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A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
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Author:  AzureLuna [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:10 PM ]
Post subject:  A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
In light of the recent departures of DMs and players alike, this discussion was brought up in another thread and then moved to here for further insight/discussion/dismissal.

Needled247 wrote:
tldr; player driven factions are going to be more fun than DM driven factions.


While I agree with this idea, this shouldn't be the primary force of the server. I've had Emilie dabble in a number of groups that didn't require any DM oversight. The problem lies in those tender and critical moments when you need to interact with the world, which you addressed a little bit in your post. However, more importantly then just focusing on the destruction or building of /things/, what becomes overwhelmingly frustrating is when you need, and I mean /need/, to interact with an NPC faction on a socio-political level. People who enjoy playing "Diplomacy's Game", as it were.

Player-driven factions and stand-alone DM plots are great... until they're not. Without at least some small amount of cohesion and follow-through for those things that are expressly DM-controlled the story withers and falls apart, immersion is fractured and people are left without anywhere to turn that would make sense in character. All that is left is a steady stream of altoholics that make little to no impression on the world, because sometimes it's too frustrating to engage with a world that doesn't engage back.

I'm not going to pretend as though I know how to solve (or even pretend that I am aware of) all of the problems, but the point of being a DM is to create a world and drive a story. . . and the point of being a player is to have the ambition to delve into those stories and really focus on developing a character, and in turn, developing the player world. At least in my opinion. Those are ideas that seems to be losing grip.

tl;dr: It's going to take more than acceptance of the waning attention of DMs/waning quality of characters to prevent the feelings and obstacles that have lead to several people bowing out of Amia.
Author:  PaladinOfSune [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:20 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
You mean 'DM', but yeah, this is a better place for it. Thanks.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Indeed. DM... not DMs.
Author:  Eurgiga [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I'll just go down the numbers.

1. Your very premise starts with a presumption: That people are leaving the server. This carries the unspoken statement that the rate of departure exceeds the incoming players (Yes, we do get new people, I'm as surprised as you are). I would like a net outflow to be shown before you carry the idea off on the "WE ARE LOSING PLAYERS AND DMS" tangent.

2. An additional presumption is made that the DMs' attention is waning or that they're not paying attention. Again, specific examples are more helpful than general statements without substantiating presentment of testimony. I don't believe any DM should get to fall back on the "we are volunteers" card, but by the same stroke there are far more factions, groups, and cliques than DMs. Unfortunately, this sort of means that their limited time is often devoted to current plots under way to the exclusion of other groups. Is this also not a rational explanation for a DM not being available?

3. You place a lot of blame on the DMs for not keeping up their part in plots involving players. I at no time noticed equal blame being put on players who fail to keep up with the plot or do anything other than show up and go "DM GIMME COOKIE". I've had a number of plots I've had to let slide because of time constraints and I'm a player. I know at least two DM-interactive plots that I'm part of that can't go forward without me that are just sorta hanging. To place the blame squarely on the DMs, especially when there's several players involved, is just blameshifting.

TL:DR: I am not arguing in favour of the DMs, but I am pointing out the presumptions and logical weak points of your argument in hopes it can be discussed fairly and something may come of it.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
The one point I want to make is this:
Is it 'Why people are leaving Amia' or 'Why a select few have left Amia'? There is a very fine distinction there, and the thread's premise indicates that everyone (or a majority) has left for the same reasons. That would be hard to believe, and not only since a number of people left a while back after a certain thing occurred (( and many of them went to Sinfar, of all places *snerk* )).

I'll simply say that I have seen none of this. Things slow down, yes, we saw it in Kohl (but that was cause G-orgy got busy). But things have not quite stagnated in my opinion. Things change, the world is cohesive. So the question would be if this is a case of a widespread mode of thought or something only a some have shared (or the even fewer that are consistently 'unhappy with Amia')?

Just my light thoughts on the matter.
Author:  Liz [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Re: Eurgiga's thoughts: I'm not qualified to comment emprically on player count, though a downward trend in player count was common knowledge and the subject of much frank discussion a year or so ago. If that trend has halted or reversed, I'd love a big celebratory announcement about it. :)

DM count, though, is right in the Announcements forum for all to see: in 2013, DM count is basically flat. One more DM out than in, and that's before the team has really had a chance to adapt to the departures of Glim and Gorgometh. I'd be surprised if DM count stayed at -1 for long.
Author:  Eurgiga [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I generally assume a downward player trend for a decade-old game. It happens. I'd really want to see more of an acceleration demonstrated. Yes, yes, I know I'm moving the goalposts a bit, so sue me.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Lots of people leave for lots of reasons, although one of the reasons I've notice people state when they "leave for good" (Whether they actually do or not) is because they feel other players and/or DMs are doing things that are completely contrary to what they feel they should.

And sometimes they even have valid points, although I would far rather stick around and help change things rather than just bail if others are doing things that I disagree with.


On a separate but related note I would like to see some stuff on amia get shaken up some. There are many factions, cities, characters and I feel safe in assuming even DMs that have gotten into the position of "Things are how I like them and don't want them to change" which almost always stagnates roleplaying since they act as agents of entropy, not really ever wanting to change or make progress, since the progress might be in directions they don't like.
Author:  IntheCoconut [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I am actually a bit leery about even delving into this. I just know that this is going to come down to a LOT of personal and divided opinions, as people will agree and disagree on what they personally find "wrong" or may even disagree entirely about there being a "problem" to begin with, which makes finding a solution difficult. Further more, from my experience, these kind of discussions generally end up in arguments between the playerbase and the DMs, with neither side willing to hold themselves accountable. People just get defensive, things escalate and people get upset and frustrated, and then what was supposed to be a thoughtful discussion turns into a blame-game, where neither side is willing to compromise.

