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The New Balance Changes (Questions/Comments)
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Author:  Ramika [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:20 PM ]
Post subject:  The New Balance Changes (Questions/Comments)
I didn't see a thread for this so ... Figured I'd start one. If I'm just silly and missed it, apologies ahead of time.

I was looking at the balance changes today and was wondering if I could get a few things clarified on some of them. It's generally pretty straight forward, but I just want a few things cleared up for my own (and probably others') sake. As someone who doesn't really have the original stuff memorized, I just gotta ask. I know it'll go further, but I'm starting with stuff to get clarified.

1.) I understand the balance in Bigby's in general, but what I'm not seeing is what was actually changed (as I don't really know the specifics of the spell). What's the difference between the old and new?

2.) Are the raise dead/resurrection changes affecting the scrolls or the scrolls -and- spells? (And the few items out there cast it.)

3.)Again a spell I don't use - what are the differences in the Tenser's spell now?

4.) Three part question on DevCrit:
-Do the rounds affect both the knockdown and status affects?
-Does knockdown work like regular knockdown, where discipline can help prevent it?
-If the DevCrit does succeed, does it still do the "instakill"? I.E. Take out a huge chunk of that person's HP? If not, what changed there?

I think that's all I was curious about.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I'll answer what I'm sure of!


Ramika wrote:
1.) I understand the balance in Bigby's in general, but what I'm not seeing is what was actually changed (as I don't really know the specifics of the spell). What's the difference between the old and new?


The previous Bigby used to perform a bullrush against the target's STR score. If they failed, they'd be knocked over for rounds equal to caster level/2. The new Bigby knocks over on a failed Fortitude save, as well as dealing Bludgeoning damage.


Quote:
3.)Again a spell I don't use - what are the differences in the Tenser's spell now?


From the spell page:

Tenser's Transformation
+1d6 temporary HP/caster level,
+4 natural armor bonus to AC
+2d4 Strength
+2d4 Dexterity
+1 BAB/ 2 caster levels (which may give the character an extra attack)
+5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves,
Proficiency with all simple and martial weapons.
100% Spell Failure


Quote:
4.) Three part question on DevCrit:
-Do the rounds affect both the knockdown and status affects?
-Does knockdown work like regular knockdown, where discipline can help prevent it?
-If the DevCrit does succeed, does it still do the "instakill"? I.E. Take out a huge chunk of that person's HP? If not, what changed there?


- Rounds for knockdown, turns for status effects.
- No.
- It doesn't instantly kill anymore. It does what's described on the announcement post. Knockdown, blind, silence and deafen.
Author:  Uncle-Opustus [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
1) The save is vs Fort, rather than STR, just like in Wail for instance. That's the most relevant change to it, the others are right there visible.

2) Both, I'd imagine.

3) It doesn't improve once it reaches +10 AB, it doesn't grant +4 AC, the Fort save bonus was removed, it used to grant extra attacks meaning that the AB behaved similar to the actual BAB only that it capped in +20 as usual.

4) If Devcrit is rolled and failed, it applies knockdown for [X] rounds, and Blind, Silenced and Deafened for [X] turns. Check the list and place the first number (for example: 3 for a onehanded weapon of 20 base crit.) as X.

Nuh, there's no Discipline check in the KD.

No instakill.
Author:  Charles1810 [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Greater Sanctuary
Apply Temporary HP equal to CL*5. Apply Greater Sanctuary Effect. Apply Spell Failure 100%. All effects are Linked.
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.
Also blocks spells from items when effect is active.

So the only way to remove Greater Sanctuary is to attack something now, correct?
Author:  Ramika [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Ahh. Righto. Thanks.
Author:  Uberuce [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Devcrit was always going to be taken off instakill, it was just a matter of finding something that maintained the STR-base route as viable but cut out a few cheesier builds. I wish I'd thought of the way it ties duration to threat range, but all I can take credit for is the KD+Blind/Stun/Deaf mix and the extra love for twohanderers.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I'm a bit surprised no additional damage boost was given to it since that was the main focus I was hearing, but this change is pretty damn nifty as well. I guess it kind of gives a damage boost indirectly, since you're going to splatter them while they're on the floor flatfooted.

