Yossarin and I had a bit of a miscommunication going on. I thought he would repost his epic essay, he thought I would do it. Anyway, I made a fresh copy, removed a few references to the previous thread (you can find the original here).

I couldn't get the original comments without chopping up the old topic, so feel free to repost anything that you think is important enough to be said twice.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

A few months ago now, I guess, we noticed the downturn in player times. It was a humbling experience. For me, for other DMs, even for Tormak who was on the team at the time. I know some of you think that he might be the kind of person to look at a detail like that and not care, but from his reaction on the DM forums, I would definitely say that he, perhaps more than a lot of us, was definitely humbled. It was apparent to him, as it was to all of us, that something needed to change. We weren't sure what, exactly, but even before we got to the point of asking you guys for feedback, we came up with one thing:

As a DM Team, we don't have a unified outlook or direction we're all moving in. We're a bunch of highly independent thinkers. Some of us work very well in little groupings and teams, but we knew that players often received very different responses to the same questions depending upon which DM they asked. While this is always going to happen to some degree, there was never any actual explanation for why there was a difference in answers, and most often it seemed like laziness, ignorance, or possibly some more nefarious reasons. (It was mostly the former two, in my estimation.) This is what I meant when I said we were several steps ahead of you on the "unified team" business, because we knew that before we even asked about the player count problem.

We came to that conclusion, which led us to asking the necessary question: "What should our unified vision be, then?"

That's when we came to you, and wanted your feedback on why the player count had descended. We were very careful about how we worded our request to you so as not to alarm you and open the door for some of the players who had their noses bent out of shape to waltz in and point and laugh and say told you so as they have already done in this thread (fortunately most of you players recognize that and have, much to my thanks, ignored the sour grapes).

You were all very helpful. Here is more or less a compilation of what we were able to pull from your feedback. This compilation is "the majority opinion", or what the most of you had to complain about:

Disproportionate Spread of DCs:

Always been a problem in your minds, will always be a problem in your minds, even when it isn't actually a problem (I'm not saying it isn't). I am saying it isn't intentional and it isn't favoritism and it isn't us screwing people over. What it is is the DM Team not creating enough opportunities for everyone. The way to fix this is to DM more, DM more, DM more, and with as many new people as one can. Once again, this is why I encouraged, earlier in this thread, for all players to get more active in game so that we actually see you and notice you in order to DC you, and also why I made the alt-itis thread (you're more likely to get involved in things that involve DMs to get DCs if you have consistent characters).

In no way, shape, or form will players ever have any say in other players getting DCs other than the system we have now, where you recommend them. We have looked at the problem, brainstormed, tried to figure it out, but we just can't find a way that isn't abusable by the players. We're sorry, but that's the truth.


The Server Feels Outdated and Areas Get Real Boring Real Fast:

Absolutely true. This is a very valid concern. Incidentally, it is also one we started working on well before we ever asked about the player count conditions. Only a handful of you whom we have picked to work with us on the project can see the forum, but we started a "Rejuvenation" project, wherein the intent is to assess the current makeup of all of the areas in Amia, on A and on B, and (1) update them with all the nice cool toys and features we have now (as well as renewed creativity and tech we have from designers and developers like Glim, Msheeler, Xaviera, Jes, and others I can't think of atm), (2) streamline them so that they make a little more sense than they do now, (3) get rid of or change the model of places that have become very stagnant and see little to no use, and (4) to ultimately create a system of module management where we can most easily integrate YOUR changes, YOUR impacts on the world quickly and efficiently. And also really struggle to bridge the gap that someone in this recently referred to as favoritism (it is, in my opinion, but not intentional favoritism) where one group gets a module update in days and another waits months. Sometimes there are very legitimate reasons for why this wait happens. Other times, there really isn't.

And just so you know, to give credit where credit is due, the Rejuvenation Project was Mosh's brainchild. It was his idea and his vision and he knew it needed to be done. I agreed 100%, and clearly so do a lot of others. This is mostly what I refer to when I say there is a LOT of technical stuff required for this to happen, and it is a slow, meandering process and I think the only way it is going to be done is if someone starts cracking the whip. Nicely. Like maybe a licorice whip that tastes as good as it hurts.


Partying and Level Ranges:

This was brought up in the feedback, and again more recently by Letum. People feel that not being able to adventure with others outside of a certain OOC level range hurts your personal RP and actually crushes the potential for good action-oriented roleplay. We discussed this, and we have a few ideas for what we might want to do, but I pointed out something to the Team that made me wonder, and I really need to ask it of the playerbase (or perhaps, just inform you)...

You all do know that you can adventure with any PC, of any level, so long as you are in the same party together, right? That means everyone only getting 1 XP? There are no rules broken when you do this. Some of you seem to be under the impression that even if you are partied together it is against the rules and you can't do it, but the truth is you can, so long as you are partied together. Now, if you complain, "OH, but we should be getting the XP for it, or at least the greenhorn ought to be!", then what it suggests to me is that there is the potential you are doing it all for the wrong reasons. But, more importantly, like the DC issue above, there's not any easy way to keep that from being horribly abused by players when DMs aren't around to notice it. As in, that level 30 softens those CR 25s into a fine meat paste before letting the level 5 step in and kick them while they're down.

