AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - What would the DC for juggling daggers be?

And what sort of check? Pure Dex? Or would it require Perform to even attempt it? Also, DCs for multiple amounts of daggers would be really appreciated (say, 3-7).

Sleight of Hand is used for jugging and that's a dex check....

But something like daggers and not balls makes me wanna say toss some concentration in there too.

Unless you are attacked or someone is trying to distract you while you juggle, the concentration check is not required. Sleight of Hand works pretty well for this. I would say DC 30 is close enough.

You can add 2-5 points of DC per dagger, if you'd like. Mostly, things like this are up to you. But it's really great that you're willing to allow yourself to fail these things. It also makes the success that much richer.

If you want to use skill checks, DC 30 is generally low (Given that we're an ECL 30 server). If you're using Ability checks, the standard maxed one-ability build will have a modifier of +14. So a 30 would be something you'd succeed about half the time.

So if you're using Dexterity, instead of Pickpocket (Which usually represents slight of hand), I would suggest making a DC 20 with added modifiers based on the number of knives.

I'd even say to allow for Perform to give something like a synergy bonus to the main roll, given what it is. Generally meaning to reduce the DC by two for every 5-10 points of Perform. Or something along those lines.

I'd argue that 30 is little because epic characters are doing it.
But normal juggling, realistically and done by mortal non-legendary characters, should be a sleight of hand check of DC 10 plus a growing modifier with each dagger. In translation;
Two daggers = 10
Three daggers = 14
Four daggers = 20
Five daggers = 28

And so on as long as it makes sense.

There are many skills that can represent Sleight of Hand. Perform if you are a bard. Pickpocket if you aren't. Even Bluff can categorize as Sleight of Hand per description.

Just because we're a level 30 server doesn't mean juggling daggers is the equivalent difficulty of running a three part marathon with one leg. :lol:

Last edited by IronAngel on Tue, Jan 20 2015, 18:10 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Eh. You shouldn't even have to roll if the performance has become routine to you. Whenever you're not being bothered, you should take 20. A Dex modifier of +14 lets you dodge bullets and do the full coreography of the Nutcracker over the course of a single backflip, so you should never fail even on a poor roll. Juggling is something a normal person can learn without much trouble, so the DC would have to be something like 23 or so. (Meaning someone with 16 Dex succeeds every time undistrubed.)

But then, you can't have a fair skill check based on ability modifiers, so the question is kind of moot.

EDIT: Scratch that! I am stupid. If you roll an ability check like Dex, you obviously don't use d20. You use a smaller die to compensate for the smaller range of values on the modifier. Roll a d4 maybe?

IRL I'd say my Dexterity is maybe a 12. I can juggle 3 knives easily. Sure, I mess up on occasion, but can keep it going for several minutes. A DC of 30? I'd fail that every time. I think Ice has the right of it, mostly. Sure, RL /= Fantasy.

Eh, scratch even my edit above. That is still way too random: it would mean a guy with 10 Str (the average) could, on a lucky roll, benchpress as much as a guy with 18 Str (the human peak condition).

What does the DMG or PHB say about ability checks? Are they rolls at all, or just flat DCs?

Quote:

Taking 20: When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).

Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties). Common “take 20” skills include Disable Device (when used to open locks), Escape Artist, and Perception (when attempting to find traps).

Taking 20 on juggling may not be the best option if you are trying to put on a good performance. People will probably laugh at you and walk out before you roll that 20.

Yossarin wrote:

Taking 20 on juggling may not be the best option if you are trying to put on a good performance. People will probably laugh at you and walk out before you roll that 20.

Yeeeah. Instead, you'd want to Take 10, which is free but instantaneous and without the whole trial-and-repeatedly-stabbing-yourself thing.

Quite!

Quote:

Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.

Unless, of course, you are trying to juggle a series of highly explosive bombs while a gang of yuan-ti abominations are assaulting you in the most exciting way you can imagine. In that case you, are under duress and taking 10 is not an option. (Unless you are cool and have the right traits or feats or class abilities that allow it!)

