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Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
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Author:  Simeron [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 16:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
As I ranted and raved about the changes to HiPS, I will also say thank you for making these skills better and more dependent on SD level. Its nice to see those levels meaning more and I do thank you.

I don't just complain at least... :lol:

Course now I got to decide if 3 Evades is worth losing my special...lol..darn it....think I will stick with my special still but some testing will need to be done.

The Shadow Daze is going to be interesting to be sure....
Author:  serbiris [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 16:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
I'll complain! I was so sure about dropping 4 SD levels in a rebuild and now I have an incentive to keep them! Dammit Sune. You did good.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 16:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
What changes?

Edit: Found 'em. Me gusta.
Author:  Bini [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 19:32 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Shadow evade still needs moar powa. The shadow daze is so cool, however...

(20 - 6) x 18 = 252

300 - 252 = 48

So, why is the cooldown at 20 only 30 seconds? :(
Author:  Anatida [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 19:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
*Two Thumbs Up!*
Author:  Dergaii [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 19:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Nice work, this definitely puts the other abilities of the SD more in the playing field and is a boost to those taking more than 6 levels in it. An elegant solution and very much so in line with the class lore.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 19:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Bini wrote:
Shadow evade still needs moar powa. The shadow daze is so cool, however...

(20 - 6) x 18 = 252

300 - 252 = 48

So, why is the cooldown at 20 only 30 seconds? :(

Typo! Shadow Daze cool-down is every level after 5, not 6.
Author:  Bini [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 20:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Uh oh, but shadow daze is 5 rounds, and at level 20 the cooldown is 5 rounds... IC what U did there. :P
Author:  Naivatkal [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 20:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Bini wrote:
Uh oh, but shadow daze is 5 rounds, and at level 20 the cooldown is 5 rounds... IC what U did there. :P


Image
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 20:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
I'll note Mosh suggested the cool-down timer, so I don't get credit for that. :D

But yeah, now you can make level 20 shadowdancers and enjoy your near untouchable strength. maybe.
Author:  Gobbledygook [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 21:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Fantastic!
Author:  TormakSaber [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 21:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
You people change on a dime. Hilarious.
Author:  Simeron [ Tue, Mar 06 2012, 21:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Well, if you guys and gals want to put the HiPS back like it was and take this boons back...fine by me.

Just saying... :lol:

But despite my reputation, I do give credit where I believe credit is due just like I bitch where I think bitching needs to happen. Its only fair.

Both these changes give reason to go beyond the mere 6th level of SD that gets you HiPS...I'm hoping it will be enough to get a few to go to 10 at least.

time will tell
Author:  Selmak [ Wed, Mar 07 2012, 4:52 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Well at the very least it opens up more offensive options than pumping out knockdowns.
Author:  Gobbledygook [ Wed, Mar 07 2012, 14:05 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
PaladinOfSune wrote:
But yeah, now you can make level 20 shadowdancers and enjoy your near untouchable strength. maybe.

I have committed to making a level 20 Shadowdancer! I'll let you all know how it goes... when I Daze you all and hide for 30 seconds. :twisted:
Author:  D4rk5p1d3r [ Wed, Mar 07 2012, 19:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Mindblank potions null all daze effects. Also you can chug potions while still being under the effects of a daze, therefore you can chug a mindblank when you're dazed and now you are no longer dazed.
Author:  Gobbledygook [ Wed, Mar 07 2012, 22:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Shh! ;)
Author:  psycho [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 0:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
D4rk5p1d3r wrote:
Mindblank potions null all daze effects. Also you can chug potions while still being under the effects of a daze, therefore you can chug a mindblank when you're dazed and now you are no longer dazed.


Oh dear, please change that. I don't play a SD but seriously, it's their only valuable combat feat.

( Hips being more an evasive manoeuvre )

You just gave -everyone- on the server immunity to their daze effect BTW. Oops.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 0:37 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
What? It's always been that way. This is how daze works.
Author:  Driftwood [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 0:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
TormakSaber wrote:
You people change on a dime. Hilarious.


Welcome to politics... :lol: and on topic. - I like it. It's very balanced.
Author:  Moth [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 2:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Considering how easy it is to get spot and listen, I'm glad to see the Shadowdancer moving away from being sneaky and more toward being tactical.
Author:  Artum [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 14:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
PaladinOfSune wrote:
What? It's always been that way. This is how daze works.


D4rk5p1d3r wrote:
Also you can chug potions while still being under the effects of a daze, therefore you can chug a mindblank when you're dazed and now you are no longer dazed.


I thought you were dazed meaning you couldn't take an action. Drinking a potion is an action isn't it?

Not talking about drinking it before hand and then being immune to the spell or whatever. I mean you get hit with shadow daze, drink a mindblank and then get over it.

