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Summoning items / scrolls
https://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71955		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  foomatic [ Sat, Jun 01 2013, 17:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Summoning items / scrolls
Hi,

Thea has been asking a lot of folks in Amia about this, with no luck for a while now...

1. A couple of folks directed her to Fort Wiltun (I know I'm spelling that wrong), but the mage doesn't stock them
2. Rose helped her find the mage tower in Kohlingen, the mage there doesn't stock them either
3. Nyp helped her reach a merchent in a litch tower in the forest of despair in search of an outsider summoning item. No dice there as well.

So I'm just curious about the history of this... It appears that all these merchants had stocked scrolls in the past, but they have been removed.

Have summoning scrolls / items been removed from the server? And if so, why?



ed: Incidentally, she has been told as well about a couple of shops -- one in "The Abyss" and one at the end of "The Gauntlet", but I have no idea about the stock status of those stores since they are apparently very tough to access...
Author:  Sphinx [ Sat, Jun 01 2013, 17:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
It's a recurring theme on Amia: making life a bitch for newer players. The rest of this is IC and it's good that you've taken an IC approach to it. Summon scrolls do exist on Amia but as you've already pointed out, the stores that stock them are not usually readily accessible.
Author:  foomatic [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 4:12 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
I found this discussion with the reasoning: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53129&p=874074&hilit=summoning+scrolls#p874074though?

maglorine wrote:
Hendrack and Tormak are both right. Remove them from shops and let innate casters get scribed scrolls from higher level innate casters. Player economy and RP driven acquisition of these items. I bet the prices will go up a bit in the process. Flip the UMD switch and let the UMDers actually devote some significant ranks for the privilege. They can still use them, just requires more effort than a small handful of skill ranks.



Too bad... As a low-wealth archer, it makes things difficult. Scrolls, too uncommon and too expensive.

It is what it is. I am planning to drop Thea for a caster until I find a way around this.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 4:39 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Sphinx wrote:
It's a recurring theme on Amia: making life a bitch for newer players. The rest of this is IC and it's good that you've taken an IC approach to it. Summon scrolls do exist on Amia but as you've already pointed out, the stores that stock them are not usually readily accessible.

Oh yeah, because them being OP at low levels has nothing to do with it :roll:
Author:  NinjaClarinet [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 5:08 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
OP at low levels, perhaps, but also the only reason this guy ever got through mid levels on a rogue. I don't think it's a terribly great decision personally.
Author:  mirvala- [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 5:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
You just have to find out the right mage at the right moment; not all wizards are greedy bastards, you know ;)
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 5:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
NinjaClarinet wrote:
OP at low levels, perhaps, but also the only reason this guy ever got through mid levels on a rogue. I don't think it's a terribly great decision personally.

That sounds like a terrible argument. I'm guessing it was from a lack of finding parties?

The higher level summons scrolls were allowing people (mages and those with UMD) to solo things like the spiders and power level themselves. It was a no brainer they were taken out.

Personally I hardly every used them so I was not affected by it. Reliance upon an item is never a good thing.
Author:  tearsofthewyrm [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 6:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
If people were willing/able to pay the gold for the higher tier summon scrolls then what was the harm? Powering through levels? Any class that can summon can do this anyway. And in regards to being solo, its not always easy to find a party and sometimes you don't want to.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 7:23 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
1) Amia is not a soloing server.
2) Yes, you can 'powerlevel' if you can summon, but not at the rate you could with the scrolls. You could, with the gold, power level at Shekat's at level 4 or so. That's stupid insane.
3) If you have the gold you can still get them. From a PC. Oh look, that argument still is valid.
Author:  NinjaClarinet [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 7:26 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Any game this old should not rely on a consistent player availability to reach max level. That's common sense game design. I'll never agree that a party is necessary for basic, leveling dungeon content unless there is an acceptably fleshed out quest system to compensate. (Which there isn't, yet)
Author:  jimbono1 [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 7:43 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
I am in agreement with NinjaClarinet. During my prime-daytime, the average player count ranges from 5 to 14 players on A, with even less to nil on B. Not all characters can just party up with anyone. To assume so is idiotic.

