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wereguy2

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 5:59 AM

Player

Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Yeah, that's right, this is another one of my personal rant threads that I hope can lead into substantial discussion. Probably not, though.

So, my character was recently killed because I like to write out long, detailed emotes. Many would see this as a virtue, yet here, I was ICly penalised for it. This happened because the GUI reported my character as standing in the one place, upon being ordered to leave - while I was typing. The way I see it is that people should assume that typing is going on (what other reason would there be for such prolonged idleness in the face of immediate threat and conflict) unless a shorter emote is made reporting otherwise.

The point that I am trying to make is that, PvP and RP do not mix, and I do not think that such should be the case. The only way this can be achieved is through the establishment of norms (common sense, I think), which is not to say that the system should be degraded to a turn-based affair (though text-based combat, while not possible for many characters, such as those with magic or summons, is awesome). And no, I do not think that my making of this thread can do this, as I am sure many people would otherwise point out; this is just (hopefully) a discussion.

Also: This is not me wanting people to make their own judgements on the above case, but to apply such opinions to all cases. Is just an example! >8C

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corypx

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 6:12 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Oct 2006

but if said persons RP was what caused him to be killed, then its not a problem. even more so if given time to do said request by the other party.

look at it this way, cops say freeze drop the weapon... you dont get to stand there thinking about it its drop the weapon, any other option is you die....

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HellScourge

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 6:13 AM

Player

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1

Write a quick "//One moment please, this pose will take some time to write." beforehand.

Problem solved.

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Yossarin

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 6:32 AM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

At the risk of contributing to a thread that's really going to go nowhere and result in more dismal attitudes...

I've been in these situations before, wereguy. Both as a PC and way more often controlling an NPC in a hostile situation that everyone wants to gank. Hellscourge's solution may work, but it is anathema to me b/c of the OOC.

No, what I do is I break it up into much smaller posts and throw away that tired old "taking turns posting" nonsense.

Example.

Druid: "Get out of my forest with that torch before I shoot you in the tits."
Me: "Whoa. Ok."
Me: *Puts hand up* "Calm down, be rational."
Me: "I only have this torch because I'm night blind, you see. I'm not trying to set fire to your forest."
Druid: "Now turn around and leave."
Me: *Hesitates* "If I may have a moment to explain myself..."
Me: "It is dark and cold out, and there are wolves after me..."

I suggest this because your one tiny little thread here in GD will have zero impact in the circumstances where you want it to have impact and with the players you want it to have impact with. However, adapting your "typing style" to immediately point out that you are submitting (and yet, leaving it open-ended enough to suggest that you are still typing, and you are still roleplaying, all without needing to go OOC and say so!) gives an immediate IG "tell" to the players you're involved with that PvP will not be necessary.

It has actually worked for me every single time.

wereguy2

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 6:47 AM

Player

Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

HellScourge wrote:

Write a quick "//One moment please, this pose will take some time to write." beforehand.

Yet this distrupts RP.

Yossarin wrote:

No, what I do is I break it up into much smaller posts and throw away that tired old "taking turns posting" nonsense.

I reckon this is the best way to go, yes.

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Zifon

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 7:01 AM

Player

Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Denmark

Yossarin wrote:

No, what I do is I break it up into much smaller posts and throw away that tired old "taking turns posting" nonsense.

wereguy2 wrote:

I reckon this is the best way to go, yes.

IMO, this goes for all interactions between players, be it in a heatet pvp possible moment or in a relaxed moment with friends. I dont like standing idle waiting 5 minutes for a answear of 20 lines. Smaller bits makes more flow I think...

IronAngel

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 10:20 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

It also lets people interrupt you and you can react to eachother more effectively. And I find it gives your speech a natural flow.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 10:51 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Quote:

The point that I am trying to make is that, PvP and RP do not mix,

Bzzt wrong

And Yossarin's post is pretty much /topic.

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Selmak

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 15:20 PM

Player

Joined: 17 Dec 2004

You can also throw a comma on the end, if that works for you.

Silent2001

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 15:24 PM

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Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire

Did Tormak become a gameshow host?

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Glyph

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 15:50 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

I would tend to agree with OP on this one, but that said for me the experience is trying to set hostile and being ganked while doing so -_- its called WAIT.

I have also seen people fly off the handle perhaps on an ooc level, and both partys should make it clear IC imho that a battle is about to commence

example

they: i'm getting sick of your insults kobold, why don't you bring your steel?
other they: your blood will wash the ground red halfling scum!

// set hostile

and pvp commences. none of this 'oh he was relativly threatening but sheathed his sword so I figure hellball is the way to go' the hell is that?

I thought this was solved by now. meh, its improved at least.