Kinda defeats the entire purpose of the daze spell doesn't it?
Author:  Gobbledygook [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 14:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Nope. When you're dazed, you sort of stumble around unable to perform most actions. You can drink potions during this state, and also go into stealth mode.

When you're stunned, you're stuck in the one spot and unable to do anything. They're different states.
Author:  Selvec Darkon [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 21:16 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
I'm not entirely sure how someone who is dazed can perform the actions nessarcy to hide from their opponent effectively without sufering some serious penalties.
Author:  TormakSaber [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 22:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Quote:
Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round.
Author:  Gobbledygook [ Thu, Mar 08 2012, 22:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Well as far as NWN allows, when you're dazed you can drink potions and use stealth, and also walk around.

NWN Wiki:
nwn.wikia.com wrote:
Dazed creatures are in a partial state of stupor. They are unable to initiate attacks, cast spells or use skills and feats, but they can flee from combat at a reduced movement rate. Player characters can also drink potions while dazed


If it shouldn't be like that, should it be considered in 'Improving Amia'?
Author:  Slade [ Fri, Mar 09 2012, 7:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Dazed means dazed, stunned means stunned. There's a reason why they use 2 different words. And given the ridiculousness of Shadow Daze's DC formula, it most definitely should only be dazed.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Fri, Mar 09 2012, 16:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Not really, considering the Palemaster undead graft uses the same formula for instant death.
Author:  Tomato Sword [ Fri, Mar 09 2012, 16:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Also! Palemaster ability damage thing is permanent! xD I was shocked and horrified when I realized I can't remove it even using Greater Restoration walking around with 3 STR 3 CON.

Well. Permanent until server reset.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Fri, Mar 09 2012, 17:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
... That sounds like a bug then. Last I checked, most abilities for PM last 1 hour or round per level.
Author:  Tomato Sword [ Fri, Mar 09 2012, 17:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Well, it was there until the server reset and it definitely lasted longer than 1 IRL Hour (Which is longer than 2 IG Hour x 20 PM level. But knowing the particular player, he doesn't have 20 PM). Regardless of duration, Greater Restoration didn't work on it.
Author:  Innuendo [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 19:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
There's always the easy way out! A suicide. 8)

... And then have your buddy bring you back.
Author:  Tomato Sword [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 19:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Ugh.
Author:  Alkor [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 21:01 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Ya the way the daze effect works currently, is pretty pointless to basically non-mentionable. Everyone and their fey-mother has mindblank potions on hand. Daze used? Mindblank potion.... it never happened, and your immune to it happening again as long as that potion spell remains in effect.

I would like to see those under the daze effect, 'not' able to drink potions, aka, 'preform an action'.

Quote:
... A dazed creature can take no actions...


This should be applied imo.

The balanced absolute max for this ability should be around 20 sd levels = 38-40 dc check.

Lower sd levels, lower dc check.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 21:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
I have to agree. I've never understood why Daze is so different in NWN. Maybe Bioware wanted to make it more people-friendly?

At least, from what I can tell from the DND wiki, you can't do anything when Dazed.
Author:  Feonir [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 21:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Daze is mostly incompatible with Amia's PvP system.

Considering in Amia you have to first get permission, set hostile, engage heatsinks, see section 1.1 of the Pan-Amian warsaw accord, cite section 6 out loud while also reading subsection c dash 2 in case of subrace or other non-concordant accords. Draw weapons. Banter, set hostile again just incase the first hostile was too sudden and your foe went into a sort of terrified trance. Then maybe once the harvest moon wanes into europa we can get some fighting.

Where as ShadDaze is more for. Hey theres a guy! *Daze* *Stab while flatfoot* Excelcior! Which is expressly verboten under the above Pan-Amian warsaw pact of 2006.

Also Daze more or less speaks for itself, its like being drunk. The PnP flavor of shadowdaze is an illusion conjured by shadestuff by the dancer and presented to its target. I can sure as hell eat and drink while watching a movie or while drunk. And Daze is more or less the same kind of effect.

Now if someone wanted a not-useless ability request like a shadowspear. Uses the daze charge. d3 cold/negative damage per SD level. 60 Damage tops for a 10 sder for a round or half rounds of effort.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 21:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Completely ignoring the pointless blathering about the PvP rules:

Your argument is not being supported by anything. Someone can use Shadow Daze in combat after hostiling, so not sure what you are talking about there. I can see, though, that it's possible that for Balance we'd want to not have it be a full on Daze effect... though NWN has it that way.

