Pro: With a fairly large portion of inter-player disputes eliminated, the DM team won't have as many social issues to deal with, allowing them to devote more time to other pursuits.

Counterpoint: The dice rolling system allows for a hostile encounter in which not only is Roleplaying a necessity, but character statistics still matter, just not in the exact same way.

My initial reactions was *snarl/growl* even though I don't often PvP.. in fact I don't think I ever have yet on Amia. But.... this I love. Not to derail the topic but it is the vast majority of Amians that do not use their dice bag ever. For anything. Myself included most of the time because in the past when I have, it has been ignored or started a debate of an opposed roll. So yes.. give me a roleplayed out combat session anyday over click/kill. That is all for now.

MOD

My initial reactions was *snarl/growl* even though I don't often PvP.. in fact I don't think I ever have yet on Amia. But.... this I love. Not to derail the topic but it is the vast majority of Amians that do not use their dice bag ever. For anything. Myself included most of the time because in the past when I have, it has been ignored or started a debate of an opposed roll. So yes.. give me a roleplayed out combat session anyday over click/kill. That is all for now.

MOD

Because this is a thing that I just didn't imagined before Amia, and once I got the hang of it, I got to RP a lot of little battles like this, and I just love it. I just love it because we are in a RP server, where clicking over an hostile target cannot even symbolize or match the beauty over depicting a motion with a clear and specific intention, over detailing ever single little thing that makes a character unique in his own style. Not everybody are combatants, but force somebody to fight this way, and you'll see more than what his words and gestures will ever speak about themselves in something as trivial as combat may be.

Pro: Due to the lack of pvp, burdensome OOC conflicts or emotions that sometimes arise from it would not get in the way of genuine roleplay.

Con: Without the simplicity and familiarity of our current pvp system, players may feel the desire to avoid conflict. This could result in character emotions that are downplayed, forced, or ignored - rather than explored freely.

Pro: With the focus on conflict resolution by roleplay and skills, non-combat designed characters would get the chance to shine.

Pro: With pvp not an option, characters could start to think more creatively with their aggressive roleplay (grappling, slapping, shoving, etc.). This in turn could lead to more exciting or unusual roleplay. (Basically what Ice said )

Con: Due to the change in the way conflict is handled IC, new rules would need to be written to avoid griefing. (I admittedly don't know the rules for dice rolls).

Con: With the increase of aggressive roleplay in place of pvp, strict guidelines of what constitutes as graphic torture would need to be put into place.

With the lack of PvP variant, the RP combat would lose its unique flavor and become tiresome.

There doesn't seem to be much pvp going on anyways, but I don't think anything should change to hinder more pvp.

If Amia had only one race available, one alignment, one deity, and basically everyone agreed on everything, then this would be excellent. But as it stands, we -need- PvP. It will happen either way, so why not use the central system this game is designed around?

Con: I don't play online to have my pacing slowed to table-top

Never understood why some people seem to see pvp was even something to angst about in this server.

I've played servers where death by pvp meant permadeath, or where it meant losing every item you owned, or where it meant losing a huge chunk of levels (up to half).

On Amia, it's barely a speedbump. A minor nuisance. So trivial it's not even worth engaging in unless it's part of some storyline.

If Amia had only one race available, one alignment, one deity, and basically everyone agreed on everything, then this would be excellent. But as it stands, we -need- PvP. It will happen either way, so why not use the central system this game is designed around?

Edit: MOD, I remember PvPing with you! Am I the only one this whole time?

Counterpoint: Such rules may end up becoming fuzzy at best. In its essence, lethal combat IS graphic torture. It just isn't represented in as much detail when emotes aren't as necessary. Thus, such guidelines may end up as suggestions for common sense at any rate.

...I am mildly surprised that this method hasn't been discussed very much before now.

In its essence, lethal combat IS graphic torture.

You haven't been here very long, have you?
It's been over-discussed quite often. If you prefer this form of combat, then do it, no one is stopping you. Just don't get all bent out of shape when not everyone chooses to do the same.