That question inevitably leads me to the next matter...


IF IT'S A RULE, MAKE IT A RULE!:

Fair enough, players. We have heard you. Though we can bitch and moan and wish to the high heavens that your common sense will guide you clearly through the universe, perhaps we must lend credence to Svensk, who is so fond of quoting, "Common sense isn't common."

I am going to start a stickied thread for you in Improving Amia. If you run across something a DM tells you is a rule, and you cannot find that rule listed anywhere, then I want you to post in that thread telling us about it, and we will find a way to incorporate it in an easy way for everyone to see and know. After all, we have a Rules & Lore forum. That's my own initiative for trying to solve this problem, so I hope it satisfies.


Not Enough DM Quests:

I agree with this, and most of the team does, as well. I always feel the DM Team is very aggravated with me because I'm overly demanding sometimes and I have very high expectations of us. I really, really, really want DMs on the team DM'ing, and not playing their characters, or doing this that or the other thing, but actively DM'ing. Big plots, small events, whatever. Something to keep you guys interested and having fun. This is why I wind up with some very extreme views about what we need to do and how we need to go about fixing problems.

Is it a matter of having more DMs on the team? Maybe. However, you can have too many cooks in the kitchen, and the more DMs you have, the harder it is to maintain that unified approach we want to take with the server and with our playerbase.

A lot of you say, "we like smaller events". And that's very reasonable. Long-running plots of the like I tend to run do not lend themselves to a changing cast of characters. Smaller events, or one-offs, as they are called in my book, are critical to helping give a lot of PCs the fodder they need to develop their own characters. A lot of the time when I see that comment about wanting smaller events, my initial response is to take it personally because I feel like I am being told that I, as a DM, need to do that.

There's a reason I don't, if any of you have wondered. The fact is, I don't like one-offs. I don't like small events that open and close in an hour. As a player, I don't like them, and often don't bother playing in tabletop sessions where the game is a "one-off" and nothing is going to come of it. I've said it before, but I'm hardwired for the longer story with consequences and outcomes. But just because I am not the DM to do smaller events (I can do them, sure, I just don't like to and thus I don't think I do them very much justice, I don't think anyone has ever been in a one-off I did that actually enjoyed it) that doesn't mean others on the team shouldn't do them.

Our answer to this problem is incorported, actually, into the next major concern we saw sprouting up...


Amia Needs a Major Plot Arc:

Some of you think you're so clever in coming up with good ideas for what major story arcs would really get a lot of people involved. When you see these things come up, you're going to crow and say, "Ah hah, they took my suggestion!"

The reality is that a lot of these suggestions, we already had in mind. But you're welcome to take the credit if you so choose (I would prefer you take the credit for getting involved in the major plot arc as necessary and using it to change your world.)

The fact of the matter is, I have always believed this is necessary, but it is very, very difficult. We have only just started discussing as a team how we are going to go about this, and I suspect that I am going to be a major leader in this department. It is the realm I work the best in, and I really hope the rest of the team is not going to feel that I am "telling them what to do" as much as suggesting to them what they might want to do in order to really make the server's overacing storyline work for you guys, the playerbase.

As Iron says, I am not going to show our full hand here, but I am going to repeat what I said earlier in this thread: you should see a lot more opportunities cropping up in the near future. Things happening. Take the risks. I want to see Cordor one day be a player run city, but there is such a long history of players not taking responsibility for their IC positions of power when it comes to how they handle other players, how they treat them well, how they offer them opportunities for RP. By you folks getting involved, the DM Team can literally see your intent. We can measure your intent, and we can judge your intent and your value in this department far, far better than you simply saying OOC in a thread, "You guys just need to change the way you do things and let us suddenly run our world."

Our goal is not to make this process a chore for you, btw, but to make it fun.

An overarcing storyline requires both connected series of events, such as the kind I am running, AS WELL AS a lot of "one-offs" or smaller events that, while they are self-contained and fun for those who are involved them, are in and of themselves spawned from or have some relation to the major arcing storyline (or don't, because random things do happen.) What does this make room for? It makes room for a lot of players who don't normally see action to be involved in it, and then to get out of it and go back about their own business if they so choose. However, those small events, if they are connected in some small way to something greater, immediately becomes an "open door" for those players to try to get involved in a larger way.

You don't need to tell me that all of us, myself included, have dropped the ball in the department of "getting people included". I still take the criticism of one player very seriously...I don't remember the players name, but he was upset that during the Vodak/Triumvir event, he had been working very diligently before the event and wanted to be involved, but then my very arbitrary choice to cut down on the number of people I had in the "small event" dungeon crawl I had set up at the Triumvir left this player, who had dedicated a lot of time and energy prior to that time, out in the cold. My heart sank at reading that. Mostly because I realized he was right. Somehow in the hustle and bustle and my desire to do what I considered a "small event" (the Triumvir/Vodak episode was my version of a small event, btw, so you can see that even my scale of small event is a little out of whack), I had completely overlooked this poor player. I hope that whoever that is has the ability to forgive me and give me another chance. The fact that I don't even remember right now who it was doesn't bode well for that (sorry), but the fact that I remember the criticism and take it as seriously as I do should say something.

