Hey pretty people,

This is something I've always had my own thoughts and assumptions about, but about 80% of my D&D knowledge comes from Amia and the rest comes from like.. 10 or so R.A. Salvatore books I read a long time ago. After about 8 years on Amia, I feel like I should probably get some clarification here.

Do Sorcerers and Wizards cast spells the same way? I did some research on my own years ago after I decided to make Krin a 'serious' character and everything I found seemed to point to sorcerers and wizards producing spells much differently, so I kind of took that and ran with it. What I read also seemed to point toward many sorcerers being able to adapt their spells much like the Book of Transmutation allows casters to do in Amia... but without the need for a book, obviously.

Which is why having Krin ICly ask someone for a page for the Book of Transmutation was always really awkward.

It seems to me that the way Sorcerers produce their 'spells' is a lot like someone from the X-Men would do...whatever it is they do. It's not so much a 'spell' as it is a natural ability, whereas Wizards would need to name and memorize 'spells' because they study and practice to create specific magical effects.

It's always seemed strange to me that sorcerers would follow the same formula that wizards do to produce magic and also call their magic by the same names that Wizards do their prepared spells.

Does anyone know anything about this stuff?

Yeah sorcerers are a bit of a weird class. Near as I can tell they're kind of like idiot savants - you know those mentally-deficient folks who can do ridiculous sums in their head? Sorcerers are the same except it's for magic. But the thing is, you still need to do the sum - you don't have to think about it but you still have to do it. The gestures and words just come naturally to them.

Don't ask me how the Book of Transmutation comes into it though. I mean strictly speaking it doesn't even make sense for wizards. Maybe the book doesn't transmute the spell, it transmutes your brain.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Actually, the Book of Transmutation for Wizards makes perfect sense, and for Wizards who choose to actually try to learn a bit about their freaking craft I can see it being helpful. Think of a Do it Yourself type book and how it could help someone trying to do a repair or some craft.

Imagine it like making shapes out of a play-dough. Play-dough being magic. Wizards have to spend years of their life, practicing and studying, to carve just the right shapes out of the play-dough. Sorcerers have a mold, they just squeeze the dough through it. But even the sorcerers have to learn the shapes they like and get the molds somehow. Otherwise what's stopping a level 1 Sorcerer from casting all the spells in the world? That'd be fairly unbalanced.

In similar way the point behind the Book of Transmutation makes sense, sorta. Sorcerers don't control their magic to produce whatever effect they please, they struggle to learn to control it in the right way to actually make something out of it. Bit like chemistry, if you know how and what to do, you can do a lot of things. Just dump all the chemicals you have into one barrel and you'll likely have a useless clusterf*ck. What people call "spells" are basically the already-predesigned patterns or molds or "mudras" if you like, created by past mages, to make it easier to combine the right basics into one working spell. That's also why it still takes sorcerers several seconds -and- mandatory Concentration to cast these spells; they have to get it right, otherwise... well, you know how Concentration works against Attacks etc. It's the same for other distractions, like a bumpy road while casting on a cart, casting on horseback, seafaring and waves when casting on a boat etc.

Now these predesigned patterns, molds, mudras or whatnot you want to call them, require some bit of brain-function to remember, even from sorcerers. Hence their lack of study (and usual lack of intelligence) limits them from having a variety as large as that of the wizards. Sorcerers, unlike wizards, cast with their Charisma however. So they do not cast with intelligence, but the force of their personality. Their persona, the strength of it, determining whether or not they can harness and control the power dwelling within them to higher effect and efficiency. Much like controlling crowds, just more... metaphysical and mysterious. This is usually done by forcing the raw magical power into a predetermined mold commonly called "spell". These spells aren't some universal phenomenon that cannot be denied, altered etc. For example DnD rulebooks state rules and process of what is needed to create your own spell, which can then be learned by a sorcerer you teach it to, down the road. For example I once had a pnp sorcerer named Malachite Ferno, who had a spell of his own through hard study and practice, called "Lightning Circus". He summoned a whirlwind of highly-conductive daggers, striking lightning between the storm of blades. Basically just an Icestorm spell, but with Electricity and Piercing as damage types and a higher damage-cap to make it a level 7 spell.