As for Greater Sanctuary, if you can't cast any offensive spells, nor use them from items, you're left with either attacking something or using the debuff option on the rest menu, yeah. Provided epic spells are counted in for the spell failure.
Author:  drahgon [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
the only miscom I see about the devcrit is....

Devastating Critical Hit

"If Devcrit is rolled and failed"

I'm assuming now it means the save is failed, and not, the player with dev rolls but the dev itself failed cause the player in the receiving end succeeds the save.

sooo.... it all seems rather interesting... though I still don't like the 100% spell failure on GS but still, fortunately it doesn't last -too- long with spell failure
Author:  Didi [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 17:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Regarding Divine Favour, does it cap at +5?
Author:  Terra_777 [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:01 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I didnt touch the cap so it should if the old did.
Author:  Didi [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
[deleted so as not to confuse others by my daftness]
Author:  Uberuce [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
drahgon wrote:
the only miscom I see about the devcrit is....

Devastating Critical Hit

"If Devcrit is rolled and failed"

I'm assuming now it means the save is failed, and not, the player with dev rolls but the dev itself failed cause the player in the receiving end succeeds the save.
Devcritter lands a crit ->Target rolls Fort.

If Target passes DC -> normal critical hit damage inflicted.

If Target fails DC -> applies new Devcrit effects, also normal critical hit damage inflicted.

It *is* a nerf; there's no status effect as nasty as DEAD, so anything except the instakill has to be downhill.
Author:  Kraniumbrud [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Love the changes...all of them
Author:  DerkDerkistan [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
The math on the GS Temporary HP is wrong. It says Caster Level x5. It's really Caster Level x5 / 2.
Author:  Zebora [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
What changed in Divine Favor.. Was it nerfed or upped?
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Kraniumbrud wrote:
Love the changes...all of them


Ditto. It's a pity that HiPS isn't working yet. I'm looking forward to the changes it receives in a masochistic way.

And Divine Favor has been nerfed. You need 20 cleric levels now for it to become +5, whereas you only needed 15 before.
Author:  Grymia [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
PaladinOfSune wrote:
Kraniumbrud wrote:
Love the changes...all of them


Ditto. It's a pity that HiPS isn't working yet. I'm looking forward to the changes it receives in a masochistic way.

And Divine Favor has been nerfed. You need 20 cleric levels now for it to become +5, whereas you only needed 15 before.



I didn't see anything about changes to HiPS.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Yeah.

We want hips nerfed!

*Chants* Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 18:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Grymia wrote:
I didn't see anything about changes to HiPS.


That's what I mean, yeah. It hasn't been fully tweaked to a working state yet, so it wasn't included.
Author:  beciv [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:01 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Will there be rebuilds offered to those that have dev crit and find the feat no longer useful in their build?
Author:  Terra_777 [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Very_Svensk wrote:
Yeah.

We want hips nerfed!

*Chants* Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf!


Working on that.

Also pushed a mini-mini-mini fix to include the pvp-tool resurrection to the new resurrection routines.
Author:  alamut [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
How about paladins ? Do they need lvl 20 to get divine favor +5 as well ?
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:04 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Charles1810 wrote:
Greater Sanctuary
Apply Temporary HP equal to CL*5. Apply Greater Sanctuary Effect. Apply Spell Failure 100%. All effects are Linked.
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.
Also blocks spells from items when effect is active.

So the only way to remove Greater Sanctuary is to attack something now, correct?


Quote:
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.


No. It still has a duration. A rather brief one, relative to the old one, but I suppose that's the point.
Author:  corypx [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
beciv wrote:
Will there be rebuilds offered to those that have dev crit and find the feat no longer useful in their build?


I dont think all the shifters with monk levels with the shifter fix got rebuilds, and that made it 100% useless in form, so I would think no.
Author:  hendrack [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
beciv wrote:
Will there be rebuilds offered to those that have dev crit and find the feat no longer useful in their build?


I don't think there will be any free rebuilds to any of the builds affected by those changes. Self rebuild.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Shouldn't be.

And checking, it would appear the Temp HP has been taken away from Tenser's as well.
Author:  xXxSuShiKunxXx [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I was gonna say something on how some chars finally have a huge upper hand that they shouldn't, but after looking at it a while and thinking about it, its really well balanced. Well, when it comes to Caster-Anticasters. Great job. :D One question though. Any change on how Natural TS through shifting (Or shifting spells) Effects GS?
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:24 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Not likely. The same Sanctuary effect is applied, just at a lesser duration and you can't buff while in it. I suppose the Temp HP there is a little cushion in case someone spams AOE's while you're in it.