Arcadence

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:04 PM

Player

Joined: 09 May 2010

Quote:

common sense

You're asking this be removed.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:16 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Did you know that it's common sense to wave with your left hand in Bangladesh? Because you wipe your arse with the right one, and it's considered an insult to wave at somebody with you right hand?

Did you know that it's considered common sense to first ask the chef if its OK to salt and pepper the food, at resturants in southern-china? Anything else is an insult to the chef's work, as you do not dictate how the food is to taste.

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Nekhy

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:22 PM

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Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam

I think the wiping is done with the left hand, actually. Eating is done with the right hand.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:23 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Gah! Well i'm sure it varies depending on where you are in india. My point is that shouting 'Common sense' on the internet is like shooting yourself in the foot - It hurts, and it's not very smart

Yossarin

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:38 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

Svensk's right. It is common sense not to invoke common sense on the internet.

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:39 PM

Player

Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Yossarin wrote:

Svensk's right. It is common sense not to invoke common sense on the internet.

*Steals for signature*

Dwagin

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:49 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

When such situations occur you can do what I do:

*Begins to reach up to his hood scratching at his jaw as his body shifts some, his head leaning to the side. He snorts at the knight as he stares down...
(typing continues...)

"Leave or die.. I'm not gonna say it again...

*Begins to reach up to his hood scratching at his jaw as his body shifts some, his head leaning to the side. He snorts at the elf as he stares down at the man. The creature standing before him was glared at.. he was--- .....As the knight made its threat he muttered* Hrrrnn? Why is tha'?

(The break in my emote to respond)

I type long emotes and am on the south end of things with Rras often. You just need to be able to Roll with it hon, maybe that will help.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 16:58 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

I do exactly like you do. It's quite efficent!

DustSpray101

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 18:59 PM

Player

Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Location: Night Vale

Yossarin wrote:

Svensk's right. It is common sense not to invoke common sense on the internet.

Common what now? :lol:

In RP, I use ellipsis '...' at both the end of one block of text and leading into the beginning of another when I am typing continual long winded thoughts. I know it is improper use of them, but to many it demonstrates a pause in thought that most folks will let you finish. It pretty much is similar to what Dwagin does. Furthermore, consider breaking emotes into parts no longer than the screen is wide. It will likely help.

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hendrack

Posted: Fri, Mar 18 2011, 19:44 PM

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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna

What DustSpray said. Breaking up long emotes into multple lines during a tense situation is actually the only valid use of the three dots of death.

Murex

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 0:12 AM

Player

Joined: 01 Dec 2009

Glyph wrote:

// set hostile

This should be mandatory in my opinion. So much crap can be avoided with this.

Make this a rule Pleez!

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wereguy2

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 0:34 AM

Player

Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

I was not invoking common sense, merely stating my own opinion.
Yoss did make a good point, yes, though I don't really like the idea of breaking up related components of the same motion. For example, going back to my scenario in the original post, I was trying to type out a particularly complex shrug, involving a number of secondary movements around my character's body. This is, in itself, a single movement, and breaking it apart, or any other such action, seems rather flow-breaking to me.

In saying that PvP and RP do not mix, I am simply making the observation that the two systems are, really, in two different fields. Combat actions are done instantaneously, while far simpler emotes will most likely take a fair bit longer to initiate. Furthermore, emoting while in combat will likely put one at a huge disadvantage - a disadvantage that they should not, ICly, have. You don't see a mage player, who must (arguably) constantly send out different spells to retain a dynamic composure, emoting - this is more or less impossible. The same can be said of the strategic placement of Knockdowns or anything else, really.

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Murex

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 2:16 AM

Player

Joined: 01 Dec 2009

If you aren't willing to change the way you do it, then you will continue to have the same things happen. Why not just break up your sentences?

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 2:23 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Quote:

If you aren't willing to change the way you do it, then you will continue to have the same things happen.

See: Underdark thread

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wereguy2

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 2:31 AM

Player

Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Not saying that I am not willing to change, I am stating my doubts about the system. *shrugs*

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 2:58 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

But there is no system here, only that which you are doing to yourself, i.e. steadfastly refusing to type shorter emotes because of a personal aesthetic.

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Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

wereguy2

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 3:04 AM

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Joined: 07 Mar 2010
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Psfsfch! I didn't say that!

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Yossarin

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 4:04 AM

Player

Joined: 23 Jan 2006

wereguy2 wrote:

Don't get into storyboarding or film production, then. Taking a simple action, such as a shrug, and rendering it a complicated action requiring more than a few words for the sake of description and couched significance may have a role, but not in the middle of an action sequence. That action sequence being defined by the possibility of danger, where time itself actually seems to play a role in the fate of those involved. If you amend your style to match the situation, you're contributing to the emotional experience of everyone involved. Quick, broken responses portray a tense or hurried situation, or at the very least, one where time is of the essence, even if the PC is keeping his Mary Sue cool.

