AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I dunno, maybe it's just me but...

As a player of a character for which I'm taking -five- feats (stealthy, skill focus/epic skill focus hide/move silently) I question the fact that, while True Seing has been nerfed, Polymorph Self ( Umber Hulk ) allows to have permanent use of that 6th level spell.

Yes, it's not as convenient as -real- True Seing, I do concur. It takes a round to Polymorph, then one to UnPolymorph.

But , up till now, my character has had few successful attempts at spying on a group. All that because the opposing characters, of course, either cast the spell or quaffed a potion. I've seen so many Umber Hulks they should call it Umber Hulk Self.

Oh, I know, line-of- sight. There are ways to circumvent it, kinda.

In any case, i've tested. In Pvm my char, at level 16 has enough to hide practically everywhere. One absolutely does -not- need all those feats in PVM.

Think about it. The ecl 30 char with hide/ms 100+ spies on a group. Wanting to make sure they're not followed, a level 4 Fighter quaffs the Polymorph potion he just found and spots the Epic Rogue!

Yes, almost everyone does it.

Anyways, not likely to change. But at least if we could have an explanation. But what's the use, for a caster, to invest in Spot, really. You can save those precious skill points and still manage with that one spell. (Which most do, i've seen three Umber Hulks once in a group of six)

I don't know... I both love the true sight on amia, and hate it.

It really kills all spy RP
But at the same time it's very convenient and De-Powers a lot of the Hipsters out there

I think as long as HiPS spamming is a viable PvP style, there should be a viable answer to it. If it's true, though, that a HiPS nerf is impending (i.e., a cooldown timer) then maybe your concern should be revisited in a different light, once that nerf is in place.

Lizzie wrote:

I think as long as HiPS spamming is a viable PvP style, there should be a viable answer to it. If it's true, though, that a HiPS nerf is impending (i.e., a cooldown timer) then maybe your concern should be revisited in a different light, once that nerf is in place.

Cant do anything but agree

This topic again?

Well as a matter of fact Umberhulks aren't even ment to have TS. They have dark vision and tremorsense out to 60 ft. And Pseudo dragons have blindsight. Aka, I think they should get a big spot and listen upgrade and see invis but be stripped off ts. Same goes for dragons tough.

Quote:

A creature with tremorsense automatically senses the location of anything that is in contact with the ground and within range. Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water.

If no straight path exists through the ground from the creature to those that it’s sensing, then the range defines the maximum distance of the shortest indirect path. It must itself be in contact with the ground, and the creatures must be moving.

As long as the other creatures are taking physical actions, including casting spells with somatic components, they’re considered moving; they don’t have to move from place to place for a creature with tremorsense to detect them.

Quote:

A pseudodragon can locate creatures within 60 feet by nonvisual means (mostly hearing and scent, but also by noticing vibration and other environmental clues). Opponents the pseudodragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the pseudodragon.

Each to their own, this is just one of those things you need to be prepared for....

Some of us have characters who *gasps* won't have any SD levels!

Unbelieveable but true.

But anyways, i've said what I had to say.

Edit: Oh, and aren't at ALL built for pvp.

TormakSaber wrote:

This topic again?

New players, Old questions. Same old same old

Very_Svensk wrote:

I don't know... I both love the true sight on amia, and hate it.

It really kills all spy RP
But at the same time it's very convenient and De-Powers a lot of the Hipsters out there

I'm confused, how does TS depower SDs? Default TS would do that, Amia-style makes it more fair for them (Yes, I said fair, because unlike in PnP a caster can get X more TS spells every 15 min as opposed to once per 'day').

As for the topic, I think it's silly. Mages don't invest in Spot because they don't get spot. So familiars and Polymorph Self are their only means of reliably seeing hidden people. It's one of the reason mages are so nasty in general. Just be happy TS isn't the default spell, herp.
I should also point out that talking about familiars and summons and such is a waste of time since they are getting overhauled currently.

Not having SD levels doesn't matter. Hiding is hiding, with or without HiPS.

Umberhulks should be able to see hiders, because it's called Tremorsense for a reason. They should reasonably be able to see someone standing there, or maybe just moving around.
As for pseudos, is blindsight basically echolocation? Because then yes, they should be able to see you. Bats, man. Bats.

