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Wizard vs Melee
https://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74519		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  MisterLich [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 7:09 AM ]
Post subject:  Wizard vs Melee
Warning: The following may seem a bit whiny. I don't know how to make it not sound whiny, so you've been warned.



Currently, a wizard vs a meleer is a bit of an odd situation.

Wizard casts acid sheath and premonition - +5 DR is easy to break at high levels, especially if someone for some reason casts GMW on your weapon, and the melee will, if properly built, do more damage (or be able to soak way more damage) than you can with acid sheath, making it an inconvenience at best.

Wizard casts thunderclap, wail of the banshee, finger of death, hold monster, or a bigby's spell, and hopes they have either got incredibly low saves compared to the average geared epic level fighter, or hopes they have a very bad AC for purposes of a bigby's spell - and even then, restoration cures some bigby's spells, for absolutely no reason other than "wizards op".



How can a wizard either kill, immobilize, or decrease the AB/attack-viability of a fighter-type who has very high (30+ minimum) saves (a realistic expectation once you get to the very high levels), either lots of hp or lots of melee damage, and possibly a +5 weapon? Right now, it seems hopeless to fight a well equipped fighter-type at a similar level to me, and in terms of lore, an epic wizard should realistically be able to best any non-magical person that isn't insanely well equipped or much higher level; this is an RP server with other people on it, so I realize that's a bit of an unfair thing to say, but I do at least want one way I can beat someone like that, when all they have to do is walk up and smack me, and have restoration potions in their inventory. Good gear for a fighter means he counteracts a wizard; good gear for a wizard means he gets more spells/day that can't harm the well equipped fighter.

The only time I've won pvp against such a foe was when, as luck would have it, the monk was both lower level than me (and thus his SR didn't fuck me over), and he must've had almost no gear for fortitude, so a single Wail of the Banshee killed him. Regular characters that have been around even a short while, will have at least 30 fortitude save, if not much higher, making my necromancy utterly useless.


Honestly, the only solution I can think of, is remove the ability to "cure" big giant green hands of evocation with restoration. Then we can have a -10 AB debuff so that, when the fighter inevitably uses a true strike potion, he won't always have 60+ AB and be completely unable to be defended against. Or, just make true strike potions harder to get somehow, because they're silly. Anyone got any better ideas? Am I just being incredibly un-creative? I've been playing NwN for a few years and the only solution I had was "Timestop and IGMS" (which wouldn't work on high HP characters, because you only have so many spells and they can get potions of heal really easily), but we can't even do -that- on this server.
Author:  Alaria- [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 7:43 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Black Blade of Disaster + Greater Sanctuary. Should work right?

The power a Wizard can achieve on the server is really high - especially with summons. Looking past the classic spellbook, casters have the potential to design their own spells that they can use in PvP. Others have already done that and have used them in PvP with great success.

With this said, the server is not balanced around PvP.
Author:  MisterLich [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 7:48 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
If you use Gsanc, all summons are un-summoned. I tried it a while back in the Illithid lair.


Having to design specific spells that may or may not be accepted, and take valuable DC's, seems kind of.... Lame. I know the server's not designed around PVP, but a large part of role play revolves around conflict, and mechanical conflict should be viable for both archetypes, but it -seems- like it passively favors melee the way Amia is set up, which is kind of irking. PvP normally favors wizards, but I don't really want that either. I guess I'm just trying to figure out how my wizard can get into a tussle with someone because, maybe their settlements are at war, and I don't think "well I'm definitely dying". Having to spend DC's on a spell I have to design seems kind of odd. What kind of spell can I design that would be allowed, that wouldn't be game breaking, but let me pvp melees more effectively? An acid sheath that does twice the damage? Doubtful :P
Author:  Richard_Edmund [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 7:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
If your spell book is organised properly, Wizards can be untouchable by all but the most well equipped fighters. You shouldn't purely rely on evocation to win! That's why you've got a whole spell book worth of spells at your disposal.
Author:  Hudson [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 7:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
I think NWN favours casters and Amia isnt differant.