I am not saying this shouldn't be discussed, mind, because I think it should. I have some opinions of my own on the matter, but I don't have the time at this very moment to put the careful thought into wording it. So while I don't have much to contribute this very second, I just want to caution people to really think critically about what they want to say before moving forward. If you have an issue with something, try to think about how you yourself may have contributed to the issue and acknowledge any faults you have, think about what you personally can do to change it before putting the burden of finding a solution on others. In addition, when someone does make a post and it is clear they put a lot of thought into their message, please be respectful and actually make an attempt to understand where they are coming from even if you disagree. This is a difficult and controversial topic to bring up, and while people will disagree, lets not completely dismiss the points and opinions being made and try to look at the underlying reason as to why people are posting here to begin with.
Author:  Eurgiga [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 21:51 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I wouldn't mind seeing a city blow up. Especially if it's Kohlin- I mean Cordor.
Author:  Pony [ Wed, Jul 24 2013, 22:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Amia has a few major story arcs, which are intwined with one another. Two of them being the Cordor and the Tarkuul plot. Given their influence on the region when something develops there, perhaps even unknowing to most characters, it is usually accompanied by a lot of smaller storylines. When these major storyarcs halt for completly ooc based reasons it breaks the whole dynamic of the storyline and disrupts the roleplay of the playerbase.

We will always have disruptions. It can happen because an important character's player no longer has time or a dm says farewell and another needs to take his place. It is when these disruptions become longer we get real problems. My character now has been waiting for over six months on a very important meeting with an NPC that would likely influene one of these story arcs incredibly. Instead he has to stand by and watch it all get worse as if he were in a coma. There is no storyline reason why this meeting would not take place, only a single ooc one: the DM who played that NPC no longer is available. One major arc has been, and I am not truly exagerrating, on hold for close to a year save for very small exceptions.

It simply is not right at any point to tell someone who has enriched this community for so long it is their fault. I am not blaming the DM who had to bow out, though I wish he had made notes. It is also not right to tell an individual DM it is their fault for not picking it up for what ever reason. What I however feel fair is to say it is the obligiation of the DM Staff as a whole to help one another get problems such as this sorted.

This is for me the number one issue. The second and third ranking topic for me are the following: I would like to see a very spread out playerbase be brought together in more diverse hubs to promote steady and versatile roleplay, and I would like to discuss ways to reduce the dm oversight necessity on such things as criminal rp in towns.
Author:  Lone Wolf [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 1:02 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
People come, people go - it happens. Many people who DM go into it w/ a very clear view of what they want to do, then get out. Once they tell the stories they want to the well runs dry and DMing just feels like a chore.

As a NWN player of many servers and ex-DM of a few, I think this is needless alarmism as the level of DM interactivity I've seen here is leagues more than elsewhere.
Author:  corypx [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 1:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
A lot of factors play into it but I can only speak from experience, and that more or less falls on the line of B-mia.

I have said 100 times, the layout killed that server plain and simple, and Eurgiga jokes about seeing a city blow up, half of the islands on that server have to blow up to even make a dent to correct its underline flaw of to many islands=to spread out=people don't run into eachother=no RP=events also don't spread/effect each other much= DEAD SERVER.

The Spider's Forest event being fresh in everyone's mind we can use as a example it effected to a degree based off being close (Shrine,Grove,Winya,Kohlingen and Dale)
that's a lot of people to get in and make RP with a DM around or not, I was around for some of it and it had tons of people all the time.


Caraigh: A Dark Frontier (Caraigh and Wiltun) B-mia with its limited player base, and again being a island it does not effect anyone else on the server, we have no other neighbors.

Its been said by Pony OOC disruptions that can effect the overall story and not much can be done about.
Author:  GreatPigeon [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 2:23 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Its obviously because I haven't been around.

Folks are leaving because the game is what 12 years old or some crap?

Some people feel seniority gives them preferred treatment and abuse it.

DMs get burnt out.

Either to much conflict/ not enough.

And a thousand other stuff.
Author:  Cerpin Taxt [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 3:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Too much bongo business, not enough stepping up.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 3:22 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I'll voice my concerns if its asking for it, here. I try to be open and honest with you guys, as often as I can.
Author:  Eurgiga [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 3:23 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
corypx wrote:
...and Eurgiga jokes about seeing a city blow up


Who's joking?
Author:  Grymia [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 4:12 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I admit I have had some issue with Energy for Amia lately but that's only slightly to do with certain aspects of Amia and more to do with my current occupational situation (read: I have a job that happens to fall on the primary viable playing hours of most folks I RP with on a regular basis).

Aside from this, while there are certain things that burn me out on Amia, I know they are things I have the means to deal with in a simple fashion (Mainly, take breaks, talk out where I feel comfortable etc.)
Author:  RaveN [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 4:44 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I have to admit, that I disagree that the point of a DM here, to make a story that we're playing in. In tabletop, yes, there is the world which is created, but in NWN, in my experience, the game has always regulated itself when the players can do things without the DM's. The server plot is regulated by the DM's but individual plots really should be spawned by the players, along the way. It's a numbers game, and usually a DM isn't going to be available to roleplay with you, leaving you to your own devices. This often results in people feeling bored when a DM isn't on, or they often feel like their plots are better than other people's because they have a DM helping it along.

The more notable problems aren't really related to DM involvement, though IMO.

1) The game is 11+ years old now, and people might have better things they could be doing. We've all gotten older.

2) The game mostly functions on cliques that generally stick together and rarely move around to broaden the scope of their own roleplay. Unfortunately, elitism plays an enormous part in this. Cory made a good point about the areas being kind of out of any roleplay generating reach.

3) The playerbase (and DM team) is so caught up in OOC politics, that they filter out their roleplay based on both experiences and what other people "think" of something. In my experience, and unfortunately so, it would seem that spamming people on MSN, (DM's included) is far more effective than actually roleplaying.

4) People hit the red tape way too fast on amia. Almost every conversation anyone ever has seems to need a DM at some point, to continue.