That doesn't really affect TS is what I'm saying. You just don't have to wait as long to attack the person.
Author:  alamut [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Also, I'm thinking on how Divine Favor nerfed Blackguards build a bit.

To the rest of the modifications, are not so bad as it supposed to be. Still wondering about creatures with TS. They won't get blinded, or at least, not all the effects regarding to get blind. So beholders are pretty much worse to fight then before.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Even if a creature has True Seeing, Blindness still makes them flatflooted and gives them a 50% miss chance. It's not that bad.
Author:  alamut [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 19:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I guess I missed all the effects then.
Author:  Xaviera [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Dark Immolation wrote:
Charles1810 wrote:
Greater Sanctuary
Apply Temporary HP equal to CL*5. Apply Greater Sanctuary Effect. Apply Spell Failure 100%. All effects are Linked.
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.
Also blocks spells from items when effect is active.

So the only way to remove Greater Sanctuary is to attack something now, correct?


Quote:
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.


No. It still has a duration. A rather brief one, relative to the old one, but I suppose that's the point.

Let me get this straight. A max level Cleric used to be able to GS for 30 minutes. Now he can only do it for 30 seconds, is that right? And about the only thing you can do under it is move, chug potions, or use scrolls or healkits?

So now it's basically... um... what can you do with it? Heal yourself in combat? Certainly there'll be no more running around the map playing tourist in areas you can't handle (which I suppose is a good thing...)

I think the Heal cooldown should be a good 5x longer and the Raise Dead/Rez cooldown at least double.
Author:  Glyph [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
woah woah woah, I take a two day breather and dev crit gets nerfed ? >_> anything happen to wail/weird ?

ed: though I believe the new version is appealing I can't help but think this nerfs fighters alot more than anything else.

also correct me if i'm wrong but (1 round = 6 seconds) x 30 == 180 seconds maximum, for GS, I think 30 seconds would be overkill...
Author:  Jes [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Xaviera wrote:
Let me get this straight. A max level Cleric used to be able to GS for 30 minutes. Now he can only do it for 30 seconds, is that right? And about the only thing you can do under it is move, chug potions, or use scrolls or healkits?

So now it's basically... um... what can you do with it? Heal yourself in combat? Certainly there'll be no more running around the map playing tourist in areas you can't handle (which I suppose is a good thing...)


Actually, you can't use items that have magic spells on them. So potions are out. It's turned into a RUN AWAY spell. That's it.
Author:  Terra_777 [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:18 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Code:
! DevastatingCritical() hooked at 0x00482280.

Code:
! StealthMode() hooked at 0x004bb3f0.


The nerf cannon loaded with hexadecimal addresses. GS is currently getting re-viewed and will probably get changed again.
Author:  BrainSplitter [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Your remaining options with Greater Sanctuary are; use Heal Kits, use Widgets, and Run. Scrolls, Potions, and Spellcasts are all blocked.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:20 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
alamut wrote:
Also, I'm thinking on how Divine Favor nerfed Blackguards build a bit.

To the rest of the modifications, are not so bad as it supposed to be. Still wondering about creatures with TS. They won't get blinded, or at least, not all the effects regarding to get blind. So beholders are pretty much worse to fight then before.


Ye. What happened to Blackguards now? They cant POSSIBLY get +5 From it, Now when they can get a maximum of 20 Levels.
Author:  Ramika [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:20 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I'm pretty much good with the balances changes. And this thread wasn't meant to pop up for people to complain. I wanted it to clarify some of the more confusing notions of the change.

I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure on GS either. So, it really only lasts for 30 seconds? I can understand the nerfing, it doesn't bother me ... but the time seems awful short. I can live with it though. Question though - does Mordy's/Reality potions still knock it out? I would assume they do... with as short as it lasts, seems kinda silly. But, still curious.
Author:  762 [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Terra_777 wrote:
GS is currently getting re-viewed and will probably get changed again.


One can only hope. Cleric is completely useless as is.

Either take off the spell failure or get rid of all the Mord scrolls everyone has. Otherwise cleric = crappy fighter.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Ramika wrote:
I'm pretty much good with the balances changes. And this thread wasn't meant to pop up for people to complain. I wanted it to clarify some of the more confusing notions of the change.