But what's up with all the stories about sorcerers being dangerous when untrained? They can't blow things up, they don't have the levels, can they? Flavor-text and roleplay. Stories and tales where someone does something way beyond their limits in a burst of emotion are basically everywhere, this is no different. If there wasn't -something- to indicate their magic, noone would ever know they're sorcerers and they'd never learn anything.

But do Sorcerers and Wizards cast spells the same way? Basically... yes, for the most part. They both need the magic words, verbal components. They both need to wiggle their fingers just correctly, the somatic components. The main difference is that Wizards cannot "fuel" the spell by themselves, so they need Material components, such as a simple leather glove to use if they want to cast Bigby's. Sorcerers do not need these components, their innate power fuels the spell. Sorcerer doesn't have to memorize the spells every morning from the wide variety of spells he knows, he just uses the few he's bothered to learn and doesn't need to prepare a spell-component pouch properly to go along with.

At some points I may be over-simplifying this, but that is generally how I see it.

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In-Game: guano

As for this, to me it makes sense to both mages. It's a book of Transmutation, a school of magic. It teaches you how to use Transmutation magic to transmute elements of the pre-determined spells to have different effects, without blowing it all on your face because you don't know the right words or gestures.

Who it doesn't make any sense for is clerics. What does it teach them? How to ask for a different effect in their morning prayers?
"Hi, me here, Baddie McEvilguy. Listen, Bane-bro, could you by any chance give me Ice instead of Flame for my weapon today? I kinda planned on killing some Fire Giants.... What? I need a book to ask properly? What's this red tape all about?"

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In-Game: guano

I considered the idiot savant thing but I don't think it fits here. I don't know much about real mathematical or music savants, but I think I remember that they still need to learn the things they do. They're able to absorb knowledge about one or two specific subjects and then recall and use it.. I think. Sorcerers don't learn spells that way. One of the most interesting things about playing a sorcerer is the way they're prone to accidentally destroying things because their magic is tied so closely to their emotional state. Most things I've read about them point toward their magic normally manifesting during puberty and flipping their lives upside down. I've never read anything about them needing to learn or witness spells being used before they can use them.

They can still hone their talents through wizardly endeavors, though. Of course, there are severe differences between Wizards and Sorcerers, but Sorcerers still practice and hone their talents through a kind of 'experiencing' rather than learning the specific annotations, utterances, symbols, etc, etc.

I will say, however, that there's no 'one way' that a Sorcerer performs or practices magic. Even a wizard! So while we're holding this discussion, keep in mind that there are a number of right and creative answers, rather than only one.

It makes sense for wizards and clerics if you think of the book of transmutation as a collection of modifications to spell formula and prayers. Subtle changes to incantation, invoking elemental cold over a weapon rather than elemental fire. And so forth.

As for sorcerers, the pages may also provide guidance in altering what are intuitive casting techniques. A flick of the wrist this way, or that, as opposed to what is normally done. A different arcane command word spoken, and so forth. There is some room for interpretation between the various classes, and how the Book of Transmutation affects their various spells.

Sorcerers tend to be 'closer' to their magic, whereas wizards understand what they are doing on an academic level. They know the 'science' behind the magic. Though sorcerers do require material components, lest I am forgetting my PnP rules. They do not automatically have the Eschew Material Component feat.

I'm also obligated to repost this from the now lost Monolith forums. A very scientific look at the two classes methods:

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Playing:
Marcus Valis

.... That is one of the most glorious videos I have EVER seen.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

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Unless your shirt gives up on life and shreds itself in the face of your raw sex appeal -every time you buff-, I'm not interested in RPing with your sorcerer any longer.

Krin, there is a very simple answer, and then there is a lot of interpretation on top of that. Simple answer is to think of a spell as a "common magical effect", or as M:tA was always fond of calling it, a "rote" (implying the effect is so heavily practiced it is universally codified and learned by rote by many magicians).