Aren't there about to be a bunch of changes to companions and familiars? Probably we should hold any griping about pseudodragons until then. Could be your concerns there have already been acted on.

Lizzie wrote:

Aren't there about to be a bunch of changes to companions and familiars? Probably we should hold any griping about pseudodragons until then. Could be your concerns there have already been acted on.

COPYCAT! >8U

Naivatkal wrote:

I should also point out that talking about familiars and summons and such is a waste of time since they are getting overhauled currently.

Note there is a 60 ft range to tremorsense.. Right now its unlimited.

Even with umberhulks and dragons hiding n shadowdancing is still one of the most powerful things you can do on amia. Unless they are a dedicated spot build, umberhulk form, dragon form, rak form you own everything else. Ild say don't fix what's not broken, get a scroll and unpolymorph them or use traps.

phalanxyrian wrote:

Note there is a 60 ft range to tremorsense.. Right now its unlimited.

Kind of kills the 'Spying' angle anyways, even at 60ft, as most smart folks tend to go to a small enclosed space and whisper.

DustSpray101 wrote:

Kind of kills the 'Spying' angle anyways, even at 60ft, as most smart folks tend to go to a small enclosed space and whisper.

Which is the point of protecting yourself from spying. There are many ways to do that even without SD detection spells. You just need to get creative.

Yep. Those who are aware that there are SDs among you that might (gasp!) spy on you do not discuss secrets in the open. Once they get to a sealed location, they scan (again, gasp!) the area for any intruders, because that is what a security conscious person would do.

On one hand, if you consult your secret plans in plain sight without checking for spies or completely ignoring the fact that there are NPCs nearby that might hear you, you deserve to be spied on more then once until you get wiser. Super secret Evil/Good/whatnot meetings in a publicly accessible area are a bad idea, even if you do umber-hulk scan or whatnot. As a SD/spy/whatnot, you should be aware that someone can scan you at any time, otherwise its sort of unfair. Besides, the best spies do not rely on staying unnoticed. Effective spies sit right there, among the plotting people, sometimes even giving them wrong advice and being thanked for it ;P After all, the term "Infiltration" that is pretty much part of the spy job is not thrown needlessly. I don't remember a single spy related story, be it FR oriented or not that would have the spy use HIPS or stealth constantly (unless they were stealing stuff or planting bugs or whatnot). More often then not, "hide in plain sight" means that you are right there, next to the people you are spying on as a person they trust.

On the other hand, if as a SD you stealth follow someone to a closed off, private area and then whine when you get detected, you deserve whatever punishment happens to you. Remember, SD and even HIPS is not a "whee, I am invisible and you cant do shit about it" method, it is a "I use my natural surroundings to hide myself" thing. The only thing HIPS does, according to IC descriptions, is give you the ability to momentarily manipulate shadows in order to hide yourself using traditional means. It requires a shadow half your size and is easily breakable. Once you are hidden, you do rely on your natural surroundings, so its logical that spells that allow other people to see you will do just that - ;et them see you. Again, instead of being surprised that people react in mean, violent ways when they discover that a stealther is sitting on their ass in their own house, you might want to pick a different approach when spying on someone. Questionable morals that spies have to employ to get close to their targets are part of any good spy story.

Last edited by psycho on Wed, Jul 27 2011, 23:28 PM, edited 1 time in total.

*raises hand* For the record, this is not about hiding in people's home but more in the likes of "hiding behind a tree in the Forest". At least for me it is.

Bah then again, I don't think many will agree with me. After all, how many play almost pure rogues without SD levels out there? *shrugs*

I'll deal with it, and if I get bored of it all and it isn't fun anymore i'll just make one of those 50+ab 50+ac crit immune Powerbuild alot of people have. (joke)

psycho wrote:

Bah then again, I don't think many will agree with me. After all, how many play almost pure rogues without SD levels out there? *shrugs

*Raises hand*

Can also say I've done quality sneaking up on people with that character too.

Naivatkal wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

I don't know... I both love the true sight on amia, and hate it.

It really kills all spy RP
But at the same time it's very convenient and De-Powers a lot of the Hipsters out there

I'm confused, how does TS depower SDs? Default TS would do that, Amia-style makes it more fair for them (Yes, I said fair, because unlike in PnP a caster can get X more TS spells every 15 min as opposed to once per 'day').