Solo options should be availble for those who partying with is either difficult, or not a good option, whether that be due to the characters background and such, or the timezones just don't match.

Also, I would also say that forcing grouped hunting parties forces, at least evil characters, to powerlevel more until they are 30, as it is obvious that there is a higher chance of finding a hunting group for non-evil players, and if you are forcing them to find other players to group with to level, then yeah, they're just not going to play their true character until they hit the higher levels.
Author:  tearsofthewyrm [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 8:12 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
How can a level four character even afford a supply of summoning scrolls? What gold one has earned by then will surely all be gone upon purchasing a single one, if that (and that's likely just a level 7 scroll).
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 8:17 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
tearsofthewyrm wrote:
How can a level four character even afford a supply of summoning scrolls? What gold one has earned by then will surely all be gone upon purchasing a single one, if that (and that's likely just a level 7 scroll).

I said 'four or so', if you want to be nitpicky about it. And I have managed the gold to be able to before on more than one character. In addition, on average you will be getting enough drops with one scroll to be able to purchase another if not two more. Those scrolls last quite a while.
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 8:34 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
It's so very not difficult to afford a high-level scroll early on. (Or was, when stored had them.) Run through kobolds one time, and you'll probably come out with at least one bone wand, blank scroll, or minor mythal. All of which are easy to sell to a PC for roughly the price of a Summon 6 scroll from a shop.
Author:  tearsofthewyrm [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 9:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
So if you put in effort and or sell your items to other PCs, you can probably start affording summon scrolls. And why should a player who puts in this effort, whom knows what they are doing, whom wants to level and have said scrolls, not have access to them? For anyone who wants to rush to 30, they will be there in a very short amount of time regardless of whether or not they have access to these scrolls. Indeed, all this does is make it harder for people who have characters that have trouble hunting alone, those that can't/don't for various reasons and most importantly, newer players.
Author:  foomatic [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 9:29 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
At level 10 now, as a rogue / archer, I can take on one, maybe two groups of spiders with a buffed level 3 summon before it gets eaten... and I have to run.

It's not always possible to get find people around Bendir at your level. How do you do it... is there some sort of system I don't know about? Wait around the hunting areas until somebody shows up?

Besides, I don't think removing the scrolls helps much. Powergamers will powergame, with summon scrolls or without, and from what I've seen so far, there are a fair few folks who are not interested in R.P while hunting.


ed: I just realized tearsofthewyrm is saying exactly what I was trying to: The removal of the scrolls from the store makes it much harder for new players on certain builds... and doesn't really affect power-levellers who know other power-levellers on Amia.
Author:  maglorine [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 11:35 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Have you used the party ball?

Bendir currently has a wealth of low to mid level pcs and I've been leveling a fellow off and on who is also level 10 with no problems finding parties.

If you are a hin in Bendir Dale you should ask around. We help out new folks in character. Both with advice and with gear. We have mages who scribe I can point you to. Don't give up on Thea. Scrolls are entirely unnecessary. My main Missus is also a rogue and never used summon scrolls for leveling. State your play times here OOC or better yet, send me a pm and we'll see if we can help you out.
Author:  tearsofthewyrm [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 12:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Being forced to have a party, in a server where there is often hardly anyone online (11 at the time of writing this and I've seen far lower) is a detriment. And what happens when your character is not able to party for say, in character reasons? Or to hang around in Bendir? Should conflictual evil (like the sort of evil I play, which aims to generate on the spot conflicts) be forced to pose as something else? No. Such characters, indeed, all characters, should have viable means to level alone without the need to have the most powerful builds and or explicit server knowledge.
Author:  foomatic [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 12:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
maglorine wrote:
Have you used the party ball?