In the end? We're not only working on this, but you're probably about to see it coming up soon. But I will say that we're trying to take a unique approach with this. We want to try to get away from constantly dropping things out of the DM sky into your laps, and actually try to "tie-in" the major arc with some of the things that you guys, as players, are organizing. Why? Well, the things you organize yourselves means you are getting a lot of players to show up for it, which is something we usually like. And it means that when we briefly co-opt your event for something related to a major arc (which I hope no one ever takes offense to), then everyone who is there will feel that they were part of something special. And it is organic. And best of all, it gets you a DM for your personal event to help you organize and put up pretty window dressing or whatever.

I've been typing a bit too long and my back hurts and I my be becoming unclear in my attempt to illuminate you. If so, I apologize. You are welcome to ask for clarifications afterwards (with no guarantee you'll get them. I have to keep some mystique, you nosy bastards.)


Economy:

Mea culpa on removing the gold drop on monsters. Blame me, personally. I'm the one who fired the gun on that, but I did it without knowing that we couldn't have the intended replacement for that money up in a reasonable amount of time. While this is an issue that we still intend to fix, the truth is, we have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

Though, do expect some lootbin changes coming up. Sensible ones that shouldn't screw with you too much.


Make RP Hubs RP Hubs Again:

We agree. Accomplishing this, however, requires us to utilize the Rejuvenation Project noted above, as well as a crafty use of our major plotline arcing, so when we do those things, making areas into actual RP Hubs will be something we keep in mind.

Though to those of you with specific comments regarding Cordor? You won't be seeing the portal rods coming back anytime soon unless you go after that problem IC'ly. You also won't be seeing the NPC populations opinion of you adventurers changing unless you tackle that, as well, IC. Sorry to do that to you, I really am, but it needs to be earned IC to be appreciated and used well by you afterwards.


DMs Helping Factions/Playing Favorites with Factions:

We saw this complaint come up, but it really is a hard one. We also didn't talk about the issue in depth, so, I'm going to open it up to you. My own personal opinion is not very helpful to the discourse, because while I see factions as a "natural outgrowth" of roleplay, I am of the opinion that people just don't THINK enough about how a faction works and how it needs to work in order for them to be sensible, successful, and become "useful" to DMs when it comes times for DMs to involve factions in major stories. While I suppose I could try to make another Alternates post like I did to try to explain how I think you should go about factions, I don't think it would be entirely helpful because you would be likely to disagree with me and it might come off preachy and even too demanding of you, because I reiterate, I really don't think most of you THINK enough about factions and thus you wind up with a faction that doesn't go anywhere, lacks purpose.

Don't get me wrong, I think that as players you have collectively learned a lot over the years about how your factions should work in Amia. There has been marked improvement and I am currently mostly content with how they are now.

Anyway, the issue brought up wasn't so much with factions themselves as with the interaction of DMs and factions, how some factions die in the shade while others flourish in the glow of DM attention (and too often people see a DM PC in those flourishing factions and then we have some issues.)

So, since we didn't give this issue a proper treatment, you're welcome to give it some discussion. Please keep it civil.


DM Behavior on the Forums

Welp.

I would like to say this problem fixed itself first of all. Some of you may be of the opinion that we are still lacking in this department. Do not refer to anything older than, oh, a month, we'll say. Suffice it to say, we read your message loud and clear. I don't think we'll need a Head DM to moderate us, because those of us on the team currently have seen the player drop, been humbled by it, and to put it succinctly, we know that there ARE consequences for having a shitty attitude with players. We lose them. And then we lose the server.

I would volunteer Silent for you to send complaints to in the future, but he is going to be busy with school. So I am just going to nominate us all for the time being. We're all very good about sharing PMs we receive from players with each other. If this becomes a problem again, you know how to get our attention.


There's Not Enough Opportunity for Good vs. Evil Roleplay. I am a Badass and want to Fuck the Good Guys. I am a Good Guy and want to Crush Evil:

Hee hee hee...now I'm going to be deliberately vague. We have something in the works that we think might assist with your concerns in this department. All hail Disco.



There. I think I outlined this as well as I could and gave you the response you were looking for that shows we have thought about it the feedback, we have taken action, and we do have a plan (a plan that is also being more firmly developed).

I'll inform you in a while. I guess this will be one of my more controversial additions to Amia, so I just start with a controversial opinion which kinda explains my rationale behind Project X. I'll start with a short and over-the-top observation and end with a mission statement.

I see a love/hate relationship between the RP-elite and the PvP-paupers. The first think that they are the zenith of Amia, and complain a lot about people spoiling their party with their 'powerbuilds'. Many of the action guys left (not always voluntarily) and then the elite thinks "I am boooooored". Mind that I could swap "rp" with "good" and "action" with "evil", and most of my (outrageous) analysis would still be valid.

