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Whenever the DM's tell us to actually RP our class and not try flimsy ways of hiding major class features, we whine about it and ignore them.

This is my summary of my perception of the arguments made arguments against said rulings or opinions from the staff so far.

RDD's can't hide their wings behind pieces of cloth: "I don't want to be forced to accept the consequences of choosing my class."

PM's shouldn't just be able to hide their horrific nature by wearing long sleeves: "I don't want to be forced to accept the consequences of choosing my class."

BG's should always have their AoD on: "I don't want to be forced to accept the consequences of choosing my class."

While I understand that only the RDD thing is currently a rule, I don't want to be a hypocrite. Playing evil shouldn't just be something you do arbitrarily. Evil Dragons are evil dragons. Pale Masters are god damn necromantic abominations. Blackguards have sold their soul to an evil god for power. And if there is concern that you might not be able to hang out at major hubs and social centers because "I'm not a good guy" then there are other options. Tarkuul exists, the Triumvir Exists, Kampo's exists, Wiltun Exists. Not everything has to center around Cordor. And hell, last I checked Cordor didn't even make necromancy illegal. It's just frowned upon by those "adventurers" who keep hanging out there.

Now I know what some of you reading this are thinking. "You play a BG too, and you don't usually have AoD on most times."

Well I'm lazy. But from now on I'm leaving my Aura of Despair on. If it's duration wares off I'll just reactivate it. The staff made it an infinite use power for a reason. I'd like to try and encourage you guys to join me in playing your classes and accepting the consequences of said classes instead of using plywood-grade flimsy disguises to pretend to be "normal".

Normal is boring.

And in advance (since I know it will happen) AoD is an invisible aura, as are all auras. Anyone who metagames my aura being on to instantly know that my character is a Blackguard can go eat a dick.

And now I'm off to work.

I'd assume the fact that evil characters/faction usually get fucked over in some way if they don't constantly try to hide everything is to "blame" here, and even then there are people who'd metagame it. I doubt that is the only reason for it, of course, but I'd imagine that would at least be one of the main reasons for wanting to appear as normal as possible.

I agree with the rule of RP'ing your class and what you are saying in general. I think your post shows good initiative.

Quote:

Anyone who metagames my aura being on to instantly know that my character is a Blackguard

I hate this, as you mention. Couple and a half of years+ back I had a character who wouldn't knowingly go with/do anything with a BG, but there was one who tried to seduce my character and get them to trust this BG, it worked somewhat and if they had their Aura up and I was the type to be all like "I can feel an odd presence, you must be a BG, die!" it would have killed the RP of it all. My first BG, I put the Aura on way before it was changed to infinite uses, got together with a group and another RP'd they could sense more than just the feelings a BG aura would let off, they didn't attack me for it or anything by initiating PvP, but made it quite clear IC to my character that they were keeping an eye on him and making distance. It wasn't so bad as they weren't really screaming every where they recognise my character as being a BG without any indication besides the aura, but still seemed quite meta-game like, in my eyes.

I'd wish that meta-game aspect could be completely wiped out and I think a lot more would be willing to take the actual consequences of being whatever class as they come/happen in game, without the need of OOC info added to IC knowledge to meta-game and cause the consequences to fall in to place illegitimately, but meta-gaming and stopping it is tricky at best, unfortunately and not everyone realises they are meta-gaming at times. I know there has been a lot of confusion with things such as aura's in general, even more specifically AoD, I don't know who/how it started, but it's been brought up a few times for clarification on AoD being visible, as others have suggested otherwise.

Its not just aruas that are invisible to the naked eye but most spell VFXes are invisible unless stated otherwise. Premonition, mindblank, true seeing etc they arent actually visible either but the way nwn works it involves a lot of what-you-see-is-what-you-get. Therefore you can't really blame people that RP what they see since everyone might know have the spellcompendium memorized.

That said, there are ways to discern auras and spells and correct me if I'm wrong but I'm farily certain its a spellcraft check very similar to the check that is done when identifying which spell someone is casting.