As for the topic, I think it's silly. Mages don't invest in Spot because they don't get spot. So familiars and Polymorph Self are their only means of reliably seeing hidden people. It's one of the reason mages are so nasty in general. Just be happy TS isn't the default spell, herp.
I should also point out that talking about familiars and summons and such is a waste of time since they are getting overhauled currently.

Not having SD levels doesn't matter. Hiding is hiding, with or without HiPS.

Umberhulks should be able to see hiders, because it's called Tremorsense for a reason. They should reasonably be able to see someone standing there, or maybe just moving around.
As for pseudos, is blindsight basically echolocation? Because then yes, they should be able to see you. Bats, man. Bats.

PC's cast the Amia version of TS. Umber Hulk, pseudodragon and dragon all have Bioware default TS.

psycho wrote:

Bah then again, I don't think many will agree with me. After all, how many play almost pure rogues without SD levels out there? *shrugs*

BWAHAHA

Wait, what? I can't tell if you were joking on this part. SD levels don't matter when it comes to hiding. Why does this keep being brought up as if it's some sort of deciding factor in the sneaker/umber hulk/psuedo discussion?

ainjyll wrote:

PC's cast the Amia version of TS. Umber Hulk, pseudodragon and dragon all have Bioware default TS.

*nodnod* Right, I was just wondering if there's anything lore-wsie that they are classified as. Sorta like they have TS but it's called tremorsense or something. Doesn't really matter lol

I wasn't joking.

Hiding in plain sight implicates that you're hiding from someone who can see you, and then you hide in his face, so he knows you're there, but not -where-.

HIPS can allow you to easier "run away" or for "PVP", spamming it.

The argument was that if UmberHulk/whatever True Sight where nerfed it would be unbalanced for those with HIPS. I can agree, they could fade in/fade out at their leasure, striking a few hits here, a few hits there, with near no chance of being noticed if investing in enough hide/ms. A true PVP killer.

Whereas, for a non SD, well, at least for me....Hide is used more as a means of exploration, to travel to places where my char would die in seconds, find some secret chests, gems, sell information about the areas she's discovered. And spying. Thus, for mostly RP reasons. And with True Sight on Umber Hulks and pseudodragons, it kills the skill a little in regards to the spy part.

In theory, it doesn't kill the skill. But in practice, after seeing big groups spamming Umber Hulk shape every 5 minutes or so to se if someone was watching, or seeing the two mages in one group with pseudodragons, or some quaffing Polymorph potions because they saw the "hide bug when you come close to 10 feet from someone and they oocly see them", i'm not sure.

A good cornersneaker can do just as well as a Shadowdancer without giving up 6 levels and two feats for it.

Quote:

"hide bug when you come close to 10 feet from someone and they oocly see them",

This bug doesn't exist. Cite real problems if you're going to argue against a situation. there is noting wrong with spychecking.

If you turn into an umberhulk to fight a PvP fight with a Shadowdancer you are setting yourself up for the biggest asskicking since the kid with the gigantism problem in his foot was let loose in the ass factory.

As for RP spy checking its totally viable if you can get past how rediculously goofy it is to turn into a giant bug thing in the middle of nowhere. I mean for gods sake if you are so very afraid of shadowdancers then get some spot ranks.

If your classes arent those that have spot well sorry, you dont get to be eagle eye McKenzie the dancer slayer no matter how hard you struggle to substitute actually working at a spotting hunter-killer class with gimicky as shit spells and effects. Its like pure elves with voluptuous curves who are six and a half feet tall, it's retarded and makes you look stupid. Stop it.

And fellow dancers bitching about people having old school TS, get over yourself. Actually having consequences for being a pervy sneaky really elminiates the wheat from the chaff for dancers. HIPS and by slight extention a high Hide/MS score is not a golden ticket to being immortal. Stop treating it as such.

I would recommend being a different kind of spy. Try the more figurative meaning of hiding in plain sight. As in, not the class ability. Be perfectly visible, but so intrinsically trustworthy that people tell you things they'd keep secret from anyone else.

Then sell them out for $$$.

Yeah it could start a whole new kind of group RP. I am Commander Shepard and this is my favorite espionage on the server.

Perhaps. Good idea.

But not with 6 charisma and 33 dex. *nod nod*

She'd better stick to hiding.