Well, boys and girls, let's face it: 95% of NWN is dedicated to slaughter, war, criminal activities, and burning people with funny visual effects. It's Diablo, but with more numbers and a printing company behind it. Beating people's heads in is what the game is made for, all the Sim stuff we had to build in ourselves.

But, you're right... we only want 'functional violence'. No killing for fun, only killing for RP-profit. We also don't want complaints, so it needs to be organised and evadable. On the other hand, why can't brutality be fun and inviting enough to get even the biggest hippies involved? Why can't a halfling toughen up and beat a half-orc's arse in mass combat? Come on, you suburban decadents: prepare yourself for war!

At least I warned you...

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Definitely an interesting development for a Gnomish Magician who seeks peace and to try to better the world without violence if he can

Wow... that really was an essay.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

Yups, you can copy whole topics, which I wanted to do first and then delete everything that came before it. But it it gave me an error and only copied everything up to this post. The post is so long that it broke the system.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Concerning factions: if an overarcing storyline is what we're edging towards, then favoring certain factions is a good thing. I don't think factions should ever be restricted with OOC rules any more than they already are, but that doesn't mean we can't encourage people to work with certain large factions that fit the setting and serve the storyline. I see nothing wrong with DMs supporting the factions they want and need to flourish in order to have material for plots. A story needs stability, and in addition to recurring characters it means faction continuity. There should always be some sort of a mages' community, for example. This favoring should ideally be IC, though: NPC support and resources. So this is partly a separate issue with not getting module updates that have been earned IC in a timely manner - that's clearly a problem with allocating designer time, if it happens.

You can always start your own faction, but there should be a few that get active DM involvement and have an important role in the storyline regardless of which minifaction is the flavor of the month.

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A thing that gets me, and some others when PvP is happening (One reason why I DO NOT like PvP on Amia, or any other RP server, I much prefer to go to a PvP server when I feel the need to bash someone's head) is that quite often the opposition can't just walk away, they want to try and render the character unplayable, which isn't their job. Yet they go out of their ways to do it. Now I haven't PvP'd in a long time on Amia, save for friendly sparring rounds in the Arena, so I don't know if that has changed.

Some people also go out of their way, often when they have lost to try get into PvP with the one who has beat them the last time(s), and will continue this sometimes until they have won. It's all legit mind, since they are RP'ing, giving a proper out, but it seems like borderline harrassment when they are going out of their way to find a certain character in game just to PvP them, even if it does have the RP to back it up.

Now I'm not saying there can't/shouldn't be revenge RP/PvP, just, when it's happening so often it becomes more common than a Cordor Southie it's grows annoyingly tedious.

Sorry if that is off topic or anything, but I felt the need to express that to what you said.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

It's a dead horse, but I'll just point out the contradiction in your post: first you complain about consequences (making a character unplayable - everyone should at least once in their life permakill or temporarily retire a PC due to someone's actions) and then you complain that there are none (the cycle goes on). You can't have your cake and eat it too, or whatever the saying is. (I've always wondered how you can eat a cake you don't have, though.)

It's probably pointless to talk about it before we see Disco's revolutionary invention, though. It's not like there's any new feedback to be given at this point.

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O.o

I'm not complaining about there not being any consequences.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

First of all: don't be to harsh on yourself. NWN1 is a really old game by now and more or less all RP worlds out there stand deserted. The only reason Amia is still populated is due the DM's doing such hard job to make it a living world with constant new areas and content.

Every time a new game enters the market (WoW, LoL, Diablo 3, GW2 and so on) there will be a drop in players since many of the players in Amia also play other games. Eventually, some of those will return to Amia. That can be the reason to the latest dip in the player base.

As long as the areas are updated, new monsters are put into the world, new quests are created and so on, players will keep returning to Amia. As long as you don't make it harder than it already is, the base will continue to dwindle, but at a slower pace.

The last months rule changes against particularly solo players in a time when finding a party is more or less impossible if you don't know friends that also play NWN in Amia, is not so positive for keeping the player base. Removing gold drops for low levels characters and prohibit raise in the gateway are two ways to kick out presumptive players. In my own opinion, it would be done in the opposite way: raise gold drops for low levels and make it possible to raise a dead solo player without the xp hit you have to take now. The gold hit is only a problem for epic characters as long as more gold can be found in drops from defeated enemies. Having nerfed the possibility to sell items for full price recently so only a chosen few knows where to find the very few traders that pay more than 25k for an item isn't exactly making the server more fun to play in either.

If I want to have a fun way to develop a character, I play in Amia, if I want to have a sheer h*ll raising a character in levels, I play in Arelith or Richterm – Revenge. But as you seem to do now, slowly converting Amia to a hardcore server, is a bad idea. Those servers already exists out there. It's better to keep Amia as it always was; a fairground of magic and gold, a nice place to hunt and RP without to much problem and with a reasonable chance to get a player to level 30 within just a handful of years gameplay.