Infact, a ruling should probably be made on what you can't and what you can see and or which circumstances you can see things. For example someone with true seeing and or a decent spellcraft could most likely tell what spells effects going on.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

And in advance (since I know it will happen) AoD is an invisible aura, as are all auras. Anyone who metagames my aura being on to instantly know that my character is a Blackguard can go eat a dick.

I'm glad you said this last part.

While I understand perceptions about Chromatic Kin and palemaster although niether are neccesarily evil, niether of them can be of good alignment. The AoD from what I've read can only be felt by enemies which to me means ones who are aware of the BG true nature. A BG usually will have a high or at least moderately high CHA and someone who makes everyone feel despair aint gonna have a high CHA. To me it almost seems like the AoD is something like a supernatural intimidation. It should never be metagamed to be used to identify a player as a BG IMO. The actions of said chr will eventually be the tell tale sign.

PEACE

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

And in advance (since I know it will happen) AoD is an invisible aura, as are all auras. Anyone who metagames my aura being on to instantly know that my character is a Blackguard can go eat a dick.

People seem to forget this rule alot so I might as well post it for everyone again...

What can you not expect from your fellow Amians?

Quote:

B1. You cannot expect that players own any DnD materials. The NWN box doesn't list it below "requirements' and neither do the signs in the Entry.

So the people you wish to eat a dick might not know that auras are invisible because again playing on Amia it is not expected everyone be some lore master who has every DnD book in the world, because as stated by the staff of said server... you cant expect them to own any....

Shak's aura is one of raw sexual magnetism. Please metagame this.

gravitas wrote:

Shak's aura is one of raw sexual magnetism. Please metagame this.

Careful Shak! Magnets can push away as well as pull. Your magnetism could end up repelling more than drawing in. :lol:

Or pulling the wrong way in

I don't think strawmanning a portion of the player base and ranting over it really serves any purpose. It makes for a pretty weak premise even though the conclusion is not terribly disagreeable (if presumptuous).

I also still disagree with the ruling that AoD should always be activated because it's not nearly as "hurr durr common sense" as the other two classes in question. Being sneaky, dishonourable and subversive is a damn trademark of the class. Many evil powers are devoted to sneakery and skullduggery. Blackguards even get sneak attack as a class feature. But apparently all of them are consigned to wear their supernatural BG badge which will be metagamed no matter how much the DMs say "Don't metagame". Metagaming is one of those tricky, often subconscious things that can be difficult to determine one way or another. Sometimes you'll be metagaming and not realise it. Sometimes it will look it and you aren't. Encouraging those situations is only going to lead to more trouble because there will be many of those situations in which the boundaries are pushed. Why not just avoid this particular issue?

A visible PM or RDD is pretty clear-cut as to what you're actually seeing, but even the ruling on AoD is all "you can't use it to ICly pinpoint a BG, even though that is exactly what you're doing as a player right now yes you as we speak." That's just pointless confusion. I can understand this "AoD is always on" thing but in P&P and RP-wise the aura is supposed to be invisible... which it's not, in NWN. So forcing its activation (especially when the aura specifically targets enemies in the description) doesn't really have the desired effect of "properly emulating the ability/class"... unless the desired effect is "encourage metagaming".

666WaysToHell wrote:

Or pulling the wrong way in

Shak doesn't have a wrong way in. Awww yeah.

Wait, what?

I am confused, so are you supposed to "accept the consequences of choosing my class" or are we supposed to "eat a dick" because your post seems to say I think we should "accept the consequences of choosing my class" but actually I do not want too so anyone trying to make me can "eat a dick".

Can you clarify please

From my limited experience of "evil" characters here, they are all God mode rp looking for ~any~ reason to pvp you because of their evilness and the rp reflects this because their every reply is sarcastic, insulting or sarcastically insulting, or sometimes just bloody minded in an attempt to goad a fight.

I realise and accept this ~may~ not be everyone and I accept my exposure on Amia is not as much as others, but having played evil aligned characters on other rp servers and pnp its somewhat disheartning that for those I have encountered so far it seems to be "I am evil therefore I want to kill everyone I meet"

Why is this relevant to this post, well as I mentioned I am confused as to if you want or do not want to accept your choices

because so far the ones I have met want to kill because they are evil but also seem to want to have no consequences of it.