Well, I have just discovered the party ball... Thank you.

Don't know how I missed it :oops: .
Author:  maglorine [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 13:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
I don't get your point Tears. Are you saying the server should be built around areas which can be soloed by a single PC and a summon scroll? Any PC regardless of build? Caster? Melee? Ranged? Defensive? Glass Cannon? A gimped one trick build?

What happens when a full party with the correct complement of buffs and abilities rumbles through an area like that?

We should do this so anti-social, no faction pc's can get from 1-30 without ever having to travel with other PC's? Someone can say "but my PC hates everyone, he would never party with another PC!" but that was a choice. Expecting no difference in leveling or the ability to solo areas at high XP no matter what player choices are made is not only unrealistic but unattainable.

The server has been moving away from easy to solo areas for some time now. You can solo lower CR areas almost no matter what your build. Soloing Shekats at 10th level (to use the example provided) nets you what - 40-50xp per kill? Ok, you might need to move down a couple notches to a 20xp per kill Zone if you are solo.

Foomatic,
Nice to meet you in-game finally. You're welcome.
Author:  tearsofthewyrm [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 13:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
I am saying that the relocation of various summon scrolls to the epic area shops serves mainly to make it harder for newer players and those who yes, want to/have to hunt alone. Players who want to 'powergame' are going to do so either way, either through build, server knowledge, simple grinding or a combination of such things.
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 16:41 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
This is a moot argument tbh. The quest progression of the module is getting a serious overhaul and I'm starting with level 2 and working my way up.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 16:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Also, the argument that is affects 'new players' is silly. It effects all players, because it' snot like an old player magically has the summon scrolls. Server knowledge only goes so far. If you are a good player you won't metagame that. Many don't. If you want to just powergame like some people then you will do it.

Point is, it's affects everyone and the hollow argument that it hurts newbies is hilarious. I've seen plenty of new players not struggle.
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 16:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
We're also going to be starting to "color code" the quests as we go, to give a general guideline of how difficult a challenge any given quest (and the corresponding dungeon if applicable) will be.
Author:  P Three [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
There are no words for how much I hate leveling. Anything that makes it harder gets a string of curses from me.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Guys, really. Amia is one of the easiest servers to level.
Author:  P Three [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Yeah, and I still hate it. I don't even level on my other server where you can literally go 1-40 in two days because I haaaaaate it.

Personally, I think if you're gonna yank the summon scrolls out and leave it to the PCs do do, you should make scrolls a little more accessable than random loot drops.
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
P Three wrote:
... make scrolls a little more accessable than random loot drops.

+1
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Or do it the IC way and instead of selling all those blank scrolls you find, ask a mage to scribe them?
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Buying scroll paper from (for example) a PC merchant who crafted it via the job system is still "doing it the IC way," and makes a lot more sense.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:38 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
If you could use job system paper for magic scroll making it would completely wreck the server balance.
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
How?
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Because certain spells shouldn't be available in an unlimited fashion.
Author:  P Three [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
The "Balance" seems to be entirely skewed to me as it is. We hear "RAWR THIS AIN'T A SOLOING SERVER" yet I -constantly- see people grinding the crap out of bosses with little to no RP, and actual RP builds unable to do jack most times.

I highly, highly doubt that making scrolls available in shops is going to wreck the balance, since I have close to a hundred sitting on Liress and barely ever use them, and -never- receive orders for them
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Amarice is right. If blank scrolls were that readily available, we'd see rogues with a stack of 50 Black Blades of Disaster sitting in stealth and letting it kill things. Or people chaining Spell Mantle scrolls to effectively become immune to spells.
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Then prevent those certain spells from being available in an unlimited fashion. Make them unscribable, like Timestop and others are or have been. Or make scroll paper possible to craft but assign rare ingredients to magical scroll ink. Or any number of things. Point being, the system can be designed in any way we like, to preserve whatever balance we like. Making the system sensible doesn't inherently equal making it into a Wild West free-for-all.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
And why, by any means, would and should be a high level summoning scroll be scribeable and easy accessable if BBoD and Greater Spell Mantle isn't?
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Your first idea would prevent wizards from ever being able to share those spells with each other then, among other things. And your second idea would only further the gap between those who farm and those who don't, it would be the same as saying "oh, it's alright to put +7 gear on the epic bosses, they're rare and hard to get, so it won't unbalance things".