IronAngel, there is a huge difference between letting someone perma your character as part of an epic plot curve, compared to some random PvPer you've only met once throwing your corpse in a volcano.

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Pfft, I've always wondered why you would have cake if you are not going to eat it. Stupid saying, hah!


Well, no one can perma your character unless you perma them (of course, DMs can). If they toss you in a volcano, you can come back after a day or so or something.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

There's no 'perma' in my plan!

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Hello all I am known IG as Thomas Mason or Dena fuego my two charachters that I stick to so far.
I have played amia for over 6 months and it is the greatest NWN server I have been on to date considering I first baught the game when it came out. Now on some things I agree and some things I disagree. when I first started playing this server I found it well thought out and planned now given any server is going to have its good points and its bad but unless I tried to play a week wiz or sorcerer high int or cha respectively and low con I have never had a problem soloing on the server you just have to get in there and figure out where to go. As for Gold drops and low level char making money well to look on it in a realistic sense we are talking about the dark ages here very few people in those societies wether real or fictional ever had mass amounts of gold coins and treasure.
So the basis is that a new adventurer they go out and earn through blood sweat tears and sometimes death and luck thier wealth and fame and fortune. I personaly started D&D with Advanced D&D pen and paper games when I was 12 years old I am 34 now. Does anyone remeber sitting up long nights on weekends and playing for hours and at the end you might if you were lucky have attained as a low level char sevral hundred gold and a magical trinket or two ? I know NWN changed all that but come on thats part of the fun if getting rich IG wasnt a challenge weather from building your craft or grinding to get the gold then it would be boring. As far as harder Amia is and never has been hard look at arelith as you mentioned and you think the death system even for solo players is flawed go and create a char in lala and die talk about hardcore you die you go to the fugue a facsimilie of your body is left behind and must either recieve a raise or a true res wich costs crazy gold and then you have to wait in the fugue all this time while thats going on if you respawn you have to buy a fragment of your soul back and each time it costs more and more along with the xp loss and the gold loss regardless if you get a raise or a true res you still get that loss. So all in all I give the DM team a salute for all thier hard work and when I get finished with the next two semesters of school and mabey before then I will definatley be returning. so to all those who know me peace love and God of your understanding blessings be upon you
Thomas Mason/Dena Fuego

As an aside, to my knowledge 30k is the max any merchant currently IG will pay, and if any are found that offer higher than that, it's an oversight and it should be corrected. There are no "secret merchants" with higher buy rates that those "in the know" can run to.

*edited to reflect proper cap*

*-*-*-*-*

And completely unrelated to merchants, but back more towards the topics on Yoss' post... I've been spending a bit more time on one of my low-level alts recently just to see how keenly felt the lack of quests really is, and I can tell you that I'm working something up to help alleviate this.

I know that uncapped merchants were a (fixed, to my knowledge) oversight but I was fairly sure that the few 30k merchants were there on purpose. In fact, it was stated when the changes came out that 30k was the upper limit, even though 25k is the more commonly seen one...

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Yup, you're right. Some of the more challenging to get to (but not hidden) merchants are 30k not 25k was just pointed out to me

I fail to see how that makes gaming so much more fun. Point is that if I feel masochistic I have a choice to play in such worlds. Richterm Revenge is precisely as what you described but without a chance to get out of the realms of death unless someone else raise you. Its rough, its hard, but plaing in such RP world is a choice of mine. I see Amia as the opposite and please, let it continue to be that way so I have somewhere to go when I feel for a more easy going kind of game play.

I don't see any of these type of changes in The Essay, so I''d safely assume they're not on the priority list.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Quite frankly I'm not fussed about the whole "we needs the epic plotz!" note in the essay; they never occur in my timezone anyway so I couldn't care less. But, overall the direction as highlighted in that wall of text seems good and I'm intrigued enough to see what happens.

Whoever mentioned that nwn is old was right on the money however; as a game platform its not getting any younger. Beyond special occasions, its an unrealistic goal to attempt to fill the server like 6 years ago. Just do your best, noone's expecting more then that.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

I've only one thing to say.
[my essay (Wall of Text DC 46 vs will) on the matter that i previously had in making disappeared, lucky you; this shall be more to the point and less analytical. EDIT: Well guess what, walls of text'r'us >.>]

Do something about the epic loot system.

It's insulting.

You strive to create a rich RP environment and quality gameplay, and yet implement a game mechanic plucked directly from Diablo (magic find runs, except here to increase MF rate you drag more people into it...), which directly promotes powerbuilds and mind-fucking, tedious grinding, detrimental to frequency and the quality of interactions.

This system creates imbalance between players who focus on quality RP, and players with the hack and slash mindset. In other words, when pvp between groups happens as an inevitable conclusion to some dispute - the millionaire munchkin ogres always win. The ones with actual developed characters lose.

Find balance please.

I realize there is no easy way to solve this issue. Removing the system and dropping everything on the DC system instead will not solve the problem either, because DC's have their own distribution issues, and DM's have RL's too.

But here's a couple of ideas.