QoB

Terra_777 wrote:

Infact, a ruling should probably be made on what you can't and what you can see and or which circumstances you can see things. For example someone with true seeing and or a decent spellcraft could most likely tell what spells effects going on.

That ruling has been made for some time. All VFX are visible IC except for the aura circles.

Make everything invisible after casting. No more issues.

It's not an issue now. Unless you mean auras, too, in which case I think it was mentioned somewhere that it makes auras buggy. Or maybe that's just persistent ones. I can't recall.

FastKev wrote:

gravitas wrote:

Shak's aura is one of raw sexual magnetism. Please metagame this.

Careful Shak! Magnets can push away as well as pull. Your magnetism could end up repelling more than drawing in. :lol:

So true... so true. So I guess I'm rping the aura right after all. >. <

I don't think your analysis is a fair one.

People by and large don't complain because they want to use flimsy excuses to not RP. I doubt anyone here will subscribe to that description. The crucial factor is in your very first words: "DMs tell us to."

Whenever someone tells you to do something a certain way, it should provoke critical review and resistance. That shows you're an independent individual with healthy confidence in your own judgement. Personally, I have no interest to associate with sheep and sycophants. The DMs are not always smarter than you. They're not better role-players by default, and they don't necessarily even have a better perspective on what Amia needs. Absorbing their recommendations uncritically is no better than ignoring them altogether. You should make up your own mind, and that means playing the Devil's Advocate from time to time.

Point being: not everyone who is critical and tries to present counter-arguments is actually against the general sentiment or an advocate of bad, lazy and watered-down RP. Just because I've always spoken out for the contextuality and nuances of paladin RP or alignment system doesn't mean I take my character's moral decisions any more lightly or think about them any less - though that's the assumption and accusation many people seem to make. The same is no doubt true of the other players who debate issues; they want to make sure the public conclusion is justified.

I agree in the most part that folks should rp there classes and for the record most people do. Ic action ic consequences and all that. Regarding blackguards yes the aura is invisible but certain characters can plausibly "feel" the evil.

Last edited by IronAngel on Thu, Mar 21 2013, 20:00 PM, edited 1 time in total.

And as far as "role-playing classes" goes: you shouldn't worry about it. You role-play your character, reflected in the sum of your build. Not only is it OK, but it should also be encouraged, to be creative and imaginative in interpreting your builds.

There's been a very disturbing trend on Amia toward emphasizing predetermined class role-play in favor of the creative simulation of original concepts with the tools we have. That's what you should worry about. The collective opinion is turning against individual freedom, which is the very premiss the server exists on and the primary thing that makes it better than its competitors.

Point perhaps i should have phrased it as that. However if folks always rped their classes we wouldn't need so many fall widgets.

Queenofblades wrote:

From my limited experience of "evil" characters here, they are all God mode rp looking for ~any~ reason to pvp you because of their evilness and the rp reflects this because their every reply is sarcastic, insulting or sarcastically insulting, or sometimes just bloody minded in an attempt to goad a fight.

I realise and accept this ~may~ not be everyone and I accept my exposure on Amia is not as much as others, but having played evil aligned characters on other rp servers and pnp its somewhat disheartning that for those I have encountered so far it seems to be "I am evil therefore I want to kill everyone I meet"

you are right with a lot of the evil chrs, but i know quite a few that arent like this. Also I knowquite a few goodies that are the same way as in attacking as soon as they see an undead summons instead of asking either politely or not for the summoner to dissmiss the undead. I myself assume that that's how they are *shrugs* and go with it, but on both sides it seems to run rampant

inprison666 wrote:

Queenofblades wrote:

From my limited experience of "evil" characters here, they are all God mode rp looking for ~any~ reason to pvp you because of their evilness and the rp reflects this because their every reply is sarcastic, insulting or sarcastically insulting, or sometimes just bloody minded in an attempt to goad a fight.