Oh and what you're talking about is Bluff and Persuade, not "Hide/Ms"

I would much rather hide my intentions then hiding my body.

That being said, hiding in plain sight is where the fun's at.

You can hide in plain sight without HiPS ... you just gotta hide before you enter plain sight =D

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

"hide bug when you come close to 10 feet from someone and they oocly see them",

This bug doesn't exist. Cite real problems if you're going to argue against a situation. there is noting wrong with spychecking.

just to lighten the mood and perhaps speak abit of truth about this...overchewed subject..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpgDtoj73DQ

I guess the problem is that its quite easy to spot sneakers if you want to. Any character that has sorcerer, wizard, ranger or druid levels, or points in Use Magic Device, have access to either Shapechange or Polymorph self, with which you can spot anyone, regardless of their skill in hide/ms. So the amount of characters that have access to the spells is quite enormous since UMD is quite popular skill. Not to mention there are the polymorph potions available for all the characters that have the ability to uncork and drink it, aswell as the cloak of illusion with polymorph uses.

Currently, its equally hard to spy on a group of epic archmages, as it is to spying a group of low level fighters and rogues. Both have the same means of spotting you for sure if they really want to and remember to.

I dont know if Polymorph potions/scrolls or Shapechange scrolls are available for purchase in alot of NPC shops, but if they are, I wouldnt mind them being removed from the shops, at least after HIPS nerf. That would limit the morphing spells to the high level mages, druids and rangers. Rest of the player population would need to "survive" with player-scribed scrolls, wands and items, or by actually investing in spot/listen. Also, as that would limit the ways to spot sneakers quite drastically, it wouldnt necessarily be a bad thing to make True Seeing spell give +50 spot, which is the cap of skill bonuses. That would make people with skill points invested in spot somewhat resistant to sneakers, but the very skillfull sneakers would still be safe from it, unless you are opposed by a multi-classed wisdom-heavy cleric or druid with maxed spot, then its a matter of who has more feats / ability / luck. As it should be in that case.

The main problem in my eyes is that the usage of polymorph/shapechange is free. People are using the spells, so that they dont need to invest to spot/listen. While the sneakers need to invest to both hide and move silently, no question of it.

Simply put, IMO, Stealth isn't a catchall that is supposed to make you the perfect spy. It really helps when you have the element of surprise, but there's a lot more to it than that. And if your argument is that it's too easy to spot sneakers now, but that the rest of the server will be able to "survive" off of caster-made items, I don't see the point. The same tools are available. It doesn't limit it anything at all, just makes them slightly tougher to get a hold of.

I didnt say rest of the server will be able to survive off of crafted items, I said they will need to survive off of them. Limited availability of the items will have logical effect that you wont be seeing those spells being used that often anymore, at least not in the hands of just anyone who can afford to buy them from Wiltun or elsewhere.

Well, someone might create a polymorph scroll/wand factory with a wizard, but it is still an improvement over the fact, that at the moment you dont need to make any kind of effort and just purchase the scrolls from NPC shops.

Granted, for wizards, sorcerers, rangers and druids, this change wouldnt matter at all, they have their spells that do the same as always. Characters with UMD, can get their hands on these spells, but they will need to pay and interact with a PC that is able to craft wands or scribe scrolls of the spells in question, which promotes RP and increases the cost of acquiring the spells a great deal over the current state.

At least the polymorph potions should be removed. Shouldnt that potion be impossible to make anyway, since its a 4th level spell?

That way theres no loophole for characters without any UMD, spot, listen or magical ability to spot even the most highly skilled spies.

Quote:

At least the polymorph potions should be removed. Shouldnt that potion be impossible to make anyway, since its a 4th level spell?

While the spell is lv 4, the innate level for each of its subspells, its forms, are lv 3.

Quote:

That way theres no loophole for characters without any UMD, spot, listen or magical ability to spot even the most highly skilled spies.

I wouldn't say it's a loophole, I'd say it's balancing. The alternative is that you must be those things in order to spot pretty much any sneaker, not just the highly skilled ones. In other words, your regular meleers who don't dip UMD of all things get screwed over. There's absolutely no way to counter someone in stealth at that point unless you keep spot maxed 100% of the time, and somehow that happens to be your battle gear as well.