No, it is not. Not even close. Not even in its 'essence'.
This has also been discussed in great detail, and does not need to be rehashed.

This would cause some issues with summons attacking automatically.

Counterpoint: Emotional growth is not necessarily entirely dependent on whether you can fight or kill another sentient being. While certain paths would be unavailable, character development would still be very real. In fact, I posit that more time will be spent on it than focusing on the methods and motions of the PvP system

Sidenote: I do think that those that wish to have no mechanical PvP should put a visible note in their character Bio, just so that others are aware that this player expects reason and roleplay behind any altercation. I may just do that myself.

This would cause some issues with summons attacking automatically.

In the eyes of a character there is no difference between an NPC and a character played by another person.
We should ban all combat and leveling should be based on the amount of text a person writes.

CounterCounterPoint: the server bans any form of cybering/sexting/whatever (not supporting or rebuking this behavior) one would want to call it - to maintain this ban while promoting the removal of the ban on graphic torture is simply hypocritical since what makes the difference between the two? Both form explicit content so that anyone who wishes an environment free of sex also would wish it free of torture and explicit violence.

Sidenote: Servers that allow free reign on this pretty much lose their player base (since the playerbase for such activities has been clustered in one server already)

No, it is not. Not even close. Not even in its 'essence'.
This has also been discussed in great detail, and does not need to be rehashed.

I still do not see the point of this discussion. What is wrong with the current system? It works just fine.

As for this discussion, I think my last post wasn't so clear about this. This whole world is character vs character. Some work together, others don't. Players have the option to be a LG Paladin, and a CE Necromancer. Those two characters don't go together. They work against each other. Translates to player vs player. That's just how this setting/game works.

If we're just talking about the combat system, then it works better than any alternative. People very rarely understand PnP rules whilst they're trying to 'RP fight'. Rolls like Initiative and various rules that the combat system just takes into account automatically don't really get incorporated into these RP fights. It makes sense to RP it out in some situations. In others, it's just easier to set hostile, and attack them. Both of these methods are totally acceptable. If people are aware of and follow the PvP rules, then there shouldn't really be an issue.

Kudark.. no he/she hasn't been here long and there is no need for getting 'hostile' toward the player wishing for a 'discussion'. No one is bent out of shape. You don't agree with it, fine. Then don't. I do agree that both of these combat methods are available IG already so this really is a moot point but I am still glad the topic came up because maybe it will make others realize they don't have to click/kill in every situation. Thanks for that Overneath.

Sidenote: I do think that those that wish to have no mechanical PvP should put a visible note in their character Bio, just so that others are aware that this player expects reason and roleplay behind any altercation. I may just do that myself.

I wasn't being hostile at all, and I never claimed anyone was bent out of shape.
Furthermore, I neither agreed, nor disagreed with the concept.
I happen to agree that RP'd combat would better suit an RP server.

I'd actually love to see the opposite: that all other players were red (hostile) unless you set them otherwise, or joined in a party with them.

That way each player could decide who their friends are, instead of having to decide who your enemies are, which kind of gives away your intentions. This would more realistically reflect the setting of being out in a dangerous forest/dungeon/whatever where you have no idea of the intentions of any of the beings around you. It would also reduce the advantage that melee builds have in that they can still attack with weapons when you are blue to them, but an offensive spell cast on a blue target does nothing.

I realize there are too many people here who would get their feelings hurt by being killed if this was done, but that is just unfortunate. I still can not understand how a grown adult can get upset about being killed in a game.

Con: Without pvp as an option, characters who rely solely on spellcasting would be at a major disadvantage in confrontational situations because they do not rely as much on skills or stats. Or, at the very least, there would need to be a roleplaying equivalent for spell casting, which might need DM oversight. This in turn could lead to another con: that DM oversight won't always be available - possibly limiting the roleplay.

I guess there are ways to handle that, but it wouldn't be easy.

In the eyes of a character there is no difference between an NPC and a character played by another person.
We should ban all combat and leveling should be based on the amount of text a person writes.