I realise and accept this ~may~ not be everyone and I accept my exposure on Amia is not as much as others, but having played evil aligned characters on other rp servers and pnp its somewhat disheartning that for those I have encountered so far it seems to be "I am evil therefore I want to kill everyone I meet"

you are right with a lot of the evil chrs, but i know quite a few that arent like this. Also I knowquite a few goodies that are the same way as in attacking as soon as they see an undead summons instead of asking either politely or not for the summoner to dissmiss the undead. I myself assume that that's how they are *shrugs* and go with it, but on both sides it seems to run rampant

You two have a very poor picture of evil.

Palin489 wrote:

inprison666 wrote:

Queenofblades wrote:

From my limited experience of "evil" characters here, they are all God mode rp looking for ~any~ reason to pvp you because of their evilness and the rp reflects this because their every reply is sarcastic, insulting or sarcastically insulting, or sometimes just bloody minded in an attempt to goad a fight.

I realise and accept this ~may~ not be everyone and I accept my exposure on Amia is not as much as others, but having played evil aligned characters on other rp servers and pnp its somewhat disheartning that for those I have encountered so far it seems to be "I am evil therefore I want to kill everyone I meet"

you are right with a lot of the evil chrs, but i know quite a few that arent like this. Also I knowquite a few goodies that are the same way as in attacking as soon as they see an undead summons instead of asking either politely or not for the summoner to dissmiss the undead. I myself assume that that's how they are *shrugs* and go with it, but on both sides it seems to run rampant

You two have a very poor picture of evil.

say wha?

on another note, i played my BG just a little bit today since recently getting the widget for the aura and i must say that the metagaming of the aura is well beyond the bounds of acceptable and even if they dont metagame the aura directly, they eventually figure out a flimsy excuse to "think" he is evil even when he is being overly nice and charming to the core.

"He bought me candy, mom--"
"SMITE THE BITCH!"

You don't have to keep your Aura of Despair on. It's not a DM ruling. It's just something that some players have repeated enough to make people think it is.

Wait what? I could have sworn it was a ruling...

Yeah, funny how things can get passed around like that. It's not something we've officially announced, nor is it listed in the Rules subforum. So, it's not a rule.

Do you mean to say that some players bend the truth so that other players have a poor opinion of the DMs? Perish the thought!

We can make you dislike us without any help!

Buhh.

This made me think it, I think - viewtopic.php?f=103&t=66826

But I feel like there was another thread which drove it home. I can't find it though. I might be imagining things.

wow...i just took bobofwesteroregons word for it. All that pointless metagaming, oh well

Lol that reminds me of a certain someone who accidentally pressed his/her hotkey for the blackguard aura in Kohlingen

serbiris wrote:

Buhh.

This made me think it, I think - viewtopic.php?f=103&t=66826

But I feel like there was another thread which drove it home. I can't find it though. I might be imagining things.

It should be noted that Ainjyll was a DM when he made that confusing comment.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

serbiris wrote:

This made me think it, I think - viewtopic.php?f=103&t=66826

But I feel like there was another thread which drove it home. I can't find it though. I might be imagining things.

It should be noted that Ainjyll was a DM when he made that confusing comment.

Agreed; his comments there were the reason I'd been under the impression that it had been made a rule.

Palin489 wrote:

inprison666 wrote:

Queenofblades wrote:

From my limited experience of "evil" characters here, they are all God mode rp looking for ~any~ reason to pvp you because of their evilness and the rp reflects this because their every reply is sarcastic, insulting or sarcastically insulting, or sometimes just bloody minded in an attempt to goad a fight.

I realise and accept this ~may~ not be everyone and I accept my exposure on Amia is not as much as others, but having played evil aligned characters on other rp servers and pnp its somewhat disheartning that for those I have encountered so far it seems to be "I am evil therefore I want to kill everyone I meet"

you are right with a lot of the evil chrs, but i know quite a few that arent like this. Also I knowquite a few goodies that are the same way as in attacking as soon as they see an undead summons instead of asking either politely or not for the summoner to dissmiss the undead. I myself assume that that's how they are *shrugs* and go with it, but on both sides it seems to run rampant

You two have a very poor picture of evil.