You can dispell everything a fighter with wands can slap on himself, dance around him with Gsanc and Invis. If you have a decent ac which a caster can achieve in more then one way you'll be very hard to hit while you pelt the fighter with spells.
Also, spells like grease can be a real pain for a fighter (melee char) without freedom as it slows their movement even if they make the save.
Not to mention you have haste and the fighter likely wont (atleast not for long.)

I think the only time a wizard would be in trouble is if he is caught with his/her pants down (Resting, unbuffed)

And regardless of saves, a one on a save is game over (or battle over) for the fighter. Another strenght of a wizard, you can and should target whatever save is lowest on the opponent (Might take some study to find out that weakness.) If you only use fort targetting spells you're hampering yourself because fort is a melee'ers strongest save ussually. Target reflex and will instead.

As for DC's, what would you use them for as wizard if not for awesome spells?
Author:  PrinceOfMince [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 8:11 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Hey yall,

What an interesting topic to see as I registered on the forum :)

From my experience after having played this game on various PvP servers balancing spellcasters against mundane characters is problaby one of the worst nightmares.

I agree with Hudson's post. Throughout my years I have never seen a single server where spellcasters don't absolotely destroy mundane characters if played correctly. Key being using the amazing utility that you have. From reading your post I assume that you are a Necromancer? Do you have Quicken spell? Try dispelling the mindblank followed by a quickened/hasted fear against their low wills. That's providing you start unbuffed of course with no haste. If you start buffed you shouldn't have a problem handling them.
Author:  Sphinx [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 8:27 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Without giving you any tips here, since this is something you can and should research in-character with your fellow finger-wagglers, a well-played and geared arcanist will amost invariably defeat a melee opponent. There are ways that I'm not going to divulge here that will make the entire ordeal seem like a laughable cakewalk. Of course, a skilled melee'er has ways to counteract powerful wizards, but at the end, the playing field is still certainly in favor of the spellcaster.
Author:  Murex [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 8:58 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
The solution = strategy.
Author:  Shadowfiend [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 15:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
I wouldn't say a fighter is ever stronger than a wizard or a caster. Fighters are just more ready to go at any moment. No, I think if you set your spell book up right the mage don't stand a chance. There was a time when there was way more PvP around that it is now, and the strongest wizards usually took down groups on their own. Maybe think out of the box? and when it comes to saves, they have on the contrary had a tendency to be low lately. Also the strongest spells don't have to be those that hurt the most. That said, I am speaking from a melee standpoint, never had a proper mage character
Author:  Kraniumbrud [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 15:53 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
look through the spells, read up on them, there are some that are surprisingly unused and very powerfull
Author:  MoshingChris [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Wizards trump Fighters in 9 out of 10 confrontations. The other time they have a think about it, then trump the fighter anyway. :wink:
Author:  psycho [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:20 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Quote:
How can a wizard either kill, immobilize, or decrease the AB/attack


One way to -lower- their AB technically is to -raise- your ac. Taking -shield- proficiency and using zero spell failure armor can get you a sweet 64 AC as a caster. That is, with tumble dump and armor skin though.

65 with ioun stone.

Had a spellsword with it and provided -decent- durability against melee types.

You might think one would need high str to use armor and shield, though think about it, with the freed -dex- bonuses on items, as the zero spell failure chainmail has a max of +4, you can somewhat compensate by equiping more +str gear.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
MoshingChris wrote:
Wizards trump Fighters in 9 out of 10 confrontations. The other time they have a think about it, then trump the fighter anyway. :wink:


And sorcerers beat wizards 9 out of 10 times. Now What is really the best class? :)
Author:  psycho [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:22 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Oh but I can understand his dismay, I personally SUCK in pvp with my caster sorceress against pretty much anyone.