You are discussing PnP style on an online game.... and the biggest problem with that is the online game completely destroyed the PnP imagination. The visual aspects you can plainly see on your computer screen, leave no room for said imagination. In PnP.. it is all about DICE rolls. You take your chances. On here, you have no real consequence for dying. Yeah, you lose XP and gold... but that XP loss does not let you lose a level. You lose ten percent of your gold.. but hell... if you die, just type in party chat and have your party members come rescue you with a raise scroll while you go and make a sandwich.

Add that to the fact that so many people build power based toons, and just level them up, and -THEN- RP. Once they are bad ass, they start encounters and conflict. People who build a toon for the RP aspect have to deal with these "I wanna be an airborne ranger" bad asses that constantly come in and act like dicks... knowing full well no one can stop them. And, even on the off chance that bad ass does get a beat down... of course, it will get shrugged off, and then the person will begin to talk once more, and eventually come back. So it becomes a never ending cycle.
One of the biggest drawbacks I see to PvP, is the needing to ask permission from a player, to take the PvP to the next step. Example: A toon gets killed in PvP. The killer then cuts said dead toons heart out and tosses it into the river to float many miles down stream. Dead toon would have a harder time living without a heart. But How many people can honestly say that they would give someone permission to do something like that to their character? Of course not many would, because it cuts into the uber awesomeness that they portray. So the person gets beat, respawns or gets raised, and just continues on as if nothing bad happened. I have seen it happen repeatedly IG, and so have many others who have made OOC comments concerning that very thing.

Yes.. click kill is so much easier.. and actually seeing the things your character can do is more visually appealing, but in the end... it ruins the experience that gaming was supposed to be about.

Honestly... if casters were played correctly, they would not be walking around with summons. Magic is generally distrusted by common folk, and just because you do not see them, does not mean that common people are not traveling the roads, or tending the fields and crops of the town you just happened to walk through like a bad ass with your celestial avenger, or undead skeleton. In most cases, those common folk would grab their tools and lynch you or at the very least try to, because they would be freaked the f**k out. But it goes back to the whole lack of imagination thing.

People take what they see on their screen at face value. "I dont see commoners, so they are not really there".

I would support this. Or support an XP cap per level, and an XP auto fairy... so people would have to get to max level, then wait, instaed of hitting 30 in a week, then interacting with others.

Thought 4: Powergaming. This is going to make me instantly unpopular, but here goes. There should be much harsher penalties for high-level characters built specifically for combat in excess. There are already a few safeguards in place for this, but my thoughts edge somewhere closer to this: If the game detects that you have a certain amount of gold in your inventory, you lose items on death instead. And it starts with the best items you have. And 'death' includes PvP death. I desperately hope that it wouldn't take away PvP interaction entirely, but it would make very sure that one would have to think long and hard on the benefits or disadvantages of charging into an encounter.

I do not think it would create more micro managing for the DM's, and I will elaborate as to why.

The XP cap, and auto XP fairy I referred to is fairly simple. I will use level 10 as a starting point. level 3 through 9 are immune. But to get from level 10 to level 11 requires 10 thousand XP (45000 to 55000). Start at level 10, and give characters something like 6000 XP they can get from adventuring(XP gained from solo grinding), and maybe another category from party XP (XP gained only when in a party) of say 3000 XP. That would leave 1000 XP to get to level 11. Put in an auto fairy that gives players "X" amount of XP automatically for ever "X" amount of minutes they are in game. Example: 100 XP every ten minutes.

That means the player would spend roughly the next one hour and fourty minutes doing nothing, and most often, compel him to find some RP somewhere.

Now, for the micro managing. I do not think it would compel more on the part of the DM's, because nothing for them would change. They give out Dream coins, which can be burned for XP and gold already based on RP. So if people are needing DC's, they will RP while waiting to get to next level. Or burn pre existing DC's. Or, when a DM runs an event or something, players could get involved, and the DM's could give out XP as well as DC's as a reward for the involvement and RP. So those that worry it would slow things down, it would only do so with their leveling, unless they are really active gaining DC's or DM granted XP. Also, as the character gains levels, the XP amount gained from adventuring and party increases as well; but marginally... making it more difficult to get to those "Epic" levels

This does compell people to get involved in RP and develop a character, rather than just grinding the snot out of their time in game to gain XP and gold. People will say it is difficult enough to level... but I have seen players take their toons from brand new Level 2, to 25 in four real life days. If that is slow to you... then there is an issue somewhere to be addressed.