Well actually what I am saying is I have had nothing but very poorly RP'd evil character experiences here so far. Please clarify your reply, because you have failed to make any sort of point and have only made a weak attempt at apparently trying to score a point.

Yeah. While I have a lot of respect for Ainjyll, that wasn't something decided upon by the team, so it can be disregarded as any kind of ruling. If we make new rulings, they end up being announced in some capacity (as we have done recently) and are added to the rules we have listed.

I think your analysis of the evil RPers being poorly done is perhaps a misconception. Not all of them are blood thirsty, and even the ones that are aren't ALWAYS blood thirsty. What you see of them is small compared to the entirety of their characters. And there was a spot of wisdom in those posts, Dirgs hit it just right: It's on both sides.

As for powerbuilds that's just a necessary part of the game we play, you want to use a game as a medium which means you have to accept all the things that come with that. (Except for the things we can mod!!)

IronAngel wrote:

You role-play your character, reflected in the sum of your build. Not only is it OK, but it should also be encouraged, to be creative and imaginative in interpreting your builds.

Yes. Freedom for the players to play their characters as they see fit sounds better than being forced to play a cookie-cutter character.

Also, to adress the metagaming thing: I think various VFX should be removed to hinder metagaming.

Palin489 wrote:

I think your analysis of the evil RPers being poorly done is perhaps a misconception. Not all of them are blood thirsty, and even the ones that are aren't ALWAYS blood thirsty. What you see of them is small compared to the entirety of their characters. And there was a spot of wisdom in those posts, Dirgs hit it just right: It's on both sides.

As for powerbuilds that's just a necessary part of the game we play, you want to use a game as a medium which means you have to accept all the things that come with that. (Except for the things we can mod!!)

well, i wasn't exactly trying to bash either side of the alignment spectrum. There are examples of totally blood thirsty killers, and zealotous judgemental "do gooders" who are actually attack first and screw the consequences style chrs in reality , so why wouldnt they be so in an rp game. When I myself encounter such, I just roll with it is what I was saying and I also said that there are evil chrs ive run accross who arent cold blooded killers. My point was to just roll with it.

Thing is with this aura metagaming issue, it's difficult to actually RP a non cold blooded killer evil type, or RP at all for that matter. It's like I told a friend today, how can I play a BG with an effective CHA of 15 when most people he interacts with suddenly move ten feet away from him and state "i am feeling uncomfortable around you for some reason" I am so glad the ruling is not to keep it on all the time and I think if it can be done, Murex's idea is a good one.

Just home from work. There looks to be a small bit of confusion among a few people here, so I'll quote and elaborate..

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

BG's should always have their AoD on:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

While I understand that only the RDD thing is currently a rule-

Important text is emboldened for anyone confused on the matter. I just feel that my strong opinions on classes and consequences dictate I should play my class a certain way. It's the entire point of the character to be be played a certain way.

I'm not trying to imply that the DMs have ruled on anything that hasn't been specifically called a rule, I just want to encourage people to work a little harder at roleplaying than simply not showing certain parts of their body, like wings or an arm or an aura.

And on the subject of auras, I'm actually going to be RPing my aura to an extent, though it'll be completely intangible in most cases. Most people who see me will probably understand if I pull it off correctly. I just need to work it into my play style and figure out how to post it right, or publicly if at all.

I was a bit harsh with my "eat a dick" thing, but I've heard it said that Aura's are invisible. And "smelling the evil" is pretty much meta gaming unless someone sends me a request for permission to toss up Detect Evil. And unless I give you serious reason to do so, I'm just assuming the request is based off of meta game knowledge.

I also think I agree that a lot of the VFX for spells should probably be removed. Anything I can see might disrupt role play. If I know ahead of time that someone has True Seeing up, I might be discouraged from bothering with invisibility. But if there's ambiguity that comes with not having said VFX, there's also a bit of a neat mystery. If I can't see your true seeing effect, weather it's up or not, and you're a mage... can I really trust my wand of Invisibility? It makes the risks much more interesting, IMO.