PVM is another story altogether though.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Very_Svensk wrote:
MoshingChris wrote:
Wizards trump Fighters in 9 out of 10 confrontations. The other time they have a think about it, then trump the fighter anyway. :wink:


And sorcerers beat wizards 9 out of 10 times. Now What is really the best class? :)

Wizard, because your logic is flawed ;p
Author:  MoshingChris [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
In a straight up pissing contest Wizard beats Sorceror harder than stone beats scissors.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:55 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
No because there's a limited selection of useful offensive spells and a rare limited variety of defensive: And the sorcerer and wizards will both use the same.
Difference is that the sorcerer has 2-3 more spell uses/day per circle.

So when the wizard has used up all his spells the sorcerer still has some left. Last man/woman standing will be the sorcerer. :)
Author:  Kudark [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 16:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
I watched Tuomas (wizard) hand Krin (sorceror) his ass.
Author:  GreatPigeon [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 17:04 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Wizard > Melee

Just learn the tricks of the trade IC.
Author:  Mobile_Svensk [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 17:17 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Kudark wrote:
I watched Tuomas (wizard) hand Krin (sorceror) his ass.


So because he won once means wizards > Sorcerers? Let them repeat that battle 1000 times and see the results, Eh? :)
Author:  mirvala- [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 17:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Always be prepared to harm all saves, and have non-saveable spells ready. It's about learning what's good and what isn't IC'ly for PvP. That's part of the Wizard's RP, too. They're constant arcane learners.

Wizards are very variable, meleers have only one speciality; hitting stuff. Work around that.
Author:  Shadowfiend [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:21 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
MoshingChris wrote:
In a straight up pissing contest Wizard beats Sorceror harder than stone beats scissors.

Untrue, not long ago a wizard hellballed a group of adventurers I was a part of, so I drank a healing potion, sneaked up on the wizard and purged his invisibility, and before he knew what was going on I had knocked him down :P But yeah, Mirvala's advice is useful. And when the fight starts, get away from the fighter asap! wizard don't have a chance head on unless they have all their buffs up.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:29 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
He was talking about Wizard vs Sorc, you silly'um ;p lol
Author:  Paladin Araelin [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
I try not to think about this at all. From my perspective, many people seem to care WAY too much about builds so I figure I'm not going to have a chance unless I'm like Batman with time to plan (and only then really lucky).

I think it breaks the role play immersion if people actually spend time preparing their character builds so that they're awesome and less likely to be beaten in PvE or PvP.

No one's going to let me sit down and prepare my spellbook before a PvP encounter unless it's for a friendly sparring match, but I will potentially have to deal with PvP players who are built just for that.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Wizards have a higher skill cap than Sorcerers, in my opinion. I've loved playing Sorcerers recently, for their combat flexibility--

But as a Wizard, you could also plan a very mean lineup of offensive and defensive spells. If you play some 200 fights as a Sorcerer, you start to get an idea of what spells are used, what aren't. How many of each, etc, etc-- and as a wizard, you can then prepare that lineup and do very well. Then you also get a ton of skillpoints-- so a ranger level dump turns into sweet skills.

A sorcerer fits my playstyle more, as its more reactionary and more friendly to Counterspelling.
Author:  Paladin Araelin [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:56 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Mr. Hackums wrote:
Wizards have a higher skill cap than Sorcerers, in my opinion. I've loved playing Sorcerers recently, for their combat flexibility--

But as a Wizard, you could also plan a very mean lineup of offensive and defensive spells. If you play some 200 fights as a Sorcerer, you start to get an idea of what spells are used, what aren't. How many of each, etc, etc-- and as a wizard, you can then prepare that lineup and do very well. Then you also get a ton of skillpoints-- so a ranger level dump turns into sweet skills.

A sorcerer fits my playstyle more, as its more reactionary and more friendly to Counterspelling.


The problem with wizards is that you could have just prepared your spellbook for a particular dungeon and then suddenly have enemy characters show up and it's time to fight them. They're likely potioned up the wazoo, built like champions, and level 30 to boot. They're not going to wait 15 minutes for you to change around your spellbook for PvP and then rest to have those spells available.