*edit* @Liz cus Amarice ninja'd me :P
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
I hate to quote myself but also:

Glim wrote:
This is a moot argument tbh. The quest progression of the module is getting a serious overhaul and I'm starting with level 2 and working my way up.


This will seriously fix 90% of the issues to do with leveling. Honest.
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
You can make certain spells unscribable for the same reason Timestop and Rez were. That line has already been crossed. If you need an IC justification for it, then it's equally valid to ask why PC-crafted paper doesn't *already* work for scroll-making. Paper is paper.
Author:  P Three [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 18:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Liz wrote:
You can make certain spells unscribable for the same reason Timestop and Rez were. That line has already been crossed. If you need an IC justification for it, then it's equally valid to ask why PC-crafted paper doesn't *already* work for scroll-making. Paper is paper.


QFE.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 19:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell.

Physical Description

A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 ½ inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 ½ inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.

No paper is not paper.
Author:  Liz [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 19:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
I think we're not communicating clearly, here: we're getting bogged down in particulars when the point I'm trying to make is far more general. A scroll-paper-crafting system can be designed in any of a million different ways, some of which preserve balance and some of which don't. Amia is full of clever, resourceful, creative people who understand the pitfalls and can compensate for them.
Author:  CouncilofAutumn [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 20:14 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Glim wrote:
We're also going to be starting to "color code" the quests as we go, to give a general guideline of how difficult a challenge any given quest (and the corresponding dungeon if applicable) will be.


This is awesome. I know when I first started playing I died a bunch of times and almost quit if it hadn't been for LetumLux showing me the ropes. It only seems self-explanatory to players who have been on this server for a while - it's actually really hard to both roleplay and not get in over your head (for example: playing a good character who hears a conversation about beastmen and goes off to fight them, only to realize too late that you should have been ten levels higher). There's just no way to know what you're going to get into until you engage them and get annihilated.
Author:  BeautifulLie [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 22:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Glim wrote:
We're also going to be starting to "color code" the quests as we go, to give a general guideline of how difficult a challenge any given quest (and the corresponding dungeon if applicable) will be.



If you color code please keep your color blind players in mind <3
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 22:57 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
That could be easier said than done... the whole point of using color codes was to provide only a general guideline rather than a hard "this is meant for level 12 characters" sort of idea. And with a limited color tag selection to begin with, we only have so much to work with, so I'm not sure off the top of my head how we could work that out.
Author:  Manarethan [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 23:03 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Incorporate a series of asterisks in the title, the number of which would denote a rough level range. Most players could see the colours and know immediately, while colour-blind players would just need to take a moment longer to note the asterisk range.
Author:  Glim [ Sun, Jun 02 2013, 23:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Good thinking :) I'll include that.
Author:  BeautifulLie [ Mon, Jun 03 2013, 19:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Thankyou so very much. So many games forget about us colorblind players and it makes life hell when you -need- to see a color.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Mon, Jun 03 2013, 21:27 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Summoning items / scrolls
Ah quest progression getting an overhaul is nice... Although if it takes ages for it all to be properly implemented and yet you've already made the change to make summoning scrolls less available then you will be faced with people telling you that you made leveling harder... Because for now you did.

Since the people who it will matter most to aren't the ones who were using it to powerlevel (since they can most likely still do that fairly well) but the ones who were using them so that they could actually handle leveling during times when they can't or don't want to group, you will get people who are quite annoyed at the change. Although It will (possibly) be a moot point once the changes are all in,
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