Dark Immolation wrote:

While the spell is lv 4, the innate level for each of its subspells, its forms, are lv 3.

And that makes it brewable? I dont think you are able to brew it as an PC though, just for the reason that it is a level 4 spell.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I wouldn't say it's a loophole, I'd say it's balancing. The alternative is that you must be those things in order to spot pretty much any sneaker, not just the highly skilled ones. In other words, your regular meleers who don't dip UMD of all things get screwed over. There's absolutely no way to counter someone in stealth at that point unless you keep spot maxed 100% of the time, and somehow that happens to be your battle gear as well.

I dont see why every single class/character out there should be able to spot sneakers? How is that for balance that a sneaker cannot spy/hide from anyone?

If you do not invest in spot, nor listen and you do not possess either artificial or natural ability with magical spells, why should you have a sure way to spot a character that has practised his skills in stealth and espionage for years?

You can have max DEX, max hide/move silently, skill focuses, epic skill focuses, stealthy feat, +50 skills from items and then the lvl 1 fighter your spying on, drinks down a morphing potion and spots you in an instant. If that can be called balance, then I am quite stunned.

Im not suggesting to remove the whole darn spell, just making it a great deal harder to obtain. And at least near impossible for those without the necessary abilities. If you lack those, and are truly so scared of spies, invest in spot/listen, or use other means to clear a room.

Hells, if someone is in stealth, it doesent make him a ghost, choking powder gets the job done just as well.

I'd be careful what you wish for. Bioware True Seeing has some limitations that a lot of people don't know about and/or forget and will therefore chatter away after they've used their Poly Self et al in the false belief they've cleared the room.

Paranoid and knowledgeable people do not fall foul of these limitations and if the forms were nerfed, would use the other means of security which are watertight but more timeconsuming.

I wonder what would happen if they were removed, though. Would you immediately shift your complaint onto people with 8WIS who took a skilldump and a feat for 100 Spot/Listen and became able to detect even the most pimped Hide/MS DExer after a dozen or so re-rolls(which is around a minute), I wonder?

Uberuce wrote:

I'd be careful what you wish for. Bioware True Seeing has some limitations that a lot of people don't know about and/or forget and will therefore chatter away after they've used their Poly Self et al in the false belief they've cleared the room.

Not sure what you are referring to, except the fact that True Seeing doesent make give you x-ray vision, so technically you can hide...say under a desk, and the mage viewing the room with true seeing should not see you. Unless he peeks under his desk. However, as it has been discussed before, Umber Hulk has tremorsense, so anyone in that form would "feel" the presence of anyone in the room. Though does tremorsense work indoors with floors the same way it does in caverns where the hulks usually dwell?

Uberuce wrote:

Paranoid and knowledgeable people do not fall foul of these limitations and if the forms were nerfed, would use the other means of security which are watertight but more timeconsuming.

Is that a bad thing really? More RP spent on security, instead of the "Wait a moment" *casts polymorph and views the room once* "Ok, lets talk." Is it bad that you can also clear the room with a spell, or choking powder, or by physical means, just brings more variety to the anti-spy defences, rather than just the one spell.

And anyway, I have not at any point said that the forms should be nerfed nor do I want them to be nerfed, I would just like to reduce their availability in NPC shops and therefore in general.

Uberuce wrote:

I wonder what would happen if they were removed, though. Would you immediately shift your complaint onto people with 8WIS who took a skilldump and a feat for 100 Spot/Listen and became able to detect even the most pimped Hide/MS DExer after a dozen or so re-rolls(which is around a minute), I wonder?

Hardly, if they do a skill dump on spot, get +50 spot worth of gear and epic spot focus, then I dont see any reason as to why they shouldnt see anyone they can see. If they have 8 wisdom, they would still struggle to see a dex-heavy sneaker with some feats and +50 skills from gear aswell. Thats down to luck, and contest of ability, and in my eyes, that is entirely fair and fun for both sides. Spotter can either see the one hiding, or he cant, depending on his roll.

After all, it should be hide/ms against spot/listen, not hide/ms against the amount of polymorph scrolls you have.

Uberuce wrote:

I'd be careful what you wish for. Bioware True Seeing has some limitations that a lot of people don't know about and/or forget and will therefore chatter away after they've used their Poly Self et al in the false belief they've cleared the room.