Like said, Daze in PnP doesn't let you do anything, apparently. Though I don't have an actual sourcebook with me to confirm :v
Author:  Alkor [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 21:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
*written before Naivatkal's post in response to Feonir*

Ya well, alternates are on the table for not-useless and that's good. I applaud the effort to make sd appealing beyond lvl6. I'm just saying from a pure mechanical balance point of view, daze is one of those ability's you laugh at because, currently, it's so useless given the effectiveness of mind-blank potions, their availability, lack of restriction to use them, and how they are nearly unlimited.

It simply is what it is.

The dc check could be over 9,000 for the save and it would not matter given it's one potion away from- *poof*.

"You really wasted the time to cast that? -Kewl, free move to gain immunity to anything else mind-effecting."
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 22:01 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Well, I can see one benefit: They have to waste a round to use the potion, which invokes AoO, catches then flat-footed, etc. You might even be able to knock them prone.

Or! Escape tactic!
Author:  Alkor [ Sat, Mar 10 2012, 22:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Naivatkal wrote:
Well, I can see one benefit: They have to waste a round to use the potion, which invokes AoO, catches then flat-footed, etc. You might even be able to knock them prone.

Or! Escape tactic!



Comedy has its perks...

..as a shadowdancer build, you probably have sneak attacks, that are no longer very sneaky when the enemy sees you after you just used a daze. Six second cd on hips, okay, but, there goes a wasted potential second round of free sneak attacks, (or escape tactic!). If you cast daze while they're in range and in your face? ...who has the upper-hand then?

If your an sd mage, you have more effective spells to cast that are not so easily counter-able...what are you doing using daze effects?!?? *facepalm*
The confusion spell, for example, or fear, at least -something else- that is actually useful.
Author:  Gobbledygook [ Sun, Mar 11 2012, 1:04 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Daze is really effective when people don't expect it. It's not overly used because it's not the most powerful tactic, but if you use it the right way, it's a great escape or a great opportunity to get in some more attacks whilst a person stumbles around thinking 'Ah shit, why didn't I quickslot my mindblanks?!'
Author:  Selmak [ Sun, Mar 11 2012, 6:39 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Yeah, but once the mind blank is up, there's not much chance of getting it down any time soon, and even if you can dispel it off, there's nothing to stop the guy from chugging yet another mindblank potion.

As useful as Daze might be as an opportunistic attack, once you've used it once against someone who isn't brain dead, you're probably not going to get another opportunity.
Author:  O'Raghailligh [ Sun, Mar 11 2012, 13:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
QQ
Author:  Chai [ Mon, Mar 12 2012, 17:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
The alternative to that is "once the daze is up, youre screwed" (when the cooldown = duration time) - without a way to counter it, its just as bad as HIPS not having a cooldown when someone has epic level hide and move silently. It either becomes trivial, or it becomes the easy button. The way things are right now, theres a reason to become SD, but if their abilities werent counter-able, there would be no reason NOT to roll one.

Hilarity ensues when trying to keep track of different servers and how they have adapted to HIPS - some have ditched the ability completely, and some keep it a level 1 SD ability and then nerf TS which basically = if you didnt skill dump into detection skills you wont see it coming. Its probably the least agreed on ability as to what should be done with it. I grin at all the absolute statements made about it. Oberoni would be proud.
Author:  Alkor [ Mon, Mar 12 2012, 20:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Kay let's talk counters,

A. It's only duration= cd if your lvl 20 sd. That's a huge chunk of someone's build. (although I wouldn't mind if duration was lower so it's not just 'over' once you get hit). Balance comparison? Why does the barbarian fear aura hit 123 stat max? ...we're only talking 40 here. Max save obtainable is likely in the 50's range, barbarian defeats -anyone- without a mindblank up/fear immunity. (personally I think 'that' is op, yet it's in the module). Barbarians also have plenty of ab/dmg/ac in comparison to a 20sd who may not have as much. Feared targets are quite flatfooted. Their aura is also AOE, and can affect anyone when it's up, over and over...

B. If they are not lvl20 sds, then the dc check on this would/should be much lower. Typical lvl 6 or or even 10 should be laughable compared to the lvl20. If you have a decent will save, the only ones that would be scary using this ability would be the lvl 20s. (hence motivation to go that far in sd levels) I'm thinking 10sd, for a 20ish will save. 40 for the lvl20 sd.

C. Mindblank counters it, so have one up. If you get hit with this ability, your friends who are able to cast mindblank can remove it. (that favors assassination one on one pvp for dancers)

The only thing that seems to bug me is indeed the duration. I wouldn't mind if that was lowered so it's not just a 'you get hit with this, and your basically done' button. ..although we already have plenty of those in the module already. To be fair all of the 'one move to win' buttons should go the way of the dinosaur. I would rather things take more skill than 'click here'. (soooo glad timestop is gone) -and everything should have some sort of counter.