5) People of Amia are too attached to how things are that nothing changes. Then they quit, when they realize that everyone has their own clique, and their own faction area, and there's absolutely zero conflict, then they blame other players for being stagnant, when it pretty much is a cyclical design flaw. The design flaw is that victories and combat is always 100% victory on Amia, meaning that nobody ever gets into much combat, because nobody wants to change their beloved server. There are hardly times where something is a decisive victory, and the other party can lick their wounds, and create roleplay from this. There's just pride and anger from victors and defeated alike.

6) The evil that exists on this server (which I'm not convinced that it does) just hides and is largely irrelevant to the plot that people get to see.

7) Not many (nobody) gives a shit if they die.
Author:  Liz [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 4:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Mr. Hackums wrote:
I'll voice my concerns if its asking for it, here. I try to be open and honest with you guys, as often as I can.

Yes please.
Author:  wolfurt [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 5:22 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Liz wrote:
Mr. Hackums wrote:
I'll voice my concerns if its asking for it, here. I try to be open and honest with you guys, as often as I can.

Yes please.


Yes please!
Author:  Eurgiga [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 5:34 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
wolfurt wrote:
Liz wrote:
Mr. Hackums wrote:
I'll voice my concerns if its asking for it, here. I try to be open and honest with you guys, as often as I can.

Yes please.


Yes please!


+1.
Author:  Alaria- [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 5:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Hi,

I've only played here for seven months but I figured I'd try to chip in with my opinion on things.
Amia in my opinion is one of the best RP servers that have ever existed. With any system however there are flaws! I'm going to try to keep this as constructive as I can.

There is one topic in particular that I have heard many complaints about, and that is the death system.

The death system is something that has been previously mentioned by Needled & others in different topics, but I believe to be an issue. I think that this is mainly related to the immersion of the setting. The bottom line is that there is simply no epicness related to actual death on Amia. Players have a tendency to brutally murderize each others characters, cutting limbs off and what not. Normally, this would be rather alright... if it was not for the fact that the player slain will simply just resurrect and return. In my opinion this is the most immersive breaking system that the server has because no matter how good RP you put in, there is no 'end line' for characters to actually be afraid of. There is no consequence for a character dying. What do characters have to be afraid of? Bottom line - nothing. The kill, resurrect and the whole "Ah! You again! ... but I killed you!" thing just gets really old after the second or third time. I have heard many complaints on this matter and even as motivation why players feel like they need a break from Amia; this is simply a RP killer!
Solution: The most common system to adress this is a permadeath system. The baseline of this is that players should not be able to kill other players. No matter how much they're injured, no matter how much they're tortured, they should not be able to die unless it has been approved by DM's or players in question. This may seem somewhat odd, but I believe it is necessary to keep the 'killing' in control. When death finally happens, it *should* be somewhat final. What it does is that it simply draws the end line in the sand for all characters; you get here you're most likely screwed so do be careful! It gives characters something to strive for when wishing to inflict harm upon other characters, something that will not be attainable by just walking up to them, killing them and then watching them respawn.
This is just one way of attaching consequence to actual death, I'm sure you can think of better ones!
Author:  Bini [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 6:10 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I don't want to be rude to you, since you are a new player and may suffer from a more dire version of the lack of perspective we all seem to, but talking about the death system in this topic is a red herring. How it is handled mechanically and by Amian policy aside, your concern is one pertaining to the consequences of roleplay in general. For there to be any sort of satisfaction for either party, interaction must to carry consequences and must have a lasting impact on either character.
Author:  jimbono1 [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 6:31 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I think people need to just learn to let go. Learn that things don't always have to be the same, and can change. Stories aren't there to make you feel happy and proud and such. They're there to make you feel any number of emotion, including guilty, pain, sorrow, so on so forth, alas there is no negative emotion in Amia.

Most people do not experience real loss, which leads to people not even being given a chance to develop their characters fully.

This is not the case for everyone. Do not assume I am directing this statement directly at you, which so many people seem to do on this server all the time. If you feel that one was directed at you, it probably was.
Author:  Burningoutbright [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 6:34 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Hey loves,

If you have any frustration or a hard time finding a DM to help you do things you'd like, please hit me up. I'll be starting college soon, again, and I'm a shift worker, but I'll try to accommodate. I can't promise what I do with your characters and story will always be what you like, but I can promise that if you give it a chance through the ups and downs, it'll be worth it and entertaining. That's all I really have to say on the topic.
Author:  Alaria- [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 8:03 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Bini wrote:
I don't want to be rude to you, since you are a new player and may suffer from a more dire version of the lack of perspective we all seem to, but talking about the death system in this topic is a red herring. How it is handled mechanically and by Amian policy aside, your concern is one pertaining to the consequences of roleplay in general. For there to be any sort of satisfaction for either party, interaction must to carry consequences and must have a lasting impact on either character.


What's your opinion of the topic then, if I may ask?
Author:  Dead [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 8:23 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
What Pony said.
Author:  IronAngel [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 8:35 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
When it was still possible for me to play, a couple of months back, I felt Amia was doing as good as ever. Better, perhaps. It was on a steady course in the right direction with plenty of effort spent on exciting things. Lacking any statistical evidence, I assume that "people leaving Amia" is mostly an illusion prompted by a few visible cases. This topic has been returning irregularly but inevitably for years now, with very little lasting signifigance.

There are those like me who "leave" Amia for reasons unrelated to the server. Then there are those who lose interest or don't think it's worth their effort. But time and again we've seen the latter group doesn't share a uniform reason: you couldn't satisfy them all if you tried to, and their expectations and experiences of Amia are often contrary to eachother.ยจ

Vigilance and self-criticism is a good thing, but I don't think Amia needs to look at itself particularly hard or feel bad about it. It's a good server with a good staff and playerbase.