Idea no. 1

The first solution i can think of is redesigning the areas where epic loot dropping bosses dwell. Make them larger and significantly more challenging, with tricks and traps, so that getting to the boss and defeating him would take a full, well composed and prepared party, and about two hours of time. In case of victory, -every- participant would receive one random epic item, that's part of a lootbin pool composed of general items, and items made for one of the character's classes (as in, everyone finds something for himself in the dragon's hoard).

Epic, perilous, truly challenging adventures that require teamwork and preparation to succeed? A certain reward for your time and effort? Might work, might not.

PRO's:
-People spend less time grinding, because they eventually get the items they dreamed of, not some generic shit like +5 hammers.
-Promotes socializing. Easier to beat the challenge eventually if you're a part of a group or a faction.
-More immersive experience, as opposed to repetitive tedious work [I know, i fucking tried and it's horrible and pointless; a month of grinding and i got a warforged 2-bladed sword for my wizard, at which point i started preparing my previous essay...]

CON's:
-...i had one, but then i found a solution - a reasonable bunch of epic dungeon areas on the entire mod. After boss is defeated, all characters receive a token which will prevent them from getting loot from the same boss again (to disable WoW-style raiding bands). Acquisition of new epic loot would have to be regular trade or DC requests.
-Well there actually is one real con - devs would have to invest significant amount of time to design the adventures.


Idea no. 2

This one is slightly different. Easier in terms of toolset work, perhaps harder to get done right. Maybe it's even silly, but it's an idea, so here goes.

Instead of bosses dropping loot, they could drop crafting components. Those components alone are useless, and it requires several of them to craft an epic item of your choice.

Variant 1: It's as it is, simply swapping complete items in boss lootbin to components.

PRO's:
-Not a whole lot of toolset work. System gets modified instead of replaced. All it takes is creating item blueprints (recipes) and a selection of crafting components.
-Possibly a reduction in grinding. Say, you want item X. You do a bit of boss hunting, find one or two components that fit the recipe, buy the rest from other players or an auction. [Right now getting what you want is entirely dependent on luck factor. Minimal chance to actually get what you want from a boss, also thin one to find item X on an auction. Hence - to get what you really want, you grind.]
-More bearable acquisition of epic loot for players that despise grind.
-Less useless, generic epic items flooding the market.
-And lastly, the hack'n'slash guys will probably get decked out to the teeth faster, but so will the RP guys. Either way, there's a point where you just can't wear more shit, so power limit is reached, but at least epic loot is in the hands of both groups. Also, the grinders might get bored of the grind for the sake of grind eventually and move on to showing off on shining knight parades or something... at least they'll stop for gods sake...

CON's (or just things to figure out, which sounds nicer;p):
-Difficult to balance.
-Well what can i say, might simply not be what the Team is looking for. All i'm saying is that it's a step towards balancing epic loot distribution more equally among different player groups.


Variant 2: Increase the epic component drop rate significantly. Components can be crafted into an epic item [specific recipes?] after an approved IC request on the forums. (Recipes with) skill requirements. DC cost (though much lower)?

PRO's:
-More RP, less grind. That's it.
-...

CON's:
-I guess more work for the Team to review and grant the items.
-...

That's it, that's all i have -.- I realize those might be unrefined musings; whether those ideas fit the general plan for this particular system, the Team would have to decide.

PS. This broadcast was brought to you by a concerned player that feels that the module leaves a lot to be desired... We in the Wood Party... uhh, i mean, i feel very strongly that the current epic loot system is one of the largest issues that lead to frustration, disintegration and division in the player base. We need a system that caters to all instead of only those that can bear it. We need a system that is a part of the world, instead of a shameful, addictive activity.

AND, WE INTEND TO FIGHT! *slams fist on desk*

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Mark it zero!

Well said, totally agree. Option 1 looks best, and then make bosses spawn only drop once a reset. Boom.

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You dare mock the Tibbly one, catcherer of drowses?

Whoa, hold your horses right there. That is a crass generalization, one that is both untrue and insulting. Who are you to say that anyone who beats your "developed" character in a bout of PvP is any less of a roleplayer than you are? I can think of multiple people who are both powerful mechanically and exceptional roleplayers. Avadon springs to mind as a premium example.
[The last I saw, you played a blatant powerbuild yourself, but I naturally won't delve into details]

As for your first point against "mindless grinding" vs. roleplay: While Amia is a roleplay server first and foremost, it is built to cater to more than a single category of players, your abhorred "grinders" included. As an aside, you can get epic stuff yourself with exceptional roleplay in the form of DC request items. Nobody is forcing you to do dungeon dipping, it's entirely a matter of choice. As for the "epic, two hour super boss runs", these should be DM events alone, or you're actually promoting powerbuilding by making some persistent, super difficult dungeons on the module.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

...You're insulting me when you speak so badly about the Epic loot system.

Do you have any idea how much roleplay i have gotten out of farming X gear, then bribed Y adventurer to do Z thing in order to get X item? And that's just a fraction of the usage i've had for my epic gear grinding...