Earthquake spell? (reflex saves, and evasion/improved evasion) (The dmg/spamability of kd seems strong to me, but oh well. It does have counters)
Barbarian fear aura? (will save, fear immune, mindblank, this needs a better counter tho imo the save is way too high based on a skill stat)
Dev crit (Fort save, restoration scrolls, gs scrolls, silent spells?)
Wail of banshee (fort save, death immunity property)
Bigby (fort save, concentration check)
Sunburst (reflex saves, and evasion/improved evasion, restoration scrolls)
Fear (Will save, Mindblanks, fear immune)
Confusion (Will save, Mindblanks)

Overall I think everything should be counter-able if you want to be resistant to it, but I also think people need to decide due to limited powers on items, and limited skill points (spot/listen/discipline/ect). They should ask 'What do I want to be nearly immune to?" -and then build toward that using their build and the mythal system, which then leaves them potentially vulnerable to other moves.

Rock paper scissors? ...kind of, but you have multiple sets of gear potentially. I also think that builds with high saves all around, tanky as hells... yaaa those shouldn't exist imo unless their dmg/ab is gimped. To the point they're "Ha I'm immune to everything, but...I do no dmg". Then I'd be ok with it.

That's a system I'd have more fun in, but some people prefer 'Tag your it' in one move, well ok... then it's just whoever strikes first. Like archers with 10dmg and 1 hp. *yawn* imo. I'd rather have to figure out what their build is and what I'm facing off against, and then prepare to counter it. -as long as I have the option to counter it, I'm happier.



...annd that's why daze shouldn't be useless, yes I rant, I know. -to me, everything is related.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Tue, Mar 13 2012, 0:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Comparing eggs and steak is stupid.

Shadow Dancer even with the HiPS cooldown remains the best attrition class you can have.
Author:  Selmak [ Tue, Mar 13 2012, 5:53 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Granted, you're probably not going to get 15x damage when you attack from stealth, but the fact that you can re-stealth and try again makes HiPS really sexy, and the time you need to wait until you can HiPS again is acceptable.

More acceptable than waiting ten weeks to blow up a star, anyway. ;)
Author:  Chai [ Tue, Mar 13 2012, 23:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Yeah but who needs attrition when a 4X crit can take someone out in less than 6 seconds. Just handing the advantage over to casters again. When something gets nerfed, all of the stuff that didnt get nerfed got a proxy boost against them. There were likely too many casters who win 98% of their picked fights moaning about how they cant win the other 2%. 6 seconds is time enough to get the right spell off. Attrition still works well in PVE, but in PVP it gets roflpwned.

Spell swords rule amia because everything else that could be built to crush them has been nerfed. When the game is played "as is" they are middle of the road.

I dont mind because I could care less about PVP, just stating the ovbious Oberoni I observe. You are absolutely right, people do abuse F1 and F2 to not get hit, but only in the same way any other min maxed powerbuild player abuses what they built for.

The nerfer of builds is also the traffic cop who directs powerbuilders to the un-nerfed. -Dave Arneson - Gen Con.
Author:  Alkor [ Wed, Mar 14 2012, 0:24 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
So the reason given to not make the daze effect stronger is... (aside from steak and eggs, which has nothing to do with anything except breakfast)

"Hips is still really good."

...okay, well then, expect more people to stay at sd6, and not go any higher. I mean, just don't be surprised when that's what happens.

It would be nice to give them a reason to go higher, but if there is none, then there is none. It is what it is.

A daze effect that can be mind-blanked-away instantly via potion, is considered borderline useless from any pvp viewpoint. In pvm, saves are pretty high, better to just spam darkness which is like aoe-stun basically. -actually darkness in pvp matches daze if not surpasses it, and it's aoe. Ts and ultra vision are a 'tad' harder to acquire than mind-blanks. Supply is restricted a little more there, which ups usefulness, cause maybe you get a guy who doesn't have it on an item/spell.

*exaggerational amusement*
Mindblanks are on every corner, of every block, of every town in every forest, of every random desert and then some littered across the ground at random intervals. It's more popular than water, even when your sitting next to a lake, within sight range of the ocean, and you just stepped in a puddle. - your more likely to drink a mindblank potion.
Author:  Selmak [ Thu, Mar 15 2012, 2:57 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Changes to Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze
Powerbuilders are always going to build for power. There's more than one road, and they don't need a traffic warden to tell them which way to go.

The HiPS change was necessary to prevent abuse of the feat.

The changes to Shadow Daze/Evade make improvements to the class that are in no way intended to compensate for your inability to abuse that feat, just to clear up any misunderstanding. So if it doesn't go far enough for your tastes, well boo hoo.
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