When you do the opposite of what the situation calls for (which is sometimes appropriate and is a tactic that should be used sparingly), you run several risks, one of them being what happened to you, the other one being irritating the crap out of every one else who is on a thrill high and you suddenly tone down the drama by taking ten thousand years making a mostly useless and fluffy post about a god damn SHRUG, and another simply not being taken seriously by anyone else or having the egotistical "look at me I type macros" syndrome.

My main PC, as someone people may remember, can be either very tacit or throwing out massive walls of text. It really depends upon the situation, and I try to have a good measure of the mood and atmosphere and tailor my style to be appropriate (while retaining the character's complexity and significance...remember, less is often more!) When my PC does throw massive walls of text that are singular thoughts, it is my way of exhibiting the latent and unintentional impact of a high Charisma.

The massive walls of text the PC produces are (I hope) entertaining and interesting to read, and therefore don't earn any ire...plus I type quickly and don't edit myself too much so it doesn't take forever for them to come. But they're also very dominating. They stand out, they practically demand attention in a "beyond the fourth wall" way, and I think it works rather well to underscore the character's larger than life charisma...even when the character is trying to be passive or even overly intellectual and boring, the charisma comes through like a hammer smashing at the inside of your computer screen.

In action sequences, though, I keep the text short and flying. If lines overlap, all the better, as tense situations involving lots of people talking can indeed be confusing. And I stray from large descriptive emotes in action situations - give me the verb, and maybe an adverb stylizing the verb, and perhaps a subject noun (maybe with attached adjective or two for good measure, but usually adverbs and adjectives should be avoided because they're clunky and often just bog progress down) and that's all that's needed.

Is anyone laughing at this overanalysis yet? Please do, and try to forget the fact that I'm actually drop dead serious (because it is very embarrassing that I am!)

Bob

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 5:14 AM

Player

Joined: 04 Jan 2011

I am more amused tbh.

"you got 5 seconds to gtfo"

*begins to write poetry about a shrug or tries to at least but cant type quickly enough in the 5 seconds*

*gets killed and gets annoyed*

"but! I was trying to type out a particularly complex shrug!"

MoshingChris

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 5:25 AM

Player

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge

I actually also have that amusement.

Roleplayers in an online environment have a knack for making the simple, so fucking complicated that the effort looks puerile.

I don't care for complex emotes signifying simple gestures, I -know- what a shrug is.

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Gravemaskin

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 6:06 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Just FYI, I don't think it's allowed by the rules to kill someone without giving them the chance to respond so the whole "GTFO!!" thing then waiting 4 secs before killing them, doesn't really fly well.

Now if someone does insult you, snap at you or act like a jerk in general, you're perfectly free to bash their heads in without a long warning about how you're going to kill them for it! Hostile words can be just as hostile as a drawn weapon. So the whole "Please get out?" "Eff you, you expletive expletive expletive expletive expletive!" then blasting the crap out of the potty mouth, does fly. (as long as you hostiled properly)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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serbiris

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 6:24 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Sep 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia

Gravemaskin wrote:

It sounds kind of subjective to me, I dunno. People (and characters for that matter) have different ideas of what constitutes an insult and what doesn't. I doubt there's much disagreement over a string of expletives, but it's still possible to misinterpret meaning (they could just be cursing in anger, perhaps with a misused pronoun, instead of insulting your character).

I think violent intent should be shown a bit more clearly before replying to insults with violence. I don't think it even needs to be long, as long as it gets the point across. Give them an out from the hole they've (perhaps unwittingly) dug themselves. Some characters just let their mouths run without considering actual violence.

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Grymia

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 6:30 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

Problem is, it's hard at times to obey the rules OOCly, while still sticking to the RP ICly.

There's some characters whom honestly, if they're getting into violence, they will try to show as LITTLE as possible they're about to kill you.

But, yes, the rules on Amia are what should be adhered to as best they can be.

Glyph

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 7:37 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

Quote:

as long as you hostiled properly

because it -is- the rule.

Gravemaskin

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 15:04 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls

Glyph wrote:

Quote:

as long as you hostiled properly

because it -is- the rule.

Indeed. Hostiling in POTENTIAL PvP situations rather than the second before you start the PvP gets the message across quite clearly.. and it keeps your char from having to make a big winded deal about it.

Example:
Character A - You're ugly, and you smell funny!
Character B hostiles character A.
Character B - Oh really? *evil grin* Do continue..
Character A is freaked out and makes a tactical retreat.