I have fallen paladins.
Persuaded Blackguards.
Bribed fiends.
And blackmailed pretty much everybody!

Shame on you!

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I love the anti-powerbuild/gamer/etc ideology.

Powergaming: It's like people get to level 30 with epic skills, feats, and fighting perks, and then forget that that you had to do something to obtain that, that wasn't talking with people in a safely guarded city.

Powerbuilding: When you realize that you fucked up your build, it is suddenly easier to change your build into a "roleplay build" (whatever that is) and then call everyone else a powerbuild, because someone else took the time to logically deduce ways to ensure their character doesn't suck.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

This will only create characters with boosted Craft Armor, Craft Weapon and Spellcraft.



You argument with Diablo "shit" loot solution, and yet this idea is a rippoff from Warhammer Online / WoW - two most grinding - based games ever.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)

Powergaming and bad roleplay aren't mutually exclusive and you insult quite a few players to hint that it might be, as well as a few DMs.

As for epic loot well, I don't ever see a system being introduce by which -every- member gets a piece of epic loot, the economy is already ballsed up the last thing we need is a huge influx of epic items.

Theres a simple solution to your problem of mindless grinding, don't do it. Go out with a party and roleplay. I make a point of DCing groups I see dashing around and actually roleplaying, and tsking at those that run around in silence.

However, my old server used to have epic dungeon runs by which players were sent to various horrendous dungeons (such as Nerull's palace) to fight foes they wouldn't usually tackle and actually have to employ tactics to overcome mechanically powerful creatures. I'm not sure how viable it is for a server like Amia but maybe its something to look into.

Another solution could be to tack up the percent chance of how often epic loot drops relative to the amount of party members. So 2% instead of 1%. So a party of 6 would have a 17% of scoring one piece of epic loot, they then have to decide who gets it!

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Cool your heels folks. Don't go getting the flamethrowers out.

Yes.

Epic item should be an item not everybody has. I kinda like the epic item for DC's idea, for example. It works fine, you have to provide RP background, etc... , why not.

Or, as I mentioned before, and I am heavily digging for that - Make an epic dungeon where, if killed, you drop loot (gold and various items). Make it challanging, make it risky.

I hate to hear "Oh, epic item for sale - 500 grand" on a server where gold is as useless as tits on pope (on higher levels, that is). When I hear epic item, I see something unique, something you have to work hard to deserve.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

The Loot Bins always have been a matter of discussion. I grind a lot in the lower levels (testing, testing, testing) and saw one after the other boring weapon or useless piece of armour coming by (face it, you use 1 out of 8 armour types, and 1 or 2 out of god knowns how many types of weapons we have). So I filled that bin with useless, but funny stuff. Stools, campfires, random items, consumables, that sorta stuff. Don't like it, sell it. Just like the weapons.

Quite sure it makes a lot of people curse, but I like it.

And I did rip off Diablo with the random monsters, names and items. I LOVE programming random stuff. It's a challenge. However, I don't think you can say we ripped off Diablo with the standard loot bins. That's like saying we ripped off NWN by using NWN. That's how the game works, and if you don't like it you might want to try MS Flight Simulator or Super Mario Bros for a change of flavour.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

It was my understanding that epic loot drop % is a flat 5%, regardless of how many people are in the group.


Agreeing with this.



Also this.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I would like to highlight this.

When I first play Amia, I happened to bump into a "boss" kobold. I was thinking - damn yeah. And when he dropped the random (yellow) item, I was like HELL YEAH x2.

Random items are top notch. Random creatures are even better (though something more extra than higher HPs would do them justice. Like some extra spells or abilities, hell... they have 100% drop!). Bastard Sword +1 - boring sh!te. But give it a name with some tiny extra enchantment (aka Bileblazer ((+1 and 1d4 fire, my first "random" sword and the name I will hardly ever forget))) and you refresh the game.

More random the merrier. Creatures, items, NPC's... MOAR!!1!1!1

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

+1

Sell it however you want..

I will /never/ understand a paladin with rogue levels. Never. Nope. Don't care what your half-assed excuse is. Sneak attack + Paladin = GODSMITE.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

This is when, ironically, Paladin + Bard makes sense. A singing Pally

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

To be on-topic again. I have been playing in servers with a randomized script for spawns. It makes them appear on a larger surface, more widely spread, and there is a possibility to have randomized monster of the same CR in the spawn. Sadly, I don't know the name of that spawning system, but it would be a quite simple way to make the encounters more versatile.

I am arrogant enough to say that there is no spawning system more versatile and flexible than ours. It's just not being used to its full potential. It takes a few clicks on the website to assign new spawns to an area, and you can assign multiple groups which each consist of multiple creatures. You can set different creatures to be spawned at day or night (see some areas in Caraigh for that), assign various die rolls to get the number of critters, change the spawn radius, etc without even looking at the toolset.

To give you an idea how it looks behind the scenes, here's a few screenshots.