I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure on GS either. So, it really only lasts for 30 seconds? I can understand the nerfing, it doesn't bother me ... but the time seems awful short. I can live with it though. Question though - does Mordy's/Reality potions still knock it out? I would assume they do...


It lasts like ..3 Rounds.
Author:  Glyph [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:27 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Quote:
A round is an in game unit of time that lasts six seconds.


Quote:
Duration - CL/6 Rounds.


I'm not seeing where 3 rounds or 30 seconds is coming from..

regarding rez, does that mean if someone tried to revive you it will waste a scroll? if they don't wait 2 mins?

ed: mords is a level 9 scroll and totally legit for any wizard to learn from, or sorc/otherwise to use, via spellcasting or UMD.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
The duration is caster level divided by six. Not six rounds per caster level.

And yeah, it does waste a scroll/casting.
Author:  IronAngel [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
I'm rather split on the GS issue. I think the PvM function of the spell only encouraged laziness, and I have no idea about PvP. But it seems fishy to change it into something with no practical application, too. Outright removing it would be more fair and honest. I guess the problem with GS is that people have different ideas of what they're supposed to do with it.

Good changes overall, though. Not that I'm happy about Divine Power and the upcoming Monk AC nerf that completely screw over my PC, but it's fair. Anything that makes the game a bit more challenging is good, I guess.
Author:  Ramika [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:34 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Monk AC nerf? I thought they already did that?
Author:  Xaviera [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Ramika wrote:
does Mordy's/Reality potions still knock it out? I would assume they do... with as short as it lasts, seems kinda silly. But, still curious.

I was thinking the same. That 30 seconds is for a max-level caster (30th lvl x CL/6 rnds = 5 rounds x 6 s/rnd = 30 s). At the level you first get the spell, it'll be good for maybe 12-18 seconds. So I expect the demand for reality potions to take a nosedive. The best option for the attacker seems to be to spam whirlwind attacks or AoE's; you'll stand a good chance of either killing the guy while he's still in GS (since he's likely not casting it until he's in serious shape and then it only gives a max of 300 bonus hit points) or as soon as he pops out of it (when those bonus hits evaporate... Oops!). Oh, and if he's going to try running, he'll have to cast Haste before GS....
Author:  Burningoutbright [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Dev Crit makes me sad. :( It's easily fixable by a single Restoration scroll, which is both easily obtainable, cheap, and I think usable by anyone. I'm also not sure what to do now with my RP. Surely, I'm not the only one who had their PC learn the art/technique of being able to strike people so critically and efficiently the enemy takes extraordinary damage? I guess it's okay to have them lose control of their faculties, but that isn't what my PC trained to learn or did RP to learn.

Dev Crit changed into an entirely different technique, in my mind, with an entirely different effect. I'm not sure what to do with that feat until I get the proper RP done to warrant my PC learning that technique, albeit suddenly. Could it add more damage with a successful Dev Crit, please? I'm looking at it for my own RP, over technical reasons. It doesn't have to be Win button just to add more damage to have some kind of semblance to what my PC originally learned to do.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Isnt knockdown, Blind, Deaf and Silenced enough?
Author:  762 [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Burningoutbright wrote:
It's easily fixable by a single Restoration scroll
Author:  Ramika [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
Well, coming from someone with a devcritter... I never did that, no. Since Jordis is a Swordsage, her RP has always been a bit different from simply learning how to 'strike critically and efficiently'. And while yes, the restore can get rid of the status affects ... you can't do that when flat on your back. >.> A little more damage would be nice though, I agree. Otherwise, I'm not too saddened by it.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Sun, Oct 24 2010, 20:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: The New Balance Changes (Questions on it)
The only thing I'm bummed about really is Tenser's. Most of the nerfs with it are fine, but making it not able to use items pretty much makes it a deathtrap since the temp HP is gone too. You're throwing yourself into melee with no way(except kits I suppose) to heal. And your HP cushion is gone.

As well, I didn't get the point of taking away the extra attack from it. Two attacks per round at a capped 10, 3 hasted I supposed. But still, coupled with the rest of the things taken away from it, it's appealing to an even narrower niche now, if any. I could have sworn that it was agreed it was fine as is when it was first "fixed". >_>
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