These are just some of my thoughts.

I haven't read through the whole post but I'd like to give a con to removing PvP completely.
What if two factions fight? are 20 people, with mages, supposed to rp their fight all at the same time? that would get messy

You would be correct about it making you unpopular (at least with me )

You say they should have harsher penalties for building for combat.... most of Amia is combat, Combat to level, combat to get money, combat in events...combat, combat, combat.

Also why because someone has more or less gold makes it any different it should not matter.... like the gold removed on respawn is kind of lame, it should be a flat rate. level 30 and die... take away 300k or something don't take away 100k from one person and 1mil from another...

I find people seem to like to treat people who work hard on increasing in power and wealth as second class citizens.... its all IC RP type stuff, some people want to be stronger, on amia its never ending impending doom from uber powered threats... and hippy tactics of flower power and hugging it out wont work, so why because a player want to do his best to combat the threats should he lose more then anyone else....

The typical argument goes that those that don't build for excessive combat feel overshadowed. All the talking and such you care to do can be null and void the instant someone good at combat punches either you or what you want to talk with in the face. Same goes for player to player interactions. Powerbuild is going to have, well, 'power' over the non powerbuild unless the latter is a part of some establishment.

I'd like to make a correction first. I didn't say 'building for combat'. I specified 'building for combat in excess. The difference between building a fighter/weaponmaster and taking feats that don't actually penalize you so that you can engage in combat and making a character that operates, both in the process of mechanical design and the actions they take, under the assumption that they will be fighting nigh-constantly. This is a Roleplay server, not an Action server. [opinion]If the counterpoint to an argument against building for combat in excess is that the server is 'mostly combat', then my opinion is that there is a larger underlying problem at work than PvP. Players should be spending at least as much time simply talking as they do fighting.[/opinion]


Note that this is not to say making a character who is good at fighting is a bad thing. A lack of strong warriors in a high-magic world would be ridiculous. Nor do I mean to disparage the way you personally play the game, or imply that you do so in a specific way that you do not. But, again, I hold that extremes tend to be less desirable than mediums.

A side note about that. "Players should be spending at least as much time simply talking as they do fighting." and "I hold that extremes tend to be less desirable than mediums" is hypocrisy. I tend to do this often, as the way I phrase opinion pieces is usually more absolute than the opinions themselves. So don't anyone shy away from notifying me if I slip up in a manner horrendous enough to cause offense.

Two more things. As to your mention of lump sums vs. scaling rates, I see the death penalties as a tax. The more money you have, the more you have to pay, even if the percentages are the same between two people. That's just how taxes work. If a lump sum were applied to level 30s who lack large amounts of money, and I'm sure they exist, they would go bankrupt quickly. Whereas a 10% strike isn't much even if you carry ten million gold, assuming your mention of losing one million wasn't hyperbole.

For discrimination...this one is trickier. I won't say I necessarily have a side, despite my stance on the nature of the server, but I've seen a fine line between those who have a focus on gaining power and those who gain power to the exclusion of all else. I don't believe anyone on this server is a part of the latter group, but to those not even close to the line, like me, the two can become virtually indistinguishable. So, actually, pixelized classism is something of a compliment, if it usually comes about by those so far below the upper echelon

Neither side is wrong or inferior. They just belong to different mindsets..

The typical argument goes that those that don't build for excessive combat feel overshadowed. All the talking and such you care to do can be null and void the instant someone good at combat punches either you or what you want to talk with in the face. Same goes for player to player interactions. Powerbuild is going to have, well, 'power' over the non powerbuild unless the latter is a part of some establishment.

Again Amia is a combat heavy server, I assume around 90% of the zones have monsters, almost all the events have had a large combat aspect, money can really only be earned by combat....

