CG just looks weirder and weirder, IMO.

Brandobaris supports Chaotics. He supports CN's. And yeah, I know you weren't asking about thief gods in general, just giving you an over view of some of the gods so you get an idea of how they're spread out.

About Dwarves being Lawful, that's actually not always true. Look at the Dwarven Pantheon and you'll find lots of Neutrals and a few Chaotic gods. But it is true that Dwarves tend to be Lawful, yes.

Keep in mind that Deities & Demigods is core D&D, as in Greyhawk, not Forgotten Realms. That book is no good for the setting we play in. You need the Forgotten Realms deity book. It's called Faiths and Pantheons.

Hin pantheon?

Who is online