Sorcerers are spellcasters with a natural talent. They cast magic through sheer force of will (Cha), and this manifests in a variety of ways that are unique to each spellcaster.

Wizards appear to use focused study and understanding (Int) to emulate a natural spellcaster, but the model is different for them. They must memorize key aspects of spell formulae (which may not be real formulae like we think of but anything codified) and then can cast those specific things each day. Both more and less versatile than the sorcerer.

The way in which a magician casts a spell is not merely the difference between wizards and sorcerors. It is the difference between individual casters. Each PC can have his or her own method of spellcasting, but all roads lead to the same effect or rote being achieved.

This seems to be what DnD in general shoots for.

I'd imagine the spells are equal in all aspects down to their components. The difference is what Yoss said, they don't draw upon the knowledge of the spell in the same manner.

Spells that are both arcane and divine probably differ in their components as divine spells are more prayers then verbal and somatic symbols. So True Seeing for example is the same for everyone but I imagine arcane casters create the spell themselves whilst divine casters has it deviled to them from their deity.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

I would be wary of saying the spells are exactly the same, when it comes to what you actually see IC. Empirically, yes. A Fireball is 10d6 damage to an area. But does a Fireball thrown by a Sorcerer look exactly like a Wizard's? I wouldn't think it would have to. Nor would a particular Wizard's spell have to look exactly like another wizard's.

Where Magic the Ascension calls them "rotes," I prefer to think of them as "manifestations." I guess in my own theory, they are pretty close anyway. So a Sorcerer manifesting Cone of Cold means that its ancestor or paradigm encompassed an ability that is most similar to what is academically known as Cone of Cold. But how that manifestation is triggered and its unique characteristics can hint at the source of the ability. I.E. one sorcerer finds he can breath forth a ragged torrent of ice and snow when he arches his back and imagines the taste of frozen flesh. Might have White Dragon heritage. Another sorcerer finds that by clutching a hand towards an area, he can cause a freezing wind to roar across it. Maybe something like an Ice Giant in his family tree. The manifestations are equivalent for all mechanical and measurable purposes to the spell Wizards call Cone of Cold, but even that Cone of Cold is just as likely a mimicking of some similar and interchangeable effect, variations on an expression.

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Thanks for all the great ideas, everyone!

Wizard's the guy who took piano lessons from age 6, learned the intricacies and theory behind his craft and has learned through rote memorisation some incredibly complex and beautiful pieces.

Sorceror is the guy who just picked up an electric guitar and started wailing on it until it sounded rock and f***in' roll.

All sorceresses use their nature to some extent in their casting, though the ability, manifestations, and strength differ greatly. Some learn further by experimentation, some by learning basic control techniques from more experienced sorceresses, and others by emulating existing magic once they experience it enough.

As an example, Sehaikiita's magic is not merely from her constantly high emotions. While they admittedly provide plenty of fuel, ever-rising mastery of her nature is what allows her guide the living fire down the path of her will. Having thus achieved control of its intensity and direction, she uses that ability to raise or lower the inner fire she forever glows with. This is where her 'spells' source from, that raising of her inner fire which manifests itself in various ways externally: a hand bursting into flame, which then races outward before expanding (Fireball), a 'suit' of fire erupting from all over her body to protect her (Mestil's Acid Sheath - how she learned this trick is similar to the method detailed later), or that same fire erupting outward before transmuting into red desert stone (Stoneskin series).

Other effects are more complex, such as duplicating Mage Armor: a hot wind swirling about to knock away weapons and missles, for instance. Or the haste-like effect she can manifest: an understanding of the movement of fire and heat through space is the core of this power, and she calls on the fire or echoes of fire within herself or the target to speedily guide by the target's will, fire dancing swiftly into the patterns of movement set to it and dragging the slower body along with it. This method, modified, can also serve for even greater methods of intraplanar travel as well to certain distances, such as Teleport, but I will avoid that convoluted explanation for now.