P.S. I do have one criticism relating to DM availability, which Gabe touched on. There are several PMs pending, to a few DMs, that never received response and put my plots on hold. However, the same is true of several players, and I never pushed the issues myself either. And when I left I let a few plots hanging myself. There's just too much going on to keep up with it all. That's life, but I imagine the unresponsiveness of both DMs and players to someone's eager intitiatives can discourage them.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 9:52 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
IronAngel wrote:
When it was still possible for me to play, a couple of months back, I felt Amia was doing as good as ever. Better, perhaps. It was on a steady course in the right direction with plenty of effort spent on exciting things. Lacking any statistical evidence, I assume that "people leaving Amia" is mostly an illusion prompted by a few visible cases. This topic has been returning irregularly but inevitably for years now, with very little lasting signifigance....

Vigilance and self-criticism is a good thing, but I don't think Amia needs to look at itself particularly hard or feel bad about it. It's a good server with a good staff and playerbase.


These were my thoughts as well. When I saw the title, I was like "wait, people are leaving?....where? When?". You stay here long enough and you see trends rather than specific instances. After being here for years I can say we're still doing very well. There were a few times we had a playerbase scare but no time in the recent past. This current time certainly isn't one of them, in my opinion. Like Iron said, a few public cases, that's it.

Another thing that kinda strikes me as odd about these threads (yes, I've been here long enough to count 4 off the top of my head), is how "NWN is old" gets brought up so many times. Well, so is D&D. So is Chess. There are very few people that play NWN and Amia I think that do it for how new and flashy its graphics or gameplay engine are. People play NWN for the same reason they play PnP a lot of the times. The stories, the RP, the fun had with other people. There's a uniqueness to online D&D as hosted by a few DM's that you don't get from single player RPG's or general MMO's. It doesn't matter how old a game is if it constantly has a new and ongoing story. People come and go for various reasons, getting tired of one particular game being one of them, but in all honesty, I doubt many wake up one day and quit because they suddenly realized that they were not playing Skyrim.
Author:  jimbono1 [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 10:08 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
IronAngel wrote:
P.S. I do have one criticism relating to DM availability, which Gabe touched on. There are several PMs pending, to a few DMs, that never received response and put my plots on hold. However, the same is true of several players, and I never pushed the issues myself either. And when I left I let a few plots hanging myself. There's just too much going on to keep up with it all. That's life, but I imagine the unresponsiveness of both DMs and players to someone's eager intitiatives can discourage them.


I think the main point trying to be made is that DM Availability should either be always available, or not necessary for peoples plots to rely on, because as you say, it puts things on hold, and makes certain characters, players and even plotlines and stories become stagnant, therefore promoting people to just stand in some place, waiting for things to happen around them over going out and doing something creative because every time they try to do something creative, it gets knocked back into the abyss of stagnation.
Author:  Aeqvinox [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 12:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
People -are- leaving though. If i were to search my logs and give you a list, it would be at least in the twenties among drow players alone, that have been fairly active 1-2 years ago.

I also feel very strongly that both the module design and player behavior are the key issues that create stagnation and discontent among players. So far i haven't seen anything being implemented by the DMs, that would create friction and conflict on a global scale and force the cliques to step out of their comfort zones, like camping Bendir all day waiting for someone to do something silly.

It was a rumor a while ago by the way, that there's a grand plot in preparation that will bring back a proper good vs evil conflict back to Amia. Where is it, i ask?



Also why doesn't anyone give two shits about the potential of Underdark anymore? There is one, in case you didn't know guys, and there's even players down there. Would it really be so difficult to create conditions for growth of that playerbase, and usher it in the direction of conflict against the surface? Does anyone see any harm such direction would bring?
Author:  Pony [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 12:11 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I doubt you (Jimbono) meant it like that, but just to make certain the tone does not become too demanding and unfair: I do not want to use absolutes. Writing the "DMs should be always available" would simply be expecting too much. If players have to wait for a week because of timezone issues, the DM needing to prepare, rl issues on either side, or any other number of reasons I am completly fine with that. If I need to wait two months because a major story arc lost it's DM then I fully understand that the DM taking over needs time to familiarize himself. If it is exam time then I do not expect a dm to log on.

Regarding my previous example, there was no reliable dm availability for quite some time, nor did the disruptions remain at any reasonable level. When there is a chance of that the team as a whole needs to step in to make sure the story continues. That is when I feel critique is justified, and I think it needs to be worked on. As these major storyarcs have a way of forcing characters to participate, for instance because not doing so might cause grievous consequences for a population, the need for the characters to act to deal with these issues in combination of the ooc discruption causes a lot of issues.

It is also something we actually hold our players to as well. Factionleaders have a responsibiliy in regard to their factionmembers. If your character becomes the leader of an organization we expect you to follow up on that with the reasonable time and effort required. There is a reason DMs have removed factionleaders due to inactivity or because they spent their time on alts all day.

And yeah, I would also like to reduce the required availability for dms. For a lot of things they will always remain essential, but I would like us to find ways to encourage the playerbase to run their own plots and storylines again more. If we get the DM and player plots and storylines working better, and we pull in the dms and playerbase instead of letting everything remain so spread out, I am confident we will see a rise in activity and people trying to pull other players back in.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 12:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
There are two rather simple solutions for the DM wait time issue, first more DMs is always helpful.
But secondly and more importantly, DMs working together more and knowing what each other are doing and planning helps both in plots actually being able to connect with each other in certain ways adding to immersion and more importantly means that if one DM can't do something for a while then another can easilly take over for a bit.


Although I still think that there are more important issues than just DM wait times.
Author:  Tomato Sword [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 12:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
There are bound to be personal preference on the lack of or abundance of plots, so I won't really comment on that end. But I will share my thoughts on the server as a person that no longer takes an active role. I've shared these thoughts when the server last had this conversation about a year ago in a PM to one of the DMs, but now I will share it with all of y'all.

On one hand, I do think there is something inherently underappreciated about DMs, perhaps not even limited to Amia, just because players often speak from an ideal stand point without much consideration to the fact the DMs are living, breathing people just like us with life, desires, and things they don't like. Having run a faction and have taken leadership in real life activities, I do think DMing and other leadership position in general are thankless jobs. Understandably, that's frustrating.