Yay for line of sight boosts to listen checks.. *hides behind a tree*

I'm in two minds about this, but that is because I'm a little crazy, I guess.
On one hand (a smaller hand) it is people using the resources available, and as such it is all good.
On the other hand, with a spot of giganticism.. It still makes me chuckle to see underdark creatures charging around the forest/town/whatever. It looks silly, and you shouldn't do it. Also, it means that there is a little (mechanical) need to bother with spot and/or listen, so you can minimise the expenditure on it knowing you can maximise other (pure combat) areas. Assuming it is a cleric/druid/whatever with detection as a class skill, at least.

*Turns into a Rakshasa and stands by the crossroads, knowing the population of seasoned adventurers and hard-bitten heroes won't bat an eyelid to the evil demon-spawn-kitty.. in fact, maybe want to pet it, because it's cuter than the hulk...*

I hear you, people neglect spot/listen, because they know that if a need rises, they can always run the shop and buy a polymorph scroll to check their secret bases for any spies with no chance of failure.

Its like a spy were to neglect hide/move silently because they know that they can just get a scroll of invisibility. And that invisibility spell would be impossible to pierce with any means.

Lord Jarski wrote:

Its like a spy were to neglect hide/move silently because they know that they can just get a scroll of invisibility. And that invisibility spell would be impossible to pierce with any means.

Well, you ~could~ use silence (insta-win vs. listen checks), camouflage, one with the land, mass camouflage, etc.. to boost hide.. - remember to do silence last though.

The thing that bothers me about the whole situation is you can focus an entire character's build around being a sneaky little shit, and Joe Blow can overcome that by visiting the bloody corner store and grabbing a few Bioware-TS-on-the-go scrolls.

Worried about dedicated sneaks? You should be. So hang out with a dedicated spotter. Somehow, it should take a greater investment to catch a master sneak than a few thousand gold.

It would be awesome if more people invested a bit into spot or listen, and a bit of gear. I find it enjoyable having to keep active tabs on who can see you and who can't.

The flip side of the coin is that hips is broken as shit in pvp. If you have 110+ hide there's no feasible way anyone can find you in combat gear without going umbermode and leaving themselves vulnerable.

Ummma wrote:

Well, you ~could~ use silence (insta-win vs. listen checks), camouflage, one with the land, mass camouflage, etc.. to boost hide.. - remember to do silence last though.

Well it doesent help against Umber hulk spotters though and it has short duration, especially if you need to cast it from a scroll. And even if you have a bard sneaker with 60 round silence, most secret meetings where youd like to be spying outlast that with ease, and recasting it isnt really an option since it pops you right out of stealth.

I completely agree with you Freshmen. And about HIPS, as we've heard, HIPS is getting a nerf, a timer apparantely. So after that, what do shadowdancers, and sneakers have? No chance to spy on anyone, and a nerfed Hips... Not very attractive. Since the PvP side of sneakers is being nerfed, the spying side should be helped in my opinion by making it harder/costlier to obtain Polymorph spells. It would force people to at least consider taking some spot/listen to counter sneakers, as it should be.

Guys, seriously. Do not compare staying in hide next to someone to spying. Its insulting to real spies ;P

How do real spies get around truesights and tremorsenses then? I would very much like to know.

Okay, True seeings as such can be voided by remaining behind a solid object. But tremorsenses? How? Really?

And if your referring to spying through infiltration, not everyone wants to be a charming bard that can talk his way in to any organization and listening on the conversations out in the open.

EDIT: OH WAIT! All you need is a Tom Cruise mask, some ropes, and you need to fool the persons you want to spie on to a place with an enormous amount of room at the attic/roof/balkons.

psycho wrote:

Perhaps. Good idea.

But not with 6 charisma and 33 dex. *nod nod*

She'd better stick to hiding.

Oh and what you're talking about is Bluff and Persuade, not "Hide/Ms"

My point is still that you shouldn't take the belief that god-like dexterity and stealth training alone is sufficient for spying. Focus on stealth and you're overspecialised - even if polymorph wasn't widely available, you'd still run afoul of dedicated spotters who I believe generally still have an easier time of boosting their skills than sneakers (Amia-TS & Clair, good +spot items about, whereas the +hide spells are a little bit more elusive). Not to mention that a spotter can hide whether or not they've spotted you... see someone hulk out or pull a dragon out of their pants and you know to book it. A good spy is adaptable, and not just pump the numbers to high heaven... you'll still get a chance to exercise your hide skill, it just won't be the be all and end all. Let's face it, if it was, people would avoid saying it at all.