Personally I never thought the BG thing was a rule, just that it was always on according to PnP stuff. Just made more sense to consider it always there.

While on the subject of the Blackguard aura I did question this many moons ago

CelestialDante wrote:

Is the black guard aura visible to characters? I used to think it was with the WYSIWYG basis, however I think I recall a DM possibly yourself saying it isn't visible.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not visible, but it's completely feelable/palpable.

I don't see the big deal with the fact that a blackguard is -so- evil it is unerving to others. If (though more likely when) I make a blackguard I will love the fear and terror inspiring presence. That is how I would play one, not saying thats how they should be played but i think that is just awesome that a persons presence can fill another with dread.

When a black guard uses the aura and is thus visible mechanically I personally don't see bunny rabbits bouncing around them with birds landing on the shoulder. I imagine they are choosing at that time to call upon the ultimate powers of darkness they know to aid them in battle, appear threatening etc.

If all the auras were made invisible, wouldn't that eliminate the problems associated with metagaming?

O'Raghailligh wrote:

If all the auras were made invisible, wouldn't that eliminate the problems associated with metagaming?

Yes.

There is still plenty other ways. The aura isn't the only giveaway folks use to tell if someone is good or bad.

While the aura of a blackguard may not be actually seen, it obviously has an effect on living things and therefore can be perceived. ( supposedly it gives off a feeling of despair, or such of agony or low spirit). Other invisible things that should be fairly obvious to any and all.. a gust of wind, a healing circle, a wall of force, a psionic blast!, of course! if you can feel it, then from somewhere it must emanate... perhaps that darkly clad gentleman with brooding spikes on his armor and a two handed sword...

AoD was discussed elsewhere.

It gives a saving throw penalty to enemies. Just because it's called "Aura of Despair" doesn't mean people despair inside it. Maybe they do, but that shouldn't be a categorical claim. And either way: that it affects enemies only is blatantly explicit. You would only ever notice it in PvP.

No consensus was reached regarding AOD so you can turn it on and off as you please.

Silent2001 wrote:

No consensus was reached regarding AOD so you can turn it on and off as you please.

I don't think you can turn AoD off?

Naivatkal wrote:

Silent2001 wrote:

No consensus was reached regarding AOD so you can turn it on and off as you please.

I don't think you can turn AoD off?

Rest or kill yourself.

Quote:

Spell VFX:

The visual results of spells are visible to other PC's and fall under the WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) rule. For example, a spell that causes leaves to whirl around a PC or the stone VFX from Stoneskin actually makes the player look like they have leaves whirling around them or are made of stone.

The two exceptions to this rule are the circulating dots emitted from auras and invisibility. A PC does not see a whirl of red dots orbiting a Blackguard nor are the auras of a Knight Commander visible (though any PC will feel the effects should they enter an aura) just as a character under invisibility that eases too close to another character can be seen by the game engine, however unless your character has True Seeing or See Invisibility enchanted on them they do not see the character. These VFX's are left for ease of game play and are not visible in an In Character sense.

This is from the rules forum. If you are a blackguard and come walking up in dark brooding armor to a group of people, or you just walk up to a lone person, and have the aura on, expect them to react and maybe accuse you of something.

I am wholly and strongly against the elimination of aura visual effects. Its an aura, you are actively impacting the world around you, people should and as the rules stand are capable of detecting that manipulation, they feel the extreme darkness and evil (or inspirational force for the KC I guess) around you, and should be allowed to react accordingly. If you steep yourself in pure insane absolute evil as a bargain for power, you should have to face consequences and not be able to hide an aura of pure despair from the world. If you want to be sneaky evil, don't be something so purely evil that it basically oozes an evil BO everywhere it goes.

Yeah, the above is why I shifted my Antimagic Aura to have no VFX beyond activation.

Quote:

Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

That being said, only enemies feel the effect of a Blackguard's aura. They can take bluff and hide in plain sight (figuratively) like anyone else. The moment one threatens you, however, you begin to despair... that's why people standing inside a blackguard's aura only get hit with the negatives once they're hostile, as opposed to it affecting everyone at all times.

A trend I've noticed lately....

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