Someone royally screwed up Time Stop, Tenser's Transformation, and a few other spells which would have given wizards a lot more versatility and a much better chance of survival.
Author:  serbiris [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Shadowfiend wrote:
MoshingChris wrote:
In a straight up pissing contest Wizard beats Sorceror harder than stone beats scissors.

Untrue, not long ago a wizard hellballed a group of adventurers I was a part of, so I drank a healing potion, sneaked up on the wizard and purged his invisibility, and before he knew what was going on I had knocked him down :P But yeah, Mirvala's advice is useful. And when the fight starts, get away from the fighter asap! wizard don't have a chance head on unless they have all their buffs up.


Sneaks have a moderately better chance at taking on mages than most other classes. But as a rule, mages still tend to kick their arses. Especially if it's not an ambush.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 18:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Paladin Araelin wrote:
Someone royally screwed up Time Stop, Tenser's Transformation, and a few other spells which would have given wizards a lot more versatility and a much better chance of survival.

Iz called fixing them for balance reasons :wink:
Author:  vidar999 [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Mord's/slow/run around while your summon beats on them, if they turn to fight the summon cast away.
Author:  Paladin Araelin [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Naivatkal wrote:
Paladin Araelin wrote:
Someone royally screwed up Time Stop, Tenser's Transformation, and a few other spells which would have given wizards a lot more versatility and a much better chance of survival.

Iz called fixing them for balance reasons :wink:


In a game where people try to "win" disputes between characters by having better builds than other people rather than through masterful role play interaction, the original spells would not be unbalanced at all.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:13 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Timestop is still OP in the right hands.
Author:  Paladin Araelin [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:18 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
All Time Stop does now is let the wizard get a head start on running away or get some buffs up so he can survive the running away part.

Tenser's Transformation is a joke spell now.
Author:  mirvala- [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:26 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Instead of complaining that things are "nerfed" (because lets face it, Vanilla NWN is flawed for multiplayer), find a use for them.

Time Stop always was of use for me. It made me save my allies' lives a countless times.

And Tenser's is fine as it is.
Author:  Mr. Hackums [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
*Cough* You should ask Di'rien to teach Gael sometime! I assure you, that's not the only use for Timestop.
Author:  Paladin Araelin [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Mr. Hackums wrote:
*Cough* You should ask Di'rien to teach Gael sometime! I assure you, that's not the only use for Timestop.


I don't see that person--or most of Gael's friends, for that matter--around anymore.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 19:59 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Wait. Is this actually a thread about how meleers are too tough against Wizards? And Wizards are worse than sorcs? And Tensers sucks now, too?

... I think that's it. I think we finally did it guys. We came full circle. We've gone around so far on the mobious strip of reality that we've stumbled into bizzarro Amia. It.. was a pleasure to serve with you all...

Image

No but really, if you're having trouble vs anything as a mage, there are probably resources, both your own and others, IC and OoC, that you are not using effectively. The only thing that I can for a second claim to be unduly weighted in meleers favor right now is the inordinate cheapness of UMD and certain scrolls like Mords. *1930s radio voice* For the cheap cheap price of 3k and a skill point or two, watch in amazement as our noble 8 int Orc mumbles his way through a 9th Circle abjuration, unerringly stripping the sinister archamge of six--you count em folks-six of his most powerful defenses. No chance of countermeasure folks. No this manuever is as one-sided as that time Rocky Marciano fought that baby with polio!

Oh, but dont for a second pity mages either. In the case that the autistic demihuman doesn't whore himself out to scrolls, Mestils Sheathe makes mage-melee duels a mathematical equation that basically gaurantees a meleers demise in a one-on-one, straight up fight, unless they are a crit whore and/or land a Dev. Guaranteed Mestils damage + Spells being cast damage ≠ fighter melee damage. Usually.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 20:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Paladin Araelin wrote:
All Time Stop does now is let the wizard get a head start on running away or get some buffs up so he can survive the running away part.

Yes because mages being able to chain Time Stop was perfectly fine.