I don't put much stock in bluff/persuade/intimidate skills, as far as I know it's generally not enforced between PCs? (just as well because it can be kind of subjective and screwy). Especially when people think opposing them with the ever-versatile spot skill is fair (particularly when untrained checks are involved... the idea that no one can tell a lie without dedicating a portion of their training to it is laughable. Ha ha! Hah). Not that I think the other side of the fence makes any sense (pump bluff to 100+ and in theory you should be able to convince most of the server's characters to give you all their money?). So I for one am just going to pretend those skills don't exist for the most part, and drop ranks in them purely for flavour/saving pocket change in Khem. Let the words do the talking, not the numbers!

That aside! I wouldn't worry too much about it. Spying is only one of the things you can do with heavy stealth skill investment. If the diplomatic spy ain't the type of character you want to play, fair enough (though even low-cha might be able to use themselves effectively in that area). If the hulk/pocketwyrm is getting you down, just try to focus elsewhere. Or wait for them to slip up.

tl;dr: I ramble.

Lord Jarski wrote:

How do real spies get around truesights and tremorsenses then? I would very much like to know.

They build up trust with whoever they are trusted by, adopt a fake identity, maintain it for days, months, sometimes years if its necessary. They report on the enemy movements to whoever is their "true" employers. They gather information that they use to blackmail people, they make friends in the right person and trade information for one that they need.

In extreme cases, they gather enough trust to advance through the ranks of the organization that they are spying on, playing the role of double agent well enough that they actually crush the organization from within.

A good spy utilizes hide/ms/break in abilities only when he needs to steal vital documents or plant something, eventually sneaks in somewhere to see what the people inside are doing, but once on the inside he very quickly adopts an identity of someone, like say knocking a guard out and dressing up as him.

Now, assassins or special operatives rely on hide/ms much more then spies do, but their objectives rarely end with "listen in on someone". They are sent in to kill someone, recover a hostage, etc. As such, they avoid people in general unless absolutely necessary. Just saying. Staying next to someone in hide and hoping that omg they do not notice you is not proper tradecraft in both modern and pretend espionage.

A hide/ms character is not a spy. A hide/ms character is a thief. Thieves avoid contact in general.

On a different note, if you try to solo a SD with HIPS without any way to counter it, you are just asking for a beating. Don't do it. Don't cry for a nerf of HIPS because you fail to adapt to a given situation.

I can see the point of hips being hard to counter in one on one situations, but- in my experience (which is admittedly all against monster spawns and not players) there is already some counter-balances to hips- for example, if I keep my SD hidden too long, the monsters swarm in on and beat down the rest of the party, so it takes some finessing (and sometimes doing some quick hops in and out of stealth to make sure I get the attention of the monsters I want) to be useful in a support role.

It makes me totally twitch to see talk of hips nerfs since, as far as I know, Amia is the only populated server that has both RP and relatively unmolested Shadowdancers. Sneaky tactics makes for great char concepts and play styles without the need for min/maxed powerbuilds.

As far as spying goes, hiding and sneaking in is just one way to go about it. Maybe trying to broaden it out a bit (Like starting with the Spy Job skill and branching out from there, building on tactics learned from assignments) and approaching spying in a manner that is role-played out for both sides involved might be an option to try before worrying about mechanics.

((Just for example, in various disguises, Spy character loiters where intended targets gather. After a while, spy character works out that target has a drunken dwarf buddy who is clearly the weak link. Spy buys dwarf a few drinks, drugs one and offers to escort him home. Spy watches 'home' for a few days and learns target meet every Tuesdays for crumpets at 7. Spy shows up at 6:30, climbs up into a tree and watches from a not-checked vantage point.))

I would very much rather have some dedicated spotters, than everyone being a dedicated spotter.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

"hide bug when you come close to 10 feet from someone and they oocly see them",

This bug doesn't exist. Cite real problems if you're going to argue against a situation. there is noting wrong with spychecking.

Agreed. There is a tell on closeup sneaks, and it is WYSIWYG, not a bug.

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