However, the previous examples are simply manifestations of her nature and natural environment, not anything she had to learn about externally. Going beyond her natural ability, if it can be called that, begins what could almost seem a wizardly training course. Utilizing dozens of Polymorph and Shapechange scrolls alongside the teachings of Transmutations masters, Esteriu studied the 'feeling' of formshifting magic, how it reshaped her to and from various forms. After she became familiar with the sensations, while keeping them in mind, she altered the course of fire as it flared up within her to match those feelings, giving it an entirely different shape to follow than her usual one and achieving a polymorphing effect of her own. Thus it is that in a manner like this, by studying the motions and feelings and patterns of magic from others or the environment, even a sorceress can 'learn' new abilities, or even alter them to suit better.

TL;DR: Boils down to the individual sorcereress. A beholder cultist I played once had discovered her hidden talent for magic from exposure to an eyeball's rays, and so manifested all her powers from her eyes, which were namely rays and cone effects as she duplicated its methods of casting in her own unique way.

Didn't fully read the above, so if it's already been said please forgive me.

But I recall reading somewhere (and do find it a fitting analogy) that the difference between wizards and sorcerers is similar to the difference between academic writers and poets; they can both produce amazing works but the one is based on logic while the other is based on impressions. So a wizard casting a spell would be similar to reciting a mathematical formula or a piece of computer code, while a sorcerer would recite a verse that invokes the impressions or emotions associated with that spell.

Overall, I feel that the difference between wizards and sorcerers lies in their approach to magic, being either cerebral/logical or evocative/emotional.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

After careful deliberation, my theory is that wizards prepare their spells in advance, whereas sorcerers cast from their limited selection spontaneously.

Seriously though, that's pretty much the bottom line. Build on that what you will.

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I can't offer any awesome thoughts as to the separation of wizards and sorcerers in terms of power and equivalents of power, but in the magocracy of Halruaa, wizards and sorcerers do coexist as the leading national trade. There are sorcerers in the council of four-hundred, with political earmarks to trying to help sorcerers in the nation integrate and prosper. There are sorcerers in the colleges, usuallyed reluctantly taking admissions (most sorcerers just go straight to work when they come of age, because they don't need to 'prove' themselves to the Netyarch in any such way, or they are guided students with perhaps wizard house masters who want them to responsibly carry their talent in the traditions of arcane learning. In a sense they are given a wool blanket thrown over them to be like the other students.

However, there are severe disadvantages to being a sorcerer in the magocracy, mostly social-cultural ones. Sorcerers are seen as the bad boys of the arcane world, in a group setting, they're the rock stars who can just easily flare their magic in the street to get a laugh out of the wizards, but the government, and especially the Mage Hounds, treat them like rowdy delinquents, gypsies, and sometimes thieves. The greater extent of the debate as to sorcerors is usually in the arena of polar thinking; conserving wizards would actually like to see them moved to their own city outside of Halaraah, the extremist view point would have the wizards even exiled from the nation entirely. Where as the liberal mindset toward sorcerers is that they should be integrated as a people and brought up as Halruaan wizards with the equal opportunities that entitles.

Sorcerers can find work in Halruaa, and those whom trudge through Halruaa's rigorous academic system are generally more wealthy than those whom go straight to work in the market halls, local businesses, and skyshipping, but they cannot really earn the prestige class of wizardry in the nation. There is an air of prejudice a sorcerer may feel in the company of many wizards. Often times sorcerers 'tone down' their magic on a day to day basis just to fit in with the society's pressure, and get along okay. And it is especially vital in the education system, where the most cases of 'blood-bullying' occurs. There is great spite in some of the sorcerer extremists toward wizards in some cases, but Halruaa being a plainly peaceful and civil nation has never had such a rebellion or public rift occur, generally all issues are brought forward intellectually and rarely violently. They are wise enough to know fighting won't win their war of total acceptance. But for the most part the Halruaan difference between wizards and sorcerers remains a first world problem.

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MuseReader: Aiseth Nosdivan- Master Enchantress