The idea of being looked down upon because one focuses on combat and earn more gold then someone else I view as very unfair

I would very much disagree with this. Yes, there are a lot of areas with monsters... but there are also a lot that do not. You say that Amia is a 'combat heavy server' when in fact I believe when the listing was still available through Gamespy, it was under "Roleplay" and not "Action" servers.

You talked about how it is disgusting to you to have 'tea party' discussion or what have you but some people like to play a more social, mundane, non-combative toon. Hells, we have deities dedicated to stuff like this. That is FR LORE.. as you put it. People get tired of discussing the next big catastrophe. Some people play toons that worship a deity like say.. Liira... who is all about happiness. Why shouldn't that person have a picnic and cloud gaze while talking about the next dress they are going to buy?

As for the idea that money can only really be earned by combat.. that is just absurd. We have a job system for two reasons... to make money/xp and to give people a path and something to RP about. One of my toons is an herbalist. I put time and effort into researching her RP, which is fun for me. Through this job she can not only harvest but actually make potions. With just harvesting alone and exhausting the resources at the Salandran temple.. I once made 18k in like 10 minutes. If that's not making money.. I don't know what is. And that is not considering the amount of coin I have made selling her potions. You know how many people prefer to spend 25k on a ten stack of heal potions as opposed to 35k or more? Everyone! So not only do I get xp from doing my job, I get DCs from roleplaying my job (which I can burn if I should need to) and I get coin from selling the stuff I make from my job. So yeah.. IMHO... that point is invalid.

Again I have no problem with people who don't want to focus on combat or enjoy more social types of RP.... all the power to them its valid RP.....TILL... they start trying to screw me over because I'm better at combat and have more money because they view my RP actions as less then theirs and should be punished more for it, then I have a problem with them.

- I still cannot see the point of this topic

I am too lazy to read the posts in this topic but I will add a few thoughts:

-The dice system doesn't cover as much as the mechanical system does. Whenever you roll with dices you don't have the modifiers against evil, against mind affecting spells and so on. Even during a DM event you would have to tell that to a DM as additions. It takes time and it can be annoying to some people at this point.

- Action is part of roleplaying...like it or not. If you want to do that with dices, then feel free but playing on Amia and rping takes a lot of time already. If you want to spend the rest of your life on the server, by using the dice system for combat, then feel free........though I would recommend get a life in the real world instead.

- Social rp is also a way to make your character realistic, create the character's personality and such. But the point of creating roleplaying games was to create something extraordinary....not creating families for imaginary figures and such (this is my personal opinion, I do not mean to offend anyone though). Personally I like this stage of upcoming Armageddon on Amia, the general tensions that is causes between various people, groups, cities, states. Confronting with others can be a lot more fun than just simply hugging eachother. (My opinion again...dun take it personally)

- The fact that Amia is combat based sometimes or there are combat based DM events is pretty similar to a PnP rp, however, if you look around in the DM events it does not apply to every event. In fact there are many that you have to solve in a non-combatant manner (magic, pulling a plug, uncovering a secret etc.........even using your character's social skills).

- I still cannot see the point of this topic

The point is to argue a silly idea forever, even when nobody really likes the idea and never will.

I just couldn't read the thread through and through due to some of the lengthier posts, so if I roll out something old, to heck with it.

Pro: Even Cordor at its prime used to be a PvP area. There were frequent hellballings, assassinations, the works, but most of all there was an insufferable amount of butthurt. People simply didn't get along for whether dying was just too humiliating to weather or whether they thought their style had been cramped by bad taste. Also, realistically, no-one can RP a guard if need be. Or well, could, but I think that for a very obvious reason of prestige, all official authority is left to the DMs' discretion. Unless of course your character happens to be a guard.