On the other hand, I don't think it hurts the DMs to be less of a DM and more of a person. No, we can't expect the DMs to be aware of everything that's going on in the server, but why doesn't the staff actually acknowledge they can't know everything that goes on? Instead, there's usually a laundry list of demands on the player side that are just as unreasonable as the players expecting the DMs to be omniscient. There's really nothing more infuriating than a forum DM to tell you there's not enough RP. What's that based on when they're not interacting with the world? How about when you make a mistake? That too is often a one sided conversation of "We're the DMs and everything we say goes. Eat it".

I'm not saying that the DMs shouldn't have a final say on server matters. Someone has to make those decisions. But so often on Amia, people (DM and players included) are too busy listening to the sound of their own voice or being upset over what they think they heard, rather than sitting down and talking to the person to see if what they thought they heard is what the person meant.

At the risk of seeming like I like listening to the sound of my own voice... When I was the mayor, we were so exhausted by the constant level of rule breaking and the lack of DM assistance even when we did everything by the book. It didn't matter if we had a screenshot or not. Nothing was ever good enough and if and when there was DM action, it was usually a slap on the wrist but nothing more. At the same time, not everything that the Dale players perceived as acts of malice against us were actually malicious. Some people really just didn't understand. Whether it had to do with their general lack of Faerun lore (No, you can't just walk into a town oozing with maggots praising Talona as your goddess and expect people to welcome you in open arms) or just the lack of attention on their part (I walked into the Dale and Cordor as Rhyl when I started! I'm totally guilty!), I had to be really mindful of when people were genuinely trolling us and when people were new and just confused. I got crap from all ends. From some players I was too strict, from others I was too soft. From the DMs, some said I complained too much over nothing and by other DMs, I didn't do enough to meet up to their standards and expectations. Whatever people said about me personally, we made it work. I made pies that Missus loved and omelets for the kobbies that Missus hated. Sally reminisced about the old days to remind us how old she really is. Serena complained about the rain and dirt elves. Kirby turned into a talking barrel. Plith was declaring "Blue Day". Maybe some people like saving the world (or destroying the world, as it may be), but these little things were what we cherished the most.

When all of that ended was when it became a one sided conversation. Granted that none of the people involved are DMs anymore, we were treated unfairly and in the end all we got out of the staff was, "Eat it". The players are not unreasonable. There are certain level of discomfort and frustration we are all willing to tolerate and accept as a natural phenomenon. But there is a line that people can't stand and the only way for the staff to know where that line is is by listening to us. Not just the vocal few that is always talking, but to all of us. We left when it became one sided.

People do come and go. That is part of life. But if we really want to have an honest conversation, that's not all that's going on here. It's not just about DM availability either. That was my story. Let's hear yours.
Author:  Magiros [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 12:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
The Great Equalizer wrote:
There are two rather simple solutions for the DM wait time issue, first more DMs is always helpful.
But secondly and more importantly, DMs working together more and knowing what each other are doing and planning helps both in plots actually being able to connect with each other in certain ways adding to immersion and more importantly means that if one DM can't do something for a while then another can easilly take over for a bit.


Although I still think that there are more important issues than just DM wait times.


Dm group is already working together as it is. A good recent example is when Kobra helped in Galenson's plot. At least that is my understanding of it. As well another exmple is that I started something with Peeves and now working with Hackums on it, might be there is a third DM participating in it, unsure of that.

However, the fact is that a DM uses a lot of time checking details and creating what they visioned, taking over anothers creative thinking is not as easy as it sounds, sometimes the other person just doesn't neccessarily have the same ideas or feeling to it or there is a great amount of information go through.

Players come and go, a fact that wont change, as long as we have a good playerbase and good team of DMs we keep going. I personally have not stayed here due to the graphics or mechanics of the games but the quality of roleplay on this server is what keeps me interested.
Author:  The Great Equalizer [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 13:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Magiros wrote:
Dm group is already working together as it is. A good recent example is when Kobra helped in Galenson's plot. At least that is my understanding of it. As well another exmple is that I started something with Peeves and now working with Hackums on it, might be there is a third DM participating in it, unsure of that.

However, the fact is that a DM uses a lot of time checking details and creating what they visioned, taking over anothers creative thinking is not as easy as it sounds, sometimes the other person just doesn't neccessarily have the same ideas or feeling to it or there is a great amount of information go through.

Players come and go, a fact that wont change, as long as we have a good playerbase and good team of DMs we keep going. I personally have not stayed here due to the graphics or mechanics of the games but the quality of roleplay on this server is what keeps me interested.


I didn't mean occasionally bringing in other DMs to help on a plot they have, I mean actually working together to craft ideas.
I see far too often DMs saying they can't help because its another DMs area and they know nothing about it. It is the DM "Team" not the DM collection of individuals separately doing what they want.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 13:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Alright, here goes. And this isn't going to be entirely pretty, folks:

As a DM, we not only deal with plots, brainstorming, and the like. We also frequently get thorough reports of troublesome players. As a player relations guy myself, I personally tried to focus on these, and I have to say, I left rather recently (And with some conviction, I might add), because I felt an overwhelming sense of hostility among the playerbase.

If I took a step back, I could reason that it was just me "Burning out." But I know I've burned out before, but I never felt as upset or assured that I was making the right decision this last time.

There are likely some circles of the playerbase that don't interact with any of this hostility, or may not even be aware of it. But let me tell you, its exhausting-- now more than ever. And I don't think at all that only the DM's have been feeling it. Over the past few months, I've had my eyes on extreme cases of negativity, OOC manipulation, straight-up ostracizing, relentless and bitter arguments (Between players, and player/DM as well). Amia didn't feel like the home its always been, for me. Its not my place to put words in the mouth of another, but I will say that this direction that the playerbase has been traveling in is why I recently opted out.