Hm, I see. Are you supposed to make a roll for every routine action, though? Juggling, insofar as it isn't an exciting premiere, or you're not trying to learn the number with one extra knife, will probably rather soon become routine and require no check.

As for the DC of a skill check (in the event that you use some NWN skill to represent it), some example DCs are:
Very easy (0) Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40) Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

I would say juggling daggers, depending on the number, would fall between 15-25. It is certainly not "Heroic" unless it is something you haven't ever seen in real life. Practice of a routine number, even if you intend to roll, would count as a favorable circumstance which lowers the DC.

Of course, you need to set yourself a DC that allows for meaningful chance of failure, if you specifically want add an element of uncertainty to your performance.

Just to add to the relative absurdity of this thread...

Whether or not a roll is ever necessary is chiefly at the behest of the GM, and secondarily at the behest of the balancing game mechanics (which can be dispensed with or modified by the GM). In the case of juggling, if a person has invested any ranks in Perform (Juggling), then the GM can just assume that the DC for juggling something with middling success is a DC 10, meaning that no roll is necessary because the GM can just assume that if the PC takes a 10 they succeed. I did this often as a DM on Amia, in fact; I determined a DC, looked at PCs' skills, saw skill rank investments, and often assumed a 10. If it succeeded, they succeeded without even knowing they were actually up against a challenge. If the DC was higher, I consider circumstance bonuses based upon their RP, which may add to their skills and thus still result in no need for a roll assuming a taken 10. But then in other situations there was a DC that seemed a challenge and I would ask for the roll.

Different skills and different actions have different base DCs, and those base DCs can be both tiered AND affected by situational modifiers. Since we're talking about all skills in general from the list you provided.

But when it comes to juggling? Meh. The DC for normal juggling is probably a 10, maybe a 15 if you are doing more than 3 objects, maybe DC 18 if you are doing more than 3 objects that are also sharpened or difficult to get a hold on. And then possible modifiers to that DC based upon how windy it is (+2 to the DC in a stiff breeze), whether you are wearing special juggling gloves (+1 to your skill check), if you are being sexed up by yuan-ti abominations (can't take 10), happen to be fatigued from having juggled straight for the past six hours (resulting in a -2 Str and -2 Dex, which would reduce your skill roll by 1), and gods know whatever else.

So, you are kind of on the right track there!

Yossarin wrote:

... you are trying to juggle a series of highly explosive bombs while a gang of yuan-ti abominations are assaulting you in the most exciting way you can imagine.

Thank god you're not a DM anymore...
Well, this could be fun
to watch.

I volunteer Ais for this!
No, I DARE Ais to do this!

Bring it
I have ranks in perform now.

10 dc max, with the increase of 3-5 per extra knife, just because this is high level server I dont really think that it makes sense to incapeble of relatively easy juggling feats.

Some of you people are nuts. We're talking juggling daggers here, a mundane piece of busking a carny can do. Normal folk can juggle as many as 8 or so small items with practice which means a level 1 expert with great Dex (18) could do them flaming, all the while telling jokes, while an assistant makes thing more interesting, and hecklers heckling just fine because that's the scope of what the limits of normal folk do every day.

Circuses aren't stocked with level 30 characters.

That said, Perform isn't what's used here. Perform is for expression, not technical merit. Keeping items juggled is Sleight of Hand (Pick pocket). No matter how great your smile is, it isn't keeping daggers from hitting you in the face.

There should probably be some degree of Perform involved, as just throwing stuff into the air doesn't make for a very exciting show in itself. Maybe a SoH-check to see if you drop a dagger on your face and then a Perform check to see how much showboating you can squeeze into your performance?

Of course, you could also have one character without Perform doing the juggling while a more charismatic individual stands next to him and hypes up the crowd, throws extra items into the mix, etc.

There is no SoH on Amia, so I don't know why we're having this discussion. Use whatever substitute you have ranks in - Perform, Bluff or Pick Pocket. For the former two, you can substract your Charisma modifier and add your Dex modifier, if you want.

What would the DC for juggling daggers be?

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