Counterpoint: I don't know if the community has matured. Personally, I feel it has and that people could find opportunities in RP were they given more responsibility and leeway to act according to common sense and mutual respect towards fellow players. For example, the former criminal activity of South Cordor, even though conspiring on the dark side of the law, offered a world of pain to people who were part of it. The fact that at times there were ongoing gang wars and a bunch of heroes trying to stop them ensued exhilaration, a sense of urgency to keep the gears shifting, and fun cat-and-mouse RP, where parts changed on the fly. Babysitting and no-PvP is simply a hindrance to a portion of spontaneous and potentially meaningful RP, and futhermore, it undermines the independence of the community. The good point is that it naturally encourages scrutiny, so the DMs have to stay on top of things in order to affect.

Whoops, lost my Pro and Con plot there. I genuinely couldn't make sense of it, though.

-The dice system doesn't cover as much as the mechanical system does. Whenever you roll with dices you don't have the modifiers against evil, against mind affecting spells and so on. Even during a DM event you would have to tell that to a DM as additions. It takes time and it can be annoying to some people at this point.

- Action is part of roleplaying...like it or not. If you want to do that with dices, then feel free but playing on Amia and rping takes a lot of time already. If you want to spend the rest of your life on the server, by using the dice system for combat, then feel free........though I would recommend get a life in the real world instead.

- Social rp is also a way to make your character realistic, create the character's personality and such. But the point of creating roleplaying games was to create something extraordinary....not creating families for imaginary figures and such (this is my personal opinion, I do not mean to offend anyone though). Personally I like this stage of upcoming Armageddon on Amia, the general tensions that is causes between various people, groups, cities, states. Confronting with others can be a lot more fun than just simply hugging eachother. (My opinion again...dun take it personally)

- The fact that Amia is combat based sometimes or there are combat based DM events is pretty similar to a PnP rp, however, if you look around in the DM events it does not apply to every event. In fact there are many that you have to solve in a non-combatant manner (magic, pulling a plug, uncovering a secret etc.........even using your character's social skills).

- I still cannot see the point of this topic

The point is to argue a silly idea forever, even when nobody really likes the idea and never will.

I spent most of this evening looking over previous threads regarding PvP and how it proceeds on the server, but a certain point of view was left out of them. And, based on my previous experience with other servers and Dungeons and Dragons in general, it was largely what I expected. Therefore, I would like to pose my main question (while fervently crossing my fingers in the hopes that my first ever thread won't be locked too soon) not as a legitimate consideration, but more as a thinking exercise. I'll follow more up on what I expect in a moment.

Again; this is, ideally, a 'list' topic. I'm grasping for a series of logical arguments resulting from both standpoints: No PvP at all OR the server as it stands today. Which means I'd really prefer that we all work in tandem to keep it civil. This is a touchy subject, I know, but I feel as though there is a lot to be learned from exploring this. I'll do my best to become directly involved with the stances raised, as well, assuming no one else raises any problems - a point isn't much of a point if there is no counterpoint, it's just a fact. And I'm looking for opinions. To demonstrate, I'll begin.

I, for one, did like the idea (regardless of feasibility) - and more importantly, I loved playing this little logic game. It was fun. Thanks, Overneath.

Sorry Overneath... this topic is one that will never be agreed upon and I can see that while many of us are supposed to be accepting of others' opinions.. those same people refuse to accept the possibility that not everyone agrees with them. At this point it is going to get flaming soon and I'd rather not be a part of it as I have nothing more to say that I haven't already and hasn't been even considered as a remote possibility by some. Thanks for the topic and giving us something to think about. I know, I for one, will be changing some of my combat tactics and asking for more dice rolls whether it is ignored or not. If such is the case.. I know who not to try that with. And maybe in the process I can teach someone that is not familiar with their dice, something. Later.

As far as I can see, using the dice is a far cry better than the mechanics... because with the mechanics, it is click and watch the action. The rolls are auto and fly by. There is no imagination. Whereas using the dice allows you to describe what your character is doing in more detail. I would love to hear about a ranger using his tumble ability to run up the side of a tree.. and grab a branch, do a double back flip to land behind the awe struck villain as opposed to merely see the ranger stand there at a distance and fire two arrows before the villain is in melee range and the ranger and him go to swords, and kill each other with predetermined moves the game mechanics have locked in.