In the same breath, however, I'll say that I've decided to come back. And I'll explain a little further a little later. Amia isn't without hope, folks.
~~~~

There are a lot of good suggestions and thoughts in this thread. I personally stand in line behind Needled's post, but I also recognize that there have been some serious errors in the past from DM's-- myself included. I left a lot of people (Khem Folk, Taelar, Winyans) in suspension, and it upset the hell out of me. I will say, however, that we're learning from our colorful history. Throughout Glim's process of departure, he's been absolutely flooding us with information, player plots, project logs, and NPC information. We're not looking to keep areas stagnant again. And we're also engaging (With priority) in the hefty process of providing ample remedies to some of these death-by-stagnation areas and plots. What's nice-- at least to me, is that I'm not surprised by any of the current points on the thread. Nor is anyone else in the DM team, I'd wager. Because its stuff we're actively trying to fix.

~~~~

I left because Amia stopped feeling like a game. I think, sometimes, that most of the hostility is brewed by folks who are forgetting that its a game as well. Have you ever looked at a table of Scrabble and violently abused the players beside you? Just because our game is more complicated, and deals with lies, good and evil, and political/physical competition, and immersion-into-character -- doesn't remove the essential element: That its a game!

I returned to Amia, because my time away helped me understand even more that it really was just a game. And I wanted to have fun with it, regardless of hostility or OOC feelings. Folks care about Amia, they really do. Its why there are topics such as these, you know? I just want to see people caring the same way about each other-- understanding that the players in this age-old game happen to be an essential piece to the puzzle.

People leave Amia for all kinds of reasons. Its really difficult to try and pinpoint a few and enlarge them to the whole. You guys have done great so far with some of the examples in this thread. I just wanted to provide an element that was perhaps untouched, or unvoiced (Because some people are actually scared to).

My biggest suggestion is to not let it stop here, at this thread. Carry your passion for seeing Amia successful away from this thread, use some of the points as fuel to fight the tides of players leaving-- and make it happen IG.

Oh, and take screenshots.

-Hackums
Author:  Pony [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 13:15 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
As to what players can do I feel that there are far fewer player held events than two years ago. In the past I played quite a few characters who provided small events to fellow characters. With Juliette DeLorai I hosted the Storytelling Union and taught bard characters the special songs. With Aluziria d'Arabett I held rituals and ceremonies at the temple of lolth in Ultrinnan. The occasional surface trip to find a sacraficial victim also helped create some contact with the rest of the server. With Sharina I did funerals, prayers and other kelemvorite religious stuff and led the charge against necromancer pcs that did not require much dm attention overall. The necromancer bbq's seem to be well remembered, even if not fondly ic. Those are the things the players can do without dm help and I intend to do more of those again, having noticed that I have not done such events for quite some time.
Author:  Pony [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 14:23 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
In response to Hackums:

Something I feel that has been a problem when speaking about these issues is that we tend to throw the playerbase into one group. So when you say that the direction the playerbase heads into you are not speaking about a small group of fifteen individuals but everyone except for the dm staff.

Those of the playerbase who do not contribute much but only focus on the negativity, be it by consistently pushing for bitter arguements, belittle people via tells and party chat and try to manipulate ooc are not the people I identify with. I certainly know when you are drawn into something like that it quickly overshadows the rest, why I do make a point of interacting with them as seldom as possible. I think as the DMs have to deal with that type of drama it quickly can become exhasperating when additional time of theirs is demanded to participate in discussions such as these. Especially when they likely already discussed it among themselves and are working on it.

Having been around since early 2005 I can only say that I feel these topics are very important. For one they allow players to address issues they feel can be improved upon instead of just letting it anoy them silently or overdiscussing it with one another until it seems much worse than it actually is. Another benefit is that DMs can make posts like yours to help the players understand better where the DMs are comming from. Most importantly, it does at times help with finding ways to improve the server. It also helps us find a direction to move towards.

Certain frustrations with members of the playerbase are certainly also not only something the DMs feel. When people whine about pvp in party chat because they lost and seek every excuse to get back at the other side ooc is the point I drop the party. With topics such as the pvp system and conflict rp we see that we are divided on issues. Everyone agrees it should be improved upon, but nobody is prepared to compromise. When a group players can not handle responsibility, like with guard free South Cordor, it ruins great roleplay oppertunity for the rest of us. I get exhasperated as well when that happens. Especially when others did a great job and created some of the most interresting storylines I remember.

That is when I feel that because of the amount of things the DMs have to deal with shorcuts are taken at times. I very much believe a guard free south cordor could have worked without just forcing criminal rp out from Cordor. It is also where I would like to see the DMs involve responsible members of the playerbase for handling these things ic. For example giving the criminal syndicate the job not to overstep their bounds to the point they make themselves too vulnerable.

But we are left with needing the DMs for more and more. Players who could contribute great storylines are restricted that makes it more difficult for them to run them, and we in turn need even more from the DMs who already have all "five" of their hands full. So perhaps giving players more responsibility and then setting expectations for members of the player base to do their share is not too much to ask from either side.
Author:  P Three [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 14:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Needled247 wrote:
2) The game mostly functions on cliques that generally stick together and rarely move around to broaden the scope of their own roleplay. Unfortunately, elitism plays an enormous part in this. Cory made a good point about the areas being kind of out of any roleplay generating reach.

3) The playerbase (and DM team) is so caught up in OOC politics, that they filter out their roleplay based on both experiences and what other people "think" of something. In my experience, and unfortunately so, it would seem that spamming people on MSN, (DM's included) is far more effective than actually roleplaying.


OMG THIS. So much. Right here.

Yeah, that's all.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 14:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Ahh, yes. I feel I should clarify that its not the playerbase in its entirety. I did concede that most people aren't involved in OOC hostility. But I do believe that it affects many, either by association or exhaustion!