Time Stop > Haste > Mord's > Time Stop > Horrid's > Horrid's > Horrid's > Time Stop > Greater Ruin > Hellball or anything similar could wipe out people. Multiple people if done right. It was horrible and unbalanced and OP.

Paladin Araelin wrote:
Tenser's Transformation is a joke spell now.

Yeah, tell my spellsword (or any spellsword) that it's a joke. Hell, tell a normal mage that can suddenly become a sword-wielding badass at any point in time that it's a joke of a spell.
Author:  Kamina [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 20:27 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
All I'm going to say is if you're having problems against melee users in PvP, you're probably going against someone in Arcane Defiance _______ with good rolls. Otherwise, you've buggered up somewhere, casters are one of the strongest roles to play on the server, whether you're a pure caster or a spellsword, Wizzuds, Sorcerers, Drooids and Clerics are extremely useful, try and find a group that's going hunting that DOESN'T want a caster.

In PvP just strip their enchantments, let your EMD summon do good DPS and chuck a greater ruin on them, then you should be able to whittle them down.

The only reason you should be losing to melee users is them catching you unbuffed or they smash back to back to back dev crits on you. Don't forget Monks are Melee, a mage's bane.
Author:  MisterLich [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 21:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
I believe monks even get an ability that just completely ignores acid sheathe - I had a monk do it to me, and all I could do was stand there and go "what the fuck is going on?" as he hit me through acid sheathe with some special ability, not taking any damage.

Well, I'll research the stuff IC, thanks everyone.
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:07 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
What are you talking about? There is no such ability given to monks, unless its something someone DC requested.

Unless youre talking about the touch attack abilities, which then yes, they do ignore it, like every other touch attack ignore them. But nothing makes a regular melee attack ignore damage shields to my knowledge.
Author:  Sphinx [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
He's obviously talking about the Axiomatic Strike. I doubt any monk in their right mind uses Eagle's Claw.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:31 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Those Monk Widgets need to be changed.
Author:  Murex [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
My mage can beat up your mage.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:40 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
MoshingChris wrote:
Those Monk Widgets need to be changed.

Yeah, they are all rather meh. Or maybe I just don't use them right.
Author:  MoshingChris [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:42 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
They shouldn't by pass damage shields, it would make sense if they used up X amount of Stunning Fist and applied a turns worth of power to the glove slot that stacked with Flame Weapon.
Author:  Naivatkal [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Oh, I see. I was thinking from the angle that they seem mostly useless unless you are a pure-WIS monk.

I didn't notice the above stuff haha. Yeah they shouldn't bypass them because it's a -touch attack- lol
Author:  Shadowfiend [ Wed, Dec 18 2013, 22:52 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Axiomatic strike is really powerful (or so I thought until I made a str based ranger (hah!)), the eagle claw is good too, but not effective unless you're wis based
Author:  MightNMagic [ Thu, Dec 19 2013, 5:56 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
How is sorcerer vs wizard even a thing? Sorcerer just enters counter mode and takes a nap til the wizard rope-a-dopes himself, then ends it.

As far as the monk vs acid sheath thing, I'd be fine with it left as is. Damage sheaths are stupid and traditionally, monk ki strikes don't even physically touch the target in media, previous editions, and alternate strike feat options.
Author:  MisterLich [ Thu, Dec 19 2013, 6:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
Sphinx wrote:
He's obviously talking about the Axiomatic Strike. I doubt any monk in their right mind uses Eagle's Claw.



Actually it was Eagle's Claw!
Author:  Dark Immolation [ Thu, Dec 19 2013, 11:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Wizard vs Melee
MightNMagic wrote:
How is sorcerer vs wizard even a thing? Sorcerer just enters counter mode and takes a nap til the wizard rope-a-dopes himself, then ends it.


If a wizard stands and feeds his entire, carefully chosen spellbook into a counterspelling sorcerer, he is doing it wrong. Scrolls exist for a reason. For arcane classes no less, contrary to popular belief and practice.
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