Character A - You're ugly, and you smell funny!
Character B - Oh really? *evil grin* Do continue..
Character A - Your mother is a she-cow and your father is a drow!
Character B - Keep going and I'll shut up that mouth of yours properly..
Character A keeps going until Character B hostiles
Character A then runs for it and/or complains about getting PvPd without proper time forehand or way out.

See the difference? Hostiling someone before a fight breaks out will help make your character's intentions quite clear where words alone might not. It's all IC as well as hostiling someone could easily be noticed by the hostiled party as your demeanor changing, tone, glare and so on. And it's avoiding the standard whining and complaining (and confusion) that follows hostiling JUST before you attack. This way everyone that's involved get plenty of time and know the situation. The typical way it's just chaos and half of the people involved aren't hostiled or even knew it was coming.

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Dieu_Le_Fera

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 15:53 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Jun 2009
Location: Philadelphia

Hostiling is an OOC action and is done for mechanical reasons... it honestly in my opinion should be ignored and the RP not change to what your character would continue to do. Just because I hostile a player when RP gets ugly doesn't mean PVP is about to begin... it is done just incase it does come to PVP, for me at least.

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Arcadence

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 16:46 PM

Player

Joined: 09 May 2010

Gravemaskin wrote:

Character A - You're ugly, and you smell funny!
Character B hostiles character A.
Character B - Oh really? *evil grin* Do continue..
Character A is freaked out and makes a tactical retreat.

What is metagaming for $500.

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Nekhy

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 16:50 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Location: A beautiful fowl house in A'dam

Arcadence wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

Character A - You're ugly, and you smell funny!
Character B hostiles character A.
Character B - Oh really? *evil grin* Do continue..
Character A is freaked out and makes a tactical retreat.

What is metagaming for $500.

It's also metagaming to ignore a threatening situation, because one knows one is kept safe by the PvP rules until the other hostiles.

In this case I rather live with metagaming the hostiling, and reacting ICly as the character would react to a situation that is very likely to escalate to a fight.

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Palin489

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 16:52 PM

Player

Joined: 21 Aug 2010

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

Yep. Just about that.

Grymia

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 17:00 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

Same here..

Dwagin

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 23:20 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

It does tend to wake the person up in their chair though.

Valve

Posted: Sat, Mar 19 2011, 23:33 PM

Player

Joined: 12 Aug 2009

I prefer a hostile situation without the use of mechanical hostile until it is time to actually PVP.

As a player with a character who speaks slowly and stutters... I always type a very short emote of 'thought' before hand.

- raises a finger up
- taps of the chin

Anything that lets the other players know I still have something on my mind that I want to convey.

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Sun, Mar 20 2011, 3:48 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

As a rule of thumb, the faster a particular situation is going physically, the more you want to break your phrasing and emotes up. It evens it out.

I've been taught the same thing with writing. If you want to slow a physically fast situation down, you break it up, give more detail, and use shorter sentences, to a certain extent. Also, it works to your advantage in NWN, because it gives the other person a chance to see "Oh, he's still emoting/saying something that my character would hear, not just staring me down."

Situation 1

Jack: "Look, if you don't leave right now, I'm killing you. I mean it. Right now *draws knife*."
Paul: [Types: *Shakes a little bit, then raises his hands to speak* You know. You're right. I was in the wrong. I'll just pick up my tab from the waiter, and I'll be on my-]
Jack: *Stabs Paul in the eye, because he's been going a minute without saying anything, and he figures Jack is trying to stall him out(might have buffs out or something).

Situation 2

Jack: "Look, if you don't leave right now, I'm killing you. I mean it. Right now *draws knife*."
Paul: *Raises his hands to speak*
Paul: "You know."
Paul: "*shakes a little bit* You're right. I was in the wrong..."
Jack: *Is still waiting to see what Paul is going to say*
Paul: "Ill just pick up my tab from the wait, and I'll be on my way. Deal?"
Jack: *Puts the knife away* "Deal."

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BlackDahlya

Posted: Sun, Mar 20 2011, 6:11 AM

Player

Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming

Dark Immolation wrote:

Situation 2

Jack: "Look, if you don't leave right now, I'm killing you. I mean it. Right now *draws knife*."
Paul: *Raises his hands to speak*
Paul: "You know."
Paul: "*shakes a little bit* You're right. I was in the wrong..."
Jack: *Is still waiting to see what Paul is going to say*
Paul: "Ill just pick up my tab from the wait, and I'll be on my way. Deal?"
Jack: *Puts the knife away* "Deal."

If memory serves, the last time I was in a hostile situation I did something similar to this. If it was not the first time, it was one of times PvP could happen.

It did not end in PvP, thankfully.

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Dwagin

Posted: Sun, Mar 20 2011, 15:53 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

You need to give them a chance to respond at the very least.

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Roleplay Etiquette & Conventions - PvP

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