One of the reasons I also mentioned it was because it was seen through the eyes of a DM. It might be entirely different from a player's perspective.
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 15:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
P Three wrote:
Needled247 wrote:
2) The game mostly functions on cliques that generally stick together and rarely move around to broaden the scope of their own roleplay. Unfortunately, elitism plays an enormous part in this. Cory made a good point about the areas being kind of out of any roleplay generating reach.

3) The playerbase (and DM team) is so caught up in OOC politics, that they filter out their roleplay based on both experiences and what other people "think" of something. In my experience, and unfortunately so, it would seem that spamming people on MSN, (DM's included) is far more effective than actually roleplaying.


OMG THIS. So much. Right here.

Yeah, that's all.


I would like to emphasis that sometimes it also just feels to people like that.

For example I know that in the past new people sometimes "didn't dare" to approach the Grove because they felt the players are all a "clique" and would ignore new ones. Where I can assure you this is not the case.

I won't say this is always the case. Surely some cliques sometimes make it hard to get into. Games aren't too much unlike RL there. The games are played by people afterall and people have specific personality traits they won't just shed because the world they now are in is virtual. Some other people on the other hand have a completely different personality in the virtual world than in the real world.

Anyhow.. what I am trying to say is to not immediately shy away just because somethin appears like a clique. Old factions especially have a core playerbase which played together for a long time nd enjoy playing together. Hence why they still do it after such a long time. This does however not always mean that they will for certain shun people from their RP. On contrary, they often are quite happy to see some new faces and get some fresh winds in the sails.

In general... as I already mentioned, people all have different personalities. OOC conflicts and IC conflicts are bound to happen. If you go to the street and collect 50 random people and toss them into a house, be assured several personalities will collide there. A game is no different than that. And the addition of being limited to text makes it even worse.

The human interaction is to a huge part dependant on expression, gesture and tone. When speaking via text we are deprived of the main part of our communication ability. This causes conflict and misunderstanding very easily.

Also the fact that the virtual world we play in is often so different from what we are used to. Racism and prejudice I feel is a big part of that. In the DnD world racism is a normal thing. Some races are just predefined as "evil" "monsters" "bad". This collides with our personal feeling of the RL of what is "right" for we learned racism is a bad thing. Though the two are not really comparable because in the DnD world some races simply are "bad", it sometimes is hard to keep the two apart.

This is why the good vs. evil, race 1 vs. race 2 is always such a delicate matter and it sometimes feels to people "meh this sucks everyone just tries to hunt my character down". And it can be frustrating.

It can be frustrating to players when they feel the DM do not invest enough time. It can be frustrating for players when they feel the DM try to "mess them up" in their plots. I felt it a lot too. But I know both sides now and I would like to explain there are always two sides to the coin.

First off, it is very hard to invest as much time DM side as the players may deserve. The "job" has responsibility, but it is not a real job. We don't get paid for it, we still have to go out 8-10 hours on top of this every day to make our living. We still have friends and family which also take time. Time is limited and hence the job sometimes can start to feel like a chore. Because you do not want to disappoint the playerbase, you want to give them as much time as you can to help their characters so you push yourself over what might be what you usually do. But that only works so long. Eventually, you reach a point where you feel drained, you get edgy and the players feel it. They get the feeling the DM is "mean" and "impatient".

Another thing that adds to this is that several players doing stuff at the same time is hard to keep up with. You try to tend the first player.. two more meanwhile have made 8 more emotes. The players think "hey the DM ignores me. This sucks." Believe me, this isn't the case most of the time. It is very very hard to keep track over several things at once so things can be delayed or sadly, sometimes entirely missed. A gentle nudge if there was no response for some time would be the best way to deal with that.

Also, I know frustration takes over quickly, but it is very very disheartening to run a plot and then to read how people take your work apart over party chat. And this happens a lot. If you are unhappy with a DM decision, write a PM, explain why you felt something felt wrong there or why you felt ignored/owned/whatever.

I can assure you, non of us runs plots with the intention to screw you over or to "give you a lesson" or whatever people sometimes feel happned there.

I will be open here, some of my breaks were taken because of that. And I know I am not the only one.

I do agree that some of the old plots which restrict and hinder players to progress finally need to be ended. And I actually just made a push some days ago into that we approach this now.

As an explanation (not an excuse): Those old plots have a huge history, they are big stuff and started sometimes years before most of our current DM team. So even for us the approach of those is hesistant and I admit, I do feel a bit nervous about them. because they are just such a huge thing which started to pile up and up over the years that it is a delicate matter to approach. But they will be approached. However, rushing that could result frustrating for both players and DM, so we need to work us into the matter and find a good approach here.

About players leaving... always a sad thing... but I have been on this server so many years and people always left. Some came back... some didn't. There are new games to play, RL situation changes and yes, of course sometimes also frustration with the server.

Well... I now said my opinion here and this is my opinion only. I do not speak for the staff I only explained my own experiences over the years as a player and a DM.
Author:  bidocks [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 15:19 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
I've been a player on Amia for a couple years now, my wife and I both. We left for a while, came back, left again (when the hard drive failed sometime last year) and came back sometime in February.

Just before we left, we had characters that were just starting to "break into" the RP world via Malatril (thanks Mal!). Up until that point, we'd not had much opportunity for plots and such with DM's. We played on a couple of other servers before and during this time too. On one, we felt like the DM team made a world for themselves and their friends, and if you weren't one of those, you're screwed. We had fun anyway for a couple of years. On the other, we were involved in major changes to the worlds. We got to fight in a war that actually made huge changes to the server, an entire city (one of the 3 main ones, equivalent to Cordor) was turned into a military state by an enemy race. People (meaning their characters) were imprisoned, questioned, detained, treated badly, etc, etc. Some was DM's, some were player characters of that race. Some people got really upset because "their city" was taken over. Now... first, it was taken over in an actual DM run plot battle, where, had things gone differently, they wouldn't have won. They won because people didn't believe the DM's would do it (I would call that metagaming, but anyway). It was taken for about a year in RL time. There was an underground rebellion formed, there were allied armies from the other areas. It involved nearly everyone on the server and was possibly the best RP I've seen. It went on for, like I said, about a year. The players were tasked with collecting materials, weapons, etc over this time for the war effort. Finally, plans were made to break through the defenses (ingenious plans I might add) and after days of fighting, the city was reclaimed. This is just one part of this war, there was much more as this race intended to take over the entire world, and could have. So, in this case, there were 2 "sides", either the allied forces or the enemy, and there was plenty of players for each side, considering the playerbase of this server. So, some won, some lost, but ALL enjoyed it in the end I believe.