Part of the area list (name|cr|dm visits|pc visits|resref|last visit)
Area with 2 out of 3 spawngroup slots filled and a 3r one to be added
Options for one spawngroup
Detailed view of one critter
Critter list
Area view with spawnpoints and -groups

If you find anything on the Vault that even comes close to this, I'll eat my cap. So the tools are there, that's for sure.

As a side note: you don't want true randomized spawning, at least I'd not fancy Umber Hulks in Amia Frontier or sharks in the UD.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

What's wrong with a paladin aiming at your weak spots ...

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

Absolutely, 100% correct.

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

Christ, can you stick to the topic? At least 50% of posts here are irrelevant to the mission statement we're supposed to discuss further. (Hence my decision not to reply earlier - I did notice your objections, Anubis and Didi.)

Disco's system is pretty awesome. I imagine the problem is that not many DMs really know the critters and have the kind of technical touch to comfortably make the most of it. But it would be rather cool if you used that to effect spawn changes in reaction to plots, like monsters fighting over territory or whatever. (I'm sure you sometimes use it just like that, already.)

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Yups, in the UD the Beholders and Illithids are at it all the time!

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

Are they like that for real, though? Like, if I walked into Area X right now, might I stumble upon a band of beholders and a band of mind flayers trying to kill each other, and I could just sit back with popcorn and watch the show? Or are they just declared to be rivals by the plot overseers, but don't interact mechanically until a DM proactively possesses a spawn somewhere and has them act out the rivalry?

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

It's only 100% antithetical to honourable fighting which is part of the paladin's entire schtick, is all.


And as for the future of the server? I put in my two cents already. Less Grind. More RP. Put in a lever that levels you up to 30 if you don't damned well WANT to grind, because I don't, and so far as I'm concerned grinding has precious little to do with the RP that is relevant to this server.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

In regards to Beholders/Illithids, they are like that in the Underdark on B. Always trying to kill steal, the jerks.

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

That's kind of awesome.

Though I realized, in the time since I asked that question, that what I was asking about is exactly the case for the goblins and kobolds in the Amia Frontier. Which is kind of cool conceptually, and probably kind of fun to program and implement mechanically, but doesn't seem to be much more than background noise in any practical ground-level sort of way, and certainly doesn't have much narrative impact, so far as I can tell. It is any different in the Underdark? Like... it would be awesome if there were a way for PCs to takes sides in the fight, help one side or the other gain or lose territory, etc.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Well... I guess this is a good moment to give some details about what I am cooking atm.

I made a system that allows a dm to quickly make a battle scenario. It's made for Good vs Evil, but I'll try to make it generic enough for use in the UD, or for fights between War Knights and whatever they have a beef with this week.

The DM selects a string of areas, of which the first and last one automatically become starting points for both parties. In each area one to three objectives are placed. These can be pimped with placeables, or just be put next to some landmark that's already in the area. Just click in the area, pick an appearance and name it, and that's that.
Areas in a scenario
Adding an objective

Players start in one area, and conquer 'neutral' objectives in the direction of the opposite faction. They will meet somewhere in the middle and need to duke it out from there. You can only take objectives in 'contested areas', which basically means you can't just sneak along your opponent and start capturing objectives three areas away. Fighting is focussed in one or two areas, the rest are locked. I made a table showing this for just a few areas. Objectives are guarded by NPCs of the opposing faction (or the normal spawns in the area when an objective is still neutral).
Gameplay outline

The DM can change a lot of gameplay settings for a scenario, such as blocking Raise scrolls, porting options, team names, spawn numbers, etc. For the RP stuff there are options for making descriptions and convo's for NPC's. I want to make this system work on 6 level ranges as well (2-5,5-10, 10-15, etc).

We haven't decide much on rewards and stuff, but I think it would be nice to link PC's to the loot bins, so they drop a cigar when they die, but not one out of their own box. You will get bragging items, though. On the forum you will be able to follow the proceedings, and if you do well you'll find a nice medal in your inventory. We will have nasty respawn penalties, but they will be limited to the battle (ie: no gold and xp penalties, but expect your stats to suffer badly for the duration of the scenario).
Score list

When a battle is fought and one side has won, the areas will be oriented to that side for a few days. Think about corpses of the opposition littering the place, different spawns, victorious banners, etc. Perhaps even some nice shop that can be used only by characters who fought on the winning side. No promises for the latter, though, that's a bit of a challenge to program.

Anyway, the idea is to get maximum mileage in game with minimum effort for the DMs. It also should be fun for everybody. You can PvP, fight against NPCs, heal your comrades, muster fresh troops... make it your own game.

Perhaps Amarice can add some more info, she's been testing this a lot with me and was quite sceptical about it when we started a few weeks ago.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

It migh tjust be that I've been playing too much dota2 and guild wars 2 world PVP but that looks great!

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Okay, so I'll make the inevitable analogy, I guess.

So, it's kind of like an elaborate Capture the Flag setup? That's... hm. That could be kind of awesome, if it's used in a way that ties into larger narratives or plot arcs. I'm cautiously optimistic.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

I believe that is how we intend to use it, though there are some glaring issues with doing so that we have to consider.