The only reason we left that server was the player population was dying. At the height of the wartime RP, there might be 15 players, yes 15 spread among 5 different servers. Sometimes, for meetings and such, there could be 10-15 on one server, but that's about it.

Seeing 30-50 people on A, and a dozen on B still blows my mind as its an every day occurence.

So, we came back to Amia, tried out a bunch of character ideas, and one day.... magic. A DM interacted with us and another friend. Seemed like something that wasn't over when we finished, and sure enough.... a few days later.... more story! We LOOOVED it. We loved it so much that we tried getting other people involved, other mages (I don't want to mention names), other players. Then, the characters began researching a certain item that was in both mini-events. We took screenshots, compiled it all, and sent the DM a message, hoping we were on to something and maybe, just maybe could get some awesome rp out of this.

That was a couple of months ago.... we heard NOTHING back from the DM. At this point we are wondering if we have the right DM.... but... no response? I understand RL gets in the way, but... honestly, we were just continuing something the DM started, and THEY dropped it? Without so much as even one line in a message saying so? Again, I understand about RL, but... here was one time that we were trying to do the right thing, trying to get involved in something more than just running around killing monsters, and..... Nada.

If you read this whole thing, please know, we don't intend to leave, and based on another thread, I am trying to recover from my alt-itis and choose one character. I intend to get this character involved in.... somthing, anything, since I did have lots of fun anytime I played just one.

Thank you,

-B
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 15:27 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Its true, sometimes things like that happen. Its also incredibly unfortunate. I know I did it to a handful of players myself (Its why I can't stand how I handled plots). Though sometimes, and more often than you would think-- Pm's.. just.. get lost in the inbox. Or accidentally deleted.

We enjoy running personal quests, and the like. So if things drop off, and messages don't get answered, don't be afraid to send a few nudges here and there! Tons of folks get really frustrated about a DM forgetting them, when in most cases, its just as easy as a DM missing a message and believing that the player might have forgotten!
Author:  Amarice-Elaraliel [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 15:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
If you do not get a response from a DM in several months, sending another PM oftn is a good idea. We sometimes get a dozem PMs a day and it can happen you plan to answer and then it gets forgotten in the pile. Not nice, but it happens.

If that also doesn't work it also is an option to simply PM another DM. It can be the DM is on a break or the DM in question had RL stuff coming up and disappears for a bit. As said, not nice for the player but it can happen.

If it's generic stuff and mini events, you can just PM any DM for help should one be unavailable.

Edit: Hijacked by Hackums. :P
Author:  bidocks [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 15:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
:D Ok... we will do that. Thanks to both Hackums and Amarice-Elariel.
Author:  Magiros [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 16:20 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Well I know who I am targeting to get a hold on. ;)

One fact I would like to mention as well. I participated in one DM run event that gathered very large amount of people in one group. We had to wait for some time before getting to move on and the people started flooding the party chat with texts somewhere around following sentece "This is so boring, lets move already. Come on!" All our characters had been given IC reasons what to took place and that should not have gone to OOC level.

I felt bad for the DM and even slightly embarrased to be there. The DM's who decide to arrange an event for the players take huge amount of time and work to build everything together. So please, next time I would recommend taking others to consideration and especially think about those kind of comments, they are not helping the situation at all. In many cases patience is the key.

Also about the cliques, I have to say I agree so much on it. There are certain player groups that just happen to consist of same players often. However, rather than blaming it on them, take iniative and force yourself in there with roleplay. Usually there are very solid IC reasons as to why those certain characters stick together. I myself had great difficulties in the begining to start to rp with anyone, later one with certain famous characters as I felt they were so high and their rp was above me. Now after some great interactions, few better characters and just taking the chance and going up to them to rp, I know they are people and it is relatively easy to get into contact with them in IC level. Go there and make the change to their clique yourself.

Might have sidetracked slightly here, so my apologies for that. And I do hope I didn't go to anything specific thing there, it has happened more than once even. If DM's see it is too specific, please remove it :P
Author:  666WaysToHell [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 16:28 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Likely isn't worth having it's own specific sub-board, but what about a Role-play Request section? They won't get accidentally deleted, they'd be readily accessible by any DM, so that saves having to PM multiple DMs and/or wait months for a reply. Also a lot neater than having it all bunched up..

That might solve the issue with player-DM communication.
Author:  Kamina [ Thu, Jul 25 2013, 16:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: A Sincere Look Into Why People are Leaving Amia
Magiros wrote:
One fact I would like to mention as well. I participated in one DM run event that gathered very large amount of people in one group. We had to wait for some time before getting to move on and the people started flooding the party chat with texts somewhere around following sentece "This is so boring, lets move already. Come on!" All our characters had been given IC reasons what to took place and that should not have gone to OOC level.

I felt bad for the DM and even slightly embarrased to be there. The DM's who decide to arrange an event for the players take huge amount of time and work to build everything together. So please, next time I would recommend taking others to consideration and especially think about those kind of comments, they are not helping the situation at all. In many cases patience is the key.

Ugh this. I think I speak for everyone there that we all -really- wanted to get going, but doing any of the following is embarrasing:

-Complaining in party chat, which DMs can see.
-PMing the IC leader with "What's the hold up?".
-Attempting to get everyone to start early IC due to OOC delays.

Like, yeah it's ok to be eager or impatient, but don't be a dick.

The irony is, the main complainer got slaughtered when we entered the cave.
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